1 00:01:21,165 --> 00:01:23,209 People go to 2 00:01:23,292 --> 00:01:25,628 these gory horror movies to… 3 00:01:26,921 --> 00:01:30,591 to get a glimpse of what… of what they show in the movies. 4 00:01:32,426 --> 00:01:34,178 The only difference is 5 00:01:34,971 --> 00:01:36,389 I did it for real. 6 00:02:33,196 --> 00:02:35,031 So at what point in time 7 00:02:36,115 --> 00:02:39,660 did you totally give in to these feelings altogether 8 00:02:39,744 --> 00:02:41,787 and not try and change anything? 9 00:02:41,871 --> 00:02:44,248 After the Ambassador. 10 00:02:44,332 --> 00:02:47,376 That really got things in full swing. 11 00:11:07,459 --> 00:11:09,670 I always kept my feelings 12 00:11:09,753 --> 00:11:11,088 completely to myself. 13 00:11:11,714 --> 00:11:15,592 And, uh, so this is a sort of learning experience for me. 14 00:11:16,135 --> 00:11:18,137 It feels like you've been open with me. 15 00:11:18,220 --> 00:11:21,557 Mm-hmm. It gets easier as you practice. 16 00:11:24,268 --> 00:11:28,439 Can you answer for me what was it that caused you to wanna kill them? 17 00:11:29,148 --> 00:11:31,316 The underlying force, I think, 18 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,612 was obviously a warped sexual drive. 19 00:11:37,614 --> 00:11:40,451 Just a constant feeling of emptiness, 20 00:11:40,534 --> 00:11:42,327 and not being able to find 21 00:11:43,328 --> 00:11:45,706 anything in life that really gave me 22 00:11:45,789 --> 00:11:49,877 a sense of hap… happiness, peace, or fulfillment. 23 00:11:51,712 --> 00:11:54,214 I was always searching for something more. 24 00:12:09,188 --> 00:12:11,398 One night I went out, 25 00:12:11,482 --> 00:12:15,194 and I met this… I guess he's Indian. 26 00:12:15,277 --> 00:12:18,947 And he was standing there. Said he was waiting for the bus. 27 00:12:19,031 --> 00:12:20,657 Do you remember what his name was? 28 00:12:20,741 --> 00:12:22,034 No, I don't. 29 00:12:48,936 --> 00:12:52,397 - Where was Grandma? - She was upstairs, sound asleep. 30 00:12:53,065 --> 00:12:55,400 I asked him, "How late can you stay?" 31 00:12:55,484 --> 00:13:00,030 And he said, "Uh, not later than early morning." 32 00:13:00,113 --> 00:13:02,491 And it was already approaching early morning. 33 00:13:02,574 --> 00:13:03,450 Okay. 34 00:13:03,951 --> 00:13:05,994 What was going through your mind? 35 00:13:06,078 --> 00:13:07,162 I just… 36 00:13:09,706 --> 00:13:12,918 …wanted to keep him. I guess that's the best way to describe it. 37 00:13:27,891 --> 00:13:31,103 My thoughts obviously weren't, uh… 38 00:13:31,603 --> 00:13:34,356 the thoughts of a sane person at the time. 39 00:13:34,439 --> 00:13:38,110 Uh, I would've rather he'd stayed alive, 40 00:13:38,193 --> 00:13:41,697 but strangling seemed to be the way to keep him. 41 00:15:23,173 --> 00:15:25,425 This whole situation has forced me 42 00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:27,970 at how I've lived my life. 43 00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:30,472 You never saw that at the time? 44 00:15:30,555 --> 00:15:34,518 I may have seen it. I chose to ignore it, bury it, 45 00:15:35,394 --> 00:15:39,272 submerge it under the compulsion that was driving me. 46 00:17:03,607 --> 00:17:06,234 It was a morbid interest, obviously. 47 00:17:06,318 --> 00:17:08,653 All right. And what did you start with? 48 00:17:10,030 --> 00:17:12,240 Just, uh, roadkill, 49 00:17:12,324 --> 00:17:13,784 dogs, 50 00:17:13,867 --> 00:17:15,452 uh, possums. 51 00:17:24,336 --> 00:17:30,550 In ninth grade, I dissected a baby pig. 52 00:17:30,634 --> 00:17:32,969 After we were done with dissection, 53 00:17:33,053 --> 00:17:34,805 took the pig's head home 54 00:17:34,888 --> 00:17:36,598 and took the flesh off, 55 00:17:37,265 --> 00:17:40,018 and kept the skull for a while. 56 00:17:40,102 --> 00:17:41,520 Why, I don't know. 57 00:18:11,550 --> 00:18:14,261 I'm not even sure whether or not 58 00:18:14,344 --> 00:18:16,096 I was capable of a real… 59 00:18:16,930 --> 00:18:19,266 sense of love, even back then. 60 00:18:20,225 --> 00:18:21,685 I ain't sure if I am now. 61 00:18:22,269 --> 00:18:25,438 You don't know how to love. Is that what you're saying? 62 00:18:25,522 --> 00:18:26,898 I'm not sure I do, no. 63 00:18:26,982 --> 00:18:30,610 A person who can love, I don't think would do these things. 64 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:11,962 Saw this, uh, Eurasian guy 65 00:20:12,045 --> 00:20:15,090 walking down the street in the afternoon. 66 00:20:15,173 --> 00:20:19,010 Asked him if he wanted to make some money, $50. He said, "Yes." 67 00:20:19,719 --> 00:20:21,554 "For pictures." We went back. 68 00:20:23,807 --> 00:20:25,642 He stripped down to his underwear. 69 00:20:26,309 --> 00:20:28,144 I took two pictures of him, 70 00:20:28,228 --> 00:20:30,188 one on the bed and one standing up, I think. 71 00:20:31,606 --> 00:20:35,527 And I was drinking some coffee with Irish Cream Mist in it. 72 00:20:36,027 --> 00:20:39,114 And I gave him some, and it had sleeping pills in it. 73 00:20:39,698 --> 00:20:42,033 And, uh, he drank some. 74 00:20:43,034 --> 00:20:46,413 The whole time, he stayed there maybe an hour at the most. 75 00:20:47,664 --> 00:20:50,583 Said he had to be going. I paid him the $50. 76 00:20:51,543 --> 00:20:53,086 And he left. 77 00:20:56,506 --> 00:20:58,091 Why did you let him go? 78 00:20:58,883 --> 00:21:02,762 Because I had no knife. I had no intention of… of injuring him. 79 00:21:02,846 --> 00:21:05,140 I just wanted to stay with him 80 00:21:05,223 --> 00:21:07,434 and… and, uh, lay with him for a while. 81 00:24:57,622 --> 00:25:00,500 - Still living at Grandma's? - Right. 82 00:25:00,583 --> 00:25:01,417 Okay. 83 00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:11,386 Two months before I was to go into the work release center, 84 00:25:14,347 --> 00:25:16,641 it was closing time at La Cage. 85 00:25:17,141 --> 00:25:19,018 Was it one of your regular bars? 86 00:25:20,395 --> 00:25:24,148 And struck up a conversation with this, uh, Black guy. 87 00:25:25,733 --> 00:25:28,486 - What was his name? - I think his name was Tony. 88 00:25:28,570 --> 00:25:29,988 I think. 89 00:25:30,071 --> 00:25:32,615 That's what he told me his name was anyway. 90 00:25:32,699 --> 00:25:33,741 Tony. 91 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,027 He had a friend, a white man, with him. 92 00:27:33,111 --> 00:27:35,029 And his friend had a car. 93 00:27:35,738 --> 00:27:38,032 And then during the car ride, 94 00:27:38,116 --> 00:27:41,369 he's very affectionate, apparently very drunk. 95 00:27:42,453 --> 00:27:43,663 And we drove 96 00:27:45,248 --> 00:27:46,999 to 57th and Lincoln. 97 00:28:13,943 --> 00:28:16,279 When you did go out that night, though, 98 00:28:16,362 --> 00:28:19,407 and you met this guy, and you decided he seemed a nice guy. 99 00:28:19,490 --> 00:28:20,366 Hmm. 100 00:28:20,450 --> 00:28:23,661 What came into your mind that you wanted to ask him back? 101 00:28:23,745 --> 00:28:27,915 Did you become fearful in any way that it was gonna happen again? 102 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,837 Hm. No. I… I thought that it would just be a regular night. 103 00:28:33,546 --> 00:28:34,714 I brought him back. 104 00:28:34,797 --> 00:28:37,508 My judgment isn't always so good when I'm drinking, 105 00:28:37,592 --> 00:28:39,177 especially when I drink a lot. 106 00:28:48,436 --> 00:28:50,438 And we went up to the bedroom 107 00:28:50,938 --> 00:28:52,648 and laid around. 108 00:28:53,357 --> 00:28:55,276 He was making some comments 109 00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:58,196 about it getting to be early, and he'd have to leave. 110 00:28:59,864 --> 00:29:03,493 I went down and made a cup of coffee 111 00:29:03,576 --> 00:29:04,869 with the pills. 112 00:29:08,956 --> 00:29:10,208 He fell asleep, 113 00:29:11,793 --> 00:29:14,378 and that's when I strangled him. 114 00:29:30,728 --> 00:29:33,773 Did it ever get into your mind at that time 115 00:29:33,856 --> 00:29:36,943 that in fact, you had lost him rather than keeping him? 116 00:29:37,527 --> 00:29:38,486 Hmm. 117 00:29:39,362 --> 00:29:42,615 I suppose that that realization did hit me, yeah, but-- 118 00:29:42,698 --> 00:29:44,784 - When? - After they were dead. 119 00:29:44,867 --> 00:29:46,202 How did that feel? 120 00:29:46,953 --> 00:29:49,497 Unfulfilling. It felt like a waste. 121 00:29:56,462 --> 00:29:58,881 He had a nice-looking face, so I… 122 00:29:58,965 --> 00:30:01,259 With the head, I cut that off, 123 00:30:01,801 --> 00:30:04,929 put it in a large, white barrel, 124 00:30:05,012 --> 00:30:06,889 filled it up with acetone, 125 00:30:07,890 --> 00:30:09,892 and that preserved the head. 126 00:30:10,685 --> 00:30:12,311 Why did you do that this time? 127 00:30:12,395 --> 00:30:16,232 Well, just branching out into different variations. 128 00:30:52,393 --> 00:30:54,979 You kept the genitals, and you kept the head? 129 00:30:55,062 --> 00:30:55,897 Mm-hmm. 130 00:30:55,980 --> 00:30:58,399 Did you still feel as though you had your companion? 131 00:30:59,108 --> 00:31:02,069 This all is so bizarre sounding now to me. 132 00:31:06,365 --> 00:31:07,783 You think you loved Tony? 133 00:31:07,867 --> 00:31:11,996 Yeah, I could say that if I knew how to love, I would have loved him. 134 00:31:12,079 --> 00:31:15,082 It was a matter of trying to preserve what I had left of him. 135 00:31:15,166 --> 00:31:17,084 - What were you hoping for? - Um… 136 00:31:17,168 --> 00:31:20,630 I hoped he would just dry out and stay looking like he did in life, 137 00:31:20,713 --> 00:31:23,049 but it didn't work out that way. 138 00:31:23,132 --> 00:31:27,553 By that time, it was fairly obvious that it didn't look like Tony anymore. 139 00:31:27,637 --> 00:31:30,264 -It was just all shriveled up. - Okay. 140 00:31:31,807 --> 00:31:33,476 But did it still excite you? 141 00:31:37,563 --> 00:31:40,608 No, not as much. The excitement was wearing off. 142 00:36:58,717 --> 00:37:01,095 After I got out of the work release center, 143 00:37:01,178 --> 00:37:04,098 I moved out of Grandma's and into this apartment. 144 00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:08,978 While I was looking for an apartment that looked halfway decent, 145 00:37:10,229 --> 00:37:13,649 I saw the Oxford Apartments, and, uh walked in. 146 00:37:13,732 --> 00:37:16,568 They had a "for rent" sign in front. 147 00:37:16,652 --> 00:37:19,029 And, uh, I moved in 148 00:37:19,113 --> 00:37:20,906 in May of '90, I guess. 149 00:37:22,408 --> 00:37:24,952 Had the movers bring my TV, and uh… 150 00:37:25,911 --> 00:37:30,791 and a big chest that I had with all my possessions in it. 151 00:37:30,874 --> 00:37:32,501 Things you had at Grandma's house? 152 00:37:32,584 --> 00:37:36,005 Mm-hmm. In my mind, I had my own place, 153 00:37:36,088 --> 00:37:38,132 someplace nice and private 154 00:37:38,215 --> 00:37:41,010 where I could just take someone back, 155 00:37:41,093 --> 00:37:43,721 drug them, and then strangle them. 156 00:41:17,392 --> 00:41:20,604 Is this the first person you took pictures of? 157 00:41:20,687 --> 00:41:21,939 Yeah, yeah. 158 00:41:22,773 --> 00:41:26,360 The nickname was "Cash D," I think. I don't know his real name. 159 00:41:28,028 --> 00:41:31,406 What did you use to take the pictures? You had a camera? 160 00:41:32,157 --> 00:41:35,202 It was a Polaroid. A Polaroid camera. 161 00:42:14,366 --> 00:42:17,578 - How long did this last? - About an hour. 162 00:42:17,661 --> 00:42:19,788 -Of just taking photographs? - Mm-hmm. 163 00:42:54,865 --> 00:42:58,243 It just felt like a waste to me to destroy someone 164 00:42:58,327 --> 00:43:01,121 that looked so nice. 165 00:43:01,204 --> 00:43:03,582 But by that time, I had no choice. 166 00:43:03,665 --> 00:43:05,000 He was dead, 167 00:43:05,083 --> 00:43:08,253 and I had to find some way to dispose of the remains. 168 00:43:20,807 --> 00:43:22,809 A day or two later, 169 00:43:22,893 --> 00:43:27,147 I went out and bought this large, 80-gallon kettle 170 00:43:27,898 --> 00:43:30,067 from one of the restaurant's supply. 171 00:43:50,629 --> 00:43:52,881 That's why you got a huge barrel? 172 00:43:52,964 --> 00:43:54,841 So you could put the acid in for the bones? 173 00:43:55,342 --> 00:43:57,260 Yeah, that… It was 174 00:43:57,886 --> 00:43:59,680 a trash barrel. It's… 175 00:44:00,180 --> 00:44:02,933 So you put the bones in there, and it would just… 176 00:44:03,016 --> 00:44:05,102 Turn into a slush 177 00:44:05,185 --> 00:44:08,313 that then could be scooped out into the toilet 178 00:44:08,397 --> 00:44:09,564 and flushed down. 179 00:44:10,565 --> 00:44:13,110 - What did you do with the skull? - Kept that. 180 00:44:13,193 --> 00:44:15,946 - Where'd you keep it? - In the closet area. 181 00:53:34,963 --> 00:53:37,215 With the deaf-mute guy, 182 00:53:37,924 --> 00:53:40,260 I wanted to keep him with me, 183 00:53:41,219 --> 00:53:44,806 so I gave him the drink with the pills in it. 184 00:53:45,348 --> 00:53:46,849 He fell asleep, 185 00:53:46,933 --> 00:53:49,894 and I wanted to see 186 00:53:49,978 --> 00:53:52,188 if I could, uh, think of a way 187 00:53:52,272 --> 00:53:53,982 to keep him with me 188 00:53:54,065 --> 00:53:57,068 without actually, you know, killing him. 189 00:54:08,496 --> 00:54:10,290 And so, uh… 190 00:54:10,373 --> 00:54:11,708 I had a drill at home. 191 00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:13,876 And, uh… 192 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:15,670 It's gonna sound bad, 193 00:54:16,296 --> 00:54:17,171 but, uh… 194 00:54:18,047 --> 00:54:20,216 Should I say it or not? 195 00:54:21,884 --> 00:54:23,886 I took the drill while he was asleep 196 00:54:23,970 --> 00:54:27,056 and drilled a small hole in his skull, 197 00:54:27,682 --> 00:54:29,017 to see if I could, 198 00:54:30,018 --> 00:54:32,145 uh, make it so that he would, uh… 199 00:54:32,937 --> 00:54:36,149 just sorta be like, uh, in a zombie state. 200 00:55:02,091 --> 00:55:04,385 Jeff, where did you get that idea? 201 00:55:04,469 --> 00:55:07,638 Uh, it came from my own thoughts. 202 00:55:09,015 --> 00:55:10,099 Uh… 203 00:55:10,183 --> 00:55:13,728 Just in my own thinking that I thought maybe it would work, 204 00:55:13,811 --> 00:55:15,480 because I didn't wanna keep 205 00:55:16,439 --> 00:55:20,276 killing people and not have anything left except the skull.