1 00:00:10,595 --> 00:00:12,346 Fire department. 2 00:00:12,430 --> 00:00:15,975 Yes, could you send an ambulance on the corner of 25th and State? 3 00:00:17,226 --> 00:00:18,561 What's the problem? 4 00:00:18,644 --> 00:00:21,814 There's this butt-naked young boy or man, or whatever. 5 00:00:21,898 --> 00:00:24,859 He's still out, and people's trying to help him stand. He can't stand. 6 00:00:24,942 --> 00:00:27,403 He has no clothes on. He's very hurt. 7 00:00:29,238 --> 00:00:31,657 -Is he awake? -He ain't awake. 8 00:00:31,741 --> 00:00:33,993 They trying to get him to walk, but he can't walk straight, 9 00:00:34,077 --> 00:00:35,495 can't even see straight. 10 00:00:36,162 --> 00:00:39,040 -Anytime he stand up, he falls. 11 00:00:39,582 --> 00:00:41,751 25th and State? Yeah. 12 00:00:41,834 --> 00:00:44,337 All right. Okay. The one-way. Okay. Bye. 13 00:00:50,676 --> 00:00:53,638 What happened that night, it's unbelievable. 14 00:00:54,722 --> 00:00:58,726 Here's this young man, naked, outside Dahmer's apartment building. 15 00:00:58,810 --> 00:01:00,770 He had not a stitch of clothing on. 16 00:01:00,853 --> 00:01:03,689 Two people summoned the fire department and the police 17 00:01:03,773 --> 00:01:07,443 because some of them saw he had blood running out of his rectum. 18 00:01:07,527 --> 00:01:09,695 He had a scrape on his knee. 19 00:01:10,530 --> 00:01:13,991 He was clearly dazed from something. 20 00:01:14,867 --> 00:01:16,661 Why is this boy, 21 00:01:16,744 --> 00:01:20,248 naked, bleeding, and incoherent 22 00:01:20,331 --> 00:01:22,333 on the streets of Milwaukee? 23 00:01:50,653 --> 00:01:52,738 We had a mall called the Grand Avenue, 24 00:01:53,865 --> 00:01:57,201 and Jeffrey Dahmer was in the mall all the time. 25 00:01:58,703 --> 00:02:00,997 We would see him in the food court, 26 00:02:01,539 --> 00:02:03,291 walking up and down the mall. 27 00:02:04,375 --> 00:02:06,252 He took pictures of people, 28 00:02:07,003 --> 00:02:08,171 and he'd say, 29 00:02:08,254 --> 00:02:11,257 "You look like a model. Want me to take your picture?" 30 00:02:19,849 --> 00:02:22,560 Dahmer was sitting having pizza and a beer 31 00:02:22,643 --> 00:02:24,937 when he saw an attractive young man, 32 00:02:25,021 --> 00:02:27,607 Konerak Sinthasomphone, come by, 33 00:02:27,690 --> 00:02:30,234 whom he engaged in conversation. 34 00:02:30,776 --> 00:02:33,446 He offered the young man $50 35 00:02:33,529 --> 00:02:35,031 to pose for pictures. 36 00:02:36,616 --> 00:02:38,284 And the young man 37 00:02:38,367 --> 00:02:41,370 agreed to go back to Dahmer's apartment with him. 38 00:02:42,747 --> 00:02:45,875 In the apartment, Dahmer hands him this drink 39 00:02:45,958 --> 00:02:49,003 with the amount of Halcion that was able to 40 00:02:49,086 --> 00:02:51,214 render him unconscious for a while. 41 00:02:51,297 --> 00:02:55,218 Dahmer wanted to keep this victim alive as long as he could. 42 00:02:58,888 --> 00:03:00,932 In my sessions with him, 43 00:03:01,015 --> 00:03:04,852 Mr. Dahmer told me what he wanted was somebody perfectly compliant, 44 00:03:05,561 --> 00:03:08,898 who would stay with him without fear of leaving. 45 00:03:11,859 --> 00:03:14,862 There were a few where I tried the drilling technique. 46 00:03:14,946 --> 00:03:17,448 And I did the drilling with him too. 47 00:03:17,531 --> 00:03:18,532 You did? 48 00:03:19,283 --> 00:03:20,159 Mm-hmm. 49 00:03:20,243 --> 00:03:21,369 At what point? 50 00:03:21,452 --> 00:03:24,038 -Uh… -Before the officers came or after? 51 00:03:24,121 --> 00:03:26,207 Yeah, before the officers came. 52 00:03:28,334 --> 00:03:32,588 Jeffrey told me about, uh, Konerak, 53 00:03:32,672 --> 00:03:36,425 and how he made some adjustments and changes in his method 54 00:03:37,009 --> 00:03:39,679 in an effort to make him into a zombie 55 00:03:39,762 --> 00:03:41,931 that would actually live. 56 00:03:42,765 --> 00:03:45,643 Dahmer drilled a hole in his skull, 57 00:03:45,726 --> 00:03:47,812 injected muriatic acid 58 00:03:47,895 --> 00:03:51,649 and was waiting to see if he'd succeeded this time, 59 00:03:51,732 --> 00:03:54,819 because the others died from that injection. 60 00:03:56,404 --> 00:03:58,823 How far you think you penetrated with the drill? 61 00:03:58,906 --> 00:04:01,575 -All the way to the brain. -Two or three inches? 62 00:04:01,659 --> 00:04:03,869 -Yeah. -And you went straight down? 63 00:04:03,953 --> 00:04:06,289 -Right. Mm-mm. -Nothing came out? 64 00:04:06,789 --> 00:04:10,376 -No fluid of any kind? -No fluid that I could see. 65 00:04:10,459 --> 00:04:12,461 And no bleeding either. 66 00:04:13,671 --> 00:04:17,341 Konerak actually was able to function to a limited degree. 67 00:04:18,718 --> 00:04:21,053 He was groggy and everything. 68 00:04:21,137 --> 00:04:23,973 He wasn't dead or anything, and he talked. 69 00:04:24,515 --> 00:04:27,018 I thought maybe I'd be able to keep him that way. 70 00:04:27,727 --> 00:04:31,188 Jeff would just tell him what he wanted him to do, and it worked. 71 00:04:32,189 --> 00:04:34,942 What Jeff didn't take into consideration was the fact 72 00:04:35,026 --> 00:04:37,611 that he might run outside of the apartment. 73 00:04:42,575 --> 00:04:45,870 Dahmer went out to get liquor. He often did while doing these crimes. 74 00:04:46,829 --> 00:04:50,916 In this particular case, he left to get some beer at a nearby bar. 75 00:04:53,419 --> 00:04:55,588 While Dahmer is out getting beer, 76 00:04:55,671 --> 00:04:58,758 Konerak takes the opportunity to run out of the house 77 00:04:58,841 --> 00:05:00,509 and up the alley. 78 00:05:01,260 --> 00:05:06,724 That's when a neighbor looks out her window and sees him. 79 00:05:07,308 --> 00:05:09,477 The women call the police. 80 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:11,479 The police arrive, 81 00:05:11,562 --> 00:05:14,398 and Konerak is now sitting 82 00:05:14,482 --> 00:05:17,693 with a blanket around him at the scene. 83 00:05:17,777 --> 00:05:21,489 And the officers are approaching to find out what's going on. 84 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,743 Police officers tried to question Konerak. 85 00:05:25,826 --> 00:05:29,205 Konerak can't really communicate his side of the story 86 00:05:29,288 --> 00:05:30,790 'cause he's been drugged. 87 00:05:32,208 --> 00:05:34,293 There was nothing that would indicate 88 00:05:34,377 --> 00:05:37,296 that there was a hole in his head that Dahmer put there. 89 00:05:37,380 --> 00:05:39,673 There was no blood flowing from it. 90 00:05:40,466 --> 00:05:43,761 And while that was going on, Dahmer came up the street. 91 00:05:43,844 --> 00:05:45,930 These young women interceded. 92 00:05:46,013 --> 00:05:48,849 They asked Konerak, "What's your name?" He couldn't talk. 93 00:05:50,559 --> 00:05:53,979 That's when they got between them and said, "Stay away from him." 94 00:05:54,063 --> 00:05:57,817 Two 18-year-old Black girls protecting him from Dahmer. 95 00:05:58,359 --> 00:06:00,694 The police don't listen to those girls. 96 00:06:00,778 --> 00:06:03,072 They didn't even take their names. 97 00:06:03,155 --> 00:06:06,909 Kept telling them to be quiet. That they'd arrest them if they kept talking. 98 00:06:07,535 --> 00:06:09,954 Dahmer grabbed his arm and said, "No, he's my boyfriend," 99 00:06:10,037 --> 00:06:11,789 and started to take him back. 100 00:06:13,582 --> 00:06:15,793 Dahmer figured that, as a white guy, 101 00:06:15,876 --> 00:06:18,963 "I could tell these officers my version of the story." 102 00:06:19,463 --> 00:06:22,967 And I have to believe he believed that because he knew that, 103 00:06:23,050 --> 00:06:25,428 "I'm white, and I could get away with this." 104 00:06:26,554 --> 00:06:29,348 Jeffrey always had a quick response. 105 00:06:29,432 --> 00:06:31,684 It seemed kind of natural to him 106 00:06:31,767 --> 00:06:36,021 to have that ability to manipulate and get himself out of bad situations. 107 00:06:37,064 --> 00:06:40,151 Now you got a naked guy out in the streets, 108 00:06:40,901 --> 00:06:42,403 making noises. 109 00:06:42,486 --> 00:06:45,072 The police thought he was drunker than a billy goat. 110 00:06:45,156 --> 00:06:47,950 So what did they do? They don't just leave him. 111 00:06:48,033 --> 00:06:50,619 They take him into a place of safety, 112 00:06:50,703 --> 00:06:52,872 the apartment from whence he came. 113 00:06:54,582 --> 00:06:56,625 So they go into the apartment. 114 00:06:56,709 --> 00:07:00,421 Konerak sat on the couch as if this was his place. 115 00:07:00,963 --> 00:07:03,924 Konerak's clothes are all in a little pile, 116 00:07:04,008 --> 00:07:07,261 neatly laid out somewhere in the living room. 117 00:07:08,471 --> 00:07:12,433 Dahmer shows the officers photographs that he took of this young man 118 00:07:12,933 --> 00:07:15,478 and said that was… You know, that was his lover. 119 00:07:16,270 --> 00:07:20,441 They say, "We're not gonna arrest these two guys for being gay." 120 00:07:20,524 --> 00:07:21,650 "Ain't gonna happen." 121 00:07:22,276 --> 00:07:26,655 And they left Sinthasomphone on the couch at Dahmer's home 122 00:07:26,739 --> 00:07:28,616 and never looked in the bedroom. 123 00:07:30,534 --> 00:07:33,621 Little do those officers know that in Dahmer's bedroom, 124 00:07:34,246 --> 00:07:36,248 Tony Hughes's dead body 125 00:07:36,332 --> 00:07:39,001 is on the bed just laying there. 126 00:07:42,213 --> 00:07:45,132 The police left, and shortly thereafter 127 00:07:45,216 --> 00:07:47,510 Dahmer injected more of this acid 128 00:07:47,593 --> 00:07:50,387 into the brain of Konerak Sinthasomphone. 129 00:07:56,810 --> 00:07:58,312 What you put in? 130 00:07:58,395 --> 00:08:01,398 Konerak, I filled a syringe with muriatic acid. 131 00:08:02,608 --> 00:08:05,736 I used the acid again in a lesser dosage, 132 00:08:06,946 --> 00:08:10,783 but it was still too much the second time after I injected the second amount in. 133 00:08:15,955 --> 00:08:19,667 One of the girls who tried to protect Konerak 134 00:08:19,750 --> 00:08:22,211 went home and told her mother, Glenda Cleveland. 135 00:08:27,925 --> 00:08:30,469 -Milwaukee Police. -Yes, uh… 136 00:08:30,553 --> 00:08:33,055 Uh, there was a squad car, number 50, 137 00:08:33,138 --> 00:08:36,934 that was flagged down earlier this evening, about 15 minutes ago. 138 00:08:37,017 --> 00:08:38,686 -That was me. -What happened? 139 00:08:38,769 --> 00:08:41,855 I mean, my daughter and my niece, uh, 140 00:08:41,939 --> 00:08:44,692 witnessed what was going on. Was anything done about the situation? 141 00:08:44,775 --> 00:08:48,862 Nope. It's an intoxicated, uh, boyfriend 142 00:08:48,946 --> 00:08:50,573 of another boyfriend. 143 00:08:51,365 --> 00:08:52,825 How old was this child? 144 00:08:52,908 --> 00:08:56,161 -It wasn't a child. It was an adult. Are you sure? 145 00:08:57,079 --> 00:09:00,165 Ma'am, I can't make it any more clear. It's all taken care of. 146 00:09:04,461 --> 00:09:06,171 Sinthasomphone died. 147 00:09:08,132 --> 00:09:11,135 He died within an hour after the police left the apartment. 148 00:09:13,304 --> 00:09:15,139 Konerak Sinthasomphone 149 00:09:15,222 --> 00:09:20,561 was 14 years old and was one of the youngest of Dahmer's victims. 150 00:09:22,855 --> 00:09:26,525 If they thought for a moment that he was at risk, 151 00:09:27,318 --> 00:09:30,237 they would never have let him go back with Dahmer, ever. 152 00:09:30,321 --> 00:09:33,949 The police officers had been told to be respectful 153 00:09:34,033 --> 00:09:36,160 of the gay community in Milwaukee. 154 00:09:36,243 --> 00:09:39,747 And I think they probably were thinking they were being respectful, 155 00:09:40,372 --> 00:09:43,876 and not bringing a heterosexual bias 156 00:09:43,959 --> 00:09:45,461 to the situation. 157 00:09:46,795 --> 00:09:49,590 Whatever the police did, 158 00:09:50,174 --> 00:09:51,634 obviously, it wasn't enough. 159 00:09:52,718 --> 00:09:55,095 You have a number of African Americans 160 00:09:55,179 --> 00:09:58,724 basically saying that this young man is underage, 161 00:09:58,807 --> 00:10:03,020 that he didn't appear to be in his right state of mind. 162 00:10:03,103 --> 00:10:06,732 People say they were doing their jobs, just doing the best they could. 163 00:10:06,815 --> 00:10:11,320 That falls very far short of what they should have done. 164 00:10:12,321 --> 00:10:15,699 If they'd run his name, they'd have found he was on probation 165 00:10:15,783 --> 00:10:18,619 for assaulting a Laotian boy, 166 00:10:20,329 --> 00:10:22,873 who would turn out to be Konerak's brother. 167 00:10:23,457 --> 00:10:25,876 How… How does this happen? 168 00:10:27,711 --> 00:10:30,089 Twice victimized by Jeffrey Dahmer, 169 00:10:30,172 --> 00:10:34,301 one of Konerak's brothers had been molested by Dahmer three years ago. 170 00:10:35,469 --> 00:10:37,930 The family came to America 11 years ago 171 00:10:38,013 --> 00:10:39,723 with dreams of a better life. 172 00:10:39,807 --> 00:10:43,394 Instead, Jeffrey Dahmer has given them a grisly nightmare. 173 00:10:45,896 --> 00:10:48,857 He said, "It… It seems almost more than coincidence." 174 00:10:49,942 --> 00:10:52,027 However, it was something 175 00:10:52,111 --> 00:10:55,656 that really shocked Jeff when he heard that. 176 00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:58,826 He just was… was floored by it. 177 00:11:00,411 --> 00:11:03,414 The Eurasians, it's just amazing they were brothers. 178 00:11:03,497 --> 00:11:04,498 It's… It's incredible. 179 00:11:06,208 --> 00:11:07,418 I can't believe it. 180 00:11:10,713 --> 00:11:13,132 -Are you saying it's his brother? -Mm-hmm. 181 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:18,762 -You know what his name was? -No. 182 00:11:19,513 --> 00:11:20,848 Sure don't. 183 00:11:23,225 --> 00:11:26,353 It's a horrible tragedy for the Sinthasomphone family. 184 00:11:26,437 --> 00:11:28,147 A sexual assault victim 185 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,193 and a separate murder victim in the same family. 186 00:11:33,777 --> 00:11:36,989 It's hard to fathom what that family had to go through 187 00:11:37,072 --> 00:11:38,991 at the hands of Jeffrey Dahmer. 188 00:11:48,751 --> 00:11:52,546 After Dahmer was arrested in July of '91, 189 00:11:52,629 --> 00:11:55,549 the community was in an uproar when they found out 190 00:11:55,632 --> 00:11:58,677 that the police had released Konerak back to Dahmer. 191 00:12:00,554 --> 00:12:03,140 Glenda Cleveland called the police station 192 00:12:03,223 --> 00:12:06,143 again and again over the next week or so. 193 00:12:06,727 --> 00:12:09,980 She said, "My daughter saw this boy naked," 194 00:12:10,063 --> 00:12:13,901 just believing that he had been sexually assaulted. 195 00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:19,406 I was a young reporter at the Sentinel when the Dahmer case broke. 196 00:12:19,490 --> 00:12:23,202 Somebody wanted to talk about Dahmer, and I said, "I can talk to you." 197 00:12:24,203 --> 00:12:26,455 The person on the phone was Glenda Cleveland. 198 00:12:26,538 --> 00:12:30,667 She tells me this story that they had tried to protect this boy, 199 00:12:30,751 --> 00:12:32,503 and the police wouldn't listen to them. 200 00:12:32,586 --> 00:12:35,380 I called a captain at the police station. 201 00:12:36,048 --> 00:12:39,134 I was expecting him to just deny it, but they didn't. 202 00:12:39,218 --> 00:12:41,804 They said, "Yes, this matter's under investigation." 203 00:12:41,887 --> 00:12:44,598 How could the police give that boy back to that man? 204 00:12:44,681 --> 00:12:48,101 They handed that minority male back to Dahmer, 205 00:12:48,185 --> 00:12:51,605 but they took the word of the white male over five Black witnesses. 206 00:12:51,688 --> 00:12:54,733 I have concluded that the officers failed 207 00:12:54,817 --> 00:12:59,571 to properly perform their duties as required by the rules and regulations 208 00:12:59,655 --> 00:13:01,740 of the Milwaukee Police Department. 209 00:13:02,241 --> 00:13:06,286 The two police officers, John Balcerzak and Joe Gabrish, 210 00:13:06,370 --> 00:13:09,498 were fired from the Milwaukee Police Department. 211 00:13:10,791 --> 00:13:14,962 It was turmoil in the police department. The city was torn. 212 00:13:15,879 --> 00:13:17,798 Some people supported the officers. 213 00:13:17,881 --> 00:13:21,260 We are behind our police officers 100%. 214 00:13:23,512 --> 00:13:25,597 Much of the white community is not convinced 215 00:13:25,681 --> 00:13:28,141 that racism is a problem in the police department. 216 00:13:28,225 --> 00:13:31,728 They are rallying behind the police, even as the charges grow louder. 217 00:13:31,812 --> 00:13:35,524 I personally feel that there is equal and fair treatment done 218 00:13:35,607 --> 00:13:38,527 throughout the community by our officers. They're trained that way. 219 00:13:38,610 --> 00:13:41,738 I don't think that the officers 220 00:13:41,822 --> 00:13:45,158 made a decision based upon any race, 221 00:13:45,242 --> 00:13:46,785 any homophobia. 222 00:13:46,869 --> 00:13:50,289 Obviously in retrospect, the officers made a mistake, 223 00:13:50,372 --> 00:13:53,208 but there was a lot of people that Dahmer had conned. 224 00:13:53,292 --> 00:13:55,586 And he conned those officers that night. 225 00:13:55,669 --> 00:13:58,505 And I'm sure those officers 226 00:13:58,589 --> 00:14:01,133 have second-guessed that many times. 227 00:14:04,177 --> 00:14:08,098 People have pointed to the radio transmission by the officers 228 00:14:08,724 --> 00:14:11,310 right after the contact. 229 00:14:12,144 --> 00:14:14,396 The intoxicated Asian naked male… 230 00:14:16,148 --> 00:14:20,319 …was returned to his sober boyfriend. 231 00:14:20,402 --> 00:14:24,114 It'll be a minute. My partner's gonna get deloused at the station. 232 00:14:24,197 --> 00:14:26,283 You hear officers laughing in the background. 233 00:14:26,366 --> 00:14:28,994 I think that what they did was a travesty. 234 00:14:29,870 --> 00:14:36,043 That gets back to the root of how we view homosexuality. 235 00:14:36,126 --> 00:14:38,921 Gay people were made fun of. They were the butt of the joke. 236 00:14:40,339 --> 00:14:43,091 But then the two police officers 237 00:14:43,175 --> 00:14:46,386 went to circuit court to appeal their firing. 238 00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:48,305 The court agreed with them, 239 00:14:48,972 --> 00:14:51,350 reinstated them with back pay. 240 00:14:53,185 --> 00:14:55,270 The Konerak Sinthasomphone case 241 00:14:55,354 --> 00:14:57,522 shed a spotlight on Milwaukee. 242 00:14:58,315 --> 00:15:01,860 This was telling them a lot about their community. 243 00:15:01,944 --> 00:15:05,238 It was telling them a lot about the police protection 244 00:15:05,322 --> 00:15:06,698 that they were offered. 245 00:15:07,366 --> 00:15:09,242 This was a very scary episode. 246 00:15:21,421 --> 00:15:25,384 After Mr. Dahmer killed, uh, this young Laotian lad, 247 00:15:26,385 --> 00:15:28,762 bodies were piling up in his apartment. 248 00:15:30,847 --> 00:15:34,101 Dahmer went on to kill four more people. 249 00:15:35,060 --> 00:15:38,021 At first, it was nine years between his homicides. 250 00:15:38,105 --> 00:15:41,316 Then it was months. After Konerak, it was weeks. 251 00:15:43,151 --> 00:15:45,445 An hour before I had to go to work, 252 00:15:45,529 --> 00:15:48,532 I was trying to decide whether to strangle him then, 253 00:15:48,615 --> 00:15:51,076 or keep him alive during the night. 254 00:15:51,868 --> 00:15:54,663 And I chose the latter and missed work. 255 00:15:56,039 --> 00:15:59,042 And was fired that Sunday. 256 00:15:59,126 --> 00:16:01,086 And that was the domino. 257 00:16:01,169 --> 00:16:04,589 The first domino that started the whole chain reaction falling. 258 00:16:08,927 --> 00:16:11,221 He had started drinking more 259 00:16:11,304 --> 00:16:13,640 and spiraling down. 260 00:16:15,851 --> 00:16:18,895 I noticed that I wasn't seeing him 261 00:16:19,896 --> 00:16:22,399 as often as before he lost his job. 262 00:16:24,359 --> 00:16:29,072 And I would actually go to knock on his door to check on him. 263 00:16:29,656 --> 00:16:33,827 And I would notice the peephole would go dark. 264 00:16:35,495 --> 00:16:36,872 Then it'd go back light. 265 00:16:37,372 --> 00:16:39,541 And I knew that he came to the door, 266 00:16:39,624 --> 00:16:40,876 and that he saw me. 267 00:16:40,959 --> 00:16:43,962 He knew that it was me knocking on the door, 268 00:16:44,755 --> 00:16:46,631 and he didn't open the door for me. 269 00:16:47,132 --> 00:16:49,968 So I… I took it upon myself 270 00:16:50,052 --> 00:16:53,013 to think that he wanted me to go away, 271 00:16:53,847 --> 00:16:55,015 which I did. 272 00:16:57,809 --> 00:17:01,396 A couple of the doctors said, "Yes, he was definitely an alcoholic." 273 00:17:02,397 --> 00:17:04,107 He had an addictive personality. 274 00:17:04,983 --> 00:17:08,528 I think he had the same addiction to the killing. 275 00:17:08,612 --> 00:17:11,490 As it grew and grew and grew, 276 00:17:11,573 --> 00:17:14,201 he needed it more and more and more. 277 00:17:14,284 --> 00:17:16,161 He reached a point of time 278 00:17:16,244 --> 00:17:19,706 where he was consistently having to go out 279 00:17:19,790 --> 00:17:23,502 and deal with yet another individual, 280 00:17:23,585 --> 00:17:26,880 and not disposing of the other ones he'd already killed. 281 00:17:28,548 --> 00:17:31,093 When I was dismembering him in the tub, 282 00:17:31,176 --> 00:17:33,386 I didn't finish the job in one night. 283 00:17:34,596 --> 00:17:37,390 I was in too much of a rush to get it done. 284 00:17:42,020 --> 00:17:46,274 He was getting so overwhelmed with what he was doing 285 00:17:46,358 --> 00:17:49,528 that he had no more control of the scene. 286 00:17:50,862 --> 00:17:54,241 He was showering with two people in the bottom of the tub. 287 00:17:54,741 --> 00:17:58,495 I asked him, "Why didn't you get rid of the bodies before you went after another?" 288 00:17:58,578 --> 00:18:01,248 He said, "I couldn't help it. I needed the excitement of it." 289 00:18:02,874 --> 00:18:05,168 It was important that I was nonjudgmental, 290 00:18:05,752 --> 00:18:09,089 and that I didn't put him into a position 291 00:18:09,172 --> 00:18:11,007 that would stop him from talking. 292 00:18:11,967 --> 00:18:16,513 But hearing the graphic detail from Jeffrey Dahmer 293 00:18:16,596 --> 00:18:19,099 was a challenge. 294 00:18:20,809 --> 00:18:23,103 -Did it excite you? -Yeah, it did. 295 00:18:24,062 --> 00:18:26,439 Yeah, just to see the inside. 296 00:18:27,816 --> 00:18:30,026 It grew through time 297 00:18:30,110 --> 00:18:32,988 where it wasn't just having sex with a corpse, 298 00:18:33,697 --> 00:18:36,908 but it was opening the viscera of the body 299 00:18:36,992 --> 00:18:40,287 and… and, uh, having sex right there 300 00:18:40,370 --> 00:18:42,873 with the insides of the person. 301 00:18:44,541 --> 00:18:46,543 There were times where it was 302 00:18:46,626 --> 00:18:49,963 very, very difficult to listen to, 303 00:18:50,547 --> 00:18:54,801 and to pretend like, you know, uh, this isn't affecting me. 304 00:18:56,136 --> 00:18:58,972 I almost got in trouble because 305 00:19:00,682 --> 00:19:03,310 that smell apparently alerted neighbors. 306 00:19:07,772 --> 00:19:11,026 One night, I was sleeping, 307 00:19:11,109 --> 00:19:15,071 and this horrible smell woke me up about 2:30 in the morning. 308 00:19:16,114 --> 00:19:17,574 And I opened the door, 309 00:19:17,657 --> 00:19:20,827 and I could see a mist. 310 00:19:22,245 --> 00:19:26,208 You ever watch a movie, a scary movie where you're in the graveyard, 311 00:19:26,291 --> 00:19:30,295 and they got the, you know, coming up? That's what I saw. 312 00:19:31,421 --> 00:19:32,547 I closed the door, 313 00:19:33,048 --> 00:19:36,384 I took a towel, and I covered the bottom of the door. 314 00:19:36,468 --> 00:19:37,969 So then I went back to bed. 315 00:19:39,804 --> 00:19:43,850 And when I woke up, I told my wife Pam about the smell, 316 00:19:43,934 --> 00:19:48,355 and she said, "I'm gonna find out today where it's coming from." 317 00:19:50,273 --> 00:19:51,608 Later, she said, 318 00:19:51,691 --> 00:19:53,318 "I sniffed the door hinges." 319 00:19:53,401 --> 00:19:55,820 "And the smell's coming from Jeff's apartment." 320 00:19:57,364 --> 00:20:03,245 She took a lawn chair, and she sat in our apartment with our door open, 321 00:20:03,328 --> 00:20:05,330 waiting for Jeff to come home. 322 00:20:05,914 --> 00:20:09,334 When he came home, she confronted him about the smell. 323 00:20:09,417 --> 00:20:12,879 And he said that his freezer had quit working, 324 00:20:12,963 --> 00:20:16,007 and the meat spoiled in his freezer. 325 00:20:17,300 --> 00:20:18,677 And so I asked him, 326 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,138 "Don't you got a warranty on that thing? How long have you had it?" 327 00:20:23,431 --> 00:20:25,475 Did they ever come and inquire? 328 00:20:26,101 --> 00:20:28,395 -Yeah, they did. -What happened? 329 00:20:28,478 --> 00:20:31,106 I told them the freezer went on the blink. 330 00:20:35,986 --> 00:20:39,948 He used a variety of means to keep what he could 331 00:20:40,949 --> 00:20:43,201 of the men he found attractive. 332 00:20:43,285 --> 00:20:46,579 And that included taking photographs of them 333 00:20:46,663 --> 00:20:48,999 when they were unconscious or dead, 334 00:20:49,499 --> 00:20:52,877 removing parts of them that he would preserve. 335 00:20:52,961 --> 00:20:56,589 And it included eventually 336 00:20:56,673 --> 00:20:58,967 some cannibalization. 337 00:21:00,385 --> 00:21:02,762 Did you select what you decided to keep? 338 00:21:02,846 --> 00:21:04,097 How did you select that? 339 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,892 Just the meatiest-looking parts. 340 00:21:07,976 --> 00:21:10,687 The parts with the least amount of fat. 341 00:21:11,646 --> 00:21:14,899 -So the biceps, thighs, calves? -Right. Mm-hmm. 342 00:21:17,152 --> 00:21:21,364 The eating of victims is part of the very disturbed thinking that developed 343 00:21:21,448 --> 00:21:25,702 once Mr. Dahmer gave up on the idea that he could fight the urge to kill. 344 00:21:28,163 --> 00:21:31,082 There were various body parts he'd thought about eating, 345 00:21:31,166 --> 00:21:32,751 including a human heart. 346 00:21:34,210 --> 00:21:36,755 So you took out the heart and the liver, 347 00:21:36,838 --> 00:21:39,257 and you preserved that and his thigh. 348 00:21:39,341 --> 00:21:41,134 What did you do with the rest of it then? 349 00:21:41,217 --> 00:21:44,387 I kept about 50 pounds. The rest went in the trash. 350 00:21:44,471 --> 00:21:47,432 How many pounds would you estimate you've eaten? 351 00:21:47,515 --> 00:21:48,975 Total, about… 352 00:21:50,226 --> 00:21:51,144 ten. 353 00:21:52,395 --> 00:21:54,898 At one point, he drank human blood, again, 354 00:21:54,981 --> 00:21:58,860 somehow thinking in his disturbed way that this was gonna connect him 355 00:21:58,943 --> 00:22:01,529 with the blood of the people that he was consuming. 356 00:22:02,030 --> 00:22:05,450 His thinking was, "Somehow, if I ingest these souls, 357 00:22:05,533 --> 00:22:07,702 they will still live on through me." 358 00:22:09,079 --> 00:22:12,499 If anybody looked it looked like you just stocked up. 359 00:22:12,582 --> 00:22:15,418 So it looked just like supermarket meat. 360 00:22:16,294 --> 00:22:17,796 I froze it for a while. 361 00:22:17,879 --> 00:22:19,255 Maybe a month. 362 00:22:19,339 --> 00:22:21,341 Or not that long. A couple weeks. 363 00:22:22,926 --> 00:22:25,178 Oh my God. I had no idea 364 00:22:25,762 --> 00:22:29,224 that this is what was occurring right across the hall 365 00:22:29,307 --> 00:22:30,767 from where we lived. 366 00:22:31,935 --> 00:22:35,063 Everyone in the building felt suckered. 367 00:22:36,481 --> 00:22:40,610 We all felt that Jeffrey Dahmer had played us. 368 00:22:41,903 --> 00:22:43,613 It's really hard 369 00:22:44,364 --> 00:22:46,533 to become fond of someone 370 00:22:47,325 --> 00:22:53,289 to find out that actually that person had a dagger in your back. 371 00:22:54,207 --> 00:22:56,418 I thought this guy was my friend. 372 00:23:01,131 --> 00:23:05,176 People who live in the building are in a state of shock tonight. 373 00:23:05,260 --> 00:23:06,845 They simply cannot believe 374 00:23:06,928 --> 00:23:10,682 that a crime of this magnitude was going on right next door. 375 00:23:11,266 --> 00:23:14,394 The race question in the Jeffrey Dahmer story was raised today, 376 00:23:14,477 --> 00:23:16,396 since most of the murder victims were Black, 377 00:23:16,479 --> 00:23:19,190 and since it happened in a largely Black neighborhood. 378 00:23:19,274 --> 00:23:22,569 The racism is the key because the consistent thing, 379 00:23:22,652 --> 00:23:25,488 above the sex with the corpse, above the number, 380 00:23:25,572 --> 00:23:26,990 is the consistency 381 00:23:27,073 --> 00:23:29,409 that these were Black young men. 382 00:23:30,285 --> 00:23:33,621 Dahmer said his ideal victim was a young, athletic Black male, 383 00:23:34,747 --> 00:23:37,459 but his first two victims were white. 384 00:23:37,542 --> 00:23:40,753 He had Hispanic victims. He had Asian victims. 385 00:23:41,463 --> 00:23:45,341 He was attracted to people of color. This wasn't some hate crime. 386 00:23:45,425 --> 00:23:48,136 He was trying to become involved intimately 387 00:23:48,219 --> 00:23:50,889 with the sort of person towards whom he was attracted. 388 00:23:52,724 --> 00:23:55,185 I don't know what was in Dahmer's mind. 389 00:23:56,978 --> 00:23:59,230 Was he a racist? Who cares? 390 00:23:59,314 --> 00:24:00,815 He killed Black people. 391 00:24:00,899 --> 00:24:02,650 He killed people of color. 392 00:24:02,734 --> 00:24:04,110 He killed gay people. 393 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,281 In my opinion, what matters is that he took the lives 394 00:24:08,364 --> 00:24:11,910 of a lot of people that should still be alive today. 395 00:24:23,630 --> 00:24:27,425 With today's technology, the trial will be beamed through outer space 396 00:24:27,509 --> 00:24:29,969 to other countries in a matter of seconds. 397 00:24:30,053 --> 00:24:32,972 The line people in England have used is that Jeffrey Dahmer 398 00:24:33,056 --> 00:24:36,351 has made sure that Milwaukee's not just gonna be famous for beer. 399 00:24:36,434 --> 00:24:38,728 It's now gonna be famous for serial killers. 400 00:24:40,313 --> 00:24:44,234 Dahmer confessed to killing 17 people altogether. 401 00:24:46,110 --> 00:24:48,154 Dahmer entered a plea of guilty. 402 00:24:48,238 --> 00:24:52,242 The only issue now was whether he was sane or insane. 403 00:24:52,325 --> 00:24:55,453 Dahmer's plea was, "Yes, I did the murders, but I'm insane." 404 00:24:57,163 --> 00:24:58,831 The trial was a big event. 405 00:24:58,915 --> 00:25:02,627 It had drawn a lot of reporters. Family members were there. 406 00:25:04,796 --> 00:25:08,091 It was now, you know, the big show. 407 00:25:09,467 --> 00:25:13,596 Michael McCann was the DA at the time that conducted the trial for the state. 408 00:25:18,101 --> 00:25:20,603 Gerry Boyle was Dahmer's defense attorney, 409 00:25:20,687 --> 00:25:23,314 and a powerhouse in delivering an argument to a jury. 410 00:25:23,398 --> 00:25:25,400 And I knew he'd be a tough guy. 411 00:25:26,609 --> 00:25:30,196 I can still remember what it was like to sit with the other media 412 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:31,614 at the Milwaukee County Courthouse 413 00:25:31,698 --> 00:25:35,326 when we were waiting for Dahmer's initial appearance in court. 414 00:25:36,369 --> 00:25:40,915 This was going to be the first time that we were going to see him in person. 415 00:25:43,126 --> 00:25:46,671 We were expecting like, you know, maybe Charles Manson, 416 00:25:47,380 --> 00:25:49,757 but Dahmer was a good-looking man. 417 00:25:51,092 --> 00:25:52,552 He was subdued. 418 00:25:53,344 --> 00:25:57,307 He… didn't look like a serial killer. 419 00:25:59,183 --> 00:26:02,353 I think there was the hope from Dahmer's father 420 00:26:02,437 --> 00:26:05,565 that there's some understanding that he did this 421 00:26:05,648 --> 00:26:07,984 because of a mental disease. 422 00:26:08,818 --> 00:26:12,739 Lionel was hoping that the court could give Jeffrey the help he needed. 423 00:26:13,239 --> 00:26:14,782 Everyone please rise. 424 00:26:17,327 --> 00:26:21,289 Hear ye, Circuit court branch 33 in Milwaukee County's now in session, 425 00:26:21,372 --> 00:26:23,791 the Honorable Laurence C. Gram here presiding. 426 00:26:24,334 --> 00:26:27,462 The burden to show the insanity was on the defense. 427 00:26:28,713 --> 00:26:31,132 In an insanity plea, the defense presents first. 428 00:26:31,215 --> 00:26:33,718 Very different from the typical burden of proof. 429 00:26:34,594 --> 00:26:36,971 I accept the responsibility 430 00:26:37,055 --> 00:26:38,431 of proving to you 431 00:26:38,973 --> 00:26:41,684 that this was not an evil man. 432 00:26:41,768 --> 00:26:44,187 This was a sick man. 433 00:26:45,647 --> 00:26:48,566 My duty and my goal were to prove 434 00:26:48,650 --> 00:26:52,820 that he was insane during the commission of these offenses. 435 00:26:52,904 --> 00:26:56,824 That when he killed somebody, he was suffering from mental illness. 436 00:26:57,367 --> 00:27:00,453 And this is what I see about this Jeffrey Dahmer 437 00:27:01,287 --> 00:27:03,039 as a total human being. 438 00:27:03,581 --> 00:27:06,918 A person who's into fantasy, drugging, 439 00:27:07,001 --> 00:27:09,337 keeping skulls in locker, cannibalism, 440 00:27:09,420 --> 00:27:12,215 sexual urges, drilling, making zombies, necrophilia. 441 00:27:13,091 --> 00:27:16,052 Of course, by an average person's view 442 00:27:16,552 --> 00:27:19,722 he was insane. He was a cannibal. He was a serial killer. 443 00:27:20,223 --> 00:27:23,476 But by the criminal standard of insanity, 444 00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:25,978 was he insane? 445 00:27:26,062 --> 00:27:29,732 Did he meet the legal definition? That was an open question. 446 00:27:29,816 --> 00:27:33,653 Before a person can be found insane under the law, 447 00:27:34,779 --> 00:27:38,157 he must suffer from a mental illness or defect, 448 00:27:38,241 --> 00:27:41,869 and they lack substantial capacity 449 00:27:41,953 --> 00:27:45,164 to understand the difference between right and wrong. 450 00:27:45,248 --> 00:27:49,335 Or they're unable to control their conduct 451 00:27:49,419 --> 00:27:51,295 to the requirements of the law. 452 00:27:52,255 --> 00:27:57,176 I went to Chicago, and I got Dr. Wahlstrom and was able to bring him in on the case. 453 00:27:57,260 --> 00:28:00,471 The defendant's personality structure, 454 00:28:00,555 --> 00:28:03,766 his underlying way of looking at the world and himself, 455 00:28:03,850 --> 00:28:06,102 is diagnosed and meets the criteria 456 00:28:06,185 --> 00:28:08,896 for schizotypal and borderline personality disorders. 457 00:28:08,980 --> 00:28:10,231 Tell us what that means. 458 00:28:10,982 --> 00:28:15,278 They have frantic attempts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. 459 00:28:15,361 --> 00:28:16,988 And in this case, 460 00:28:17,071 --> 00:28:20,825 it's the most extreme example of those kind of frantic attempts. 461 00:28:21,409 --> 00:28:24,245 Dahmer didn't want people to leave him, 462 00:28:24,328 --> 00:28:25,747 but to stay with him. 463 00:28:25,830 --> 00:28:29,667 That feeling of abandonment, I think a part of that goes to 464 00:28:29,751 --> 00:28:33,421 why he kept the body parts of his victims. 465 00:28:34,005 --> 00:28:36,340 He saved the bones. He saved the skulls. 466 00:28:37,091 --> 00:28:39,177 He saved the hands. 467 00:28:39,761 --> 00:28:43,514 Jeff indicated that it… it was for a shrine. 468 00:28:45,725 --> 00:28:47,935 I have this pedestal. 469 00:28:48,019 --> 00:28:50,313 This black pedestal. 470 00:28:50,897 --> 00:28:55,902 And I had a, uh, black, round top on top of it, 471 00:28:55,985 --> 00:28:59,447 and I had the skulls set up on top of that, around it. 472 00:29:02,033 --> 00:29:04,994 It was just, uh, a remembrance of, uh… 473 00:29:06,579 --> 00:29:09,332 the people. A keepsake of each one of them. 474 00:29:11,501 --> 00:29:15,129 It was my own, yeah, private little world. Yeah. 475 00:29:17,381 --> 00:29:19,091 I had complete control. 476 00:29:22,011 --> 00:29:25,139 That's about the ultimate control you can have. 477 00:29:30,728 --> 00:29:33,314 This is, in fact, 478 00:29:33,397 --> 00:29:35,316 the picture of what he drew. 479 00:29:38,945 --> 00:29:41,197 And as you see here, 480 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,241 he signed it below. 481 00:29:44,534 --> 00:29:46,661 Did you feel by keeping the skulls, 482 00:29:46,744 --> 00:29:50,248 and if you would've actually accomplished this shrine, 483 00:29:50,331 --> 00:29:52,917 that you would've felt less lonely, 484 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,378 like you were being kept company, that they were there? 485 00:29:55,461 --> 00:30:00,216 I think that must have, yeah, been, uh, my thinking. 486 00:30:02,426 --> 00:30:06,514 Jeffrey's building the shrine was all about power and control for him. 487 00:30:06,597 --> 00:30:10,643 And that each trait that he liked out of each one of them 488 00:30:10,726 --> 00:30:14,063 was something that was now internalized into his own life. 489 00:30:14,146 --> 00:30:18,109 That was a bizarre delusion that he thought that he could take 490 00:30:18,192 --> 00:30:22,697 the skulls and the bones of victims 491 00:30:23,781 --> 00:30:26,450 and create a power center 492 00:30:26,534 --> 00:30:29,787 in which he would be able to get special powers. 493 00:30:29,871 --> 00:30:32,623 We're trying to win an insanity defense. 494 00:30:32,707 --> 00:30:34,625 This was where he lost control. 495 00:30:35,293 --> 00:30:37,461 We're trying to show that, you know, 496 00:30:37,545 --> 00:30:40,172 he didn't have that rational thought anymore. 497 00:30:42,508 --> 00:30:45,344 I believe he had a mental disease, necrophilia, 498 00:30:45,428 --> 00:30:49,015 a very rare and, uh, possibly dangerous psychiatric condition. 499 00:30:49,974 --> 00:30:53,311 This is a human being with a horrible psychiatric disorder 500 00:30:53,394 --> 00:30:56,939 who is really struggling very hard not to allow that disorder 501 00:30:57,023 --> 00:31:00,026 to bring him to the point where he's harming other people. 502 00:31:00,109 --> 00:31:01,569 Obviously, he lost that battle. 503 00:31:01,652 --> 00:31:03,112 In my professional opinion, 504 00:31:03,195 --> 00:31:06,908 Mr. Dahmer did lack substantial capacity to conform his behavior 505 00:31:06,991 --> 00:31:08,659 to the requirements of law. 506 00:31:08,743 --> 00:31:12,330 But I believe they met, at that time, the statutory requirements 507 00:31:12,413 --> 00:31:15,666 for an insanity defense. And I still believe that today. 508 00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:19,921 I was approached by the district attorney's office 509 00:31:20,004 --> 00:31:22,131 to evaluate Mr. Dahmer. 510 00:31:22,214 --> 00:31:24,342 At the time of each of the killings, 511 00:31:24,425 --> 00:31:28,346 he did have the capacity not to do the killing. 512 00:31:28,429 --> 00:31:32,308 There was no force pushing him to kill. 513 00:31:33,017 --> 00:31:35,186 There was merely a desire 514 00:31:35,269 --> 00:31:37,688 to spend more time with the victim. 515 00:31:37,772 --> 00:31:40,983 If the victim had agreed voluntarily to stay with him, 516 00:31:41,067 --> 00:31:43,152 he would not have done the killing. 517 00:31:43,235 --> 00:31:47,490 That's an indication that he could control his behavior. 518 00:31:48,658 --> 00:31:51,535 I didn't think Dahmer had a mental disease 519 00:31:51,619 --> 00:31:53,329 or mental illness. 520 00:31:53,412 --> 00:31:54,956 Did he know it was wrong? 521 00:31:55,456 --> 00:31:58,584 Well, here's how I'm sure he knew it was wrong. 522 00:31:58,668 --> 00:32:01,712 He said he knew it was wrong at that time. 523 00:32:02,546 --> 00:32:04,298 Every single one of them. 524 00:32:04,382 --> 00:32:08,260 He took steps for every single one of the charged homicides 525 00:32:08,344 --> 00:32:10,972 to make sure that he wouldn't get caught. 526 00:32:11,055 --> 00:32:14,976 They included putting in fake security cameras 527 00:32:15,059 --> 00:32:18,521 to deter people from breaking in while he was at work. 528 00:32:18,604 --> 00:32:21,399 They included disposing of evidence. 529 00:32:21,482 --> 00:32:25,486 They included pulling the curtains while he's dismembering bodies. 530 00:32:26,404 --> 00:32:29,907 The many, many steps to try to evade detection. 531 00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:32,827 And in order to kill, 532 00:32:32,910 --> 00:32:36,747 he had to overcome his inhibition against it by getting drunk. 533 00:32:38,374 --> 00:32:40,459 All the psychiatrists agreed basically 534 00:32:40,543 --> 00:32:43,045 that he was an alcoholic, necrophilic. 535 00:32:43,129 --> 00:32:47,049 Agreed he knew it was wrong, but disagreed he couldn't control himself. 536 00:32:48,092 --> 00:32:50,886 For me, the trial was very 537 00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:52,513 anxiety-provoking. 538 00:32:53,139 --> 00:32:55,057 I was sitting next to… to Jeff. 539 00:32:55,141 --> 00:32:58,144 When he did have questions, he would talk to me. 540 00:32:59,854 --> 00:33:03,607 Wendy Patrickus played a prominent role to soften Jeffrey Dahmer's image. 541 00:33:04,275 --> 00:33:06,819 Having a young woman sitting there 542 00:33:06,902 --> 00:33:09,321 made Jeffrey Dahmer look a little less threatening. 543 00:33:09,405 --> 00:33:12,158 And I think that was part of the intention to show the jury 544 00:33:12,241 --> 00:33:16,287 that Jeffrey Dahmer was not quite the monster many had made him out to be. 545 00:33:18,622 --> 00:33:21,208 I had issues during the course 546 00:33:21,292 --> 00:33:23,127 of representing Jeffrey Dahmer. 547 00:33:24,086 --> 00:33:27,423 I received death threats from a number of different sources. 548 00:33:30,259 --> 00:33:34,764 There was really only one time I felt like some of the threats became real. 549 00:33:35,931 --> 00:33:39,727 One of the victim's family members, when I was out one night, 550 00:33:39,810 --> 00:33:41,771 came after me with a pool cue 551 00:33:41,854 --> 00:33:43,856 because I was representing Jeff. 552 00:33:44,648 --> 00:33:47,568 I said, "You do understand that's just a job. That's a position." 553 00:33:47,651 --> 00:33:48,986 "I didn't kill your brother." 554 00:33:49,070 --> 00:33:53,532 Uh, she couldn't, or wouldn't, discern the difference between the two. 555 00:33:53,616 --> 00:33:56,494 She just, you know, came after me. 556 00:33:57,203 --> 00:34:00,831 It did cause me to, uh, escalate my concern 557 00:34:00,915 --> 00:34:02,333 during the trial, 558 00:34:02,875 --> 00:34:05,836 and pretty much become a homebody at that point. 559 00:34:10,633 --> 00:34:14,053 Dahmer's father and stepmother came every day to the trial. 560 00:34:14,887 --> 00:34:17,389 And you could tell the trial got to them. 561 00:34:18,057 --> 00:34:21,268 Doctor would be on the stand quoting from his confession, 562 00:34:22,311 --> 00:34:25,606 and it was the most appalling information. 563 00:34:26,857 --> 00:34:28,901 You'd see it on his father's face. 564 00:34:30,444 --> 00:34:33,572 And there Lionel Dahmer sat with Shari, 565 00:34:33,656 --> 00:34:34,824 his second wife, 566 00:34:34,907 --> 00:34:37,868 looking behind his son, remaining behind his son. 567 00:34:41,330 --> 00:34:43,666 The trial went two weeks. 568 00:34:44,291 --> 00:34:46,418 He's out of control. 569 00:34:47,461 --> 00:34:50,381 He could not stop. 570 00:34:50,965 --> 00:34:53,425 He was a runaway train 571 00:34:54,552 --> 00:34:57,263 on a track of madness. 572 00:34:57,847 --> 00:35:00,099 It isn't, "Is he sane or insane?" 573 00:35:00,182 --> 00:35:04,186 It's, "Did he prove to a reasonable certainty that he was insane?" 574 00:35:04,270 --> 00:35:06,397 If he didn't, the answer is no. 575 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,482 You don't have to make a finding that he was sane. 576 00:35:08,566 --> 00:35:11,235 You're not being asked to make a finding that he was sane. 577 00:35:11,318 --> 00:35:12,778 You're being asked to make a finding, 578 00:35:12,862 --> 00:35:15,948 "Did he prove to a reasonable certainty that he was insane?" 579 00:35:16,031 --> 00:35:17,533 That's the issue before you. 580 00:35:18,576 --> 00:35:22,788 After all the testimony was in, the jury went in to deliberate. 581 00:35:23,747 --> 00:35:26,625 Is Dahmer legally not guilty because of mental disease? 582 00:35:26,709 --> 00:35:28,794 That's what the jury must sort out. 583 00:35:28,878 --> 00:35:31,881 I think juries and people in general are often concerned 584 00:35:31,964 --> 00:35:34,133 if someone's found not criminally responsible, 585 00:35:34,216 --> 00:35:36,051 and they go to a mental institution, 586 00:35:36,135 --> 00:35:38,721 that they're gonna come out and hurt people again. 587 00:35:38,804 --> 00:35:44,768 Even if you're successfully treated while you're in a mental institution, 588 00:35:44,852 --> 00:35:48,022 the court would have to sign off before you re-enter the community. 589 00:35:48,981 --> 00:35:52,735 In a case such as Mr. Dahmer's, I find it exceedingly unlikely 590 00:35:52,818 --> 00:35:56,030 that a court would've approved him going back into the community. 591 00:35:56,614 --> 00:35:59,241 Few would place bets on the decision they'll reach. 592 00:35:59,325 --> 00:36:01,035 They're gonna find him insane. 593 00:36:01,118 --> 00:36:03,454 I think they're probably gonna vote that he's sane. 594 00:36:03,537 --> 00:36:05,748 Which way do you think the jury's gonna go? 595 00:36:05,831 --> 00:36:06,832 No clue. 596 00:36:06,916 --> 00:36:09,627 It went to the jury on Friday, and it was late Saturday afternoon 597 00:36:09,710 --> 00:36:11,545 before they came back. 598 00:36:11,629 --> 00:36:15,925 They looked at all the evidence. They were very adamant in their decision. 599 00:36:16,008 --> 00:36:20,137 In a hushed courtroom in Milwaukee today, the jury rendered its decision 600 00:36:20,221 --> 00:36:23,432 in one of the most grisly and widely-followed murder trials 601 00:36:23,515 --> 00:36:24,975 in modern history. 602 00:36:25,059 --> 00:36:27,269 The verdict. Jeffrey Dahmer was sane 603 00:36:27,353 --> 00:36:29,980 when he killed and dismembered men and boys 604 00:36:30,064 --> 00:36:33,734 in a gruesome quest for companionship and sexual gratification. 605 00:36:34,568 --> 00:36:36,153 That's something that troubled me. 606 00:36:37,696 --> 00:36:42,034 If a man who is preoccupied with having sex with corpses, 607 00:36:42,117 --> 00:36:45,037 if a man who's drilling holes in the heads of human beings 608 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,457 to try to keep them alive in a zombie-like state 609 00:36:49,416 --> 00:36:51,543 doesn't have a psychiatric disorder, 610 00:36:51,627 --> 00:36:54,505 then I don't know what we mean by psychiatric disease. 611 00:36:54,588 --> 00:36:56,966 How many people does someone have to eat in Milwaukee 612 00:36:57,049 --> 00:36:59,218 before they think you have a mental disease? 613 00:37:02,137 --> 00:37:04,682 I've been trying cases for 38 years as a DA. 614 00:37:04,765 --> 00:37:06,642 I don't find a… a celebratory feeling. 615 00:37:07,351 --> 00:37:08,894 Seventeen people died. 616 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,939 Seventeen families crushed and destroyed. 617 00:37:12,439 --> 00:37:14,108 There's just no room for elation. 618 00:37:15,067 --> 00:37:17,695 But I would've been crushed if he had come back 619 00:37:17,778 --> 00:37:20,030 and found that he was insane. 620 00:37:21,532 --> 00:37:25,536 Dahmer had no reaction to being found sane. 621 00:37:25,619 --> 00:37:27,705 No reaction whatsoever. 622 00:37:28,414 --> 00:37:29,248 None. 623 00:37:29,999 --> 00:37:32,293 Ms. Dahmer, do you have any comment? 624 00:37:32,376 --> 00:37:33,419 No. 625 00:37:33,502 --> 00:37:34,753 -Mr. Dahmer? -No. 626 00:37:36,088 --> 00:37:38,257 We attempted to talk to Dahmer's grandmother 627 00:37:38,340 --> 00:37:41,510 Catherine this morning, but a sign is already posted on the door 628 00:37:41,593 --> 00:37:45,097 saying she is too weak and too troubled to talk about the case. 629 00:37:45,180 --> 00:37:48,600 As far as the verdict is concerned, it wasn't really very surprising. 630 00:37:48,684 --> 00:37:53,147 But I think he had a mental disease, and he needed help. 631 00:37:57,735 --> 00:38:00,154 Families of his victims wept with relief, 632 00:38:00,237 --> 00:38:03,324 knowing that Dahmer now faces a probable prison sentence 633 00:38:03,407 --> 00:38:05,075 instead of a mental institution. 634 00:38:05,159 --> 00:38:07,828 The case against Jeffrey Dahmer comes to a close today 635 00:38:07,911 --> 00:38:11,165 when he is sentenced later this morning in a Milwaukee courtroom. 636 00:38:11,665 --> 00:38:13,417 What do you expect will happen this morning 637 00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:15,586 in terms of Dahmer's sentencing? 638 00:38:15,669 --> 00:38:17,129 We first have the family speak. 639 00:38:17,212 --> 00:38:20,924 Under our state law, each family has an opportunity to express to the court 640 00:38:21,008 --> 00:38:23,510 the impact of this offense on their family. 641 00:38:23,594 --> 00:38:26,889 I think we'll see highly charged emotional statements by the family. 642 00:38:29,183 --> 00:38:31,894 I'm the mother of Anthony Lee Sears. 643 00:38:33,896 --> 00:38:36,065 And I just wanted to know, 644 00:38:36,148 --> 00:38:40,194 you know, just why would it be my son? 645 00:38:40,819 --> 00:38:44,281 Um, I wanna thank the jury. I wanna thank you, Judge. 646 00:38:44,365 --> 00:38:47,534 And just keep this man off the street, please. 647 00:38:48,994 --> 00:38:54,458 I would like to say to Jeffrey Dahmer that he don't know the pain, the hurt, 648 00:38:54,541 --> 00:38:59,171 the loss, and the mental state that he had put our family in. 649 00:39:00,839 --> 00:39:04,385 I don't wanna ever see my mother have to go through this again! 650 00:39:05,177 --> 00:39:06,428 Never, Jeffrey. 651 00:39:06,929 --> 00:39:09,848 Jeffrey, I hate you, motherfucker! 652 00:39:09,932 --> 00:39:11,475 I hate you! 653 00:39:11,558 --> 00:39:13,560 Jeffrey's out of control! 654 00:39:13,644 --> 00:39:16,438 Don't fuck with me, Jeffrey! I'll kill you, goddamn it! 655 00:39:16,522 --> 00:39:18,482 Look at me, motherfucker! 656 00:39:18,565 --> 00:39:20,776 -Ah! I could kill you! -Lunch and recess. 657 00:39:20,859 --> 00:39:23,904 Fucking kill you, motherfucker! 658 00:39:25,322 --> 00:39:27,449 She was coming across the courtroom at him, 659 00:39:27,533 --> 00:39:29,660 intent, it appeared to me, to attack him. 660 00:39:29,743 --> 00:39:31,328 He was cool. He kept control. 661 00:39:31,412 --> 00:39:33,539 I would've thought he'd jump up. He didn't. 662 00:39:33,622 --> 00:39:37,084 He just sat there. This is Jeffrey Dahmer under stress. 663 00:39:42,005 --> 00:39:44,800 The judge said to Jeffrey, "Is there anything you'd like to say 664 00:39:44,883 --> 00:39:46,802 in addressing the court before I pass judgment?" 665 00:39:46,885 --> 00:39:49,972 This has never been a case of trying to get free. 666 00:39:50,556 --> 00:39:52,516 Frankly, I wanted death for myself. 667 00:39:53,308 --> 00:39:54,768 I hated no one. 668 00:39:55,394 --> 00:39:58,063 I knew I was sick or evil, or both. 669 00:39:58,647 --> 00:40:00,149 Now I believe I was sick. 670 00:40:01,442 --> 00:40:03,569 I take all the blame for what I did. 671 00:40:03,652 --> 00:40:05,154 I hurt many people. 672 00:40:05,237 --> 00:40:08,282 I've hurt my mother and father and stepmother. 673 00:40:08,365 --> 00:40:10,284 I love them all so very much. 674 00:40:11,243 --> 00:40:14,663 I hope that they will find the same peace I am looking for. 675 00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:20,377 This left the judge to hand down the stiffest possible sentence 676 00:40:20,461 --> 00:40:22,504 in a state with no death penalty. 677 00:40:24,256 --> 00:40:27,926 Dahmer was sentenced to 15 consecutive terms of life imprisonment. 678 00:40:28,010 --> 00:40:30,637 -Yes! 679 00:40:35,309 --> 00:40:38,228 Finally they had something to cheer about for the first time 680 00:40:38,312 --> 00:40:41,899 since these family members learned of Jeffrey Dahmer and what he did. 681 00:40:44,193 --> 00:40:45,694 Life goes on. 682 00:40:45,777 --> 00:40:49,031 Maybe what I've learned through this tragedy will help someone else. 683 00:40:49,615 --> 00:40:51,909 And I just thank God for this verdict. 684 00:40:53,035 --> 00:40:57,456 Dahmer identified Steven's picture and was asked how he could be sure who it was. 685 00:40:57,539 --> 00:41:00,459 He told the police, "You always remember your first." 686 00:41:00,542 --> 00:41:03,545 I want him to know that we also remember our first. 687 00:41:03,629 --> 00:41:06,507 Not one day has passed that we've not thought about Steve. 688 00:41:07,966 --> 00:41:11,386 There's a sense of closure in the sense… Especially for the families 689 00:41:11,470 --> 00:41:14,348 that waited years to find out what had happened to their sons. 690 00:41:15,516 --> 00:41:17,392 It's a sad sense of closure, 691 00:41:18,018 --> 00:41:19,269 but it's closure. 692 00:41:26,151 --> 00:41:29,613 Dahmer was sent to Columbia Correctional Facility in Wisconsin. 693 00:41:32,241 --> 00:41:34,368 I dunno what prison systems are like. 694 00:41:34,451 --> 00:41:37,454 I have a picture of a very dreary, gray place. 695 00:41:38,121 --> 00:41:40,541 I was thinking maybe that in prison, 696 00:41:40,624 --> 00:41:44,962 they'll maybe let me do something with growing some kind of a plant. 697 00:41:45,796 --> 00:41:49,883 Uh, I've always had an interest in growing plants. 698 00:41:49,967 --> 00:41:51,760 I had plants at the apartment. 699 00:41:52,970 --> 00:41:55,430 He was put on suicide watch, 700 00:41:55,514 --> 00:41:59,059 so he was placed in a single cell, not in the bullpen. 701 00:41:59,142 --> 00:42:01,353 He told me, "What do I have to look forward to?" 702 00:42:01,436 --> 00:42:04,064 I said, "You know, there's a lot of things that you can do." 703 00:42:04,147 --> 00:42:06,358 "You said you were reading the Bible." 704 00:42:06,441 --> 00:42:08,652 "And you wanted to get back into it." 705 00:42:08,735 --> 00:42:12,072 So he did make those, uh, overt actions 706 00:42:12,155 --> 00:42:16,076 to try and redeem himself in God's eyes. 707 00:42:25,377 --> 00:42:29,923 I got a phone call in 1994 from a minister friend in Milwaukee, 708 00:42:30,007 --> 00:42:31,466 who was in Milwaukee at the time, 709 00:42:31,550 --> 00:42:33,969 saying an inmate wanted to be baptized. 710 00:42:34,469 --> 00:42:36,847 He said, "You might wanna sit down for this one." 711 00:42:36,930 --> 00:42:38,181 "His name is Jeffrey Dahmer." 712 00:42:39,725 --> 00:42:41,727 I was nervous about meeting him. 713 00:42:43,645 --> 00:42:47,858 I'd never been to a prison before. I'd never been to a murderer before. 714 00:42:49,276 --> 00:42:50,902 I was sitting there thinking, "Wow." 715 00:42:50,986 --> 00:42:54,156 "I'm in a room with a guy who's killed a lot of young men." 716 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,116 And I looked at his hands. And his hands… 717 00:42:56,199 --> 00:42:58,785 I thought his hands were relatively small compared to my hands. 718 00:42:58,869 --> 00:43:00,829 With those hands, he strangled men, 719 00:43:00,912 --> 00:43:04,958 and yet here I am talking to him as if, you know, we're just normal people. 720 00:43:05,917 --> 00:43:07,836 I said, "Yes, I'll… I'll baptize you." 721 00:43:07,919 --> 00:43:10,297 That seemed to cause him a great deal of relief. 722 00:43:11,214 --> 00:43:14,259 He says, "Well, I was afraid you'd say, 'You are too evil." 723 00:43:14,343 --> 00:43:17,304 "You are too horrible, too wicked to be baptized.'" 724 00:43:21,642 --> 00:43:23,185 Jeff was brought in. 725 00:43:24,353 --> 00:43:26,229 I pushed his head under the water, 726 00:43:27,189 --> 00:43:30,150 and when he came up, I said, "Welcome to the family of God." 727 00:43:32,361 --> 00:43:34,112 On the day of his baptism, 728 00:43:34,196 --> 00:43:37,032 John Wayne Gacy was executed on that same day. 729 00:43:39,242 --> 00:43:41,870 There was a full solar eclipse as well. 730 00:43:41,953 --> 00:43:46,667 Some tried to read into that some kind of mystical, uh, meaning behind all this. 731 00:43:47,751 --> 00:43:50,879 I met him once a week from that point on for about an hour. 732 00:43:50,962 --> 00:43:53,048 It was a matter of growing in his faith, 733 00:43:53,131 --> 00:43:56,760 understanding what his faith was about, and then continue each week. 734 00:43:57,260 --> 00:43:59,680 Jeffrey Dahmer lives in that building back there. 735 00:43:59,763 --> 00:44:01,807 Disciplinary Segregation Two. 736 00:44:01,890 --> 00:44:04,434 Now, he has a job, mopping and sweeping up floors, 737 00:44:04,518 --> 00:44:08,438 and officials hope eventually he'll be able to mix with the general population. 738 00:44:09,940 --> 00:44:13,026 On the last day I saw him, it was the day before Thanksgiving. 739 00:44:14,236 --> 00:44:17,531 He gave me a card, and he underlined the word "friend." 740 00:44:17,614 --> 00:44:20,617 It indicated that, uh, he was beginning to understand 741 00:44:20,701 --> 00:44:22,911 what friendship was for the very first time. 742 00:44:25,664 --> 00:44:27,791 After he was in prison for a year, 743 00:44:27,874 --> 00:44:29,584 I went and visited him. 744 00:44:29,668 --> 00:44:33,004 He said, "I'm not gonna do this anymore. I can't just sit here in isolation." 745 00:44:33,088 --> 00:44:36,091 He said, "If I can't interact with other people, 746 00:44:36,758 --> 00:44:39,344 that's gonna be worse than if I died." 747 00:44:40,721 --> 00:44:44,141 He said, "I'm gonna be asked to be put in general population." 748 00:44:44,224 --> 00:44:47,102 I said, "Jeff, you know, you're gonna be dead shortly." 749 00:44:47,185 --> 00:44:50,397 "Because everybody had such strong, 750 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,357 strong views 751 00:44:52,441 --> 00:44:54,484 and opinions about your actions." 752 00:44:55,736 --> 00:44:57,612 "We don't need any further loss of life." 753 00:44:59,990 --> 00:45:02,784 I tell you, Wendy. I don't think I'm gonna be able to keep 754 00:45:02,868 --> 00:45:04,870 a level head. I really don't. 755 00:45:05,746 --> 00:45:07,414 Because I've always been one 756 00:45:07,497 --> 00:45:10,584 who needs stimulation, mental stimulation. 757 00:45:12,461 --> 00:45:13,587 Uh… 758 00:45:13,670 --> 00:45:16,256 And I just don't have the patience that I should. 759 00:45:25,474 --> 00:45:28,018 I had a very hard time that day leaving. 760 00:45:31,813 --> 00:45:33,899 And I just said, "Please don't do this." 761 00:45:35,901 --> 00:45:38,236 "You're just not gonna make it." 762 00:46:00,592 --> 00:46:04,638 In November of 1994, while he was in the prison, he was at the work detail. 763 00:46:06,014 --> 00:46:08,016 He and a man named Jesse Anderson 764 00:46:08,099 --> 00:46:10,811 were assigned to clean up lockers in the gym. 765 00:46:13,021 --> 00:46:15,899 Christopher Scarver, a man who my office had convicted of murder 766 00:46:15,982 --> 00:46:18,485 a number of years earlier, was on the same work detail. 767 00:46:19,194 --> 00:46:21,780 He took the barbell from the exercise room 768 00:46:22,489 --> 00:46:25,283 and bludgeoned Dahmer over the head with that weapon. 769 00:46:25,367 --> 00:46:28,203 The information I received from the prison was 770 00:46:28,286 --> 00:46:30,914 he did not resist the attack. 771 00:46:32,666 --> 00:46:37,045 The irony in all of this is that the first time that Mr. Dahmer killed 772 00:46:37,128 --> 00:46:39,840 was when he picked up some weight lifting equipment 773 00:46:39,923 --> 00:46:42,133 and took the life of Steven Hicks. 774 00:46:43,051 --> 00:46:44,845 The whole thing came full cycle. 775 00:46:48,598 --> 00:46:51,935 He was in general population within a year of when he was killed. 776 00:46:52,477 --> 00:46:54,855 It was surprising that Dahmer lived that long. 777 00:46:56,982 --> 00:46:58,733 Dahmer's father Lionel joins us. 778 00:46:58,817 --> 00:47:00,986 Tell me, you told me that you were at work 779 00:47:01,069 --> 00:47:03,780 when your wife called to say your son had been injured. 780 00:47:03,864 --> 00:47:05,407 What then happened after that? 781 00:47:06,157 --> 00:47:09,953 She had called and… and hit me with the news 782 00:47:10,036 --> 00:47:13,206 that… that Jeff had passed away 783 00:47:13,290 --> 00:47:15,125 that morning about ten o'clock. 784 00:47:15,208 --> 00:47:17,544 I just couldn't believe it. I… 785 00:47:18,295 --> 00:47:21,089 I started sobbing and… and, uh, shaking. 786 00:47:22,090 --> 00:47:23,383 I was very upset. 787 00:47:24,175 --> 00:47:26,052 You can't help but become close with somebody 788 00:47:26,136 --> 00:47:29,097 when you spend that many days, weeks, months with them. 789 00:47:29,180 --> 00:47:33,602 Some suspected that the prison system had deliberately undertaken 790 00:47:33,685 --> 00:47:35,103 to execute Dahmer, 791 00:47:35,186 --> 00:47:37,063 and the governor, very wisely, 792 00:47:37,147 --> 00:47:40,692 immediately ordered a commission to investigate it. 793 00:47:40,775 --> 00:47:44,905 This prison has nearly 3 dozen video monitors, electronic steel doors, 794 00:47:44,988 --> 00:47:47,782 yet somehow 25-year-old Christopher Scarver 795 00:47:47,866 --> 00:47:51,036 allegedly managed to elude the elaborate security system. 796 00:47:51,119 --> 00:47:54,497 One went to answer a phone call the other was listening to music. 797 00:47:54,581 --> 00:47:56,708 It was ridiculous no one was around. 798 00:47:57,542 --> 00:47:59,502 I used to work in prison. 799 00:48:00,170 --> 00:48:03,632 We watched them bathe. We watched them eat and sleep. 800 00:48:03,715 --> 00:48:05,717 We watched them pee and poo. 801 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,261 Any time they moved, we were there. 802 00:48:08,345 --> 00:48:12,057 Dahmer was one of the most celebrated prisoners in the western hemisphere. 803 00:48:13,266 --> 00:48:17,395 How is it that so prominent a prisoner could be executed in the prison? 804 00:48:19,022 --> 00:48:22,776 There was a study, and, uh, the commission said there was no crime involved, 805 00:48:22,859 --> 00:48:26,738 that there was no conspiracy, no inside job to get rid of Dahmer. 806 00:48:26,821 --> 00:48:30,700 They have given him good, fair, uh, care. 807 00:48:31,368 --> 00:48:34,496 They've guarded him. Uh, they knew the potential dangers. 808 00:48:34,579 --> 00:48:36,247 It's not the prison's fault. 809 00:48:36,331 --> 00:48:38,750 Jeff, for all that he was a killer, 810 00:48:38,833 --> 00:48:40,502 could never defend himself. 811 00:48:42,087 --> 00:48:44,589 I… I could not celebrate when he was killed. 812 00:48:45,715 --> 00:48:49,427 I can understand why some might, but I felt nothing but sadness. 813 00:48:50,261 --> 00:48:52,305 A sad story with a sad ending. 814 00:48:59,229 --> 00:49:02,107 Jeffrey Dahmer was a very complex person. 815 00:49:04,234 --> 00:49:07,362 He was a very hurting individual 816 00:49:07,445 --> 00:49:10,615 that felt soulless, felt empty. 817 00:49:13,576 --> 00:49:17,038 Did it enter your mind that it seemed a waste to destroy somebody 818 00:49:17,122 --> 00:49:20,333 who looked so nice while they were still alive? 819 00:49:20,417 --> 00:49:22,377 Yeah, it did. 820 00:49:23,169 --> 00:49:25,505 I felt that it was… 821 00:49:26,965 --> 00:49:31,344 a waste that I couldn't keep them longer without having to kill them, 822 00:49:31,428 --> 00:49:34,723 but I didn't know any other way to make them stay 823 00:49:34,806 --> 00:49:36,599 and to control them. 824 00:49:36,683 --> 00:49:38,476 I had no choice in the matter. 825 00:49:40,020 --> 00:49:43,857 Did you, uh, feel emotions of any kind? 826 00:49:44,482 --> 00:49:47,277 I felt a lot of… 827 00:49:47,819 --> 00:49:49,571 a great deal of remorse. 828 00:49:54,576 --> 00:49:56,786 I don't think Jeffrey ever found out 829 00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:59,039 a good enough answer for him 830 00:49:59,122 --> 00:50:01,332 as to why he did what he did. 831 00:50:03,251 --> 00:50:06,921 He said, "Through all of these forensic doctors I'm talking to, 832 00:50:07,005 --> 00:50:09,716 if one of them could give me a reason why." 833 00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:12,719 "I really would like to know." 834 00:50:12,802 --> 00:50:16,389 But with his death, I knew he would never find out why. 835 00:50:18,224 --> 00:50:21,061 We can easily just say this is an evil monster. 836 00:50:21,144 --> 00:50:24,606 "Why'd he do it?" "'Cause he's evil." "How do we know?" "'Cause he did it." 837 00:50:24,689 --> 00:50:27,317 It's just a label masquerading as an explanation. 838 00:50:28,151 --> 00:50:31,488 There were still things that I wanted to know about him, 839 00:50:31,571 --> 00:50:33,782 things I wanted to talk to him about. 840 00:50:34,699 --> 00:50:36,951 It was a waste of an opportunity 841 00:50:37,035 --> 00:50:40,830 for people to study what made him tick. 842 00:50:42,290 --> 00:50:45,085 They were horrific, terrible things that he did, 843 00:50:45,168 --> 00:50:48,338 but if he really couldn't control his conduct, 844 00:50:48,421 --> 00:50:50,048 let's find out what's going on here. 845 00:50:50,131 --> 00:50:51,966 Maybe we can all learn something as a society. 846 00:50:59,099 --> 00:51:01,059 Jeffrey Dahmer, he didn't care. 847 00:51:01,142 --> 00:51:03,561 He had no sympathy for them. 848 00:51:03,645 --> 00:51:05,021 He had no remorse. 849 00:51:07,899 --> 00:51:11,528 And far as I know, he never felt bad for the people he harmed, 850 00:51:12,028 --> 00:51:13,613 all the damage he did. 851 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,036 Dahmer's victims had very little recourse in the end. 852 00:51:21,371 --> 00:51:23,373 And the family members who had survived, 853 00:51:23,456 --> 00:51:26,835 there was very little to compensate them for their losses. 854 00:51:27,418 --> 00:51:32,298 But what was left was Dahmer's property that had been taken out of his apartment. 855 00:51:33,174 --> 00:51:34,717 That's when a judge ordered 856 00:51:34,801 --> 00:51:38,138 that Dahmer's possessions, including his instruments of death, 857 00:51:38,221 --> 00:51:40,473 be auctioned off to the highest bidder. 858 00:51:40,557 --> 00:51:43,434 The proceeds would be divided among the victims' families. 859 00:51:44,394 --> 00:51:48,356 A philanthropist purchased everything on behalf of the victims. 860 00:51:48,439 --> 00:51:51,025 Milwaukee businessman Joe Zilber 861 00:51:51,109 --> 00:51:53,444 launched an effort to buy everything and destroy it. 862 00:51:53,528 --> 00:51:56,281 Zilber reached out to fellow business leaders, politicians, 863 00:51:56,364 --> 00:51:58,032 and prominent Milwaukeeans. 864 00:51:58,116 --> 00:52:01,578 They raised $400,000 and purchased all the items. 865 00:52:02,078 --> 00:52:05,206 They're upset that a situation would have to occur 866 00:52:05,290 --> 00:52:07,125 where these terrible, terrible items 867 00:52:07,208 --> 00:52:09,961 would go on a public auction block 868 00:52:10,044 --> 00:52:13,506 in a very highly visible, 869 00:52:13,590 --> 00:52:15,008 worldwide way. 870 00:52:15,508 --> 00:52:18,761 The items were then loaded into a garbage truck 871 00:52:18,845 --> 00:52:21,598 and taken to an undisclosed landfill 872 00:52:21,681 --> 00:52:22,891 in Illinois. 873 00:52:28,104 --> 00:52:31,733 He took lives for a few hours of sexual pleasure 874 00:52:32,317 --> 00:52:36,529 of persons that had done him nothing evil, or toward which he would have no ill will. 875 00:52:36,613 --> 00:52:38,156 He took their life. 876 00:52:39,115 --> 00:52:40,408 That's the tragedy. 877 00:52:41,451 --> 00:52:43,745 I would hope the world would forget about Dahmer, 878 00:52:43,828 --> 00:52:46,414 and he would become a part of the ash bin of history. 879 00:52:52,837 --> 00:52:55,632 All the tenants living in the Oxford Apartments, 880 00:52:55,715 --> 00:52:59,177 we held a meeting to decide on what we were gonna do. 881 00:52:59,761 --> 00:53:03,306 And we decided that we didn't want to live there anymore. 882 00:53:07,268 --> 00:53:09,145 It will give me relief 883 00:53:09,771 --> 00:53:12,273 to know that the young men that died here, 884 00:53:12,357 --> 00:53:15,485 their souls and their body, will seem at rest with this down. 885 00:53:15,568 --> 00:53:17,987 So the Oxford will be razed, 886 00:53:18,071 --> 00:53:21,699 and it is hoped the tragic memories born here can be buried forever. 887 00:53:24,994 --> 00:53:28,122 What many call a symbol of pain and senseless violence 888 00:53:28,206 --> 00:53:30,959 will no longer be so visible to the city of Milwaukee 889 00:53:31,042 --> 00:53:33,795 and the families of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims. 890 00:53:38,007 --> 00:53:41,386 I can understand Milwaukee wants to put this case behind it. 891 00:53:41,469 --> 00:53:43,721 I think it's important, though, to understand 892 00:53:43,805 --> 00:53:46,849 that there are people out there who do horrific things. 893 00:53:48,518 --> 00:53:49,811 Evil is real. 894 00:53:51,145 --> 00:53:53,856 Jeffrey Dahmer not only killed his victims, 895 00:53:53,940 --> 00:53:55,733 but he hurt a community. 896 00:53:56,317 --> 00:54:00,655 The pain of Jeffrey Dahmer's killings hurt Milwaukee. 897 00:54:01,447 --> 00:54:04,659 The… The families were people that we saw on TV. 898 00:54:05,243 --> 00:54:08,079 The neighborhood was a neighborhood that we knew. 899 00:54:11,749 --> 00:54:14,419 This was a case that exposed 900 00:54:15,003 --> 00:54:16,796 a lot of racial issues, 901 00:54:16,879 --> 00:54:19,173 a lot of different biases, 902 00:54:19,757 --> 00:54:23,011 both in the police department and the community that is Milwaukee. 903 00:54:25,221 --> 00:54:29,142 What Dahmer was doing was he was feeding on the undetectable 904 00:54:29,225 --> 00:54:32,395 in our community, and he was protected by the institutions 905 00:54:32,478 --> 00:54:36,441 that were supposed to be protecting these weakest, most vulnerable people. 906 00:54:36,524 --> 00:54:39,360 He preyed on them, and the police did not protect them. 907 00:54:42,405 --> 00:54:46,743 Whatever we learn, it's not gonna be worth what these families have suffered, 908 00:54:46,826 --> 00:54:48,578 but let's not just throw it away. 909 00:54:49,454 --> 00:54:51,664 It's important to get this right, 910 00:54:52,332 --> 00:54:56,794 to talk about this in a way that gives dignity to these victims. 911 00:54:58,546 --> 00:55:02,508 We can't go back and fix what happened back in 1991 912 00:55:02,592 --> 00:55:05,136 and prior to that when he started killing people. 913 00:55:08,890 --> 00:55:10,433 What you can do, though, 914 00:55:10,516 --> 00:55:13,686 is have people talk about what happened, 915 00:55:14,437 --> 00:55:19,859 so we don't fall into the same traps and shed light on it, 916 00:55:19,942 --> 00:55:24,947 so the crime that we see on a daily basis stops or slows down. 917 00:55:26,324 --> 00:55:28,409 The poverty, the high crime, 918 00:55:29,077 --> 00:55:32,080 the fact that we don't care about the disadvantaged, 919 00:55:32,163 --> 00:55:35,792 all those things provided a playground for him to operate in. 920 00:55:36,626 --> 00:55:39,962 To prevent something like that from happening again, 921 00:55:40,046 --> 00:55:42,215 you have to address these issues 922 00:55:43,383 --> 00:55:44,384 today. 923 00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:48,596 There's always gonna be that pain, 924 00:55:48,679 --> 00:55:50,640 that remembrance of what happened. 925 00:55:50,723 --> 00:55:53,893 We're always gonna do the "what-ifs." 926 00:55:53,976 --> 00:55:55,645 You know? Where would they be now? 927 00:55:55,728 --> 00:55:59,690 What kind of life would they have had? You're always gonna miss that person. 928 00:56:02,193 --> 00:56:04,529 Humanizing the individuals 929 00:56:04,612 --> 00:56:06,447 who lost their lives 930 00:56:06,531 --> 00:56:08,032 is important. 931 00:56:08,533 --> 00:56:11,786 Recognizing that each one of those young men 932 00:56:12,453 --> 00:56:14,205 had a mother, 933 00:56:14,288 --> 00:56:15,873 a father, 934 00:56:15,957 --> 00:56:17,917 had sisters and brothers 935 00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,254 that loved them and still miss them. 936 00:56:26,300 --> 00:56:29,929 They were just trying to do 937 00:56:30,012 --> 00:56:32,098 what we're all trying to do. 938 00:56:32,181 --> 00:56:33,558 Survive. 939 00:56:34,308 --> 00:56:37,645 Live and enjoy the life that they'd been given. 940 00:56:38,521 --> 00:56:40,898 They had a life 941 00:56:40,982 --> 00:56:43,067 that they loved. 942 00:56:43,818 --> 00:56:47,280 I think it's important to tell their story. 943 00:56:48,614 --> 00:56:50,867 Nobody deserves to die like that.