1 00:00:09,343 --> 00:00:12,180 After the first time that Mr. Dahmer killed, 2 00:00:12,972 --> 00:00:15,391 he then went for nine years without killing. 3 00:00:16,559 --> 00:00:18,436 But then after this hiatus, 4 00:00:18,519 --> 00:00:22,982 he wakes up in the Ambassador Hotel with a dead body next to him. 5 00:00:24,901 --> 00:00:29,322 He then had what I'd refer to as a religious conversion in reverse. 6 00:00:30,281 --> 00:00:32,617 He began to think, "Maybe there's a devil." 7 00:00:32,700 --> 00:00:35,036 "Maybe it's my destiny to carry out the work of the devil." 8 00:00:36,412 --> 00:00:40,041 He began engaging in all kinds of bizarre incantations. 9 00:00:41,334 --> 00:00:44,629 He began relating to parts of movies 10 00:00:44,712 --> 00:00:48,966 that seemed to suggest there were evil forces out there. 11 00:00:49,842 --> 00:00:51,969 Return of the Jedi was one of them. 12 00:00:52,845 --> 00:00:55,098 He really identified with the Emperor. 13 00:00:55,598 --> 00:00:57,266 He wanted like that mind control. 14 00:00:58,226 --> 00:01:00,603 He had those, you know, yellow eyes. 15 00:01:01,229 --> 00:01:05,191 So Jeff found some place where he could get contacts that were yellow eyes. 16 00:01:06,442 --> 00:01:08,945 And so before he would go out at night, 17 00:01:09,028 --> 00:01:11,197 he would put the contacts in. 18 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,533 He had to get himself charged up 19 00:01:13,616 --> 00:01:15,618 by trying to emulate 20 00:01:15,701 --> 00:01:17,453 a devil or evil person 21 00:01:17,954 --> 00:01:21,082 -to fulfill his fantasies. 22 00:01:21,165 --> 00:01:23,209 People go to 23 00:01:23,292 --> 00:01:25,628 these gory horror movies to… 24 00:01:26,921 --> 00:01:30,591 to get a glimpse of what… of what they show in the movies. 25 00:01:32,426 --> 00:01:34,178 The only difference is 26 00:01:34,971 --> 00:01:36,389 I did it for real. 27 00:02:07,253 --> 00:02:10,173 My relationship with Jeff grew over time. 28 00:02:11,883 --> 00:02:13,050 As we went on, 29 00:02:13,634 --> 00:02:15,720 I got to know different facets of him. 30 00:02:17,597 --> 00:02:19,807 There was a lot of conflict within him. 31 00:02:20,975 --> 00:02:22,518 He went a very long time 32 00:02:23,102 --> 00:02:25,188 where he didn't commit any murders. 33 00:02:25,271 --> 00:02:27,565 But after he met Steven Tuomi, 34 00:02:27,648 --> 00:02:30,735 his control over the issue was gone. 35 00:02:31,235 --> 00:02:32,612 And that's a slippery slope. 36 00:02:33,196 --> 00:02:35,031 So at what point in time 37 00:02:36,115 --> 00:02:39,660 did you totally give in to these feelings altogether 38 00:02:39,744 --> 00:02:41,787 and not try and change anything? 39 00:02:41,871 --> 00:02:44,248 After the Ambassador. 40 00:02:44,332 --> 00:02:47,376 That really got things in full swing. 41 00:02:48,419 --> 00:02:51,923 Eventually, he got to a point where he went over the cliff. 42 00:02:52,006 --> 00:02:53,257 And there's no coming back. 43 00:02:54,008 --> 00:02:55,885 And four years later, 44 00:02:55,968 --> 00:02:59,555 that reckless behavior is what ultimately led to his arrest. 45 00:03:10,358 --> 00:03:14,153 The Dahmer case is something we had never seen in Milwaukee. 46 00:03:15,279 --> 00:03:20,159 It was an unreal moment in my reporting career. 47 00:03:22,203 --> 00:03:24,830 That night back in July of '91, 48 00:03:25,539 --> 00:03:27,708 on the 22nd, 49 00:03:29,961 --> 00:03:34,966 Milwaukee police officers were on their nightly tour of duty. 50 00:03:36,050 --> 00:03:38,636 They came outside of… of Dahmer's apartment 51 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:41,264 just down the street in their cruiser. 52 00:03:41,764 --> 00:03:46,644 And that's when Tracy Edwards approached them. 53 00:03:46,727 --> 00:03:50,898 Tracy Edwards was wearing boxer shorts, 54 00:03:51,607 --> 00:03:54,944 and a handcuff hanging down on his wrist. 55 00:03:56,737 --> 00:04:01,242 So the officers were talking to him, 56 00:04:01,826 --> 00:04:03,369 and he started to share 57 00:04:03,452 --> 00:04:06,080 this kind of fantastical story 58 00:04:06,163 --> 00:04:07,999 about where he had just been. 59 00:04:08,082 --> 00:04:10,418 About this weird white dude 60 00:04:10,501 --> 00:04:13,254 that he had just had contact with. 61 00:04:15,673 --> 00:04:17,925 Dahmer chose his victims 62 00:04:18,009 --> 00:04:20,219 by a certain body structure. 63 00:04:22,054 --> 00:04:24,098 He would offer them money, 64 00:04:24,181 --> 00:04:27,184 and they would let Dahmer take photos of them. 65 00:04:27,268 --> 00:04:29,603 But he'd say, "You have to come to my apartment." 66 00:04:31,439 --> 00:04:36,277 That night, Tracy Edwards agreed to come over to Dahmer's apartment. 67 00:04:39,155 --> 00:04:42,033 Tracy, first of all, he's a very nice fella, 68 00:04:42,116 --> 00:04:44,368 and he was very, very street-smart. 69 00:04:45,619 --> 00:04:48,956 And he told us about how Jeffrey was acting that night. 70 00:04:50,124 --> 00:04:52,126 And he'd suddenly realized 71 00:04:52,710 --> 00:04:55,296 that he wasn't going there for photography. 72 00:04:56,464 --> 00:04:58,674 He was going there for something worse. 73 00:04:59,842 --> 00:05:02,303 When they were in the bedroom, 74 00:05:02,887 --> 00:05:05,431 Dahmer slapped one cuff on him, 75 00:05:05,514 --> 00:05:09,894 and Edwards moved so he couldn't get the other cuff on him. 76 00:05:11,896 --> 00:05:15,232 And Jeffrey put on that Exorcist III movie. 77 00:05:15,858 --> 00:05:18,652 Dahmer was starting to get into the movie. 78 00:05:18,736 --> 00:05:21,280 So he wasn't concerned about the other cuff. 79 00:05:22,531 --> 00:05:24,617 He started this crazy motion, 80 00:05:24,700 --> 00:05:27,453 sitting and rocking back and forth in a chair, 81 00:05:27,536 --> 00:05:29,580 and making these strange noises, 82 00:05:29,663 --> 00:05:32,041 and talking like in tongues. 83 00:05:33,042 --> 00:05:36,253 Tracy started acting like they were buddies, 84 00:05:36,337 --> 00:05:39,757 'cause he knew he had to get away or he was gonna get killed. 85 00:05:42,927 --> 00:05:47,515 I told him I gotta go to the bathroom. As I was walking past the guy, I hit him. 86 00:05:47,598 --> 00:05:50,935 Then I ran for the door, and God had to be with me, right? 87 00:05:51,018 --> 00:05:53,062 'Cause he had, like, eight different locks on that, 88 00:05:53,145 --> 00:05:55,272 and I just picked the right lock out of all of them. 89 00:05:59,443 --> 00:06:02,738 Tracy flagged down a Milwaukee police squad. 90 00:06:03,989 --> 00:06:06,117 At first, he just wanted the handcuff off. 91 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,911 I don't think he wanted to give a lot of information 92 00:06:08,994 --> 00:06:11,163 as to how the handcuff was put on him. 93 00:06:13,207 --> 00:06:16,627 Because it was different handcuffs than Milwaukee police used, 94 00:06:16,710 --> 00:06:18,796 their keys actually didn't even work in it. 95 00:06:19,296 --> 00:06:22,258 So they went back to the apartment, both to get a handcuff key, 96 00:06:22,341 --> 00:06:23,968 and also to investigate. 97 00:06:29,056 --> 00:06:32,143 When Dahmer answered the door, he was intoxicated. 98 00:06:34,061 --> 00:06:35,896 He allowed the officers in. 99 00:06:37,815 --> 00:06:40,151 The officers checked the bedroom, 100 00:06:40,234 --> 00:06:42,111 found a knife under the bed 101 00:06:42,194 --> 00:06:45,322 that Dahmer threatened Tracy Edwards with. 102 00:06:46,866 --> 00:06:49,160 Tracy Edwards had made the comment 103 00:06:49,243 --> 00:06:52,580 about Dahmer saying that there was 104 00:06:53,581 --> 00:06:56,208 a head or heads in the refrigerator. 105 00:06:58,919 --> 00:07:01,005 The officer opened it 106 00:07:02,631 --> 00:07:06,177 and saw the head in the refrigerator with the head looking up, 107 00:07:06,260 --> 00:07:07,678 and he screamed. 108 00:07:07,761 --> 00:07:09,889 He literally screamed. 109 00:07:11,557 --> 00:07:15,352 He eventually retired, kept dreaming about it. 110 00:07:16,729 --> 00:07:18,063 He couldn't handle it. 111 00:07:21,942 --> 00:07:23,903 Dahmer was taken into custody. 112 00:07:24,403 --> 00:07:27,156 He was taken down to police headquarters. 113 00:07:28,282 --> 00:07:31,619 When I arrived at the scene and met the night shift lieutenant, 114 00:07:31,702 --> 00:07:35,998 Roosevelt Harrell, he was just shaking his head and gave me a briefing 115 00:07:36,081 --> 00:07:37,500 how unbelievable it was. 116 00:07:37,583 --> 00:07:41,670 It's a very, very small apartment, but a tremendous amount of evidence. 117 00:07:44,298 --> 00:07:46,425 The scene itself was gruesome. 118 00:07:47,301 --> 00:07:49,470 The tools that were at the apartment 119 00:07:49,553 --> 00:07:52,264 were hacksaws, screwdrivers, 120 00:07:52,348 --> 00:07:54,433 other tools that he would use 121 00:07:54,517 --> 00:07:57,394 while he was dissecting the victims. 122 00:08:00,648 --> 00:08:04,193 I thought it was gonna be a routine scene, and when I arrived, 123 00:08:04,276 --> 00:08:08,364 the, uh, law enforcement officer took me into Dahmer's apartment. 124 00:08:10,699 --> 00:08:14,912 Forensic pathologists are used to seeing trauma, 125 00:08:15,788 --> 00:08:17,581 but this was something different. 126 00:08:19,166 --> 00:08:23,128 Looking around the room, you could tell people had fear on their face. 127 00:08:24,088 --> 00:08:27,216 And in the years that have passed, 128 00:08:27,299 --> 00:08:29,802 I have come to believe 129 00:08:29,885 --> 00:08:32,263 that that is a time 130 00:08:32,346 --> 00:08:35,432 that I actually encountered evil. 131 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,435 And I can't describe it, 132 00:08:38,519 --> 00:08:42,439 but it is a feeling of human depravity. 133 00:08:44,149 --> 00:08:48,904 As we went through these various drawers and containers, 134 00:08:48,988 --> 00:08:52,116 my feeling is that I was not doing a crime scene, 135 00:08:52,199 --> 00:08:55,202 but I was dismantling Dahmer's museum. 136 00:08:58,038 --> 00:09:01,792 It was obvious that Dahmer had collected 137 00:09:01,875 --> 00:09:05,504 some of the body parts from the individuals that he had killed. 138 00:09:06,005 --> 00:09:09,717 Desiccated genitals, you know, human hair. 139 00:09:12,386 --> 00:09:14,722 We found plastic bags 140 00:09:14,805 --> 00:09:16,890 that contained tissue. 141 00:09:17,641 --> 00:09:19,518 I was able to identify 142 00:09:19,602 --> 00:09:21,312 a human heart, 143 00:09:21,854 --> 00:09:25,190 and other types of skeletal muscle tissue. 144 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:28,902 And then, in that bedroom, 145 00:09:28,986 --> 00:09:32,031 there was three intact skeletons 146 00:09:32,114 --> 00:09:34,074 that had been decapitated. 147 00:09:35,075 --> 00:09:37,036 And 11 human skulls. 148 00:09:38,245 --> 00:09:40,039 Then it all of a sudden hit me. 149 00:09:40,539 --> 00:09:43,709 "We have a serial killer in Milwaukee." 150 00:09:46,337 --> 00:09:48,130 It was just so extreme. 151 00:09:49,715 --> 00:09:51,592 It was almost unbelievable. 152 00:09:51,675 --> 00:09:54,762 But you knew it was believable because we had all the evidence there. 153 00:09:56,096 --> 00:09:57,931 When I was in the bedroom, 154 00:09:58,015 --> 00:10:00,684 I noticed this large, plastic blue vat. 155 00:10:01,310 --> 00:10:03,771 And as I moved it and shook it, 156 00:10:03,854 --> 00:10:06,690 there was a sloshing of liquid, 157 00:10:06,774 --> 00:10:09,234 as well as some heavy weight. 158 00:10:10,152 --> 00:10:13,906 So I asked to have the HAZMAT team come in 159 00:10:13,989 --> 00:10:16,950 and remove that in case there was any chemicals 160 00:10:17,034 --> 00:10:19,870 or other harmful materials that were there. 161 00:10:23,624 --> 00:10:25,250 Early the next morning, 162 00:10:25,334 --> 00:10:28,003 I headed to the police headquarters 163 00:10:28,754 --> 00:10:33,384 and got a rundown on what Dahmer had been saying. 164 00:10:34,802 --> 00:10:38,305 And so then we started to go through the time frame. 165 00:10:38,389 --> 00:10:41,433 That started what was many weeks, 166 00:10:41,517 --> 00:10:44,812 in fact, uh, months of investigation. 167 00:10:47,648 --> 00:10:49,566 His attorney would be there and say, 168 00:10:49,650 --> 00:10:51,443 "Jeffrey, I'm gonna advise you not to talk." 169 00:10:51,527 --> 00:10:54,321 And every day he would sign a waiver saying, "No, I wanna talk." 170 00:10:58,450 --> 00:10:59,868 We were in the jail, 171 00:11:00,536 --> 00:11:04,164 and he was just going through each of them 172 00:11:04,248 --> 00:11:06,875 as he could remember, going back in time. 173 00:11:07,459 --> 00:11:09,670 I always kept my feelings 174 00:11:09,753 --> 00:11:11,088 completely to myself. 175 00:11:11,714 --> 00:11:15,592 And, uh, so this is a sort of learning experience for me. 176 00:11:16,135 --> 00:11:18,137 It feels like you've been open with me. 177 00:11:18,220 --> 00:11:21,557 Mm-hmm. It gets easier as you practice. 178 00:11:24,268 --> 00:11:28,439 Can you answer for me what was it that caused you to wanna kill them? 179 00:11:29,148 --> 00:11:31,316 The underlying force, I think, 180 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,612 was obviously a warped sexual drive. 181 00:11:37,614 --> 00:11:40,451 Just a constant feeling of emptiness, 182 00:11:40,534 --> 00:11:42,327 and not being able to find 183 00:11:43,328 --> 00:11:45,706 anything in life that really gave me 184 00:11:45,789 --> 00:11:49,877 a sense of hap… happiness, peace, or fulfillment. 185 00:11:51,712 --> 00:11:54,214 I was always searching for something more. 186 00:12:09,188 --> 00:12:11,398 One night I went out, 187 00:12:11,482 --> 00:12:15,194 and I met this… I guess he's Indian. 188 00:12:15,277 --> 00:12:18,947 And he was standing there. Said he was waiting for the bus. 189 00:12:19,031 --> 00:12:20,657 Do you remember what his name was? 190 00:12:20,741 --> 00:12:22,034 No, I don't. 191 00:12:24,953 --> 00:12:27,289 In January of 1988, 192 00:12:27,372 --> 00:12:31,168 Jeffrey Dahmer, while living at his grandma's house, went out, 193 00:12:31,251 --> 00:12:34,797 and he met James Doxtator, who was 14. 194 00:12:35,631 --> 00:12:38,550 He was in front of a gay bar at the bus stop. 195 00:12:39,510 --> 00:12:43,555 Dahmer asked him to come back to his grandmother's house with him. 196 00:12:44,139 --> 00:12:47,684 Doxtator named his price, which was $50 for sex. 197 00:12:48,936 --> 00:12:52,397 -Where was Grandma? -She was upstairs, sound asleep. 198 00:12:53,065 --> 00:12:55,400 I asked him, "How late can you stay?" 199 00:12:55,484 --> 00:13:00,030 And he said, "Uh, not later than early morning." 200 00:13:00,113 --> 00:13:02,491 And it was already approaching early morning. 201 00:13:02,574 --> 00:13:03,450 Okay. 202 00:13:03,951 --> 00:13:05,994 What was going through your mind? 203 00:13:06,078 --> 00:13:07,162 I just… 204 00:13:09,706 --> 00:13:12,918 …wanted to keep him. I guess that's the best way to describe it. 205 00:13:14,586 --> 00:13:18,423 He would mix the potions that would render the person asleep. 206 00:13:18,507 --> 00:13:20,259 and use the sleeping pills. 207 00:13:20,342 --> 00:13:23,637 He would give them five or seven of them in a coffee drink. 208 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,557 Maybe… maybe with some alcohol put in there. 209 00:13:27,891 --> 00:13:31,103 My thoughts obviously weren't, uh… 210 00:13:31,603 --> 00:13:34,356 the thoughts of a sane person at the time. 211 00:13:34,439 --> 00:13:38,110 Uh, I would've rather he'd stayed alive, 212 00:13:38,193 --> 00:13:41,697 but strangling seemed to be the way to keep him. 213 00:13:42,364 --> 00:13:46,326 He would kill somebody. The body would be upstairs in the bedroom. 214 00:13:46,410 --> 00:13:49,454 The grandmother would wake up, and Jeffrey would come down 215 00:13:49,538 --> 00:13:51,248 and have breakfast with her. 216 00:13:51,331 --> 00:13:53,667 The body's upstairs in the bedroom. 217 00:13:53,750 --> 00:13:55,878 Jeffrey would chitchat with his grandmother 218 00:13:55,961 --> 00:13:57,588 and send her off to church. 219 00:13:59,423 --> 00:14:01,592 There's just a total detachment. 220 00:14:03,010 --> 00:14:06,221 He kept the corpse of Doxtator 221 00:14:06,305 --> 00:14:10,350 in his grandmother's fruit cellar for about a week. 222 00:14:10,434 --> 00:14:13,103 And when alone in the house 223 00:14:13,186 --> 00:14:17,024 would bring out the body and make sexual use of it. 224 00:14:18,901 --> 00:14:22,738 What corpses, mannequins, and unconscious people 225 00:14:22,821 --> 00:14:24,448 all have in common 226 00:14:24,531 --> 00:14:27,075 is they don't make demands, 227 00:14:27,159 --> 00:14:28,577 they don't complain, 228 00:14:29,202 --> 00:14:30,579 and they don't leave. 229 00:14:31,246 --> 00:14:33,332 For Dahmer, that's the big one. 230 00:14:36,126 --> 00:14:39,171 There's no person I've ever known of 231 00:14:39,254 --> 00:14:42,466 that was as lonely a human being as Jeffrey Dahmer. 232 00:14:43,926 --> 00:14:45,052 I'd say, 233 00:14:45,135 --> 00:14:47,346 "Jeffrey, do you have any friends?" 234 00:14:48,305 --> 00:14:49,139 "No." 235 00:14:49,222 --> 00:14:51,600 "Did you ever go to a movie with a guy?" 236 00:14:52,184 --> 00:14:53,018 "No." 237 00:14:53,101 --> 00:14:55,646 "Do you ever go to a party?" "No." 238 00:14:57,272 --> 00:15:01,026 He had no friends, so he wasn't talking to anybody. 239 00:15:02,903 --> 00:15:06,949 All I got was a picture of a shell of a human being. 240 00:15:08,325 --> 00:15:10,452 He had no sense about anything 241 00:15:10,535 --> 00:15:13,789 other than satisfying this desire 242 00:15:13,872 --> 00:15:17,668 to have sex with a dead or an unconscious human being. 243 00:15:23,173 --> 00:15:25,425 This whole situation has forced me 244 00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:27,970 at how I've lived my life. 245 00:15:28,470 --> 00:15:30,472 You never saw that at the time? 246 00:15:30,555 --> 00:15:34,518 I may have seen it. I chose to ignore it, bury it, 247 00:15:35,394 --> 00:15:39,272 submerge it under the compulsion that was driving me. 248 00:15:41,441 --> 00:15:44,987 Jeffrey was very intellectually curious about anatomy. 249 00:15:45,988 --> 00:15:50,492 The interest occurred very young, even when he was in third or fourth grade. 250 00:15:57,916 --> 00:16:02,504 When Jeff and I were young, we would often go hiking in the woods. 251 00:16:02,587 --> 00:16:07,759 And we'd often come across bones in the ground, 252 00:16:07,843 --> 00:16:10,470 and he just took a particular interest 253 00:16:10,554 --> 00:16:12,723 in some of the anatomy of these animals. 254 00:16:14,057 --> 00:16:18,270 He would spend time out in this little shack in the yard, 255 00:16:18,353 --> 00:16:20,605 where he collected animals. 256 00:16:21,940 --> 00:16:24,276 And that garden shed was at one point 257 00:16:24,359 --> 00:16:26,903 used to hold a bone collection. 258 00:16:27,779 --> 00:16:30,323 Squirrel bones or rabbit bones, 259 00:16:30,407 --> 00:16:33,243 or whatever you find out in the woods. 260 00:16:33,326 --> 00:16:37,080 He had it all nicely displayed on some building tables in this shed. 261 00:16:37,664 --> 00:16:40,250 He'd already cleaned off any flesh that was on them. 262 00:16:40,333 --> 00:16:43,211 Personally, it was nothing that I was interested in collecting myself. 263 00:16:43,295 --> 00:16:45,172 Jeff found it interesting. 264 00:16:45,756 --> 00:16:48,175 What he was interested in at that age 265 00:16:48,258 --> 00:16:52,012 was more along the lines of amateur taxidermy. 266 00:16:52,637 --> 00:16:54,556 But in the process of that, 267 00:16:55,223 --> 00:16:56,641 it happened to him 268 00:16:56,725 --> 00:16:59,519 that he became interested 269 00:16:59,603 --> 00:17:01,521 in the internal organs. 270 00:17:03,607 --> 00:17:06,234 It was a morbid interest, obviously. 271 00:17:06,318 --> 00:17:08,653 All right. And what did you start with? 272 00:17:10,030 --> 00:17:12,240 Just, uh, roadkill, 273 00:17:12,324 --> 00:17:13,784 dogs, 274 00:17:13,867 --> 00:17:15,452 uh, possums. 275 00:17:15,952 --> 00:17:19,039 He certainly had a fascination with cutting open the animals, 276 00:17:19,122 --> 00:17:20,999 wanting to look at the insides. 277 00:17:21,083 --> 00:17:23,585 You know, see how everything laid out. 278 00:17:24,336 --> 00:17:30,550 In ninth grade, I dissected a baby pig. 279 00:17:30,634 --> 00:17:32,969 After we were done with dissection, 280 00:17:33,053 --> 00:17:34,805 took the pig's head home 281 00:17:34,888 --> 00:17:36,598 and took the flesh off, 282 00:17:37,265 --> 00:17:40,018 and kept the skull for a while. 283 00:17:40,102 --> 00:17:41,520 Why, I don't know. 284 00:17:43,063 --> 00:17:45,982 He wouldn't kill any animals. He would find dead animals, 285 00:17:46,066 --> 00:17:47,150 and he would do it. 286 00:17:48,193 --> 00:17:50,904 This was all part of his fascination 287 00:17:50,987 --> 00:17:52,364 with a dead body. 288 00:17:55,158 --> 00:17:57,035 It's all that he was interested in. 289 00:17:57,911 --> 00:17:59,621 It became an obsession for him. 290 00:18:00,539 --> 00:18:04,334 He had this wall between himself and other people. 291 00:18:04,417 --> 00:18:06,128 No emotionality at all. 292 00:18:06,211 --> 00:18:09,881 Somebody who is unable to attach himself to other people. 293 00:18:11,550 --> 00:18:14,261 I'm not even sure whether or not 294 00:18:14,344 --> 00:18:16,096 I was capable of a real… 295 00:18:16,930 --> 00:18:19,266 sense of love, even back then. 296 00:18:20,225 --> 00:18:21,685 I ain't sure if I am now. 297 00:18:22,269 --> 00:18:25,438 You don't know how to love. Is that what you're saying? 298 00:18:25,522 --> 00:18:26,898 I'm not sure I do, no. 299 00:18:26,982 --> 00:18:30,610 A person who can love, I don't think would do these things. 300 00:18:41,705 --> 00:18:44,499 The morning after Dahmer had been arrested, 301 00:18:44,583 --> 00:18:46,168 the sun was rising, 302 00:18:46,251 --> 00:18:48,670 the nighttime police officers were heading off, 303 00:18:48,753 --> 00:18:50,839 and the daytime officers were coming on. 304 00:18:54,968 --> 00:18:58,263 The alley behind Dahmer's apartment was crowded now 305 00:18:58,346 --> 00:19:01,183 with some media people, but mostly with residents 306 00:19:01,266 --> 00:19:04,019 who'd been evacuated from Dahmer's apartment building. 307 00:19:06,479 --> 00:19:09,566 It's important for a crime reporter to have connections, 308 00:19:09,649 --> 00:19:11,943 the inside scoop in a police department. 309 00:19:12,611 --> 00:19:15,071 And one of my friends in the police department 310 00:19:15,155 --> 00:19:16,781 told me Dahmer's name. 311 00:19:17,282 --> 00:19:19,367 And that was not public at the time. 312 00:19:20,368 --> 00:19:22,913 I wanted to get away from the crime scene 313 00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:27,000 to the computer system at the district attorney's office. 314 00:19:28,418 --> 00:19:30,170 In that computer system, 315 00:19:30,253 --> 00:19:33,423 I could type in Dahmer's name and find out his history. 316 00:19:34,466 --> 00:19:37,928 And sure enough, there's a case, a felony case, of sexual assault. 317 00:19:39,471 --> 00:19:43,141 I was able to go through the records and find out he was represented 318 00:19:43,225 --> 00:19:45,894 in that case by an attorney named Gerry Boyle. 319 00:19:46,436 --> 00:19:49,439 Dahmer had been a known commodity to the police department. 320 00:19:57,948 --> 00:20:01,243 I met Dahmer for the first time in 1988. 321 00:20:02,535 --> 00:20:07,332 He had been charged with sexual misconduct with a young boy. 322 00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:11,962 Saw this, uh, Eurasian guy 323 00:20:12,045 --> 00:20:15,090 walking down the street in the afternoon. 324 00:20:15,173 --> 00:20:19,010 Asked him if he wanted to make some money, $50. He said, "Yes." 325 00:20:19,719 --> 00:20:21,554 "For pictures." We went back. 326 00:20:23,807 --> 00:20:25,642 He stripped down to his underwear. 327 00:20:26,309 --> 00:20:28,144 I took two pictures of him, 328 00:20:28,228 --> 00:20:30,188 one on the bed and one standing up, I think. 329 00:20:31,606 --> 00:20:35,527 And I was drinking some coffee with Irish Cream Mist in it. 330 00:20:36,027 --> 00:20:39,114 And I gave him some, and it had sleeping pills in it. 331 00:20:39,698 --> 00:20:42,033 And, uh, he drank some. 332 00:20:43,034 --> 00:20:46,413 The whole time, he stayed there maybe an hour at the most. 333 00:20:47,664 --> 00:20:50,583 Said he had to be going. I paid him the $50. 334 00:20:51,543 --> 00:20:53,086 And he left. 335 00:20:56,506 --> 00:20:58,091 Why did you let him go? 336 00:20:58,883 --> 00:21:02,762 Because I had no knife. I had no intention of… of injuring him. 337 00:21:02,846 --> 00:21:05,140 I just wanted to stay with him 338 00:21:05,223 --> 00:21:07,434 and… and, uh, lay with him for a while. 339 00:21:09,561 --> 00:21:14,316 He told me he liked listening to people's stomach. 340 00:21:14,399 --> 00:21:16,443 Then I was on the bed still, 341 00:21:16,526 --> 00:21:20,030 and then he came more like leaning down, and then he start… 342 00:21:20,739 --> 00:21:22,657 He put his ears to my stomach. 343 00:21:24,117 --> 00:21:25,744 The boy was able to escape. 344 00:21:25,827 --> 00:21:28,204 Got to his home in a drugged condition. 345 00:21:28,288 --> 00:21:29,998 His parents were quite concerned. 346 00:21:30,081 --> 00:21:32,334 Eventually, took him to the hospital and called the police 347 00:21:32,417 --> 00:21:34,252 because he appeared to be drugged. 348 00:21:36,755 --> 00:21:40,425 Our office prosecuted Dahmer for the boy's victimization. 349 00:21:41,384 --> 00:21:45,263 Dahmer was convicted of drugging and sexual enticement of the youngster. 350 00:21:46,348 --> 00:21:49,851 At the time, Dahmer was brought to my attention, 351 00:21:49,934 --> 00:21:52,562 I was chief psychologist 352 00:21:52,645 --> 00:21:55,190 for Department of Corrections, Milwaukee region. 353 00:21:57,317 --> 00:21:59,944 While he was awaiting sentencing, 354 00:22:00,445 --> 00:22:03,823 I said I would just do a brief evaluation 355 00:22:04,491 --> 00:22:08,161 to get a sense of the status of what we were working with. 356 00:22:09,913 --> 00:22:15,877 Jeffrey was guarded, angry, and uncooperative from the start, 357 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,962 showing up a half hour late, 358 00:22:18,046 --> 00:22:20,590 hoping that I wouldn't have waited for him. 359 00:22:21,299 --> 00:22:24,010 He would just stare at me, 360 00:22:24,094 --> 00:22:27,639 uh, with a very cold, icy, angry stare 361 00:22:27,722 --> 00:22:29,766 for the entire interview. 362 00:22:30,934 --> 00:22:34,479 But he still gave a lot of very important information, 363 00:22:34,562 --> 00:22:36,564 just based on his behavior. 364 00:22:37,857 --> 00:22:39,484 His personality pattern 365 00:22:39,567 --> 00:22:43,113 was of an individual who uses people, 366 00:22:44,030 --> 00:22:49,160 sees them as objects, does not have any empathy. 367 00:22:49,744 --> 00:22:54,374 My recommendation said that this person is too dangerous to be in the community. 368 00:22:54,457 --> 00:22:57,085 This person should be incarcerated at this point. 369 00:22:58,420 --> 00:23:02,799 The judge, in the end, listened to Jeffrey's speech, 370 00:23:02,882 --> 00:23:05,385 which was quite moving. 371 00:23:06,594 --> 00:23:10,723 He basically in a nutshell said, "Oh, this is terrible." 372 00:23:10,807 --> 00:23:14,060 "Uh, I'm sorry. It's never going to happen again." 373 00:23:15,770 --> 00:23:18,231 His sentence was a year work release. 374 00:23:20,024 --> 00:23:22,193 Work release in our state is a program 375 00:23:22,277 --> 00:23:24,529 where you can work during the day the regular work hours, 376 00:23:24,612 --> 00:23:26,781 and then you're in county jail while you're not working. 377 00:23:26,865 --> 00:23:30,368 Jeffrey Dahmer was employed at the Ambrosia chocolate factory. 378 00:23:35,206 --> 00:23:38,168 Our office took the position said he should be sentenced for six years. 379 00:23:38,251 --> 00:23:40,253 So we disagreed with the judge on that. 380 00:23:41,671 --> 00:23:45,508 I thought I was pretty aware of people that I couldn't be fooled. 381 00:23:45,592 --> 00:23:47,802 He plenty fooled me, I'll tell ya. 382 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,138 He fooled everyone. 383 00:23:51,097 --> 00:23:53,224 When we look at the Jeffrey Dahmer case, 384 00:23:53,308 --> 00:23:56,728 there are a number of failures by the system, 385 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,314 whether it's probation and parole, 386 00:23:59,397 --> 00:24:02,442 whether it's law enforcement, or whether it's the courts, 387 00:24:02,525 --> 00:24:06,112 that failed to protect the victims. 388 00:24:06,779 --> 00:24:10,241 The boy was only 13 years old when this happened. 389 00:24:11,493 --> 00:24:12,660 Thirteen years old. 390 00:24:14,162 --> 00:24:17,582 There was no way of really knowing 391 00:24:18,208 --> 00:24:21,419 that he had already murdered people. 392 00:24:23,713 --> 00:24:26,341 But when I initially heard 393 00:24:26,424 --> 00:24:28,134 what the judge had done, 394 00:24:28,635 --> 00:24:32,931 my sense was, "Oh okay. Well, we're gonna get him back." 395 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,768 "There's no way we're not gonna see him again." 396 00:24:40,438 --> 00:24:43,566 He had months between the time he was convicted, 397 00:24:43,650 --> 00:24:46,319 and the time he would start to serve his sentence. 398 00:24:46,402 --> 00:24:48,488 It was in that interval 399 00:24:48,571 --> 00:24:51,658 that he continued cruising gay bars 400 00:24:52,283 --> 00:24:56,871 and was doing one-night hookups. 401 00:24:57,622 --> 00:25:00,500 -Still living at Grandma's? -Right. 402 00:25:00,583 --> 00:25:01,417 Okay. 403 00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:11,386 Two months before I was to go into the work release center, 404 00:25:14,347 --> 00:25:16,641 it was closing time at La Cage. 405 00:25:17,141 --> 00:25:19,018 Was it one of your regular bars? 406 00:25:20,395 --> 00:25:24,148 And struck up a conversation with this, uh, Black guy. 407 00:25:25,733 --> 00:25:28,486 -What was his name? -I think his name was Tony. 408 00:25:28,570 --> 00:25:29,988 I think. 409 00:25:30,071 --> 00:25:32,615 That's what he told me his name was anyway. 410 00:25:32,699 --> 00:25:33,741 Tony. 411 00:25:40,915 --> 00:25:44,669 Tony Sears was about 23 or 24. 412 00:25:44,752 --> 00:25:46,754 Tony Sears was a model. 413 00:25:46,838 --> 00:25:48,548 He was very attractive, 414 00:25:49,132 --> 00:25:52,302 and he was always immaculately dressed. 415 00:25:52,385 --> 00:25:54,762 Had the most beautiful hair. 416 00:25:54,846 --> 00:25:57,432 Back in the day, we called them Jheri curls. 417 00:25:58,308 --> 00:26:00,685 He was always upbeat, always energetic. 418 00:26:01,728 --> 00:26:06,316 He was always out for an adventure, always wanted to do something new. 419 00:26:06,399 --> 00:26:09,444 You just never knew where your night was gonna go, 420 00:26:09,527 --> 00:26:11,821 but you knew you were gonna have a good time. 421 00:26:13,031 --> 00:26:14,449 Tony did not have a car, 422 00:26:15,033 --> 00:26:16,826 and so I would go pick him up, 423 00:26:16,909 --> 00:26:18,995 and we would go out to the bars. 424 00:26:24,208 --> 00:26:26,294 So it was a typical Saturday night. 425 00:26:26,377 --> 00:26:28,087 I picked him up at his apartment. 426 00:26:29,213 --> 00:26:31,090 And we were barhopping. 427 00:26:32,383 --> 00:26:35,803 Some point through the evening, we decided to go our separate ways. 428 00:26:36,888 --> 00:26:39,182 We had our agreement that at the end of the night, 429 00:26:39,265 --> 00:26:41,225 we're gonna meet at this spot. 430 00:26:43,019 --> 00:26:44,145 So that's what we did. 431 00:26:47,398 --> 00:26:49,359 When the end of the evening came, 432 00:26:49,442 --> 00:26:52,779 we met up back right on the corner that we always did. 433 00:26:54,739 --> 00:26:56,824 And he had this other guy with him. 434 00:26:59,077 --> 00:27:02,538 He wasn't over good-looking. I wouldn't say he was ugly. 435 00:27:02,622 --> 00:27:04,415 He had just blond hair. 436 00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:06,751 Uh, he was wearing glasses. 437 00:27:08,169 --> 00:27:11,464 We just sat on the corner and talked a bit about our evenings, 438 00:27:11,547 --> 00:27:14,717 who we bumped into, where we went. That sort of thing. 439 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,303 Tony wanted to go to breakfast 440 00:27:17,387 --> 00:27:20,765 'cause he always wanted to have fun, never wanted the night to end. 441 00:27:22,767 --> 00:27:24,602 We had a really nice breakfast, 442 00:27:24,686 --> 00:27:27,188 and then we're dropping them off. 443 00:27:27,271 --> 00:27:29,148 He said it was at his house. 444 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,027 He had a friend, a white man, with him. 445 00:27:33,111 --> 00:27:35,029 And his friend had a car. 446 00:27:35,738 --> 00:27:38,032 And then during the car ride, 447 00:27:38,116 --> 00:27:41,369 he's very affectionate, apparently very drunk. 448 00:27:42,453 --> 00:27:43,663 And we drove 449 00:27:45,248 --> 00:27:46,999 to 57th and Lincoln. 450 00:27:48,418 --> 00:27:51,504 He had me drop them off just at the corner. 451 00:27:53,381 --> 00:27:57,176 There was no specific house or anything. It was literally an intersection. 452 00:27:57,969 --> 00:28:00,638 Then they hopped out. I said goodbye to Tony 453 00:28:00,722 --> 00:28:03,307 and reminded him that if he needed a ride to call me 454 00:28:03,391 --> 00:28:05,268 before such and such a time. 455 00:28:05,351 --> 00:28:07,937 They just walked up the street, and I drove off. 456 00:28:13,943 --> 00:28:16,279 When you did go out that night, though, 457 00:28:16,362 --> 00:28:19,407 and you met this guy, and you decided he seemed a nice guy. 458 00:28:19,490 --> 00:28:20,366 Hmm. 459 00:28:20,450 --> 00:28:23,661 What came into your mind that you wanted to ask him back? 460 00:28:23,745 --> 00:28:27,915 Did you become fearful in any way that it was gonna happen again? 461 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,837 Hm. No. I… I thought that it would just be a regular night. 462 00:28:33,546 --> 00:28:34,714 I brought him back. 463 00:28:34,797 --> 00:28:37,508 My judgment isn't always so good when I'm drinking, 464 00:28:37,592 --> 00:28:39,177 especially when I drink a lot. 465 00:28:39,927 --> 00:28:43,014 Jeffrey brought Tony Sears to his grandmother's house 466 00:28:43,097 --> 00:28:45,516 in West Allis, where he was residing at the time. 467 00:28:48,436 --> 00:28:50,438 And we went up to the bedroom 468 00:28:50,938 --> 00:28:52,648 and laid around. 469 00:28:53,357 --> 00:28:55,276 He was making some comments 470 00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:58,196 about it getting to be early, and he'd have to leave. 471 00:28:59,864 --> 00:29:03,493 I went down and made a cup of coffee 472 00:29:03,576 --> 00:29:04,869 with the pills. 473 00:29:08,956 --> 00:29:10,208 He fell asleep, 474 00:29:11,793 --> 00:29:14,378 and that's when I strangled him. 475 00:29:16,547 --> 00:29:18,466 His grandmother slept through it, had no idea. 476 00:29:20,927 --> 00:29:23,513 His wanting to have a companion 477 00:29:23,596 --> 00:29:25,348 but not wanting them to leave 478 00:29:25,848 --> 00:29:28,309 was very big. It was very powerful for him. 479 00:29:30,728 --> 00:29:33,773 Did it ever get into your mind at that time 480 00:29:33,856 --> 00:29:36,943 that in fact, you had lost him rather than keeping him? 481 00:29:37,527 --> 00:29:38,486 Hmm. 482 00:29:39,362 --> 00:29:42,615 I suppose that that realization did hit me, yeah, but-- 483 00:29:42,698 --> 00:29:44,784 -When? -After they were dead. 484 00:29:44,867 --> 00:29:46,202 How did that feel? 485 00:29:46,953 --> 00:29:49,497 Unfulfilling. It felt like a waste. 486 00:29:50,915 --> 00:29:53,876 He always had a way that he found 487 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,962 to dispose of the bodies. 488 00:29:56,462 --> 00:29:58,881 He had a nice-looking face, so I… 489 00:29:58,965 --> 00:30:01,259 With the head, I cut that off, 490 00:30:01,801 --> 00:30:04,929 put it in a large, white barrel, 491 00:30:05,012 --> 00:30:06,889 filled it up with acetone, 492 00:30:07,890 --> 00:30:09,892 and that preserved the head. 493 00:30:10,685 --> 00:30:12,311 Why did you do that this time? 494 00:30:12,395 --> 00:30:16,232 Well, just branching out into different variations. 495 00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:24,448 He kept the full head, not just the skull, 496 00:30:24,532 --> 00:30:26,617 and he also kept his genitals. 497 00:30:27,326 --> 00:30:30,413 And he put them in an airtight container. 498 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,624 And he put it in his locker 499 00:30:33,708 --> 00:30:36,002 at the chocolate plant where he worked. 500 00:30:36,502 --> 00:30:37,795 Most of this time, 501 00:30:37,879 --> 00:30:40,965 Dahmer was sitting in a correctional institution, 502 00:30:41,048 --> 00:30:44,427 at least at night, and was on work release. 503 00:30:44,510 --> 00:30:47,388 This was safer than having it at Grandma's house, 504 00:30:47,471 --> 00:30:50,016 where somebody could stumble upon it. 505 00:30:52,393 --> 00:30:54,979 You kept the genitals, and you kept the head? 506 00:30:55,062 --> 00:30:55,897 Mm-hmm. 507 00:30:55,980 --> 00:30:58,399 Did you still feel as though you had your companion? 508 00:30:59,108 --> 00:31:02,069 This all is so bizarre sounding now to me. 509 00:31:06,365 --> 00:31:07,783 You think you loved Tony? 510 00:31:07,867 --> 00:31:11,996 Yeah, I could say that if I knew how to love, I would have loved him. 511 00:31:12,079 --> 00:31:15,082 It was a matter of trying to preserve what I had left of him. 512 00:31:15,166 --> 00:31:17,084 -What were you hoping for? -Um… 513 00:31:17,168 --> 00:31:20,630 I hoped he would just dry out and stay looking like he did in life, 514 00:31:20,713 --> 00:31:23,049 but it didn't work out that way. 515 00:31:23,132 --> 00:31:27,553 By that time, it was fairly obvious that it didn't look like Tony anymore. 516 00:31:27,637 --> 00:31:30,264 -It was just all shriveled up. -Okay. 517 00:31:31,807 --> 00:31:33,476 But did it still excite you? 518 00:31:37,563 --> 00:31:40,608 No, not as much. The excitement was wearing off. 519 00:31:50,409 --> 00:31:53,496 I was contacted by Tony's sister. 520 00:31:53,579 --> 00:31:56,999 They called and just asked if I'd heard anything from Tony. 521 00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:00,169 And I told them, I said, "No. We were out on Saturday." 522 00:32:00,252 --> 00:32:03,214 "I haven't heard from him." And that was kind of our conversation. 523 00:32:03,798 --> 00:32:06,133 I would say probably a day or two later, 524 00:32:06,217 --> 00:32:09,762 I got another call that they wanted to file a missing persons report. 525 00:32:11,347 --> 00:32:13,516 Because they hadn't heard anything at all. 526 00:32:17,228 --> 00:32:20,147 In the beginning, I was the… the prime suspect 527 00:32:20,231 --> 00:32:22,650 for the reason that I was the last person to see Tony alive. 528 00:32:25,194 --> 00:32:28,239 Tony's family would ask me things like, 529 00:32:28,948 --> 00:32:31,242 "Are you giving us all the details?" 530 00:32:31,325 --> 00:32:33,869 "Does this other person really exist?" 531 00:32:33,953 --> 00:32:35,871 "Or were you just with Tony?" 532 00:32:35,955 --> 00:32:39,959 It was questions like that that started to take a turn with the family. 533 00:32:42,211 --> 00:32:45,131 I also had a lot of friends that I had for quite some time 534 00:32:45,214 --> 00:32:47,341 that started thinking the same thing. 535 00:32:47,425 --> 00:32:50,344 That, you know, maybe I had done something to Tony. 536 00:32:51,470 --> 00:32:54,765 Then the police came back and started coming to visit me, 537 00:32:54,849 --> 00:32:56,684 and starting asking questions. 538 00:32:56,767 --> 00:33:01,522 More about what happened that night, where we went, where he was dropped off. 539 00:33:02,982 --> 00:33:06,068 One of the things that I was forced to do 540 00:33:06,152 --> 00:33:07,737 during the investigation 541 00:33:08,237 --> 00:33:10,823 was go with police officers 542 00:33:11,490 --> 00:33:13,242 to the different bars 543 00:33:13,325 --> 00:33:15,286 to see if I could recognize 544 00:33:15,369 --> 00:33:18,205 who this blond mystery person was. 545 00:33:20,958 --> 00:33:24,837 At that time, the relationship between the gay community and the police 546 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,464 was not the greatest at all. 547 00:33:26,547 --> 00:33:31,010 I thought for sure they would send at least plain-clothed officers. 548 00:33:31,093 --> 00:33:34,263 They were in full uniform. Guns, hats, badges. 549 00:33:34,346 --> 00:33:35,806 You know, he whole thing. 550 00:33:37,808 --> 00:33:40,269 I actually had some of the bar owners ask me, 551 00:33:40,352 --> 00:33:43,147 "You really don't need to come back here," type thing. 552 00:33:43,981 --> 00:33:47,318 The friends are all questioning what's going on and what's happening. 553 00:33:47,401 --> 00:33:50,529 So at… at some point through all that, 554 00:33:50,613 --> 00:33:54,825 um, I decided I had to kind of just get a fresh start. 555 00:33:56,452 --> 00:33:59,538 I basically left my life in Milwaukee behind 556 00:33:59,622 --> 00:34:01,332 and moved out of the city. 557 00:34:04,418 --> 00:34:06,003 I really cared for Tony. 558 00:34:07,254 --> 00:34:08,964 Tony was a great guy. 559 00:34:09,048 --> 00:34:12,593 You know, I figured he and I were gonna be friends for quite some time, 560 00:34:13,094 --> 00:34:14,095 and, um… 561 00:34:15,012 --> 00:34:16,097 I'm sorry. 562 00:34:19,308 --> 00:34:21,227 You know, there's a lot of "what-ifs." 563 00:34:25,231 --> 00:34:26,857 Just the fact that 564 00:34:27,942 --> 00:34:30,528 some of my actions that I did that evening… 565 00:34:31,237 --> 00:34:32,113 Um… 566 00:34:34,698 --> 00:34:36,492 I helped this happen to Tony. 567 00:34:37,576 --> 00:34:40,788 You know, I kinda wish… I wish could take it all back 568 00:34:40,871 --> 00:34:43,499 and make the evening end in a different way. 569 00:34:57,429 --> 00:34:59,849 While Jeff Dahmer remains in police custody, 570 00:34:59,932 --> 00:35:02,309 held on multiple homicide charges, 571 00:35:02,393 --> 00:35:05,312 the DA's office has already started its investigation 572 00:35:05,396 --> 00:35:08,983 into the formal case against the alleged murderer. 573 00:35:10,067 --> 00:35:12,736 A few days after he was arrested, 574 00:35:12,820 --> 00:35:16,740 my boss, Gerry Boyle, wanted someone to walk through the apartment. 575 00:35:16,824 --> 00:35:20,828 He just wanted to make sure that we were watching what they were doing. 576 00:35:21,871 --> 00:35:23,998 And I was nominated as such. 577 00:35:25,166 --> 00:35:28,836 Walking up to the door to his apartment 578 00:35:28,919 --> 00:35:30,421 and going inside, 579 00:35:30,504 --> 00:35:34,508 what went through my mind was, "How could anybody ever live in here?" 580 00:35:36,093 --> 00:35:39,180 The mattress was still there, sopping in blood. 581 00:35:40,264 --> 00:35:42,766 The carpeting, uh, bloodstains. 582 00:35:43,267 --> 00:35:45,019 Wall, bloodstains. 583 00:35:46,103 --> 00:35:50,524 The odor in there was a culmination of death, 584 00:35:50,608 --> 00:35:52,860 with the humidity, the blood. 585 00:35:52,943 --> 00:35:54,028 It was awful. 586 00:35:55,571 --> 00:35:57,615 I had to leave and luckily, 587 00:35:57,698 --> 00:35:59,450 at the end of the hallway 588 00:35:59,533 --> 00:36:01,869 was a fire exit with a staircase, 589 00:36:01,952 --> 00:36:04,205 so I could run out there and, um… 590 00:36:05,331 --> 00:36:07,124 the gagging turned into throwing up. 591 00:36:08,667 --> 00:36:10,169 I was the only woman. 592 00:36:10,669 --> 00:36:12,546 The male officers that were there, 593 00:36:12,630 --> 00:36:14,924 they all stood there, and they all laughed. 594 00:36:15,007 --> 00:36:17,009 They're like, "How you doing on this now?" 595 00:36:17,092 --> 00:36:19,637 "You wanted to come to a crime scene. This is what we get." 596 00:36:21,347 --> 00:36:22,681 It was, um… 597 00:36:23,432 --> 00:36:25,017 terrifying to see 598 00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:26,977 that this was real. 599 00:36:29,438 --> 00:36:30,940 Who knows? At that point, 600 00:36:31,023 --> 00:36:34,526 you know, maybe all of this was a facade and him being polite to me. 601 00:36:34,610 --> 00:36:36,612 And I started to think about that. 602 00:36:37,279 --> 00:36:39,281 What he couldn't control, 603 00:36:39,365 --> 00:36:41,242 his own little demon inside, 604 00:36:41,325 --> 00:36:43,994 is what we actually saw in his apartment. 605 00:36:58,717 --> 00:37:01,095 After I got out of the work release center, 606 00:37:01,178 --> 00:37:04,098 I moved out of Grandma's and into this apartment. 607 00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:08,978 While I was looking for an apartment that looked halfway decent, 608 00:37:10,229 --> 00:37:13,649 I saw the Oxford Apartments, and, uh walked in. 609 00:37:13,732 --> 00:37:16,568 They had a "for rent" sign in front. 610 00:37:16,652 --> 00:37:19,029 And, uh, I moved in 611 00:37:19,113 --> 00:37:20,906 in May of '90, I guess. 612 00:37:22,408 --> 00:37:24,952 Had the movers bring my TV, and uh… 613 00:37:25,911 --> 00:37:30,791 and a big chest that I had with all my possessions in it. 614 00:37:30,874 --> 00:37:32,501 Things you had at Grandma's house? 615 00:37:32,584 --> 00:37:36,005 Mm-hmm. In my mind, I had my own place, 616 00:37:36,088 --> 00:37:38,132 someplace nice and private 617 00:37:38,215 --> 00:37:41,010 where I could just take someone back, 618 00:37:41,093 --> 00:37:43,721 drug them, and then strangle them. 619 00:37:52,229 --> 00:37:55,441 Milwaukee has always been one of those types of cities 620 00:37:55,524 --> 00:37:57,568 where it's very hypersegregated. 621 00:37:59,695 --> 00:38:02,156 Blacks lived on one side of the town, 622 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,617 while whites lived on the other side of the town and in the suburbs. 623 00:38:07,036 --> 00:38:11,415 And Dahmer lived in this apartment complex called the Oxford Apartments, 624 00:38:12,541 --> 00:38:16,587 but it was a lot of African Americans who lived in that building. 625 00:38:22,593 --> 00:38:24,845 The first time that I met Jeff 626 00:38:26,221 --> 00:38:30,309 we had been living there for maybe… maybe two weeks or so. 627 00:38:31,602 --> 00:38:34,313 And he made it known to me 628 00:38:34,396 --> 00:38:37,316 that he had just moved from West Allis, 629 00:38:37,399 --> 00:38:40,110 and that he had broken up with his girlfriend. 630 00:38:41,737 --> 00:38:43,447 And I took a liking to him 631 00:38:44,031 --> 00:38:46,325 because he looked so clean-cut. 632 00:38:47,076 --> 00:38:48,577 He looked so mild. 633 00:38:49,578 --> 00:38:51,914 He looked like a young Clark Kent. 634 00:38:53,165 --> 00:38:56,919 He was the only single white male in the building. 635 00:38:58,670 --> 00:39:02,341 I never thought it to be strange or weird 636 00:39:03,050 --> 00:39:04,426 that he was there. 637 00:39:04,510 --> 00:39:06,720 To me, he was just an average guy 638 00:39:07,388 --> 00:39:09,264 trying to keep his head above water. 639 00:39:10,974 --> 00:39:12,393 There was one time 640 00:39:13,102 --> 00:39:15,396 when I did try to introduce him 641 00:39:15,479 --> 00:39:16,688 to a lady. 642 00:39:18,357 --> 00:39:21,735 She lived downstairs, and she had a crush on Jeff. 643 00:39:23,028 --> 00:39:24,905 And so she told me, she said, 644 00:39:24,988 --> 00:39:27,658 "Why don't you see if your neighbor across the hall 645 00:39:27,741 --> 00:39:29,827 wanna come over and play cards with us?" 646 00:39:31,662 --> 00:39:33,539 So I went and knocked on his door. 647 00:39:34,498 --> 00:39:38,544 I said, "I'm over here playing cards. Hey, man, I'm getting my butt kicked." 648 00:39:39,211 --> 00:39:40,712 "You know, by these women." 649 00:39:40,796 --> 00:39:44,174 "I could really use another guy who would come and help me." 650 00:39:45,634 --> 00:39:48,720 And he straight out told me that he didn't wanna come over. 651 00:39:49,471 --> 00:39:53,225 So I said, "Well, one of the women there, she kind of like you." 652 00:39:53,308 --> 00:39:56,061 "And it'd be a chance for you guys to talk." 653 00:39:57,771 --> 00:40:00,816 He flat-out told me that he was not interested 654 00:40:00,899 --> 00:40:02,776 in talking to her. 655 00:40:02,860 --> 00:40:06,947 I thought, "Well, hey. This guy must really, really be stuck on 656 00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:09,700 that other woman in West Allis." 657 00:40:11,994 --> 00:40:14,913 It didn't take very long for me to notice 658 00:40:14,997 --> 00:40:16,832 that Jeff was a loner, 659 00:40:16,915 --> 00:40:19,168 and that he kept to himself. 660 00:40:19,251 --> 00:40:22,796 And he… he wasn't a party type guy. 661 00:40:23,630 --> 00:40:25,591 -You and Timmy. -That's right. 662 00:40:25,674 --> 00:40:27,176 -And who is this? -Jeff. 663 00:40:27,259 --> 00:40:28,635 -That's cousin Jeff. -Hey. 664 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:29,553 Yes. 665 00:40:31,722 --> 00:40:33,974 Jeffrey was able to fool people 666 00:40:34,057 --> 00:40:36,685 in situations where it was critically important to do that. 667 00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:43,692 Looks like a bunch of satisfied people sitting around here. 668 00:40:44,610 --> 00:40:46,987 Even with Grandma or his dad. 669 00:40:47,571 --> 00:40:50,741 Of course, you woke up at what, eight this morning? 670 00:40:50,824 --> 00:40:55,621 Then you… you cleaned up your apartment so you could show us what it looks like. 671 00:40:55,704 --> 00:40:58,165 Yeah, I want you to come over if you feel like it. 672 00:40:58,248 --> 00:41:01,877 I haven't done any dusting or vacuuming. I do that on Sundays. 673 00:41:03,212 --> 00:41:06,965 Dahmer could be an engaging person. He enticed many people into his apartment. 674 00:41:09,343 --> 00:41:10,761 But they had no idea 675 00:41:10,844 --> 00:41:14,139 they were walking into a viper's nest when they went to his apartment. 676 00:41:17,392 --> 00:41:20,604 Is this the first person you took pictures of? 677 00:41:20,687 --> 00:41:21,939 Yeah, yeah. 678 00:41:22,773 --> 00:41:26,360 The nickname was "Cash D," I think. I don't know his real name. 679 00:41:28,028 --> 00:41:31,406 What did you use to take the pictures? You had a camera? 680 00:41:32,157 --> 00:41:35,202 It was a Polaroid. A Polaroid camera. 681 00:41:36,745 --> 00:41:38,455 In Dahmer's apartment, 682 00:41:38,539 --> 00:41:41,333 there were a number of albums that were present, 683 00:41:41,416 --> 00:41:46,380 and these were a series of organized Polaroid photographs 684 00:41:46,463 --> 00:41:49,633 that depicted Dahmer's previous victims 685 00:41:50,175 --> 00:41:53,595 before, during, and after dissection. 686 00:41:54,888 --> 00:41:57,391 Jeffrey took the photos 687 00:41:57,474 --> 00:42:00,894 of individuals that he favored the most. 688 00:42:01,478 --> 00:42:05,274 He put them in different poses because it would show the physique. 689 00:42:05,357 --> 00:42:08,527 There were various parts of various individuals 690 00:42:08,610 --> 00:42:12,948 that he favored more than other ones, and so he took photos of it. 691 00:42:14,366 --> 00:42:17,578 -How long did this last? -About an hour. 692 00:42:17,661 --> 00:42:19,788 - Of just taking photographs? -Mm-hmm. 693 00:42:21,206 --> 00:42:23,792 When I saw the Polaroids that Jeffrey took, 694 00:42:23,875 --> 00:42:25,168 I… I was horrified. 695 00:42:25,877 --> 00:42:28,088 Some of them were very intense. 696 00:42:29,047 --> 00:42:31,800 To see people cut in real life, 697 00:42:31,883 --> 00:42:36,680 it takes on a whole different, uh, scope, a whole different level. 698 00:42:38,181 --> 00:42:39,683 I had nightmares with it. 699 00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:43,812 But I wanted to stay professional. 700 00:42:46,231 --> 00:42:49,985 I… I was just thinking, you know, "How am I gonna get through this?" 701 00:42:51,111 --> 00:42:52,946 "I don't have anybody to talk to about it." 702 00:42:54,865 --> 00:42:58,243 It just felt like a waste to me to destroy someone 703 00:42:58,327 --> 00:43:01,121 that looked so nice. 704 00:43:01,204 --> 00:43:03,582 But by that time, I had no choice. 705 00:43:03,665 --> 00:43:05,000 He was dead, 706 00:43:05,083 --> 00:43:08,253 and I had to find some way to dispose of the remains. 707 00:43:10,339 --> 00:43:14,926 He now realized he had a different problem than at he had at his grandmother's house 708 00:43:15,010 --> 00:43:17,429 because he wasn't gonna be able to use a sledgehammer 709 00:43:17,512 --> 00:43:19,765 to break up bones in an apartment. 710 00:43:20,807 --> 00:43:22,809 A day or two later, 711 00:43:22,893 --> 00:43:27,147 I went out and bought this large, 80-gallon kettle 712 00:43:27,898 --> 00:43:30,067 from one of the restaurant's supply. 713 00:43:31,151 --> 00:43:32,986 He could then boil 714 00:43:33,070 --> 00:43:35,447 what was left of the body. 715 00:43:36,615 --> 00:43:40,744 And this began his more sophisticated production 716 00:43:40,827 --> 00:43:42,496 of body disposal. 717 00:43:44,373 --> 00:43:46,917 I mean, makes you sick even talking about it, 718 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,087 but he'd get rid of the… the bones in acid. 719 00:43:50,629 --> 00:43:52,881 That's why you got a huge barrel? 720 00:43:52,964 --> 00:43:54,841 So you could put the acid in for the bones? 721 00:43:55,342 --> 00:43:57,260 Yeah, that… It was 722 00:43:57,886 --> 00:43:59,680 a trash barrel. It's… 723 00:44:00,180 --> 00:44:02,933 So you put the bones in there, and it would just… 724 00:44:03,016 --> 00:44:05,102 Turn into a slush 725 00:44:05,185 --> 00:44:08,313 that then could be scooped out into the toilet 726 00:44:08,397 --> 00:44:09,564 and flushed down. 727 00:44:10,565 --> 00:44:13,110 -What did you do with the skull? -Kept that. 728 00:44:13,193 --> 00:44:15,946 -Where'd you keep it? -In the closet area. 729 00:44:21,493 --> 00:44:25,539 Jeff became more than just the neighbor across the hall. 730 00:44:28,542 --> 00:44:31,795 I liked him because I felt that he had a soft heart. 731 00:44:32,796 --> 00:44:34,506 There was one time 732 00:44:34,589 --> 00:44:37,634 when my sister was getting married. 733 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,304 I didn't have any money to get a gift for her. 734 00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:44,391 I knocked on Jeff's door, 735 00:44:45,058 --> 00:44:49,271 and I told him, "You know, I'm getting ready to go to my sister's wedding." 736 00:44:49,354 --> 00:44:53,191 And I said, "Is it possible you can loan me some money to get her a gift?" 737 00:44:55,277 --> 00:44:56,820 He gave me $60. 738 00:44:57,362 --> 00:44:59,531 Told me, "Don't even worry about it." 739 00:45:00,407 --> 00:45:02,993 He said, "Get your sister something nice." 740 00:45:03,910 --> 00:45:06,371 I knew nothing about his past. 741 00:45:07,581 --> 00:45:10,625 How many people know what their neighbor does 742 00:45:10,709 --> 00:45:13,295 once they go inside and close their door? 743 00:45:13,795 --> 00:45:16,840 You can only go by 744 00:45:16,923 --> 00:45:18,341 what you see, 745 00:45:18,967 --> 00:45:22,304 and what you hear from out of their mouth. 746 00:45:33,857 --> 00:45:37,402 Jeff, what do we know about the suspect? He's 31 years old? 747 00:45:37,486 --> 00:45:38,737 He's 31 years old. 748 00:45:38,820 --> 00:45:41,698 Neighbors talked briefly about him to me during the night. 749 00:45:41,782 --> 00:45:45,327 They said they didn't really know him. They described him as strange, a loner, 750 00:45:45,410 --> 00:45:48,288 uh, but they did say he had a job and worked every day. 751 00:45:50,540 --> 00:45:52,334 The night of his arrest, 752 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,671 we had no idea of why they were there. 753 00:45:57,506 --> 00:46:00,175 And when I asked one of the officers, 754 00:46:00,884 --> 00:46:02,219 "Is Jeff okay?" 755 00:46:02,844 --> 00:46:05,138 He said, "Yeah, that fucker's okay." 756 00:46:08,350 --> 00:46:09,851 I was standing there 757 00:46:10,936 --> 00:46:13,730 watching them take the body parts 758 00:46:13,814 --> 00:46:16,191 that were in little small boxes. 759 00:46:16,775 --> 00:46:19,611 A little bit bigger than a shoe box, all brown. 760 00:46:19,694 --> 00:46:22,447 Taking the boxes out two and three at a time. 761 00:46:22,531 --> 00:46:24,825 Two and three at a time, taking the boxes out. 762 00:46:26,368 --> 00:46:29,412 Turns out that Jeff 763 00:46:29,496 --> 00:46:31,998 is actually Jeffrey Dahmer, 764 00:46:32,082 --> 00:46:34,292 who has murdered men 765 00:46:34,376 --> 00:46:36,795 inside apartment 213. 766 00:46:39,130 --> 00:46:42,342 The parts, box after box of dismembered human remains, 767 00:46:42,425 --> 00:46:43,426 were taken away 768 00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:46,137 Now the job is to identify the victims. 769 00:46:46,221 --> 00:46:48,765 At this time, we have no identifications 770 00:46:48,849 --> 00:46:52,227 on any of the, uh, specimens that we have recovered. 771 00:46:54,271 --> 00:46:57,816 At that time, there was no such thing as DNA 772 00:46:57,899 --> 00:47:01,736 that was accessible to a routine, regular medical examiner. 773 00:47:02,487 --> 00:47:05,740 So we were using dental analysis, 774 00:47:05,824 --> 00:47:07,576 and fingerprints, 775 00:47:07,659 --> 00:47:09,578 and personal effects, 776 00:47:09,661 --> 00:47:13,415 uh, tattoos, surgical scars, etc. 777 00:47:13,498 --> 00:47:16,126 in our trying to identify these victims. 778 00:47:19,129 --> 00:47:21,631 Putting the skeletons back together 779 00:47:21,715 --> 00:47:23,717 was like putting a puzzle together. 780 00:47:25,594 --> 00:47:29,264 Forensic anthropologists could tell us age, race, sex, 781 00:47:29,347 --> 00:47:33,476 and also help us interpret some of the injuries that we were seeing. 782 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,103 Once investigators here 783 00:47:35,186 --> 00:47:38,815 are able to put together physical descriptions of the victims, 784 00:47:38,899 --> 00:47:41,818 that information will be fed into a computer 785 00:47:41,902 --> 00:47:46,031 and cross-referenced with the descriptions of missing persons around the country. 786 00:47:46,948 --> 00:47:49,451 Now there had been reports 787 00:47:49,534 --> 00:47:52,329 of a number of missing persons 788 00:47:52,412 --> 00:47:54,748 over the previous year and a half. 789 00:47:55,373 --> 00:47:57,834 And so we had a manifest 790 00:47:57,918 --> 00:47:59,920 of potential victims. 791 00:48:00,545 --> 00:48:02,589 After Jeffrey was arrested, 792 00:48:02,672 --> 00:48:04,883 we have 300 calls a day from people 793 00:48:04,966 --> 00:48:07,802 asking what happened to their child, 794 00:48:07,886 --> 00:48:10,347 or if he knew anything about their children. 795 00:48:10,931 --> 00:48:13,642 People are concerned tonight, people who lived in the area, 796 00:48:13,725 --> 00:48:16,353 people who have loved ones who have been missing in this case. 797 00:48:16,436 --> 00:48:18,313 They have started showing up this afternoon 798 00:48:18,396 --> 00:48:21,358 at the scene of that crime at 25th and Kilbourn. 799 00:48:21,441 --> 00:48:24,152 We were just out here looking, just by chance. 800 00:48:24,235 --> 00:48:27,739 It might not be so, but it might be so. We're looking for leads ourself. 801 00:48:28,531 --> 00:48:32,953 We would check with the medical examiner 802 00:48:33,036 --> 00:48:35,413 who tried to put the parts together. 803 00:48:36,456 --> 00:48:38,583 Once we had that information, 804 00:48:39,376 --> 00:48:41,419 and if we had a picture of him, 805 00:48:41,503 --> 00:48:43,546 we would show the photos to Dahmer 806 00:48:43,630 --> 00:48:46,466 in an attempt to identify these people. 807 00:48:47,467 --> 00:48:49,219 It was a monumental task. 808 00:48:49,761 --> 00:48:53,056 He would explain in great detail every victim. 809 00:48:53,848 --> 00:48:57,852 There certainly were victims that we would not have been able 810 00:48:57,936 --> 00:49:01,690 to connect to Dahmer without his cooperation. 811 00:49:01,773 --> 00:49:04,192 Henry Smith has searched for his brother in gay bars 812 00:49:04,275 --> 00:49:06,277 in both Milwaukee and Chicago, 813 00:49:06,361 --> 00:49:08,238 but so far has turned up nothing. 814 00:49:09,197 --> 00:49:12,784 It was often you walk in a bar and people say, 815 00:49:13,785 --> 00:49:16,079 "Child! Another one missing." 816 00:49:16,162 --> 00:49:18,832 And you say, "What? Who's missing now?" 817 00:49:18,915 --> 00:49:21,334 Because Milwaukee's so small, 818 00:49:22,168 --> 00:49:24,045 especially the Black gays. 819 00:49:24,879 --> 00:49:28,591 So if you didn't see somebody for two, three weeks, 820 00:49:28,675 --> 00:49:30,218 you figured they'd moved. 821 00:49:32,262 --> 00:49:34,431 But then it was almost 822 00:49:35,015 --> 00:49:38,268 I would say weekly, somebody else was saying, 823 00:49:38,351 --> 00:49:39,769 "So and so is gone." 824 00:49:41,104 --> 00:49:44,065 I was seeing Eddie Smith all the time. 825 00:49:44,816 --> 00:49:47,986 And all of a sudden, he was gone. 826 00:49:48,570 --> 00:49:51,823 Me myself, I don't… I don't think he's out there. 827 00:49:51,906 --> 00:49:55,243 Carolyn Smith is praying that her fears don't come true. 828 00:49:55,326 --> 00:49:59,539 Her 28-year-old brother Eddie was last seen a year ago on June 16, 829 00:49:59,622 --> 00:50:02,667 the day he went to go watch Milwaukee's Gay Pride parade. 830 00:50:03,251 --> 00:50:05,587 Eddie's sister came to the bar. 831 00:50:06,671 --> 00:50:09,466 She would ask people. She had pictures. 832 00:50:09,549 --> 00:50:12,552 She was like, "He would have called somebody." 833 00:50:12,635 --> 00:50:15,847 "I know he would have called me. I talk to my brother every day." 834 00:50:16,806 --> 00:50:19,350 While Ernest Miller grew up here in Milwaukee, 835 00:50:19,434 --> 00:50:22,395 he was about to return to Chicago when he suddenly disappeared. 836 00:50:23,688 --> 00:50:26,274 Ernest Miller, another young man. 837 00:50:26,357 --> 00:50:28,443 Ernest had a good soul. 838 00:50:28,985 --> 00:50:30,528 He was very creative. 839 00:50:30,612 --> 00:50:34,949 So of course, when Ernest came up missing, that was talk in the bars too. 840 00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:38,203 Eighteen-year-old Curtis Straughter lived in this home 841 00:50:38,286 --> 00:50:39,871 with his grandmother on the north side. 842 00:50:39,954 --> 00:50:42,582 She last saw him about five months ago. 843 00:50:45,919 --> 00:50:47,378 In those days, 844 00:50:47,462 --> 00:50:51,299 you could buy cigarettes in a cigarette machine in the bars. 845 00:50:52,842 --> 00:50:58,306 They used to have missing persons posters on the cigarette machine. 846 00:50:59,182 --> 00:51:02,644 These were missing posters of adults who had completely vanished. 847 00:51:02,727 --> 00:51:06,356 And their family members, their friends were trying to track them down. 848 00:51:06,439 --> 00:51:08,650 Fight back! Fight AIDS! 849 00:51:08,733 --> 00:51:12,153 But the years in which Dahmer was most active in Milwaukee 850 00:51:12,237 --> 00:51:13,780 coincide with years 851 00:51:13,863 --> 00:51:17,951 where the number of AIDS deaths in Wisconsin increased ten times over. 852 00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,621 So people would literally just disappear. 853 00:51:23,039 --> 00:51:24,499 Were they dead? 854 00:51:24,582 --> 00:51:27,669 Were they sick? Had they moved away? No one would know. 855 00:51:27,752 --> 00:51:30,255 Gay rights right now! Gay rights right now! 856 00:51:30,338 --> 00:51:31,840 Gay rights right now! 857 00:51:31,923 --> 00:51:33,758 Dahmer had a rare opportunity, 858 00:51:34,717 --> 00:51:36,636 a rare window in time 859 00:51:39,013 --> 00:51:41,432 where people were vanishing in the community, 860 00:51:43,268 --> 00:51:44,561 but no one knew why. 861 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,064 Jeffrey Dahmer was known to the Hughes family too. 862 00:51:48,148 --> 00:51:50,483 Friends of Tony Hughes, a deaf-mute, 863 00:51:50,567 --> 00:51:53,528 have told Tony's mother and sister that they saw Tony leave this bar 864 00:51:53,611 --> 00:51:54,946 with a blond man. 865 00:52:04,164 --> 00:52:07,458 Tony was unable to hear or speak, 866 00:52:07,542 --> 00:52:09,043 but he'd write notes. 867 00:52:09,127 --> 00:52:11,754 He always had a pad and paper. 868 00:52:12,547 --> 00:52:15,383 Whenever you were in his presence, you wanted to have fun 869 00:52:15,466 --> 00:52:17,051 because he was having fun. 870 00:52:18,970 --> 00:52:22,557 Tony knew Jeff for a long time. 871 00:52:23,766 --> 00:52:28,062 And Tony and Jeff had had relations. 872 00:52:28,146 --> 00:52:30,106 Tony told me so. 873 00:52:32,233 --> 00:52:35,820 It was Memorial Day weekend of 1991. 874 00:52:38,364 --> 00:52:39,991 Tony Hughes and I 875 00:52:40,533 --> 00:52:43,703 were together in a bar called The Phoenix. 876 00:52:44,954 --> 00:52:47,582 We were sitting at the bar having cocktails, 877 00:52:48,208 --> 00:52:50,877 and Jeff came in the back door. Jeffrey Dahmer. 878 00:52:52,712 --> 00:52:54,255 When Jeff walked in, 879 00:52:54,797 --> 00:52:58,384 Tony got up from the bar and approached him. 880 00:53:00,428 --> 00:53:05,225 Tony left me and went to follow Jeff on the dance floor. 881 00:53:06,976 --> 00:53:09,687 And that was the last time I saw Tony Hughes. 882 00:53:19,447 --> 00:53:21,950 Jeff discussed all of the victims with me. 883 00:53:23,034 --> 00:53:26,496 However, it takes time to get that rapport and that trust 884 00:53:26,579 --> 00:53:29,290 until you really feel like you can discuss 885 00:53:29,374 --> 00:53:32,543 all those inside secrets with people. 886 00:53:34,963 --> 00:53:37,215 With the deaf-mute guy, 887 00:53:37,924 --> 00:53:40,260 I wanted to keep him with me, 888 00:53:41,219 --> 00:53:44,806 so I gave him the drink with the pills in it. 889 00:53:45,348 --> 00:53:46,849 He fell asleep, 890 00:53:46,933 --> 00:53:49,894 and I wanted to see 891 00:53:49,978 --> 00:53:52,188 if I could, uh, think of a way 892 00:53:52,272 --> 00:53:53,982 to keep him with me 893 00:53:54,065 --> 00:53:57,068 without actually, you know, killing him. 894 00:53:57,902 --> 00:54:02,073 Once we got to that point where he felt real comfortable with me, 895 00:54:02,156 --> 00:54:05,243 there was, in fact, additional things that came out from him 896 00:54:05,326 --> 00:54:07,537 that didn't come out with the police. 897 00:54:08,496 --> 00:54:10,290 And so, uh… 898 00:54:10,373 --> 00:54:11,708 I had a drill at home. 899 00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:13,876 And, uh… 900 00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:15,670 It's gonna sound bad, 901 00:54:16,296 --> 00:54:17,171 but, uh… 902 00:54:18,047 --> 00:54:20,216 Should I say it or not? 903 00:54:21,884 --> 00:54:23,886 I took the drill while he was asleep 904 00:54:23,970 --> 00:54:27,056 and drilled a small hole in his skull, 905 00:54:27,682 --> 00:54:29,017 to see if I could, 906 00:54:30,018 --> 00:54:32,145 uh, make it so that he would, uh… 907 00:54:32,937 --> 00:54:36,149 just sorta be like, uh, in a zombie state. 908 00:54:37,984 --> 00:54:41,112 I think he truly believed that if he could keep one of them alive, 909 00:54:41,195 --> 00:54:43,323 like doing this crude lobotomy, 910 00:54:43,406 --> 00:54:46,784 that it would be sufficient to satisfy his needs. 911 00:54:48,578 --> 00:54:50,079 I was flabbergasted. 912 00:54:50,163 --> 00:54:53,541 I mean, to hear that was more than I could stand. 913 00:54:53,624 --> 00:54:56,794 In fact, one of the psychologists, uh, 914 00:54:56,878 --> 00:54:59,088 that we were working with, 915 00:54:59,172 --> 00:55:02,008 uh, Kenneth Smail, I… I made him stay. 916 00:55:02,091 --> 00:55:04,385 Jeff, where did you get that idea? 917 00:55:04,469 --> 00:55:07,638 Uh, it came from my own thoughts. 918 00:55:09,015 --> 00:55:10,099 Uh… 919 00:55:10,183 --> 00:55:13,728 Just in my own thinking that I thought maybe it would work, 920 00:55:13,811 --> 00:55:15,480 because I didn't wanna keep 921 00:55:16,439 --> 00:55:20,276 killing people and not have anything left except the skull. 922 00:55:22,779 --> 00:55:26,157 He wanted to take the person's will away is the way he would put it. 923 00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:28,618 It's astounding. It's jaw-dropping. 924 00:55:29,952 --> 00:55:33,247 He then injected muriatic acid 925 00:55:33,331 --> 00:55:35,291 through that hole in the skull. 926 00:55:36,959 --> 00:55:39,879 Mr. Hughes died from that injection. 927 00:55:39,962 --> 00:55:42,340 It wasn't necessary to strangle him later. 928 00:55:43,508 --> 00:55:46,260 And Dahmer kept the skull long term. 929 00:55:46,803 --> 00:55:48,721 In fact, that was one of the skulls 930 00:55:48,805 --> 00:55:51,140 still in his apartment at the time of his arrest. 931 00:55:57,897 --> 00:55:59,482 It saddens me 932 00:55:59,565 --> 00:56:01,234 every time I think about 933 00:56:01,317 --> 00:56:03,069 any of those gentlemen. 934 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,115 Because like everybody else during that time, 935 00:56:07,198 --> 00:56:09,158 they were trying to find themselves. 936 00:56:10,451 --> 00:56:12,662 They weren't expecting to get killed. 937 00:56:13,621 --> 00:56:15,748 These were, in most cases, 938 00:56:15,832 --> 00:56:18,960 uh, poor, gay men 939 00:56:19,544 --> 00:56:22,547 who probably didn't have a large support system, 940 00:56:23,172 --> 00:56:26,467 or whose support system when they said that, 941 00:56:26,551 --> 00:56:28,052 "My loved one is missing," 942 00:56:28,136 --> 00:56:31,472 the attention was not given to them the way it should've been. 943 00:56:33,015 --> 00:56:35,768 Authorities are wondering how anyone could have committed 944 00:56:35,852 --> 00:56:36,686 these gruesome acts, 945 00:56:36,769 --> 00:56:40,106 just as others in Milwaukee are wondering how police couldn't have known. 946 00:56:40,189 --> 00:56:44,235 Especially since Dahmer was a convicted sex offender out on parole. 947 00:56:47,947 --> 00:56:49,949 I was in the bars often. 948 00:56:50,741 --> 00:56:52,869 Nobody asked me about anybody. 949 00:56:53,453 --> 00:56:57,081 I didn't have any police officer, any detective, 950 00:56:57,165 --> 00:56:58,583 come up to me and say, 951 00:56:58,666 --> 00:57:01,294 "What do you know about this person or that person?" 952 00:57:02,503 --> 00:57:05,506 This wasn't a couple of months or a couple of weeks. 953 00:57:06,632 --> 00:57:08,176 This went on for years. 954 00:57:08,968 --> 00:57:11,721 How could one man kill so many for so long 955 00:57:11,804 --> 00:57:13,848 without being detected by police? 956 00:57:13,931 --> 00:57:17,643 The answer in part, according to some, is a law-enforcement community 957 00:57:17,727 --> 00:57:20,521 which is slow to investigate gay-related crime. 958 00:57:21,606 --> 00:57:24,484 If the victims had been white 959 00:57:24,567 --> 00:57:25,776 and straight, 960 00:57:26,861 --> 00:57:30,198 the search would have been more in-depth, 961 00:57:30,281 --> 00:57:31,741 more specific. 962 00:57:32,366 --> 00:57:33,826 Bitter charges of racism, 963 00:57:33,910 --> 00:57:36,412 a belief many of the killings could've been stopped. 964 00:57:36,496 --> 00:57:38,289 It just shows you the feeling 965 00:57:38,372 --> 00:57:41,209 towards the minority community, like we're a burden. 966 00:57:42,001 --> 00:57:44,879 The families that didn't think the police did enough… 967 00:57:46,672 --> 00:57:49,008 To be honest, I think some of them might have had a point. 968 00:57:49,091 --> 00:57:51,344 I think there was this feeling, 969 00:57:51,427 --> 00:57:53,346 it's a 20-year-old guy 970 00:57:53,429 --> 00:57:56,307 that was going to the bars and picking up guys. 971 00:57:56,390 --> 00:57:58,851 And so who knows where he is? 972 00:58:00,436 --> 00:58:03,481 There's a real question as to whether the police department 973 00:58:03,564 --> 00:58:05,942 sufficiently followed up on those missing people. 974 00:58:06,609 --> 00:58:09,403 Did they just assume that they were into trouble 975 00:58:09,487 --> 00:58:11,572 and not worth following up on? 976 00:58:11,656 --> 00:58:14,408 If they would have listened to people of color, 977 00:58:14,492 --> 00:58:18,037 they could have really saved a lot of young people's lives. 978 00:58:18,829 --> 00:58:23,668 I went out and bought a five-foot square freezer. 979 00:58:23,751 --> 00:58:26,629 What made you think that you wanted to do this? 980 00:58:27,547 --> 00:58:30,508 Because I was preparing for more.