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We find that people steal for, really,
four reasons.
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The first is because they have to.
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The second is that you've found a way.
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The third,
and this is where it starts to escalate,
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is that you are getting away with it.
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And the fourth is
that if you are caught, the punishment...
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is acceptable to you.
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[reporter]
...shockwaves in corporate South Africa.
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[reporter]
There were accounting irregularities...
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[reporter] ...accounting irregularities...
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Insider trading...
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[reporter] ...and possible tax fraud.
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The South Africa retail giant lost
billions from its market value
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on the JSE and in Frankfurt.
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[reporter] Dark days lie ahead
for Steinhoff and its CEO, Markus Jooste.
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[reporter] Investors want answers.
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[reporter] Jooste will also most likely
face criminal charges.
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[Markus Jooste] I never lied
about the activities of the company
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as the allegation was made.
Obviously they're pointing fingers at me.
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[cellphone vibrating]
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[message alert]
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So it emerged that a few weeks before
that moment in December 2017
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Markus Jooste had sent a message to four
of his closest friends saying that
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what you need to do
is probably sell your shares right now.
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[message alert]
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That falls within the classic definition
of insider trading.
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You know that something damaging
is coming down the line.
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You know this if you're Markus Jooste
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because you are the cause
of what's happening.
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He warned his driver.
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He warned Ockie Oosthuizen
and a few others to sell their shares.
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That's the easiest thing
to prosecute him on.
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But it's a criminal thing.
The Hawks could arrest him on that.
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This is a week before it collapsed,
because he knew this was gonna collapse.
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That's the crazy part of it.
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[reporter1] It was like a storm
tearing through the JSE.
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The international retailers announced
that its CEO, Markus Jooste, has resigned.
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The news caused the company's share price
to crash over 60%.
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The immediate reaction
in Stellenbosch was much more acute.
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Or, the shocked reaction, I suppose,
was much more acute
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than in the rest of the country.
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Because by that stage, Steinhoff
had already infiltrated this town
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to such a degree that their logo
pretty much was everywhere.
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For years, their shareholders
may have enjoyed fat dividends,
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but for Steinhoff,
the chickens are coming home to roost.
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Already people are talking about Steinhoff
as Africa's Enron.
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[Pieter du Toit] A town which prides
itself on being a town for the elite
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very quickly saw,
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"We need to create distance between
ourselves, Jooste, and Steinhoff."
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All the hoardings
and the advertising boards
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was very swiftly removed
and relegated to a storage facility.
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So, Stellenbosch saw it's not temporary.
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This is done and dusted.
This is permanent.
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[Fifi Peters] Just a week ago,
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Steinhoff was challenging world
furniture giant IKEA for dominance.
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Now it has all gone to dust.
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But for the old money, there was a certain
degree of schadenfreude.
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Even though a lot of them owned Steinhoff
shares, and even though a lot of them
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enjoyed the hospitality
of Markus Jooste quite often, you know.
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I think there was some duplicity around
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some of these
old Stellenbosch moneyed classes,
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people saying,
[clicks tongue] "I told you so."
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I've lost 30 years of my work.
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Will you sue him?
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Well, you know,
that's part of the dicey things.
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I wait until the facts are on the table,
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and then all the actions will be taken
that are necessary.
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-Thank you very much, sir. All the best.
-My pleasure. Go well, bye-bye.
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[Fifi Peters]
It's been a very expensive week for Wiese.
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He lost $2.1 billion in one day.
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His net worth has gone down from
nearly $6 billion to less than a billion.
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He can't feel too good
about having lost R59 billion
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less whatever
he's recovered in recent settlements.
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Most of what was raised in 2009
actually materialized.
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[director]
How did you feel personally at the time?
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I guess at the end of the day
I felt vindicated.
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It's about the right result
at the end of the day.
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And the right result
was that Markus Jooste stepped down
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as CEO of Steinhoff for things
that he shouldn't have been doing.
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It's in my blood, doing the right thing,
and I strive to do that.
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I don't always achieve what I should
and we all make mistakes along the way.
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But ultimately, doing the right thing
is what it's all about.
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[Jean Pierre Verster] So on one hand,
one feels good, if you do analysis
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and your analysis pans out
and it shows that you were correct.
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On the other side, I knew that
a lot of people would lose a lot of money,
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so there's no joy
when the share price falls that sharply.
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I was relieved
that I could at least protect
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the value of the investors in my fund
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and make some money
from the fall in the share price.
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[director] How much money did you make
on short selling Steinhoff?
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[Jean Pierre Verster]
We made roughly R9 million.
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But there was definitely gonna
be more pain
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versus those that made money from
the incident, and I was aware of that.
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To this day
we don't really know what transpired...
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other than the fact that we were told
the share price,
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as supported
by various professional bodies
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was fairly priced.
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If we knew that there would be
an event in the future of the business
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that would drop that share price
from R75 to R5,
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we would obviously
never have done that deal.
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I hope no one would have done a deal.
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[director] You did your deal based on a
share price that was a house of cards.
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So they say,
and that's how it stands today.
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I think what was particularly aggrieving
to us is that we weren't paid at all.
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Bernard Mostert joins us now.
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There's four years of litigation.
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It's a case of trying to find your way
through the legal Gordian Knot.
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One of the reasons
why we have litigated so aggressively
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is that there must be accountability
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and there must be recourse
for events of this nature.
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[Braam van Huyssteen]
It wasn't only about me.
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I had a team,
and that's what concerned me most.
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[Landezwa Dulaze] Braam is the main
shareholder who established the business,
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but we all contributed to the business.
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So we felt, as staff,
that we were also defrauded.
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I believe there's been crime
that has been committed here.
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We're not the kind of a team that sits
there and wait for something to happen.
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[Bernard Mostert] We have people in the
business who've been with us a long time.
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And for them to hear, A, "What you were
promised you're not gonna get,"
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and, B, "Your mentor and your founder
has been defrauded."
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Very, very difficult to stomach.
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We did have the resources
to go full steam ahead
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once we knew that what was promised to us
wasn't what it was.
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[Rob Rose] There were smaller guys,
various investors,
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that swapped a stake in a fast-growing
company with good prospects
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for something
that ultimately turned out to be a mirage.
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So, a lot of the guys who
had shares in this growing company
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were then left
with something pretty worthless.
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In total I lost quite a few million from
Steinhoff, which is really a lot of money.
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Hard-earned money that my wife and I
worked for in our various businesses
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throughout the 50 years
of being an entrepreneur.
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When things go wrong,
it's human nature to play the blame game.
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Steinhoff's case is no different.
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Questions have been asked about
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how billionaire Christo Wiese,
and the entire Steinhoff board,
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did not know what was going on.
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These are the kind of people
who we, as the public,
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believe know what they're doing
when they're managing our money.
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It's not only Christo Wiese
and the board and the auditors.
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It's analysts, investors, asset managers,
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the PIC, who was the second biggest
shareholder in Steinhoff
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for a number of years.
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The PIC is then actually
the main investment agency
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for the government employment fund.
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And all people working for the government,
the state officials,
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and the pensioners
are co-owners of that fund.
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Steinhoff was one of
the big organizations in which
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the PIC invested in order to grow the fund
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to make sure that the benefits
could be paid to pensioners.
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The Federation would like to assure
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00:10:36,523 --> 00:10:41,163
government employee pension fund members
and pensioners
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that their funds are fully protected
based on the fact
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in the beginning,
the benefits are set out in law.
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Market fluctuations do not affect
the quantum of the pension benefits.
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We essentially
have two types of pension funds.
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There is a pension fund where you put
in your money and you hope for the best.
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We refer to that as a defined contribution
fund because you are only told
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how much you need to put in,
which is your contribution.
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We are hoping that over the life
of your employment then,
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though the pension fund contributions
are invested in a manner
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that leaves you better off.
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On the other hand, we then have something
referred to as a defined benefit fund,
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which is one that simply says
that if you work for so many years
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and your salary is XYZ, when you
eventually retire on a particular date,
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this is how much you're going to get.
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00:11:29,003 --> 00:11:34,043
So the government employee pension
fund is a defined benefit model.
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Under a defined benefit scheme,
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the biggest risk that you face
is that at the point in time
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when your employees have to retire,
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the money that's available
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may not be sufficient
to meet the commitments that you've made.
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Then, obviously, somebody has to step in
and top up whatever that deficit might be,
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and in this case, it happens to be
the South African taxpayer.
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The long-term effect is the big problem.
It's going to be a complete disaster.
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[Zwelakhe Mnguni] There are smaller
pension funds that were invested.
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00:12:06,962 --> 00:12:10,643
Even my pension fund, wherever it is,
it would have been affected.
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00:12:16,322 --> 00:12:20,363
And if you think about widows and orphans
and security guards,
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00:12:20,363 --> 00:12:25,403
and, you know, I'm an ex-security guard
and actually those people,
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they've got no means,
even if it was R5 000...
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They've got no means of recovering
that R5 000.
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It may be tiny amounts in absolute terms,
but relative to what those people own,
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it's significant.
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00:12:37,602 --> 00:12:41,922
There is a bit of an emotional connection
to me that I know how it feels
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00:12:41,922 --> 00:12:47,363
and I know how difficult it is for them
every day to try and make their day wage.
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00:12:49,883 --> 00:12:56,003
I worked for six years as a security guard
and I saved up for university,
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and I knew that I had a passion
for financial markets.
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And yeah, that's where I come from.
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There were defenceless people
who are sweeping the streets,
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00:13:09,922 --> 00:13:14,163
working for the municipality, and now
they're caught up in the Steinhoff thing.
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And it was particularly for that reason
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00:13:16,602 --> 00:13:19,163
that I stood up and said,
"I'm going to the police
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00:13:19,163 --> 00:13:24,722
and I must give the police the evidence
that I, together with the team,
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00:13:24,722 --> 00:13:28,123
we have been saying
there is something wrong here."
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00:13:28,962 --> 00:13:32,483
So I felt that by going to the police
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00:13:32,483 --> 00:13:35,962
it would actually give us some retribution
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00:13:35,962 --> 00:13:38,682
for the investors, for South Africa.
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00:13:42,842 --> 00:13:45,722
[Rob Rose] What happened at Steinhoff,
did it hit you financially?
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00:13:45,722 --> 00:13:50,123
It was very bad. Everything is gone.
The big money is gone.
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00:13:53,602 --> 00:13:57,283
So that was an absolute
uncomfortable for me
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00:13:57,283 --> 00:14:00,802
and for my family,
to tell to my family what is there.
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00:14:00,802 --> 00:14:05,163
For me Steinhoff is finished,
I have nothing to do with that.
202
00:14:07,483 --> 00:14:12,842
You see, with my business I was never home
203
00:14:12,842 --> 00:14:15,483
to develop this company
in the whole world.
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00:14:16,722 --> 00:14:21,483
I think that is the truth. But now that
time is over. Now I have time enough.
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00:14:22,003 --> 00:14:26,763
And I'm a happy man
with 85 years to survive.
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00:14:26,763 --> 00:14:28,363
And I want to have sport.
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00:14:28,363 --> 00:14:31,842
I want to have friendship
or to stay with people together.
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00:14:31,842 --> 00:14:34,202
That is the end of my life.
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00:14:35,322 --> 00:14:38,403
Markus... I don't know what he's doing.
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00:14:38,403 --> 00:14:43,842
I only know that in South Africa,
all the big MDs in these companies,
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00:14:43,842 --> 00:14:46,523
these people have no contact with Markus.
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00:14:50,003 --> 00:14:54,602
After December 2017, when Markus resigns,
he retreats to Hermanus.
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00:14:57,043 --> 00:14:58,403
In the months after the crash,
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00:14:58,403 --> 00:15:01,403
Steinhoff was scrambling hard
to figure out how to survive.
215
00:15:02,043 --> 00:15:05,483
For a few days, Christo Wiese
took the reins as acting CEO
216
00:15:05,483 --> 00:15:08,003
but soon resigned entirely from the board
when it became clear
217
00:15:08,003 --> 00:15:10,962
that he was going
to sue the company for what he lost.
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00:15:10,962 --> 00:15:14,283
Heather Sonn is then appointed
as chair of Steinhoff
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00:15:14,283 --> 00:15:17,163
to, I suppose, clean the thing up.
220
00:15:19,003 --> 00:15:23,123
She had a formidable track record working
in New York and various other places,
221
00:15:23,123 --> 00:15:25,842
and as an investment banker
she knew her way around finance.
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00:15:25,842 --> 00:15:30,243
So after they appointed the new board,
Christo Weise, Heather Sonn,
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00:15:30,243 --> 00:15:33,802
and a few others go to Parliament
to explain what has happened at Steinhoff.
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00:15:42,363 --> 00:15:45,643
On the first day
that I was asked to take this position,
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00:15:45,643 --> 00:15:52,243
I asked for a picture of the person
who lost the most, the biggest loser.
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00:15:52,243 --> 00:15:57,202
We couldn't find a picture, but that is
the picture that I keep in my mind.
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00:15:57,202 --> 00:16:03,922
And as long as there is hope that we can
get to some return for that individual,
228
00:16:03,922 --> 00:16:08,163
those sets of individuals,
we will not stop trying.
229
00:16:08,163 --> 00:16:13,243
People and households lost money.
My own father lost money,
230
00:16:13,243 --> 00:16:15,123
a significant amount of money.
231
00:16:15,123 --> 00:16:20,483
And so it was very clear that there were
going to be significant consequences.
232
00:16:22,523 --> 00:16:24,163
I thought very strongly at the time
233
00:16:24,163 --> 00:16:28,363
Parliament has to be, sort of,
tough on crime in the public sector,
234
00:16:28,363 --> 00:16:32,682
but also tough on crime
in the private sector,
235
00:16:32,682 --> 00:16:39,403
and needed to start
to scrutinize what indeed had happened.
236
00:16:39,403 --> 00:16:42,842
Your version, essentially,
was that Markus Jooste
237
00:16:42,842 --> 00:16:47,322
perpetrated a massive fraud
all on his own,
238
00:16:47,322 --> 00:16:50,442
and nobody knew anything about it,
239
00:16:50,442 --> 00:16:53,682
least of all the non-executive directors.
240
00:16:53,682 --> 00:16:58,763
It's a lot of, can I put it gently?
Waffle. Really, it's disappointing.
241
00:16:59,722 --> 00:17:02,523
It's bordering on demoralizing, actually.
242
00:17:02,523 --> 00:17:05,963
And we feel that
you're not fully appreciating
243
00:17:05,963 --> 00:17:08,203
the gravity of what's at issue here.
244
00:17:08,203 --> 00:17:11,362
[Louis du Preez]
Heather and I were the punching bags.
245
00:17:11,362 --> 00:17:14,443
We were the ones that were shouted
and screamed at
246
00:17:14,443 --> 00:17:17,043
because we were the face of the company.
247
00:17:22,882 --> 00:17:25,602
It got quite personal at times,
248
00:17:25,602 --> 00:17:30,322
and people taking out their frustration
on you personally.
249
00:17:30,322 --> 00:17:35,082
It's stuff that got said
in affidavits and in court.
250
00:17:35,082 --> 00:17:37,923
Now, we all know that's part of the game,
251
00:17:37,923 --> 00:17:43,243
but it's, um... It's hard, personally,
and it's quite hard on the family.
252
00:17:45,122 --> 00:17:48,443
The immediate task
was just to try and stabilize everything.
253
00:17:48,443 --> 00:17:53,882
And no shareholder is going to be prepared
to keep their shares
254
00:17:53,882 --> 00:17:57,923
in your company without financials.
255
00:17:57,923 --> 00:18:04,322
And here embarks the process
to try and get new financials in place.
256
00:18:04,322 --> 00:18:06,763
That was part of the reason
257
00:18:06,763 --> 00:18:11,642
why we embarked
with a PWC forensic investigation.
258
00:18:12,683 --> 00:18:17,802
I and the management
team have weekly contact with PWC.
259
00:18:17,802 --> 00:18:21,483
In fact, I've got two calls
a week, set up with them.
260
00:18:21,483 --> 00:18:26,283
At the current moment, there's more than
a hundred people of PWC
261
00:18:26,283 --> 00:18:28,723
that works on this assignment
across the world.
262
00:18:28,723 --> 00:18:34,043
The costs for this company
in employing PWC is significant.
263
00:18:34,043 --> 00:18:37,043
At the moment it runs north
of R200 million.
264
00:18:38,082 --> 00:18:41,963
We had the unfortunate position
that Mr Jooste
265
00:18:41,963 --> 00:18:45,923
wasn't around at the time
because he resigned.
266
00:18:45,923 --> 00:18:49,243
Did Markus Jooste, in your view,
ever lie to you,
267
00:18:49,243 --> 00:18:52,602
mislead you, or do you think, use you?
268
00:18:52,602 --> 00:18:56,203
I do believe that there was
a limited sharing of information
269
00:18:56,203 --> 00:18:58,243
from Mr Jooste to myself.
270
00:18:58,243 --> 00:19:01,082
You must bear in mind that,
at least in my view,
271
00:19:01,082 --> 00:19:04,802
this practice commenced
a number of years ago.
272
00:19:05,523 --> 00:19:09,162
So therefore, if you grow
that false profit every year, no person,
273
00:19:09,162 --> 00:19:13,122
no auditor, no analyst will certainly just
by looking at the numbers, tell you,
274
00:19:13,122 --> 00:19:17,003
"But here's something that changes
suddenly this year, here's false income!"
275
00:19:17,003 --> 00:19:20,923
Because it started so long ago and just
every year it gets increased a little bit.
276
00:19:21,362 --> 00:19:23,483
From my side, I'm also deeply saddened
277
00:19:23,483 --> 00:19:27,362
with the events that happened at Steinhoff
and all the money that was lost,
278
00:19:27,362 --> 00:19:31,283
like the majority of people involved
in trying to save this business.
279
00:19:31,923 --> 00:19:36,003
From my side, I also do not think
I did anything deliberately wrong.
280
00:19:36,003 --> 00:19:38,162
[Rob Rose] Ben la Grange,
Steinhoff's former CFO,
281
00:19:38,162 --> 00:19:40,923
was left in the lurch
when Jooste quit and disappeared.
282
00:19:42,082 --> 00:19:43,763
He was left to flounder in Parliament,
283
00:19:43,763 --> 00:19:46,802
faced a series of questions
to which he just didn't have answers.
284
00:19:47,763 --> 00:19:49,642
Ben was one of Markus's
most loyal lieutenants,
285
00:19:49,642 --> 00:19:52,642
but when the going got tough,
Jooste left him in the cold.
286
00:19:53,802 --> 00:19:58,122
PWC released the report just after
the close of the markets last Friday,
287
00:19:58,122 --> 00:20:01,882
16 months after Markus Jooste
walked out of the building.
288
00:20:01,882 --> 00:20:04,523
[reporter2] A report by auditing firm PWC
289
00:20:04,523 --> 00:20:08,283
named several executives,
including former CEO, Markus Jooste.
290
00:20:08,283 --> 00:20:10,723
No one really knows where Jooste is.
291
00:20:10,723 --> 00:20:13,362
He still hasn't come forward
or spoken to anyone.
292
00:20:13,362 --> 00:20:15,923
Mr Jooste, we understand,
is still in the country,
293
00:20:15,923 --> 00:20:19,162
either in Stellenbosch
or at his home in Hermanus.
294
00:20:19,162 --> 00:20:21,723
But having said that,
there's been no charges put to him,
295
00:20:21,723 --> 00:20:24,562
so he really is free
to come and go as he pleases.
296
00:20:31,003 --> 00:20:33,642
Just like a romantic relationship
when it ends,
297
00:20:33,642 --> 00:20:37,122
when you look back
you kind of see the warning signs.
298
00:20:37,122 --> 00:20:42,322
Having that reflection on your
professional relationship with Jooste,
299
00:20:42,322 --> 00:20:43,963
do you have those warning signs?
300
00:20:44,443 --> 00:20:48,443
No. Nothing, you know,
that would stick out,
301
00:20:48,443 --> 00:20:52,402
that would certainly make you say,
"Whoops, let's look at this again."
302
00:20:54,923 --> 00:21:00,243
In this instance,
it was literally a bolt out of the blue.
303
00:21:00,243 --> 00:21:04,243
I always found it strange that he said
it came like a bolt out of the blue.
304
00:21:04,243 --> 00:21:07,602
Could be a case of being blind to
what's actually going on, because
305
00:21:07,602 --> 00:21:10,963
if you get too close to the management
team, you sort of lose your objectivity.
306
00:21:10,963 --> 00:21:14,923
So, I wouldn't be surprised
if Christo Wiese lost his objectivity
307
00:21:14,923 --> 00:21:19,523
in terms of seeing, actually,
that he was gonna be taken for a ride.
308
00:21:20,162 --> 00:21:22,923
[Rob Rose] You know, your career
has been a series of successes.
309
00:21:22,923 --> 00:21:25,122
-You haven't had too many failures.
-Yes.
310
00:21:25,122 --> 00:21:28,043
How does the Steinhoff failure
rank in your business career?
311
00:21:28,043 --> 00:21:30,203
I mean, was it your biggest mistake?
312
00:21:30,203 --> 00:21:33,283
It is the biggest mistake
by a country mile, Rob.
313
00:21:33,283 --> 00:21:36,483
I mean, what it cost me in monetary terms.
314
00:21:40,523 --> 00:21:44,122
But what it cost also
in reputational terms,
315
00:21:44,122 --> 00:21:47,362
it's by a country mile
the biggest mistake.
316
00:21:47,362 --> 00:21:52,483
How would I explain
getting lured into that trap?
317
00:21:52,483 --> 00:21:57,882
Is I relied too much
on other people's due diligence.
318
00:21:57,882 --> 00:22:02,683
Jooste, for a period of more
than a decade, we now know,
319
00:22:02,683 --> 00:22:07,723
had managed to get through
the internal audit function in Steinhoff.
320
00:22:08,203 --> 00:22:11,243
He managed to get
through the component auditors
321
00:22:11,243 --> 00:22:13,802
in the different jurisdictions
all over the world.
322
00:22:13,802 --> 00:22:17,723
He got through the banks
that lent him billions.
323
00:22:18,402 --> 00:22:22,683
The institutional investors,
the ratings agencies.
324
00:22:22,683 --> 00:22:25,642
You know,
until a few months before the collapse,
325
00:22:25,642 --> 00:22:28,923
Steinhoff still had
an investment-grade rating.
326
00:22:30,122 --> 00:22:33,483
He got through all those gatekeepers.
327
00:22:34,683 --> 00:22:36,882
Why should I have seen it?
328
00:22:36,882 --> 00:22:42,283
When those people who were there
for years, they never saw it.
329
00:22:42,283 --> 00:22:47,963
Should I have said, "No, no, no.
I don't trust all these auditors.
330
00:22:47,963 --> 00:22:50,362
I want to do my own audit"?
331
00:22:53,723 --> 00:22:58,243
Why did it never happen
in 50 years in my other businesses?
332
00:23:03,443 --> 00:23:07,162
There was a long history
of the Steinhoff management team
333
00:23:07,162 --> 00:23:11,723
getting more and more aggressive,
whether in applying accounting policies,
334
00:23:12,283 --> 00:23:18,683
whether in doing tax structuring, whether
in doing merger and acquisition deals.
335
00:23:18,683 --> 00:23:21,842
But at some point,
it doesn't pass the smell test.
336
00:23:27,122 --> 00:23:32,283
No company wants to have liabilities
that negatively affect its bottom line,
337
00:23:32,283 --> 00:23:35,082
and so it will look for ways
of removing them.
338
00:23:35,082 --> 00:23:39,562
They're called off balance sheet
transactions, an accounting loophole
339
00:23:39,562 --> 00:23:44,362
that can be used to enhance
the company's apparent profitability.
340
00:23:44,842 --> 00:23:46,322
In the case of Steinhoff,
341
00:23:46,322 --> 00:23:50,802
it had consumer finance businesses
JD Finance and Capfin.
342
00:23:51,523 --> 00:23:55,842
These companies extended loans
to people who often couldn't afford them,
343
00:23:55,842 --> 00:23:58,562
and so, the risk of defaulting was high.
344
00:23:59,362 --> 00:24:05,082
Steinhoff decided to sell these companies
to a third party to remove this risk.
345
00:24:05,082 --> 00:24:10,683
However, it actually lent the money to
the third party to finance this purchase
346
00:24:10,683 --> 00:24:15,683
and accounted for the interest
on these loans as revenue.
347
00:24:15,683 --> 00:24:21,322
Steinhoff then reacquired
the profitable segments of the businesses.
348
00:24:21,322 --> 00:24:23,963
It was a deal
that didn't stand up to scrutiny
349
00:24:23,963 --> 00:24:27,443
as it was clearly set up
to exploit a loophole.
350
00:24:29,523 --> 00:24:33,683
At face value, it makes sense to say
no one would enter into a transaction
351
00:24:33,683 --> 00:24:36,003
that they knew, behind the scenes,
352
00:24:36,003 --> 00:24:39,283
was with a company that had no substance,
that was fraudulent.
353
00:24:39,283 --> 00:24:43,122
I do think, though, that people
sometimes enter transactions
354
00:24:43,122 --> 00:24:45,362
that they know is quite aggressive.
355
00:24:45,362 --> 00:24:48,763
It pushes the envelope
when it comes to tax rules,
356
00:24:48,763 --> 00:24:51,523
comes to foreign exchange restrictions,
357
00:24:51,523 --> 00:24:54,642
and therefore that they should know
that there's a risk,
358
00:24:54,642 --> 00:24:58,283
perhaps that some of the deals
are very close to the foul line.
359
00:25:00,723 --> 00:25:04,602
I never could believe
that these figures were coloured. Never.
360
00:25:05,082 --> 00:25:10,443
Our business style was to have top people
and to believe top people.
361
00:25:10,443 --> 00:25:16,082
I never was in these meetings because
the finance department was not my job.
362
00:25:16,082 --> 00:25:20,283
And they always said everything is okay.
I had a shock, a real shock.
363
00:25:31,723 --> 00:25:36,082
[Louis du Preez] You have to understand
why they're so upset,
364
00:25:36,082 --> 00:25:38,043
why they're so frustrated.
365
00:25:38,043 --> 00:25:40,763
And it's not just the money
that they've lost.
366
00:25:40,763 --> 00:25:45,802
There's that
personal self-belief that they've lost,
367
00:25:45,802 --> 00:25:50,562
"But how could I not have seen this?
How did I miss this?
368
00:25:50,562 --> 00:25:54,243
Is there something wrong in my judgment?"
369
00:25:54,243 --> 00:25:57,763
[Fifi Peters] In all the confusion,
one of the big questions coming out
370
00:25:57,763 --> 00:26:02,162
is how on earth the auditors
signed off on Steinhoff results
371
00:26:02,162 --> 00:26:05,043
for many years,
before everything came to light?
372
00:26:06,203 --> 00:26:11,203
Steinhoff's results were very difficult
to compare with previous years' results.
373
00:26:14,923 --> 00:26:18,562
Steinhoff changed its year end
during the preceding years,
374
00:26:18,562 --> 00:26:23,043
so what it meant was you couldn't really
compare the one year with the other one.
375
00:26:23,043 --> 00:26:27,602
And they also changed
the reporting currency from Rand to Euro.
376
00:26:27,602 --> 00:26:29,162
Which also made it very difficult
377
00:26:29,162 --> 00:26:32,602
because, you know, which exchange rate
do you use to compare?
378
00:26:32,602 --> 00:26:37,043
Because the sales were made over
a 12-month period.
379
00:26:37,683 --> 00:26:43,162
But at that stage it was definitely not
perceived as being a way to hide,
380
00:26:43,162 --> 00:26:45,642
you know, accounting irregularities.
381
00:26:46,283 --> 00:26:51,122
Steinhoff is a big company, it's a complex
company, it's got a lot of moving parts.
382
00:26:51,122 --> 00:26:53,562
Maybe it was just a way
to simplify things,
383
00:26:54,322 --> 00:26:59,003
and I think that is how it was perceived
by the media, as well as many analysts.
384
00:27:09,802 --> 00:27:13,043
Auditors perform a public service.
They operate in the public interest.
385
00:27:13,043 --> 00:27:16,763
And often auditors forget
that they are there to protect the public.
386
00:27:20,923 --> 00:27:24,483
They don't work
for the directors of the company.
387
00:27:24,483 --> 00:27:27,842
In fact,
they should report back to the investors
388
00:27:27,842 --> 00:27:32,362
that management is performing
their functions properly.
389
00:27:32,362 --> 00:27:35,523
It's still the responsibility
of the management
390
00:27:35,523 --> 00:27:37,283
to prepare the financial statements,
391
00:27:37,283 --> 00:27:40,362
and the responsibility
of those with oversight
392
00:27:40,362 --> 00:27:42,043
to exercise their oversight function
393
00:27:42,043 --> 00:27:45,842
in terms of management's preparation
of those financial statements.
394
00:27:45,842 --> 00:27:49,642
And an audit cannot take away
those responsibilities.
395
00:27:49,642 --> 00:27:54,203
Now, we do know that auditors are also
not responsible for detecting fraud,
396
00:27:54,203 --> 00:27:57,483
but the standards require
that the auditors
397
00:27:57,483 --> 00:28:01,523
do develop procedures to discover fraud
if it does exist.
398
00:28:02,082 --> 00:28:06,642
There was a lot of information in
the public domain that would've alerted me
399
00:28:06,642 --> 00:28:08,642
to ask more questions,
400
00:28:08,642 --> 00:28:14,602
to be sceptical about some of
the alleged shenanigans at Steinhoff.
401
00:28:16,802 --> 00:28:18,523
The fraud standard actually
402
00:28:18,523 --> 00:28:22,602
starts off by explaining
that there are two types of fraud.
403
00:28:22,602 --> 00:28:26,923
It's either misappropriation of assets
or fraudulent financial reporting.
404
00:28:27,562 --> 00:28:31,802
In the case of Steinhoff, it was allegedly
fraudulent financial reporting.
405
00:28:32,802 --> 00:28:36,322
If you'll indulge me,
I'll go through some of the factors
406
00:28:36,322 --> 00:28:39,923
that could have alerted the auditors to...
407
00:28:41,283 --> 00:28:42,723
potential fraud existing.
408
00:28:45,203 --> 00:28:47,362
"Rapid growth in a business.
409
00:28:47,963 --> 00:28:51,283
The need for additional debt
or additional financing.
410
00:28:52,483 --> 00:28:54,602
The inability to repay debt.
411
00:28:55,602 --> 00:28:59,203
Significant related-party transactions.
412
00:29:00,162 --> 00:29:02,723
When there's many year-end adjustments.
413
00:29:03,283 --> 00:29:07,523
Missing evidence, or altered documents.
414
00:29:07,523 --> 00:29:10,122
-Dominant management or a dominant CEO.
-[seagull calling]
415
00:29:11,723 --> 00:29:17,122
Weak governance structures.
Complex organisational structures.
416
00:29:17,723 --> 00:29:20,203
When there are schemes to reduce tax.
417
00:29:21,562 --> 00:29:24,402
Unreasonable timeframes
placed on the auditor.
418
00:29:24,402 --> 00:29:26,963
When there is a lot
of complex transactions
419
00:29:26,963 --> 00:29:29,243
when it involves international operations,
420
00:29:29,243 --> 00:29:33,523
and when there's use of intermediaries,
when doing business."
421
00:29:36,562 --> 00:29:40,683
Deloitte needs to take responsibility
for what happened.
422
00:29:40,683 --> 00:29:44,683
I think they were one of the key failures
423
00:29:44,683 --> 00:29:48,203
in the oversight function for Steinhoff.
424
00:29:48,203 --> 00:29:52,322
They screwed up, with any doubt,
425
00:29:52,322 --> 00:29:55,203
and it cost a lot of people
a lot of money.
426
00:29:57,162 --> 00:30:01,003
One of the root causes
that we also discovered was that
427
00:30:01,003 --> 00:30:07,043
the firms had started
to allow their commercial interests
428
00:30:07,043 --> 00:30:10,882
to overtake their professional
responsibilities.
429
00:30:11,723 --> 00:30:14,523
[director] In simple terms,
we're talking about greed?
430
00:30:14,523 --> 00:30:15,723
Yes.
431
00:30:19,882 --> 00:30:25,723
It's quite clear that
people can almost describe Steinhoff
432
00:30:25,723 --> 00:30:30,642
as a massive commercial,
fraudulent conspiracy.
433
00:30:31,162 --> 00:30:37,003
Because the figures would indicate
that, you know, there was very little
434
00:30:37,642 --> 00:30:42,402
in the Steinhoff
that I sold my companies into...
435
00:30:43,362 --> 00:30:48,043
in contradiction
of the published audited accounts.
436
00:30:52,562 --> 00:30:56,562
If someone is meticulous and devious
in the way that they actually hide it,
437
00:30:56,562 --> 00:30:59,602
the one thing that's gonna be very
difficult to protect yourself against
438
00:30:59,602 --> 00:31:02,322
is a deliberate fraudster and thief.
439
00:31:06,443 --> 00:31:09,882
I think that there's the old saying,
"If good men stay quiet,
440
00:31:09,882 --> 00:31:11,723
that's when evil things happen."
441
00:31:11,723 --> 00:31:15,683
And I think that lots of
the board members, the investors...
442
00:31:15,683 --> 00:31:18,043
In Afrikaans we call it,
they are "skaamkwaad"
443
00:31:18,043 --> 00:31:22,043
they're cross with themselves,
but they also don't want to admit it.
444
00:31:22,043 --> 00:31:26,443
I think it's important that we all put the
facts on the table as we believe they are.
445
00:31:27,483 --> 00:31:32,322
I think one of the first building blocks
of any good scam
446
00:31:32,322 --> 00:31:36,402
is to ensure that you surround yourself
with a core of people
447
00:31:36,402 --> 00:31:40,802
who are going to be your lieutenants,
and Markus did that very well.
448
00:31:45,162 --> 00:31:48,043
It's true, also, that in any business
you must surround yourself
449
00:31:48,043 --> 00:31:52,963
with a core of lieutenants, and there's
nothing wrong with that in principle.
450
00:31:52,963 --> 00:31:56,882
But I think as this thing grew...
Because if you can get away with it once,
451
00:31:56,882 --> 00:32:00,963
you'll get away with it twice, and you
continue to do it as long as you can.
452
00:32:00,963 --> 00:32:04,043
And so this thing snowballed.
And as it snowballed,
453
00:32:04,043 --> 00:32:09,562
the strategy of Markus surrounding himself
with a board and leaders
454
00:32:09,562 --> 00:32:15,842
who were going to accept that we needed
to, almost, commit small crimes
455
00:32:15,842 --> 00:32:17,802
for the greater good, so to speak.
456
00:32:18,283 --> 00:32:20,642
I'm sure that's
how they explained it to themselves.
457
00:32:20,642 --> 00:32:24,923
All of that points to an infrastructure
458
00:32:24,923 --> 00:32:28,122
of deceit and fraud, almost, if you will,
459
00:32:28,122 --> 00:32:33,082
because if that's what comes out,
that it was fraud, then one can now say
460
00:32:33,082 --> 00:32:37,283
that that was how you built up
this infrastructure to realize that.
461
00:32:37,283 --> 00:32:38,763
And the key to that
462
00:32:38,763 --> 00:32:43,162
was keeping those individuals who know how
the system works, close.
463
00:32:46,243 --> 00:32:49,003
There was this cabal, in a sense.
464
00:32:49,003 --> 00:32:53,923
This closed, Mafia-style,
Stellenbosch-type of grouping,
465
00:32:53,923 --> 00:32:56,043
all connected to each other,
all studied together.
466
00:32:56,043 --> 00:32:59,963
It was in many ways not different
to what apartheid was
467
00:32:59,963 --> 00:33:04,203
in the sense in that it's authoritarian.
You know, you're either in or you're out.
468
00:33:07,483 --> 00:33:09,003
The fact that Steinhoff
469
00:33:09,003 --> 00:33:12,003
became one of the biggest supporters
of rugby in the country.
470
00:33:12,003 --> 00:33:18,043
Another key thing, I mean, he would take
rugby players from the Lions, or wherever,
471
00:33:18,043 --> 00:33:20,483
and he would bring them
straight into the organization.
472
00:33:20,483 --> 00:33:24,243
You know, they would basically
have a straight entry
473
00:33:24,243 --> 00:33:26,923
into an executive position,
and I experienced that.
474
00:33:26,923 --> 00:33:29,923
After years of working,
doing the hard graft,
475
00:33:29,923 --> 00:33:32,642
I suddenly had to report
to some rugby player who came in
476
00:33:32,642 --> 00:33:34,483
and has no business experience.
477
00:33:36,162 --> 00:33:39,842
I realized that my time at Steinhoff
had come to an end
478
00:33:39,842 --> 00:33:44,162
when Markus appointed
one of his Stellenbosch buddies
479
00:33:44,162 --> 00:33:47,243
to head up the unit that I was working in.
480
00:33:47,642 --> 00:33:51,283
And, you know,
we were supposed to be colleagues
481
00:33:51,283 --> 00:33:56,602
and it was clear that there was just
no respect for me as a person.
482
00:33:56,602 --> 00:33:59,283
I addressed this issue
with Markus in the room.
483
00:33:59,283 --> 00:34:03,483
And it wasn't well received.
And after that, you can imagine
484
00:34:03,483 --> 00:34:07,122
doors started closing and things
just looked completely different.
485
00:34:07,122 --> 00:34:10,003
I had a bit of a...
486
00:34:10,722 --> 00:34:14,803
What shall one call it?
A Damascus moment, in a sense.
487
00:34:14,803 --> 00:34:18,363
Where I broke my ties with Steinhoff,
sold my shares, and I moved on.
488
00:34:33,602 --> 00:34:36,483
When the initial fallout happened
489
00:34:36,483 --> 00:34:38,282
it was a little bit awkward
490
00:34:38,282 --> 00:34:40,843
for everyone to know, really,
how to deal with it.
491
00:34:44,722 --> 00:34:47,722
In terms of the racing side of things,
492
00:34:47,722 --> 00:34:51,602
it seemed as though Mr Jooste
was reluctant to withdraw,
493
00:34:51,602 --> 00:34:53,483
but to his credit, he did.
494
00:34:54,122 --> 00:34:58,122
So there was a bit, in my opinion,
of an unseemly scramble
495
00:34:58,122 --> 00:35:00,883
for these horses to be reallocated.
496
00:35:00,883 --> 00:35:05,722
So they were sold or, you know,
changed ownership sort of overnight
497
00:35:05,722 --> 00:35:09,082
so that they could still run, but it would
be under somebody else's name.
498
00:35:10,003 --> 00:35:12,562
[director] Somebody who obviously
has such a passion for this,
499
00:35:12,562 --> 00:35:15,762
-this must...
-Hurt.
500
00:35:15,762 --> 00:35:18,923
I would imagine it's difficult because
it's you know, it's not just your hobby.
501
00:35:18,923 --> 00:35:22,682
It becomes your social life.
It becomes your business life.
502
00:35:22,682 --> 00:35:27,122
And so, to lose all of that,
sort of overnight, must be pretty tough.
503
00:35:27,122 --> 00:35:30,323
So yeah, I imagine it would've been
a pretty hard blow.
504
00:35:31,403 --> 00:35:35,363
[Alec Hogg] The industry did, certainly in
the initial stages, take a terrible hit.
505
00:35:35,363 --> 00:35:39,242
A lot of that is that the firepower
that Jooste brought to sales
506
00:35:39,242 --> 00:35:43,762
and the way that the money he invested
in the industry lifted all ships.
507
00:35:43,762 --> 00:35:45,803
That firepower has now gone.
508
00:35:45,803 --> 00:35:48,523
And the money that was there
509
00:35:48,523 --> 00:35:53,963
for distribution across many mouths
that were fed, is no longer there.
510
00:36:00,202 --> 00:36:02,282
There is a small chance that the public
511
00:36:02,282 --> 00:36:06,003
might be able to actually see
what Markus Jooste really looks like.
512
00:36:06,003 --> 00:36:08,923
The Standing Committee on Finance
has taken a draft resolution
513
00:36:08,923 --> 00:36:12,523
today to issue a summons for Mr Jooste.
514
00:36:19,043 --> 00:36:21,523
Do you swear that
the evidence you are about to give
515
00:36:21,523 --> 00:36:24,843
is the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth?
516
00:36:34,843 --> 00:36:39,682
I thought it important to share with
the honourable committees here today
517
00:36:39,682 --> 00:36:42,923
the events, and the sequence of events,
518
00:36:42,923 --> 00:36:47,562
that led to the incidents
of December 2017.
519
00:36:47,562 --> 00:36:50,523
I was only about two meters from him,
and I had an opportunity
520
00:36:50,523 --> 00:36:54,523
to sort of observe him
very carefully during those hearings.
521
00:36:55,242 --> 00:36:56,642
He was quite formidable.
522
00:36:56,642 --> 00:37:00,483
This was not the first time
that he'd had to take tough questions.
523
00:37:00,483 --> 00:37:05,642
And of course, because of his position,
he had superior technical knowledge.
524
00:37:05,642 --> 00:37:09,923
And I got the impression
that he was utterly ruthless.
525
00:37:09,923 --> 00:37:12,162
And I remember thinking, you know,
this man would,
526
00:37:12,162 --> 00:37:14,963
you know, happily drown a bag of cats.
527
00:37:14,963 --> 00:37:18,883
I would like to take
the honourable committees slightly back.
528
00:37:18,883 --> 00:37:23,722
2007, Steinhoff formed
529
00:37:23,722 --> 00:37:26,923
a joint venture strategic partnership
530
00:37:27,803 --> 00:37:30,883
with Dr Andreas Seifert of Austria.
531
00:37:31,682 --> 00:37:34,242
The vision between Steinhoff and Seifert
532
00:37:34,242 --> 00:37:38,602
was to form a large
European household discount chain
533
00:37:38,602 --> 00:37:40,562
that could compete with IKEA.
534
00:37:41,043 --> 00:37:45,682
Unfortunately it turned out that
Dr Seifert was the wrong person
535
00:37:45,682 --> 00:37:47,323
to go into business with,
536
00:37:47,323 --> 00:37:53,043
and Steinhoff's association with Seifert
was terminated in March 2015.
537
00:37:54,043 --> 00:37:57,403
During 2015, Steinhoff learned
538
00:37:58,043 --> 00:38:02,323
that our ex-strategic partner, Dr Seifert,
539
00:38:02,323 --> 00:38:05,483
made various statements
to the German tax authorities.
540
00:38:06,122 --> 00:38:08,363
It was Steinhoff's and my view
541
00:38:08,363 --> 00:38:12,762
that Seifert was attempting
to use public prosecutors,
542
00:38:12,762 --> 00:38:16,162
capital market regulators and the press
543
00:38:16,162 --> 00:38:20,562
to assist him in his unfounded attempts
to obtain information
544
00:38:20,562 --> 00:38:26,202
and to influence the outcome of the courts
in the ongoing civil litigations.
545
00:38:26,202 --> 00:38:29,282
Seifert is the one who is the arch villain
in this particular picture
546
00:38:29,282 --> 00:38:32,803
painted by Markus, and has created
this false picture of a company
547
00:38:32,803 --> 00:38:36,122
that is actually fine,
but which has been unfairly targeted
548
00:38:36,122 --> 00:38:40,202
and smeared, and Markus, as a result,
has been unfairly targeted and smeared.
549
00:38:40,202 --> 00:38:46,082
And my discussion with Dr Wiese
and the legal advisers
550
00:38:46,082 --> 00:38:52,483
was that the supervisory board
should replace Deloitte, at that stage,
551
00:38:52,483 --> 00:38:55,803
with a firm that was prepared to sign off
by the end of January
552
00:38:55,803 --> 00:38:57,642
to meet the deadline.
553
00:38:57,642 --> 00:39:03,883
And I made it very clear that if that is
not the way the board would want to go,
554
00:39:03,883 --> 00:39:05,883
I don't see my way forward.
555
00:39:05,883 --> 00:39:09,843
We know the numbers
which Christo reportedly lost
556
00:39:09,843 --> 00:39:11,923
when the whole group collapsed.
557
00:39:11,923 --> 00:39:15,323
What about you
and your family trust and everything else?
558
00:39:15,323 --> 00:39:19,562
On what day do you want to take the
share price? The day before the collapse?
559
00:39:19,562 --> 00:39:23,923
Don't get now disingenuous.
On the day of the collapse.
560
00:39:23,923 --> 00:39:27,043
Then it is roughly about R3 billion.
561
00:39:28,003 --> 00:39:32,762
I would imagine that if I was going
to be losing R3 billion,
562
00:39:33,523 --> 00:39:38,883
I would not just up and leave
after 29 years of service,
563
00:39:39,682 --> 00:39:42,162
just on the basis of one decision.
564
00:39:42,162 --> 00:39:46,043
You literally, with all due respect, sir,
threw your toys out the cot.
565
00:39:46,682 --> 00:39:48,562
I'm not convinced by that at all.
566
00:39:48,562 --> 00:39:53,403
I went through
a two-and-a-half-year period,
567
00:39:54,323 --> 00:40:00,562
dealing with the issues from when
the German tax investigation started,
568
00:40:00,562 --> 00:40:03,963
the legal fights with Seifert.
569
00:40:03,963 --> 00:40:06,403
And my personal view was
570
00:40:06,403 --> 00:40:12,883
that the start of a new, brand new,
investigation on the 5th of December
571
00:40:12,883 --> 00:40:15,202
will not be completed.
572
00:40:15,883 --> 00:40:18,323
Why will it be completed
quicker than two years
573
00:40:18,323 --> 00:40:20,602
if all the other people
have taken two years?
574
00:40:21,242 --> 00:40:24,682
And therefore,
I knew that the company will be left
575
00:40:24,682 --> 00:40:30,682
in absolute limbo and obviously
pointing fingers at me as the CEO.
576
00:40:31,162 --> 00:40:35,082
And at that stage, that was my decision,
that I had enough.
577
00:40:35,082 --> 00:40:39,523
It was not about losing money
or what was at stake.
578
00:40:44,682 --> 00:40:49,242
[Dr Giada Del Fabbro]
What stands out is he's deflecting blame
579
00:40:49,242 --> 00:40:52,202
and responsibility
to others or other situations.
580
00:40:54,722 --> 00:40:57,003
These are traits
we find quite consistently
581
00:40:57,003 --> 00:40:58,682
in antisocial personality disorder.
582
00:40:58,682 --> 00:41:02,682
So these individuals also don't appreciate
the consequences of their actions
583
00:41:02,682 --> 00:41:04,523
in a way
that would inhibit their behaviour.
584
00:41:04,523 --> 00:41:08,202
And if you feel confident in your ability
to deflect blame,
585
00:41:08,202 --> 00:41:10,803
then you do feel like you are untouchable.
586
00:41:13,242 --> 00:41:17,803
That inability
to conceptualise or entertain the idea
587
00:41:17,803 --> 00:41:20,282
that he could be found guilty.
588
00:41:20,282 --> 00:41:23,923
He quite effectively
almost cast himself as a victim.
589
00:41:23,923 --> 00:41:25,202
I didn't buy it.
590
00:41:25,202 --> 00:41:28,722
And I don't think that many members
of the committee bought it.
591
00:41:29,562 --> 00:41:32,162
What Mr Jooste is doing
592
00:41:32,523 --> 00:41:37,523
is to now shift the blame
to the strategic partner.
593
00:41:37,523 --> 00:41:42,242
I'm not sure if Markus
believes what he said entirely
594
00:41:42,242 --> 00:41:45,122
or if it's a narrative he constructed
and is sticking to.
595
00:41:46,282 --> 00:41:50,722
"This is just a grudge by my former
colleague and my peer, Andreas Seifert,
596
00:41:50,722 --> 00:41:52,282
to make me look bad."
597
00:41:52,843 --> 00:41:56,642
Now, that is a story that doesn't
appear to hold water.
598
00:42:06,043 --> 00:42:11,602
The fact is, a forensic audit of Steinhoff
by PWC found 6.5 billion,
599
00:42:11,602 --> 00:42:16,403
R106 billion, of fictitious transactions
over more than a decade.
600
00:42:16,403 --> 00:42:20,883
It's unlikely that a R106 billion
in fictitious deals over ten years
601
00:42:20,883 --> 00:42:24,483
is created by Andreas Seifert
as part of a grudge.
602
00:42:25,483 --> 00:42:29,883
I worked 29 years for this company
every day of my life to build it,
603
00:42:29,883 --> 00:42:34,363
and to travel all over the world,
traveling 200 days a year
604
00:42:34,363 --> 00:42:36,242
into the different countries of the world.
605
00:42:36,242 --> 00:42:40,162
And therefore it saddened me
what has happened to Steinhoff.
606
00:42:40,162 --> 00:42:44,003
It was a business creating
more than a hundred thousand jobs.
607
00:42:44,682 --> 00:42:47,202
You know, you're coming across
608
00:42:47,202 --> 00:42:50,562
almost like you're
a Mother Teresa of Steinhoff, right?
609
00:42:50,562 --> 00:42:55,282
I can only say that I'm trying my best
this morning to answer the questions
610
00:42:55,282 --> 00:42:58,282
to the best of my ability,
and to the knowledge that I have.
611
00:42:58,963 --> 00:43:04,803
The word scandal is now
the writers of sensation.
612
00:43:06,722 --> 00:43:11,722
Jooste is a very clever,
very slick and a very slippery operator.
613
00:43:12,443 --> 00:43:16,202
You know, he knows where all the bodies
are buried because he buried them.
614
00:43:16,803 --> 00:43:22,162
In fact, he was the undertaker
and he owns the cemetery as well.
615
00:43:22,162 --> 00:43:25,363
So there's no way
that you're gonna catch him out
616
00:43:26,202 --> 00:43:32,843
in divulging the most inner secrets of his
most inner balance sheet, as it were.
617
00:43:36,963 --> 00:43:41,202
He presented a sort of almost
a veneer of respect for the committee.
618
00:43:41,202 --> 00:43:42,883
But I could almost feel
619
00:43:42,883 --> 00:43:46,242
that sort of as he became
more comfortable in the environment,
620
00:43:46,242 --> 00:43:48,722
as he became more confident
in the environment,
621
00:43:48,722 --> 00:43:52,122
that arrogance started to show.
622
00:43:52,122 --> 00:43:56,843
And so I thought that I would put
a question to him that would rattle him.
623
00:43:57,282 --> 00:44:01,483
The bolt from the blue finally struck
on or about
624
00:44:01,483 --> 00:44:05,202
Monday, the 5th of December 2017.
625
00:44:05,762 --> 00:44:12,443
One of the people
who you once regarded as a friend
626
00:44:12,443 --> 00:44:18,682
apparently referred to you as,
and I quote, "a fucking psychopath,"
627
00:44:19,642 --> 00:44:24,843
presumably because you had lied to him
convincingly for years.
628
00:44:25,682 --> 00:44:29,682
Is it an
accurate description of your personality?
629
00:44:29,682 --> 00:44:32,403
I would like to say that I never lied
630
00:44:32,403 --> 00:44:36,202
about the activities of the company
as the allegation was made.
631
00:44:36,202 --> 00:44:39,403
Mr Jooste, what surprises me
most about your evidence
632
00:44:39,403 --> 00:44:42,803
is there is no contrition, no apology...
633
00:44:45,242 --> 00:44:48,242
to the thousands of people,
634
00:44:48,722 --> 00:44:53,963
who you yourself concede
suffered major financial loss.
635
00:44:53,963 --> 00:44:57,642
I think in distancing himself
when working with other people's money,
636
00:44:57,642 --> 00:44:59,843
there was this illusion
that his hands were clean.
637
00:44:59,843 --> 00:45:03,282
For that reason, it might be hard for him
to conceptualize
638
00:45:03,282 --> 00:45:05,963
that he would hold
the ultimate responsibility for that.
639
00:45:11,363 --> 00:45:14,242
[Alec Hogg] You know, psychologists
talk about sociopaths
640
00:45:14,242 --> 00:45:18,923
and sociopaths are predators
641
00:45:18,923 --> 00:45:22,602
and they can see
where your weak spots are.
642
00:45:23,722 --> 00:45:30,443
And they know how to manipulate others
who are close to them and around them
643
00:45:30,443 --> 00:45:33,043
in such a way as they can gain advantage.
644
00:45:35,523 --> 00:45:38,003
I don't feel
sympathetic towards him at all.
645
00:45:38,483 --> 00:45:40,803
I think Markus knew
exactly what he was doing.
646
00:45:40,803 --> 00:45:46,043
He knew exactly who he was using
and manipulating,
647
00:45:47,082 --> 00:45:51,202
and he hasn't even tried to say sorry.
648
00:45:51,803 --> 00:45:57,202
One mistake we must not make
is to call these accounting irregularities
649
00:45:57,202 --> 00:45:59,883
or all these other fancy terms
650
00:45:59,883 --> 00:46:04,323
which sanitizes the tragedy and crisis
before us. This is pure corruption.
651
00:46:05,202 --> 00:46:08,762
Because we treat the public sector
with that kind of outlook.
652
00:46:08,762 --> 00:46:13,242
So I'm just saying, it can't be
different strokes for different folks.
653
00:46:13,242 --> 00:46:17,242
That was the bracing reality, I think,
for the country to realize after Steinhoff
654
00:46:17,242 --> 00:46:20,282
that what was happening in
the wider society had infiltrated
655
00:46:20,282 --> 00:46:24,202
other parts of society that people thought
were somehow immune from it.
656
00:46:24,562 --> 00:46:25,722
Fraud and corruption.
657
00:46:25,722 --> 00:46:27,082
No accountability.
658
00:46:27,082 --> 00:46:28,403
Serious allegations.
659
00:46:28,403 --> 00:46:30,523
-State Capture.
-The State Capture Inquiry.
660
00:46:30,523 --> 00:46:31,642
The State Capture Commission.
661
00:46:31,642 --> 00:46:33,963
It cost the economy billions.
662
00:46:33,963 --> 00:46:36,642
The Guptas were benefiting
from government work,
663
00:46:36,642 --> 00:46:40,323
helped by the executive powers
of former president Jacob Zuma.
664
00:46:40,323 --> 00:46:42,602
He's never taken responsibility
for anything.
665
00:46:43,122 --> 00:46:46,483
[Rob Rose] During the Zuma years
sort of after 2011, what we found out,
666
00:46:46,483 --> 00:46:49,003
essentially the country was being run
by a shadow government.
667
00:46:49,003 --> 00:46:53,403
That we had people pulling the strings
from behind the president, Jacob Zuma.
668
00:46:53,403 --> 00:46:56,242
And all of this was essentially
the state capture years.
669
00:46:56,242 --> 00:46:59,762
Until people are caught they will
continue doing it.
670
00:46:59,762 --> 00:47:02,602
For a long time our corporate sector
was lauded internationally.
671
00:47:02,602 --> 00:47:05,122
We had the strongest
auditing standards in the world.
672
00:47:05,122 --> 00:47:07,803
We had the strongest corporate
governance systems.
673
00:47:07,803 --> 00:47:11,323
And then corporate ethics
began to fray too, to some extent.
674
00:47:11,323 --> 00:47:15,323
There are a number of public institutions
and public sector institutions
675
00:47:15,323 --> 00:47:17,843
that were simply hollowed out.
676
00:47:17,843 --> 00:47:22,762
The National Prosecuting Authority
was one of the main sites of capture
677
00:47:22,762 --> 00:47:27,363
during the Jacob Zuma era,
which allowed Markus Jooste to get away
678
00:47:27,363 --> 00:47:32,562
with much more than, you would argue,
he would have gotten away with
679
00:47:32,562 --> 00:47:34,122
had these institutions functioned.
680
00:47:34,602 --> 00:47:37,242
And afterwards,
we've seen a rash of corporate scandals.
681
00:47:37,242 --> 00:47:40,963
We've seen Tongaat Hulett, we've seen VBS
Mutual Bank and a number of other ones
682
00:47:40,963 --> 00:47:44,282
which indicate that certainly things
were happening in the margin.
683
00:47:44,282 --> 00:47:47,202
And I think that Steinhoff
was the big symbol of that, of how
684
00:47:47,202 --> 00:47:49,242
we lost our way in the corporate sector.
685
00:47:50,043 --> 00:47:54,562
Because many of these accounting firms
not only aided and abetted state capture,
686
00:47:54,562 --> 00:47:57,082
but aided and abetted Markus Jooste
687
00:47:57,082 --> 00:47:59,923
to create this fiction
of a multibillion dollar company
688
00:47:59,923 --> 00:48:03,043
which clearly was found on sand.
689
00:48:03,923 --> 00:48:06,363
[Graham Theobald]
You can't get a one-sided corruption.
690
00:48:06,363 --> 00:48:08,803
There's got to be two sides.
691
00:48:08,803 --> 00:48:10,762
The money's got to flow
692
00:48:10,762 --> 00:48:13,843
and it's got to come from somewhere
and it's got to go somewhere.
693
00:48:14,443 --> 00:48:17,642
So trust in our institutions
starts eroding.
694
00:48:18,562 --> 00:48:21,602
And, you know, and when that happens,
695
00:48:21,602 --> 00:48:25,682
then personal value systems
get compromised.
696
00:48:25,682 --> 00:48:28,722
If Bain & Company can do it, why can't I?
697
00:48:28,722 --> 00:48:30,803
And how do you correct that?
698
00:48:33,242 --> 00:48:35,483
[Pieter du Toit]
It was multiple systems failure.
699
00:48:35,483 --> 00:48:40,803
You can't pin it on one system that did
not do what it was supposed to do.
700
00:48:40,803 --> 00:48:44,242
It was systems in the private sector,
systems in the public sector,
701
00:48:44,242 --> 00:48:46,923
and in this void stepped Markus Jooste.
702
00:48:51,562 --> 00:48:54,242
You come in here
and you act like nothing is wrong!
703
00:48:55,202 --> 00:48:57,043
You must be ashamed of yourself!
704
00:48:58,162 --> 00:49:02,282
[Thys du Toit] South Africa
needs resources. It needs savings.
705
00:49:02,282 --> 00:49:04,883
And if South Africa is defrauded,
706
00:49:04,883 --> 00:49:09,803
be it by the Guptas, be it by Jooste,
you're depleting that savings base,
707
00:49:09,803 --> 00:49:12,003
that very necessary capital.
708
00:49:13,642 --> 00:49:17,602
Employment is not created by the State.
Employment is created
709
00:49:17,602 --> 00:49:21,242
by creating an environment
for entrepreneurs to flourish in.
710
00:49:21,242 --> 00:49:24,722
And if the savings base
of South Africa is depleted
711
00:49:24,722 --> 00:49:29,122
then the capital available
to people that create jobs disappear.
712
00:49:29,122 --> 00:49:34,162
And that's basically what the Guptas did
in a big, big way with state capture.
713
00:49:34,162 --> 00:49:37,483
And that is what Jooste did
with Steinhoff.
714
00:49:37,483 --> 00:49:40,923
And as a result,
the entire population suffers.
715
00:49:42,562 --> 00:49:45,602
One typically points
the finger at the politicians.
716
00:49:45,602 --> 00:49:50,483
But here is a clear case of where
the private sector is also at blame.
717
00:49:51,682 --> 00:49:54,483
You know,
people will learn a lesson from this.
718
00:49:55,403 --> 00:49:57,642
And a few years from now,
719
00:49:57,642 --> 00:50:00,923
bet your bottom dollar
you run the risk again.
720
00:50:00,923 --> 00:50:05,642
I mean, Steinhoff was scarcely cold
when Tongaat happened.
721
00:50:06,803 --> 00:50:10,122
And the rest! It will happen again.
722
00:50:10,122 --> 00:50:14,122
It's amazing that you say that, because
people talk about how we must stop this
723
00:50:14,122 --> 00:50:16,923
and bulletproof it from happening again.
But you don't think it's possible?
724
00:50:16,923 --> 00:50:19,883
Well, why didn't they stop it after Enron
and Madoff?
725
00:50:27,963 --> 00:50:30,722
[Bernard Agulhas] We have fragmented
regulation in South Africa at the moment.
726
00:50:30,722 --> 00:50:33,722
That means that only auditors
are regulated.
727
00:50:33,722 --> 00:50:37,682
Only auditors are held to account
for an audit failure.
728
00:50:38,282 --> 00:50:41,923
Audit committee members, board members...
You can take away their designations,
729
00:50:41,923 --> 00:50:44,843
but you can't stop them from carrying on
and doing the same work,
730
00:50:44,843 --> 00:50:47,923
whereas an auditor's license
can be withdrawn.
731
00:50:47,923 --> 00:50:51,323
That is because there's an act
that regulates auditors.
732
00:50:51,323 --> 00:50:55,323
The other portions of the financial
reporting chain, or the ecosystem,
733
00:50:55,323 --> 00:50:56,483
is not regulated.
734
00:50:56,483 --> 00:50:59,202
What applies to the auditors
should also apply to them.
735
00:50:59,883 --> 00:51:02,642
All those role players
should be subject to regulation.
736
00:51:03,122 --> 00:51:04,722
They should also be held to account
737
00:51:04,722 --> 00:51:08,082
in the same way that an auditor's license
can be taken away from them.
738
00:51:08,082 --> 00:51:10,403
And we don't have that at the moment.
739
00:51:25,682 --> 00:51:31,963
I think everyone in the end
ended up in a good position, not ideal.
740
00:51:32,443 --> 00:51:37,003
And that's probably the hallmarks
of any settlement, ultimately.
741
00:51:37,003 --> 00:51:40,202
Everyone is a little bit frustrated,
742
00:51:40,202 --> 00:51:42,602
which means
it's probably a good settlement.
743
00:51:51,803 --> 00:51:57,242
The settlement was... [chuckles]
Relative to the damage that was done,
744
00:51:57,242 --> 00:51:59,443
I think they got off lightly.
745
00:52:00,282 --> 00:52:04,602
But it was in the shareholders' interest
to some extent that...
746
00:52:04,602 --> 00:52:05,923
they salvage the company.
747
00:52:05,923 --> 00:52:11,282
Because if the settlement
were significantly bigger,
748
00:52:11,282 --> 00:52:16,923
they would've had to close Steinhoff,
and that would've been a bigger problem.
749
00:52:16,923 --> 00:52:18,642
Maybe there would've been job losses.
750
00:52:21,843 --> 00:52:25,003
[Jean Pierre Verster] Yes, I do think
Steinhoff is on a path to recovery.
751
00:52:25,003 --> 00:52:26,443
It's gonna be a bumpy path.
752
00:52:26,443 --> 00:52:29,642
There was definitely a probability
that Steinhoff would be liquidated.
753
00:52:29,642 --> 00:52:31,523
It would cease to exist,
754
00:52:31,523 --> 00:52:35,403
and equity holders would lose all their
investments if that had happened.
755
00:52:35,403 --> 00:52:39,363
Debt holders would lose a large
chunk of their investment.
756
00:52:39,363 --> 00:52:42,843
So the new management team
that was brought in
757
00:52:42,843 --> 00:52:47,363
to sort of mop up the problems
has done a great job to do that.
758
00:52:47,923 --> 00:52:51,122
[Louis du Preez] We've changed
the business model significantly.
759
00:52:51,122 --> 00:52:56,363
In some instances by necessity,
in others by design.
760
00:52:56,363 --> 00:52:58,403
Look, we're not out of the woods yet.
761
00:52:58,403 --> 00:53:03,523
We believe everyone and anyone
who has a share in this company today
762
00:53:03,523 --> 00:53:06,722
will have all the information
at their disposal
763
00:53:06,722 --> 00:53:11,762
to make an informed decision if they want
to hold or sell or buy into the company.
764
00:53:11,762 --> 00:53:16,562
And I think the share price
is definitely recovered somewhat.
765
00:53:16,562 --> 00:53:21,642
It's definitely not at the levels
that it was in December 2017.
766
00:53:21,642 --> 00:53:23,762
But that's now behind us.
767
00:53:26,323 --> 00:53:28,363
[Thys du Toit]
It is essential that Steinhoff survives
768
00:53:28,363 --> 00:53:31,762
because obviously they are
one of the main claimants against Jooste
769
00:53:31,762 --> 00:53:36,202
and so it's essential that they survive
for that court case to go ahead.
770
00:53:36,202 --> 00:53:39,562
What makes me more despondent is the fact
that there's so little progress
771
00:53:39,562 --> 00:53:41,403
from the National
Prosecuting Authority's side.
772
00:53:41,403 --> 00:53:42,722
[sirens wailing]
773
00:53:44,803 --> 00:53:48,003
I don't believe the Hawks
have started their investigation yet.
774
00:53:48,003 --> 00:53:53,043
Does the NPA have the capacity
to successfully prosecute billionaires
775
00:53:53,043 --> 00:53:56,403
who are going to be going to court,
if they do end up in court,
776
00:53:56,403 --> 00:54:00,003
backed up by teams of legal experts?
I don't know!
777
00:54:00,003 --> 00:54:03,122
If you steal R100 000, you go to jail.
778
00:54:03,122 --> 00:54:07,202
If you basically defraud a company
of R100 billion, you don't go to jail.
779
00:54:07,202 --> 00:54:12,242
If Markus Jooste and his accomplices
were in fact prosecuted and convicted,
780
00:54:12,242 --> 00:54:16,443
that would be a significant deterrence
to commercial crime in South Africa.
781
00:54:16,443 --> 00:54:21,803
He's no closer to the inside of a jail
cell today as he was in December 2017.
782
00:54:21,803 --> 00:54:24,403
This thing about white collar crime
783
00:54:24,403 --> 00:54:30,843
of being treated differently
from other kinds of crime is unacceptable.
784
00:54:30,843 --> 00:54:32,122
[Twitter whistle]
785
00:54:35,843 --> 00:54:37,202
[Twitter whistle]
786
00:54:41,202 --> 00:54:42,483
[Twitter whistle]
787
00:54:46,803 --> 00:54:48,682
You see, the evidence is there.
788
00:54:48,682 --> 00:54:54,443
FEDUSA and our biggest union,
the Public Servants Association, the PSA.
789
00:54:54,443 --> 00:54:58,162
We went to their offices in Stellenbosch.
790
00:54:58,162 --> 00:55:00,443
We collected all the minutes.
791
00:55:00,443 --> 00:55:04,043
We want to give those documents
over to the Hawks and say,
792
00:55:04,043 --> 00:55:09,602
"Guys, you've got the responsibility in
terms of the constitution to prosecute.
793
00:55:09,602 --> 00:55:12,363
Prosecute these people!"
What is the problem?
794
00:55:17,843 --> 00:55:21,043
[reporter3] Is the net closing in
on former Steinhoff CEO?
795
00:55:21,562 --> 00:55:24,923
The regulator found Jooste complicit
in insider trading.
796
00:55:24,923 --> 00:55:26,602
[reporter4] Jooste warned his driver,
797
00:55:26,602 --> 00:55:30,883
a friend, and a business partner
to dispose of their Steinhoff shares.
798
00:55:30,883 --> 00:55:32,562
[message alert]
799
00:55:32,562 --> 00:55:35,523
[Rob Rose] It took the regulator
a year or two to investigate this.
800
00:55:35,523 --> 00:55:38,602
The regulator,
the Financial Sector Conduct Authority,
801
00:55:38,602 --> 00:55:41,923
slapped the largest fine on anyone
in its history for insider trading.
802
00:55:41,923 --> 00:55:44,483
It was a landmark fine in their case.
803
00:56:00,122 --> 00:56:04,523
[Fifi Peters] Insider trading can be
explained through a game of blackjack.
804
00:56:04,523 --> 00:56:08,082
If the dealer gives me
a peek of the next card
805
00:56:08,082 --> 00:56:11,562
and only me, not the other players,
806
00:56:11,562 --> 00:56:15,762
then I have some inside knowledge
that can ensure that I win.
807
00:56:16,963 --> 00:56:20,202
Let's imagine the dealer was the CEO
of a company
808
00:56:20,202 --> 00:56:22,963
with knowledge of what's about to unfold.
809
00:56:23,483 --> 00:56:26,202
Maybe evidence of fraud
is going to be uncovered,
810
00:56:26,202 --> 00:56:28,762
which will make the share price plunge.
811
00:56:29,363 --> 00:56:33,443
If the CEO discloses that information
to a third party
812
00:56:33,443 --> 00:56:36,082
before it becomes public knowledge
813
00:56:36,082 --> 00:56:39,363
and they sell their shares
to avoid losses...
814
00:56:39,363 --> 00:56:41,762
That's insider trading.
815
00:56:42,363 --> 00:56:45,803
It's illegal,
and it's exactly what Markus Jooste did
816
00:56:45,803 --> 00:56:47,843
in November 2017.
817
00:56:49,722 --> 00:56:53,403
The legal system, in being fair,
818
00:56:54,242 --> 00:57:00,003
also allows those who have money
and the resources
819
00:57:00,923 --> 00:57:03,883
to take advantage of it.
820
00:57:04,642 --> 00:57:09,483
To continue over decades
821
00:57:09,483 --> 00:57:13,122
in defending their case,
often on technicalities.
822
00:57:13,122 --> 00:57:16,003
We see many examples of that
here in South Africa.
823
00:57:23,483 --> 00:57:26,963
He was fined more then R160 million,
824
00:57:26,963 --> 00:57:30,483
and the driver was fined R18 000.
825
00:57:30,483 --> 00:57:33,443
The driver already paid his R18 000,
826
00:57:33,443 --> 00:57:37,403
Markus has not paid
his R160-something million,
827
00:57:37,403 --> 00:57:41,803
but he's free, living his life.
Where's justice there?
828
00:57:47,403 --> 00:57:50,363
That is unfair.
That's what we need to end as a country.
829
00:57:50,883 --> 00:57:56,043
It doesn't matter who you are, whether
you're poor or rich, or black and white,
830
00:57:56,043 --> 00:58:00,562
male or female, you should be able
to be treated the same.
831
00:58:01,082 --> 00:58:05,403
It's not helping the country to heal
from a reconciliation point of view.
832
00:58:05,403 --> 00:58:07,963
Because it creates this tension
that we always have.
833
00:58:07,963 --> 00:58:12,843
If we want to create an equal,
or equitable society,
834
00:58:12,843 --> 00:58:16,403
we need to make sure that we are seen
to be treating people equally.
835
00:58:27,363 --> 00:58:33,202
He apparently does knock around
in his Bentley 4x4.
836
00:58:33,202 --> 00:58:36,722
From time to time
he's seen early in the morning
837
00:58:36,722 --> 00:58:39,762
going into a coffee shop in Hermanus
838
00:58:39,762 --> 00:58:45,843
with a cap drawn over his face,
and scarves, so he's not recognizable.
839
00:58:47,043 --> 00:58:49,523
[Rob Rose]
He is something of a pariah in Hermanus
840
00:58:49,523 --> 00:58:51,323
partly because so many people in that town
841
00:58:51,323 --> 00:58:55,363
had bought into his vision of Steinhoff
and had lost a lot of money on that.
842
00:58:55,363 --> 00:58:58,323
So the rumours of Markus-spotting
has become a bit of a sport
843
00:58:58,323 --> 00:59:01,043
in places like Stellenbosch and Cape Town,
where people say,
844
00:59:01,043 --> 00:59:04,642
"I saw him at Lanzerac last week."
"I saw him in a restaurant in Cape Town."
845
00:59:04,642 --> 00:59:06,443
But it's got to be a terrible life.
846
00:59:06,443 --> 00:59:09,043
I know Ingrid, his wife has stuck by him,
847
00:59:09,043 --> 00:59:12,242
which, given all the publicity
of his affairs,
848
00:59:12,242 --> 00:59:16,762
and the very public nature of those
is in itself quite extraordinary.
849
00:59:16,762 --> 00:59:20,602
There are frequent pictures of the walls
outside his house being painted with
850
00:59:20,602 --> 00:59:23,923
very mean slogans every day,
and having to be repainted the whole time.
851
00:59:29,602 --> 00:59:32,562
[Thys du Toit] I think his
circle of friends have changed a bit,
852
00:59:32,562 --> 00:59:35,122
but he had what I used to call
his praise singers.
853
00:59:35,122 --> 00:59:37,242
His "raasbende" his "imbongi".
854
00:59:37,242 --> 00:59:40,642
He had these people
that always tagged along for freebies
855
00:59:40,642 --> 00:59:45,242
and I'm sure they're all still
frequenting him, and they see him often.
856
00:59:45,242 --> 00:59:49,043
I haven't seen him. I often wonder
what I would do if I do see him.
857
00:59:49,682 --> 00:59:51,363
But let me not elaborate.
858
00:59:55,082 --> 00:59:57,242
[Rob Rose]
Did Markus apologize to you personally?
859
00:59:57,242 --> 00:59:58,363
No.
860
00:59:58,363 --> 01:00:02,323
If you were to see Markus just walking
here today, what would you say to him?
861
01:00:02,323 --> 01:00:05,523
-I should say, "Markus, fuck off."
-[both laughing]
862
01:00:08,923 --> 01:00:12,722
[director] If Markus was sitting in front
of you, what would you like to ask him?
863
01:00:12,722 --> 01:00:16,003
"Are you okay?" And I hope that he is.
864
01:00:16,003 --> 01:00:18,363
I'll ask him, '"Why?"
865
01:00:18,363 --> 01:00:24,883
And, "How did you think you could get
through it, you know, ad infinitum?"
866
01:00:24,883 --> 01:00:28,762
And then, being a little bit personal,
"Why did you target me?"
867
01:00:29,242 --> 01:00:32,403
This isn't a normal person.
868
01:00:33,162 --> 01:00:35,443
You've got to be an artist,
869
01:00:35,443 --> 01:00:40,403
knowing every button to push
with every person.
870
01:00:50,363 --> 01:00:53,003
[Dr Giada Del Fabbro] Money and status
does not change people.
871
01:00:53,003 --> 01:00:55,242
For the large part, they are who they are.
872
01:00:55,242 --> 01:00:59,403
And then, the way in which that money
and status is expressed or used,
873
01:00:59,403 --> 01:01:01,602
is a reflection of their morality.
874
01:01:02,282 --> 01:01:05,602
You know, you don't find people
suddenly becoming corrupt
875
01:01:05,602 --> 01:01:07,162
when they have a lot of money.
876
01:01:07,803 --> 01:01:10,483
It's really a trajectory, where,
from early on,
877
01:01:10,483 --> 01:01:14,323
their internal world has been formed
in the way
878
01:01:14,323 --> 01:01:16,403
that they are entitled
to get what they need,
879
01:01:16,403 --> 01:01:20,883
even if that means hurting other people,
breaking a law.
880
01:01:21,403 --> 01:01:26,803
Whatever he's got, he should hand it over
because it was ill-gotten gains.
881
01:01:27,282 --> 01:01:28,963
He needs to pay the price.
882
01:01:28,963 --> 01:01:31,803
The evidence is just so overwhelming
883
01:01:31,803 --> 01:01:36,602
and the cost to society is so huge,
884
01:01:36,602 --> 01:01:40,403
that to continue denying it,
you're only doing it for one reason,
885
01:01:40,403 --> 01:01:42,202
and that is for self-preservation.
886
01:01:42,202 --> 01:01:44,082
I speak to the police and ask them.
887
01:01:44,082 --> 01:01:48,122
They said they're
very confident they're...
888
01:01:48,122 --> 01:01:51,003
gonna get this case in court soon.
889
01:01:51,003 --> 01:01:54,803
But I mean, "soon" for the police
might be in six months' time.
890
01:01:54,803 --> 01:01:59,122
But I am definitely checking up
on them constantly. I'm not giving up.
891
01:01:59,122 --> 01:02:01,242
I'm sure he'll go to jail.
892
01:02:01,242 --> 01:02:03,963
It's so glaringly obvious.
893
01:02:03,963 --> 01:02:06,883
I'm sure that he has a million reasons
894
01:02:06,883 --> 01:02:09,843
how, why, and what
he did and why he did it.
895
01:02:09,843 --> 01:02:16,082
If he wants to be the macho Afrikaner
that he claims to be, then be that man.
896
01:02:16,082 --> 01:02:18,843
Stand up and have integrity.
897
01:02:18,843 --> 01:02:25,122
Admit to the world what you did, face the
consequences of that, and let us move on.
898
01:02:25,602 --> 01:02:27,843
But otherwise, Markus is just a gangster.
899
01:02:27,843 --> 01:02:30,762
He's just a street thug
as far as I'm concerned.