1 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:06,415 This program me contains some strong language and scenes which some viewers may find upsetting 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,415 Do you want to tell me about where we are? 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,895 Er... I mean we're in Bushwick. Bushwick in Brooklyn. 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,335 So, this is where you sometimes deejay? 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,015 Yeah. So we'll be speaking in here. Yeah. 6 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,335 We're using the space because there's not 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,575 a lot of room, like, where I live. Where you live? 8 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,775 I'm sorry that I missed Night Of 1,000 Britneys. 9 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:28,655 Actually, that's coming up. 10 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,375 Do you think the real Britney will be there? Probably not. 11 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,695 But does it matter... 1,000s... ..if it's in your heart? 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,815 Are you a Britney fan? I like Britney. Yeah. 13 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,735 Who else do you like? You got Cardi B, You've got Charli XCX. 14 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:42,375 Charlie XCX is from London, I think. 15 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,615 Yeah, I believe so. # After the after party... # 16 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,495 Exactly. Do you know that one? Yeah. 17 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:50,815 # We're gonna keep it going... # I played that before. 18 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,335 You left me hanging there. I thought you might join in. 19 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,375 I felt very alone. You're going to be very alone! 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,975 Chelsea Manning is arguably the most famous military 21 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,015 whistleblower in American history. 22 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,095 We're quite close, aren't we? Are you OK? 23 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:16,015 I'm just conscious that if you should feel that you want to... Optics. ..put your knees forward... 24 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,735 An intelligence analyst turned activist, who served seven 25 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,895 years for her leaks of classified information, 26 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,575 she'd agreed to a rare in-depth interview. 27 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:31,375 Thank you for doing this. 28 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,895 Doing what? This interview. Oh, yeah. It was on the calendar, so... 29 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,175 It's on the calendar because you agreed to do it. 30 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,415 Yeah. 31 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,615 I've got a high tolerance for awkwardness, 32 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,615 but yours is off the charts. Explain. 33 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,775 Well, you seemed to be more comfortable sitting in silence. 34 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,775 You're even better at it than I am. 35 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,295 I've done it for a long, long, long time. 36 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,255 Way longer than you can imagine, Louis. 37 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,135 What do you mean? Like, I'm older than you. 38 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:05,775 I've had way more practice than you. 39 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,135 I was in solitary confinement, and that's all that was, 40 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,735 me sitting there in silence. 41 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,535 I can just sit in silence for hours and hours and hours. 42 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,895 Across the river from Brooklyn, in Manhattan, Chelsea was 43 00:02:37,920 --> 00:02:42,055 showing me her favourite city, using her favourite mode of transport. 44 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,935 So... Just like your foot on the gas. 45 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,255 It's pressure sensitive. Yeah. 46 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:49,895 RINGS BELL 47 00:02:51,640 --> 00:02:53,735 That's it. Getting a workout. 48 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,895 Chelsea's lived in New York since 2020, 49 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:03,655 working in data security, doing talks and deejaying, 50 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,175 rebuilding a life that for years was in turmoil in the wake of her leaks. 51 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:10,895 How are you feeling, in general? 52 00:03:10,920 --> 00:03:13,455 Oh, this is a great year so far. Is it? Yeah. 53 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:18,575 This is the first year where I feel like we're actually back to 54 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,975 normal from the sort of chaos. Mm. 55 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,575 The war in Iraq had been in its seventh year when Chelsea, 56 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,775 an intelligence analyst going by her birth name Bradley, 57 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,335 was arrested for espionage and detained after sending a vast 58 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,575 trove of documents to the website WikiLeaks. 59 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,655 It is shameful that it was ever released to WikiLeaks. 60 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,215 It is even more shameful that it's then been public... 61 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:53,815 ...published for all the world to see. 62 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,895 It is probably the single greatest act and most terrible 63 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,775 act of espionage against the United States in our history. 64 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,055 Published by WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange, it revealed 65 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,335 the inside story of military misdeeds and political corruption. 66 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,895 Chelsea was sentenced to 35 years in prison, transitioning behind bars. 67 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,135 No justice, no peace! 68 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,295 Manning is a hero of our generation. 69 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,815 After widespread protests, her sentence was commuted. 70 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:29,335 Chelsea Manning, welcome to Democracy Now. Thanks for having me. 71 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,255 A hero to some, to others a traitor... 72 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:35,375 I think if you give up secrets that impact our military 73 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,295 when they're operating in a war zone, you have to be punished. 74 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,055 ...Chelsea remains controversial. 75 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,775 I was hoping to understand the meaning 76 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,135 and true cost of her decisions. 77 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:52,895 You've got coffee in there. 78 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:54,295 I do have coffee in here. 79 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,015 Now, I'm jealous. 80 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,255 Yeah, this is my coffee. How does it taste? 81 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:00,175 How does it taste? Amazing! 82 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,335 Brewed to perfection by an expert. 83 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,415 You were twice passed over to be assistant manager of a Starbucks. 84 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,335 I was. It's been a while. 85 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,455 And it struck me that if only you'd got the job, 86 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,815 your whole future might have been different. 87 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:15,375 Maybe. I don't know. 88 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:16,535 Why were you passed over? 89 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:18,495 I guess just, uh... 90 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,935 I mean, I was 18 years old, so I imagine... 91 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,935 They thought you were too raw. Maybe. You didn't burn the beans? 92 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:26,335 No, I didn't. 93 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,095 I didn't burn the beans. 94 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,095 Are we rolling, by the way? Everything's good? 95 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:35,975 Alpha, take one. 96 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,735 I'm conscious that, you know, 97 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,935 in getting to know you a little bit, you present as someone robust 98 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,855 with integrity, someone who's not afraid of speaking her mind. Right. 99 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,095 And that behind that, there is also a degree of vulnerability. 100 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,415 Is that fair? I mean, I've seen you in interviews, 101 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,415 seem to be ticking along and then you'll be overtaken by emotion. 102 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,055 Yeah. Yeah, it happens from time to time. 103 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,615 Is that something we need to keep an eye on as we talk? 104 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,215 No, I... 105 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:05,895 I think... 106 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:07,735 I think it's good. I think it's good. 107 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:13,535 I think it's good to be able to, you know, let yourself go 108 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,775 and let that tenderness that's inside of you out. 109 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,375 OK. If we sort of zoom out 110 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:25,495 and start digging into your story. At the point when you enlisted, 111 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,975 right, 2007, was it? 2007, yeah. October. 112 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,495 You were living with your aunt in Maryland. 113 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,415 And at that time you were identifying as, I guess, 114 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,455 as a gay man. Is that fair to say? Yeah. 115 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:44,575 That was what I knew, so like, figured out about myself, yeah. 116 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,575 One of the quotes you've given is that in enlisting in the Army, 117 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,575 you thought it might deal with some of your agenda. 118 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,535 Sure. I had known... You might "man up" was the quote. Exactly. 119 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:57,975 That was what my father was telling me. 120 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,095 He was insisting on me manning up. 121 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,415 I think you were aware that you were trans, or might be trans. 122 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:09,335 A little bit, yeah. And that... I hadn't seen a... I hadn't really talked to a therapist about it. 123 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,695 I was scared that my family would reject me. 124 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:19,335 The war had been going on in Iraq for four years and I think it's 125 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:24,295 safe to say, non-controversially, that it had been a total disaster. 126 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,215 As an intelligent person, did it not seem to you that this is a bankrupt 127 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,855 enterprise, like, you know, the idea of foisting democracy on llraq... 128 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,055 No. ..that this is hopeless? 129 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:38,215 In a sense, that's what kind of attracted me to it. 130 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:40,215 At 19, 20 years... No, everyone was telling me, 131 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,495 yeah, this is what you should do. 132 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,655 So I viewed this as like, yes, absolutely, doing something 133 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,495 to defend my country, defend my community, protect... 134 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:55,695 You know, protect my fellow citizens was very important to me. 135 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,135 I suppose we should paint the picture a bit. 136 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,175 2007708, there's a training process. 137 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,575 You are going through the drills... Yeah. 138 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,695 ...and you're being prepped to become an intelligence analyst. 139 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:12,055 And then come 2009, you're deployed, right, to Iraq to a base called... 140 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,655 Hammer. They call it Hammer. 141 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,935 I mean, this is where the kind of the rubber hits the road, I suppose, 142 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,135 in the sense that your work involved 143 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,575 analysing huge amounts of data, right? 144 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,975 Essentially, my job, it's what we would call now data science. 145 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,535 So, my job is to collect gigantic amounts of information. 146 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,815 Videos, combat reports... Yeah. 147 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,895 And sort it, design and develop these models, right? 148 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,295 In order for troops and the higher- ups to get kind of as accurate 149 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,855 as possible assessment of how people are going to behave, how the 150 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,735 insurgency will unfold, and sort of where risks are and whatnot? 151 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:54,375 Yeah. It's sort of like hitting the enhance button on a photograph 152 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,255 and then it gets sharper and sharper and sharper. 153 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,455 And so that was essentially our role was to 154 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,975 have as sharp a picture of what is going to happen 155 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:10,655 and how we can adjust operations and change that picture. 156 00:09:10,680 --> 00:09:14,815 You, at your little computer station in your ply board box, 157 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:16,895 you know, east of Baghdad, 158 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,375 you have all this vast array of information at your fingertips. Yeah, defence-related. 159 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:26,015 How are you finding the experience of being there, on a human level? 160 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,655 The experience of this job? Yeah. 161 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:32,775 I didn't think about it much for a bit. 162 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,335 You were kind of knuckling down and doing the work? 163 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,535 Were you beginning to think this isn't a good fit for me, were you beginning to think...? 164 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:41,295 No, I thought, I'm perfect for this. 165 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,335 Mm-hm. I am the best at this. 166 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,935 When I'm doing this stuff and I get really into it, 167 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:51,015 I start to see the math problems right in front of me, like 168 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:56,415 I thought of myself as trying to solve the war in Iraq through math. 169 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,455 What do you mean by that? 170 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,735 How do I alter the model to have the most optimal outcome? 171 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:07,855 And as I'm going through this work, it dawns on me that this 172 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,575 model in my head, that this 173 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:15,735 sea of information that I'm working with, is tied to real people. 174 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:20,055 And the more emotionally affected that I felt by everything, 175 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,135 the more work I would do. I couldn't stop thinking about it. 176 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:24,855 I couldn't stop doing the stuff. 177 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,055 The work was not just staying in the office, 178 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:33,135 it was coming with me to the dining facility and to my... 179 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:35,335 Into my dreams. 180 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,895 It was creeping into every aspect of my psyche and in my life. 181 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,575 I started to come to the realisation that this is a human problem 182 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,215 and not a statistical one. 183 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,575 One piece of material Chelsea saw was a video, later titled 184 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,495 Collateral Murder. 185 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,535 It showed an air to ground attack from two US Apache helicopters 186 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:10,255 in an area of East Baghdad where there had been fighting. 187 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,095 GUNFIRE 188 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:16,735 Among those killed were a Reuters photographer 189 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,495 and his driver after their camera was mistaken for a rocket launcher. 190 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,535 A passing van stopped to help. 191 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:32,935 It, too, was shot up and two small children inside injured, 192 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,935 before US ground troops arrived on the scene. 193 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,815 For many, the video encapsulated the true horror of the war. 194 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,455 You've said that it was maybe playing openly around the base. 195 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,295 Yeah, I saw somebody else watching it 196 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,215 and saw it in passing or whatever. 197 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:02,015 It was a level of callousness I hadn't seen. 198 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,375 I think that it's sort of a microcosm of the entirety 199 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,575 of the conflict because I got the sense the guys on the ground, 200 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,935 they saw what happened, they figured out what happened and they're 201 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,895 like, "Oh, my God, we got to get these kids to the hospital.” 202 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:22,655 You mean the US soldiers on the ground? Yeah, and also, there's the good Samaritans. 203 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:28,415 You see the best and the worst of humanity in a single, like, 30-minute window. 204 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:37,415 What's maybe even more striking is that it all takes place 205 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,895 within the rules of engagement. Right? It was investigated. 206 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,375 Eh... I never got the sense that there WERE any rules, sometimes. 207 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:51,495 Everything was just so messy and flexible and morally ambiguous. 208 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,655 You know, what it says on paper versus what 209 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:57,375 happens on the ground in reality, or so, are different. 210 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,895 And so who's in charge of who? 211 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,255 It just, it's all so grey. 212 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:04,615 And, you know, that's sort of the... 213 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,255 That's sort of the mentality that we had on the ground, I feel like, 214 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,095 was like sure, the rules say that, but here's the reality. 215 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,535 And like, that was like the constant thing was like, well, 216 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:17,615 our papers say this is the procedure 217 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,895 and this is the regulation. 218 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,735 And it'd be like, well, we're in the field... 219 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,135 You know, we're doing field expedient versions of that. 220 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,575 And that was when I felt so helpless 221 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,815 and I felt I'm inside of the problem. 222 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,655 Your critics would characterise the situation as you were going 223 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:43,975 through kind of a breakdown, 224 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,495 you were going through a difficult time with your then boyfriend, 225 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,775 right? Yeah. You were working nights, 226 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,495 which I think is not good for mental health in general. 227 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,455 You'd punched one of your superior officers at one point. Yes. 228 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,135 Well, she was not a superior. That was the whole argument, 229 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,375 was that she was in no position to try to tell me what to do. 230 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,495 Um... But... Then you'd been found, like, curled in a foetal position, 231 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,335 on another occasion. Yeah, because she kept bullying me. 232 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,455 But I just want to... You know, just to fast forward a little bit, 233 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,295 what ends up happening is the biggest data leak in military 234 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,535 history, 750,000... Records. Records. 235 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,575 When you start downloading material, are you thinking, 236 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,975 this is a life-changing moment? 237 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,215 I did have this sense of people need to know. 238 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,855 Mm-hm. In order to just change the situation? Yeah. 239 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,895 It almost felt anti-democratic to have nobody have 240 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:48,175 access to the on-the-ground reality, or picture, when it's so important. 241 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,095 Like, I viewed it as my duty. 242 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,175 After reaching out to the New York Times and The Washington Post, 243 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,175 Chelsea ended up sending the material to Wikileaks. 244 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,735 Some months later, the documents were published. 245 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,735 The story was almost too big to be easily comprehensible. 246 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,735 Files from Iraq detailed torture by the coalition-backed regime. 247 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,655 Afghan war logs revealed hundreds of undisclosed cases of civilians 248 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,815 killed by UK and US troops... 249 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:24,815 ...while classified diplomatic cables 250 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,535 revealed the US State Department spying on its allies. 251 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,855 I am not going to get into commenting on classified material. 252 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,335 I have said what I'm going to say on that topic. 253 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,335 In the meantime, Chelsea had been arrested 254 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,895 and taken to military jail in the US, 255 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,295 where she was kept in solitary, allegedly for her own protection. 256 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:51,695 At trial in 2013, she was sentenced to 35 years. 257 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,615 Do you think you should not have been punished? 258 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,655 I knew I was going to get in trouble. 259 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,095 I knew that I was going outside bounds. But, you know, 260 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,775 I was the first person to go to prison for an unauthorised 261 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,855 disclosure to the media, so I had no precedent to work off of. 262 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:17,295 Do you think you still carry some of the scars of your incarceration? 263 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,415 Sure. I have some scars. 264 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,455 Sure. I was hurt by this process. 265 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:27,575 While incarcerated there were two, I think, suicide attempts. 266 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:32,255 The attempt in 2016 was the most serious. 267 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,495 Right. After the Pulse shooting. 268 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:36,815 Pulse nightclub. 269 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,215 A shooter went in and killed over 50 gay and lesbian and trans people. 270 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,535 Yeah. Friends of mine from that community were there that night. 271 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,335 You know, I had to track them down. 272 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,535 And, you know, there was uncertainty. 273 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,335 And some of them knew people who were casualties. 274 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,615 I was so affected by it and I was so hurt by it that I had a really 275 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:03,935 rough time the weeks after that happened, and it sent me spiralling. 276 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:08,095 The sort of fight to get surgery was starting to come up 277 00:17:08,120 --> 00:17:13,175 and to see the Obama administration, like, essentially taking 278 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,535 this tragedy thar had happened and using it and saying... 279 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,575 And, you know, putting up rainbow flags and trans flags 280 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,855 everywhere and, you know, saying that, you know, they're doing good. 281 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,815 And then I'm... And then I'm in there struggling. 282 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,455 And for them to do that at the same time and then have this fight 283 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,295 and the sense that if this progressive administration is 284 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,175 fighting me on this, like, how am I ever going to get through this? 285 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,015 And I just gave up. 286 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:53,855 Let's be clear. 287 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,615 Chelsea Manning has served 288 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,095 a tough prison sentence. 289 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,055 In January 2017, in one of his last acts in office, 290 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,295 President Obama commuted Chelsea's sentence, 291 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,575 ordering her released for the seven years she'd served. 292 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,695 The decision wasn't popular in all quarters. 293 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,495 Private Manning was a traitor in 2013 294 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,815 and Private Manning as a traitor in 2017. 295 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,975 Emerging from prison famous, she began a new life campaigning 296 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,815 and doing work in the tech sector. 297 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,215 Hi, Chelsea. Good to see you again. Bring it in. All right. 298 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,615 Two of those in her circle are her management team, Ashna and Dipesh. 299 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,255 Nice to meet you. Ashna. How you doing? I'm Dipesh. 300 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,375 Dipesh. Nice to meet you guys. Nice to meet you as well. We're in New York City. Yeah. 301 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,455 Does life get any better? 302 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,775 Er... It can! LAUGHTER 303 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,335 We'd arranged to spend a day experiencing 304 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:56,055 some of the pleasures of the city. 305 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,655 HORN BLARES 306 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,495 That was... That was quite dangerous. 307 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,695 Are you OK? Yeah, I mean, I'm fine, but... 308 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,975 It's pretty normal. He's a federal employee. 309 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,415 I don't think about it. I just live. It's New York. 310 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,695 Our first stop, an al fresco lunch in Manhattan's Union Square, 311 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,095 ...just three miles from the site of the attack on 9/11 that 312 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:26,895 provided the original pretext for the war in Iraq. 313 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,295 You and Ashna and Dipesh, you're friends, right, 314 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,055 in addition to working together? We're colleagues. Colleagues. 315 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:37,895 Primarily, I'd put us in that category. 316 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,415 How do you define what you see Chelsea's mission as, 317 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,375 or you as a team, what your mission is? 318 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,655 There's Chelsea herself, who has become 319 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,495 a representative of a certain kind of necessary political 320 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:56,055 transparency and I see the company's evolution as taking a lot of 321 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,735 those political values and putting them toward changing the landscape. 322 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,255 Absolutely. I mean to take it back a little bit, I'm from New York. 323 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,455 I was in high school when 9/11 happened. Right? 324 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,655 And one of the things that was really horrifying was 325 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,255 everything that was happening in the name of patriotism. 326 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,095 When I was younger, it was like, oh, we're immigrants. 327 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:19,935 Like, they gave us a chance here. Great. 328 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,775 But after that, considering what happened to people who 329 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,175 look like my family and my community, that changed a lot. 330 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,775 And then when I heard Chelsea's story, initially, 331 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,735 I was pretty struck because I was like, 332 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:38,575 oh, this is actually pretty profound actual patriotism. 333 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,655 Someone who is doing something that's at great 334 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,215 risk of their self-care, to hold her people and nation accountable to 335 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,375 a higher standard that the country purports are its founding values. 336 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,335 A little later, we headed back to Brooklyn to visit a couple of thrift shops. 337 00:20:58,360 --> 00:20:59,735 I really like these. 338 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,175 No way. 339 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:02,575 These are ridiculous. 340 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:04,855 CHUCKLES 341 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,175 Her pantsuits were red? Red or navy. 342 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,815 Red or navy. OK. 343 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,295 Anything that you like? 344 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,895 I was just observing the Clinton-esque pantsuit. 345 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,095 Right. Hillary or Bill? 346 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:21,175 CHUCKLES 347 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,255 Do you ever run into any kind of harassment, 348 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,335 or people who say, "You're a traitor to this country"? 349 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:31,335 Typically, I get people, they just want to take selfies with me. 350 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:33,775 There's like a lot of the like, "You mean a lot to me. 351 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,335 "You're inspirational. You're an idol." 352 00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:39,335 Is it more to do with the leaking and whistle blowing, or is it 353 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,975 more to do with being someone who's been outspoken about her trans-ness? 354 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,815 I don't know what it is. I don't understand it. 355 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,335 I feel kind of like this sort of unfair high expectation 356 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:54,415 that's put on me. I just like... I've never figured anything out. 357 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,695 I essentially was just launched out into the world at 29 years old. 358 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,335 And I don't know who I am. 359 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,135 I can relate with younger folks, I feel. 360 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:04,375 Me too. 361 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:07,975 I'm young at heart. 362 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,975 You're young at heart? I sincerely doubt that! 363 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,295 Rawr! 364 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,895 Are you going to take me to the burns unit? No. 365 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,575 I need attention for my burns. 366 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,815 I'm sorry. I apologise. I have no filter. 367 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,255 See you tomorrow. Yes. See you tomorrow. 368 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:30,495 Bye. Bye. 369 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:34,695 And with that, she was gone. 370 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,735 And with that, she was gone! 371 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,895 As Chelsea has picked her life back up, 372 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,655 the reverberations of her actions have continued. 373 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,815 We're in a situation where our technology means 374 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,935 we don't know who our sources are. 375 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,415 We verify documents. We don't verify sources. 376 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,855 While Chelsea awaited trial, her publisher, Julian Assange, 377 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,295 took refuge in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London after being 378 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,575 accused of sexual assault. 379 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,415 The United States must pledge, 380 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,695 before the world, that it will not pursue journalists for shining 381 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,255 a light on the secret crimes of the powerful. 382 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,375 That case was later dropped. 383 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:24,135 Seven years on, in 2019, Assange was removed and detained at 384 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,415 Belmarsh Prison on espionage charges connected with Chelsea's case. 385 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,815 I was curious to know Chelsea's thoughts. 386 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,015 Do you have any relationship with Julian Assange? No. 387 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,295 You never met him, correct? No. He's in jail now, right? 388 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,935 He's in Belmarsh. Mm. His case is very much live. 389 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,855 It seems ever more likely that he may get extradited to the US 390 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,975 to face a possible... Do you know how long, like 50 years, is it? 391 00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,615 I don't. A long prison sentence. 392 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,135 His position is that he's a publisher 393 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,535 and journalist, who was publishing material, 394 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,175 just as the New York Times or The Guardian... Sure. ..might publish something. 395 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,335 The US government position is that 396 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:18,135 because he allegedly helped you 397 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,335 with some technical stuff... 398 00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:23,055 Alleged technical help...to me? 399 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:27,295 That's the... That's the case. I don't think... I don't think I need that. 400 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,735 That makes him a kind of co-conspirator in espionage. 401 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,415 Again, I only mention this because this is a live issue... Right. ..and people will associate you. 402 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,815 I think it's probably worth saying, for WikiLeaks, the material that 403 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,935 you released was far and away the biggest... 404 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,735 The biggest event for them. 405 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,815 That it kind of put them on the map with a vast amount of data 406 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,495 and since then, they haven't had anything like the impact. 407 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,175 So you're inextricably connected, in that sense, in the public mind. 408 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,575 Well, look, I went looking for a publisher, and I'm not... 409 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,135 I don't really care about the... Who publishes what. 410 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,655 I care about the fact that it's available, that it was available. 411 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,055 Do you take a position? Again... Because, you know, one of the frustrating things that I have 412 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,495 is I'm often asked questions that have nothing to do with me 413 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,575 and I don't know about another person's case. 414 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,375 Oh, yeah, I know. And I'm trying... I don't expect you to and I'm trying to... 415 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:28,775 Can I ask one last question on this? 416 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,055 Just because it's in the news, because it's a live case? 417 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,015 Do you support Julian Assange? 418 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,375 Look, I don't know enough about the situation and I... 419 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,535 I do... Look, I'm constantly dogged with all of these questions about what 420 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,215 happened in 2010 and what happened in 2013. 421 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:45,775 There's a court martial record. 422 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,615 We went through this process over a decade ago. 423 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:50,055 I refer you to that. 424 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,095 Yeah, I know. I hope I didn't cause any of fence. And I'm not... 425 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:58,335 I can see it's like... It's, yeah. What is it? 426 00:25:58,360 --> 00:26:03,175 I get a little irritated because it becomes... 427 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,375 Because these events that happened in 2010 become about some 428 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,295 other person that I have no, that I've never met, that I have no... 429 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,055 I'm constantly being asked questions about some other person. 430 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,015 And I... It's like, what about me? 431 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,415 Like, I... I feel like I am forgotten about. 432 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,055 And I'm always the side... I'm always the side character in my own life. And I'm tired of that. 433 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,095 I'm constantly being asked about other people. You know, somebody else does something similar 434 00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:33,695 and I'm constantly asked questions. I am the side character in my own life. And it's exhausting. 435 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:34,935 Can we take a break? 436 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,695 I need coffee. 437 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,175 I'm hot mic'ed. We're hot mic'ed, just a heads up. 438 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,255 Along with Assange, the other figure often mentioned in the same 439 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,775 breath as Chelsea is her fellow whistleblower, Edward Snowden... 440 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:01,775 ...the former government contractor, 441 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,775 In 2013, Snowden revealed that the US was routinely stockpiling 442 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,575 data from the emails and phone calls of private citizens 443 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,095 in a vast facility in Utah. 444 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:14,295 I'm glad for the decisions that I made. 445 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,935 And I'm thankful to all of you who are supporting me 446 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,775 and believe in the same. 447 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,495 Increasingly alarmed about the power of data collection, 448 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,775 Chelsea also took up the cause of digital privacy 449 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,295 and freedom from surveillance by governments and corporations. 450 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,815 We as developers are complicit in the software that we write, 451 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,375 and, I would argue, how it gets used and how it gets misused. 452 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,415 Technologists no longer can just say, 453 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,495 "We bring you tools - here they are, 454 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,775 "now society figure out how to use them.” 455 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,535 But she's also said she's conflicted about her new public role 456 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,415 and that at times she feels her fame is disproportionate. 457 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,615 In Madrid, she'd been invited to address a conference about women 458 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:01,775 and leadership. 459 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,175 She'd asked me along. 460 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,215 Can we come in? No. 461 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,375 I'm kidding. This is a Spanish hotel, I guess. 462 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,095 A Spanish hotel room. 463 00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:18,175 It's not the most glitzy or glamorous, but it's what we got. 464 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,975 Plenty of room. Sure. Bigger than mine. Yeah. 465 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,335 Have you got your keys? Thank you. Yes, I've got my keys. 466 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:27,615 Do you feel prepped, as far as your talk? Yeah. 467 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,335 You're on top of the brief? Oh, yeah, definitely. 468 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:42,055 It's good to see you. 469 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,015 APPLAUSE 470 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,015 Thank you. Great to be here. 471 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,415 This is my first time in Madrid. Great. 472 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,735 Chelsea delivered a message, mainly on the dangers of tech... 473 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,255 I do have concerns about extraneous data that is being collected about us. 474 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,535 It's not the data that we're sharing about ourselves, 475 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,255 it's the things that we don't even realise we're leaking. 476 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,255 ...side-stepping questions about her views on other, 477 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,535 more personal social issues. 478 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,495 You have become a very prominent advocate for LGBT rights... 479 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,415 Somehow, you know. It's not something that I really talk about all that much, so... 480 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,815 But you admit that you often have to deal with a little bit of imposter 481 00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,975 syndrome, which is something that we all have to deal with... Absolutely, I definitely live with that. 482 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,655 Here she is. Great. 483 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,495 Fantastic. Fantastic, super, super. 484 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,335 Great. We love it. Thank you. We love it. Thank you. Muchas gracias. 485 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,735 Post conference, Chelsea headed back to the hotel. 486 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,495 She'd been keen to get in some gaming time. 487 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,015 Am I all right to make myself comfortable here? Sure. Go for it. 488 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,655 This is a more authentic Chelsea experience here. 489 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,975 I shoot arrows and the arrows go and hit the lightning. 490 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,735 I died, obviously, because I got attacked. 491 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,975 Have you killed this monster before? I have. 492 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,575 So, how come you're doing it again? 493 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,735 Because I wanted to do the play throughs a bit differently. 494 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,295 Right. So... I love that attention to detail. 495 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,815 I felt I was seeing Chelsea in her most natural mode... 496 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,655 ...absorbed in the data problem-solving exercise 497 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,295 that is The Legend Of Zelda. 498 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:48,415 Does it matter if you die, you're going to have to go back somewhere? I have a save. You hit a save point. 499 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,695 But I'm like not in the zone at all either. 500 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,495 No one's judging you. Yeah. 501 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:06,975 Chelsea's love of tech 502 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,895 and virtuality started early as a child in Crescent, Oklahoma, where 503 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:17,695 she grew up middle class, a gifted student and confirmed computer nerd. 504 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,015 Born to parents who didn't get along, sibling to a much 505 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,095 older sister, isolated on the edge of a small town. 506 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,495 Your parents had met in Wales, right? 507 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,535 Your dad was in the military? Was he in the... He was in the Navy. In the Navy. Yeah. 508 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,335 He's Brian. She's Sue? Susan. Susan. 509 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,015 And then she came back to Oklahoma to live with him. 510 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:45,495 You were in Crescent, Oklahoma... For most of my childhood. 511 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,375 Early childhood. Which is seems to be tiny, like a couple of thousand people maximum. Right? 512 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:51,735 Less than. 513 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:56,335 And then we live on this like, you know, kind of secluded ranch. 514 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,055 On the outskirts of town? Yeah. Your mum was drinking a lot. Can I say that? Yes. 515 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,615 My mother was diagnosed, even, with alcoholism. 516 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,455 It got to a point where by the time I was eight or nine, 517 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,415 my mother would, while getting me ready for school, 518 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:20,215 she was already putting vodka in her, in her breakfast drinks. 519 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,575 And I did deal with my father being very abusive. 520 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,735 Verbally or physically? 521 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:33,375 Mostly physically. To whom? To everyone in my family, really. 522 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:42,575 I wanted my father to tell me that he loved me, that I was a good kid. 523 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,975 That he was proud of me. That's all I wanted. 524 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,895 And I still wanted that. Yeah. 525 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,615 Do you still want that now? 526 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,135 I... I don't care. 527 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,895 I've... 528 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,455 I've let go of that. 529 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,335 My father will never do that. 530 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,095 I don't know where he is. 531 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,055 Is he not back in Oklahoma? 532 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,935 I don't know. 533 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,735 I don't know where he is. 534 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,815 One of the things that came up at trial was, I think 535 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,335 it was your lawyer said that you have Asperger's? 536 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,295 No, I do not. 537 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,855 I met the criteria for it on paper. 538 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,695 And so it was more of an argument for mitigation at trial. 539 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,495 Like, every time that I would see a psychiatrist in the military, 540 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,575 I would get a different... I was getting different diagnoses. 541 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,855 And the argument that the last several therapists have had 542 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,735 is that many of these were undiagnosed complex PTSD. 543 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,695 Many of the symptoms that I had had to do with sort of traumas 544 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,335 that been built up. In childhood, or in prison, in the army? 545 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:44,815 Yeah, all of it. 546 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,375 As recently as 2018, on the campaign trail, 547 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,255 when you were running for Senate... 548 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,655 I ran for Senate in the state of Maryland. 549 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,255 You got 6%. 550 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,855 Yeah, well, that was after my campaign, sort of... 551 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,255 You sort of slightly bailed on it. Yeah. 552 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,215 But there was a moment where you tweeted 553 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,815 a picture of yourself on a window ledge? Yeah. 554 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,215 I was in Milan. 555 00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:12,455 Mm-hm. I was in this five-star hotel. 556 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,415 I had just done a speaking event. 557 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,615 And I took a long, hot bath, 558 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:24,255 and I was in this, like, luxurious space 559 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,335 and with all these nice things, 560 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:31,055 and I've never felt more empty than I felt in that moment. 561 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:36,615 I was dealing with a lot of people who thought, "I supported you 562 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:41,855 "because you were against this system and, you know, out to... 563 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,575 "But it seems more like you're just another one of them, 564 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,855 "a suit, somebody who has sold out.” 565 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:56,015 And I had some close friends of mine tweet about me, 566 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,895 "I don't know why I supported Chelsea's release,” 567 00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:01,495 and that made me... 568 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:03,095 That hurt me. 569 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,215 And I saw a couple more of those on Twitter. 570 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:08,855 And I'm in this place in Milan. 571 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:13,095 And I tried calling my friends and, um... 572 00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,575 And I tried calling my family and I tried calling anybody, like, 573 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,855 I just... And nobody would answer, nobody would pick up the phone. 574 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:25,735 And I couldn't... I didn't feel like I had a community any more. 575 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,295 It makes no sense from the outside, I'm sure. 576 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,095 But I've essentially taken all of the goodwill that I've 577 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,975 developed over the last decade of my life and thrown it away to 578 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:42,775 pursue... To pursue some dream of, you know, trying to do 579 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,095 something in my community and in my... And in the world. 580 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,615 And I went on the ledge 581 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:54,095 and I don't remember exactly how it went down, but I... 582 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,535 I got a call from a good friend of mine, 583 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:02,535 who is trained in suicide prevention... Mm-hm. 584 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:03,575 ...and... 585 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,455 ...she told me this joke. It was like a two-part joke. 586 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,215 So she's like doing the thing and she's like, withholding the punch line. And I... 587 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,175 And she's just like, "I'm not going to tell you the punch line 588 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:20,455 "until you get down." 589 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,735 I'm like, "OK, I'll get down." 590 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,175 Yeah. I... 591 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:28,815 Do you want to take a break? Yeah. 592 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,335 Yeah. I want to take a break. Clean up. 593 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,095 I lost myself for bit. 594 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,415 He just asked questions that nobody's ever bothered to ask. 595 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,335 Chelsea's healing is very much still a work in progress. 596 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,975 In 2019, she went back to prison 597 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,495 when she defied what she viewed as illegitimate attempt to make 598 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,255 her testify in Julian Assange's court case. 599 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,495 In having been so long incarcerated, she's spoken 600 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,015 often about the difficulty adjusting to aspects of everyday life. 601 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,375 I was curious about this more personal side. 602 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,095 OK. 603 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,015 We continue? Yes, sorry. 604 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,575 Nothing to apologise for. 605 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,295 Can we talk about relationships? 606 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,095 Um... 607 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,495 Prior... I mean, like old relationships? 608 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:38,855 Or new? 609 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,375 Um... I mean, I would prefer just the past stuff. 610 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:45,335 Are you in a relationship? 611 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:46,735 Um... 612 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,055 I'd rather not say. Mm-hm. 613 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,375 I mean, I don't think it's anybody's business. 614 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:58,495 I would rather my private life and my relationships 615 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,455 be private until... 616 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,855 Until I feel comfortable. Yeah. 617 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:05,095 But, yeah. 618 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,495 Right. You put me right back in my box. Yep. 619 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,095 It's nobody's business. 620 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:20,055 Except for whoever I'm... I'm not or I am dating at any given time. 621 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,135 Nevertheless, you are a public figure, right? 622 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:25,255 I am. 623 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,255 And I don't say that you have to play the game, 624 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:29,895 or whatever the relevant cliche is, 625 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,855 but what I sense is that you're not wholly avoiding it. 626 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:37,495 You have a... You do work as a speaker, as an advocate. 627 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:42,295 Yeah, I'm trying to... You're a role model. I'm trying to cool down the speculation in my life, 628 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:46,215 like the 2010 stuff, the 2013 stuff, the constants... 629 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:48,135 Like, I'm trying to move on. 630 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,015 I'm trying to establish myself as an academic, 631 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,095 as...a writer. 632 00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,095 I read something you said where you talked about feeling that you 633 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,735 find it a Little maybe disturbing, the idea of being a role model 634 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,015 and a spokesperson... A little bit. 635 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,895 And I get that a lot. Why would you find that troubling? 636 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,495 I find it troubling 637 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,375 because I'm woefully unequipped to be a role model for anyone. 638 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:15,655 In what way? 639 00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:21,975 I don't have any superpowers, or skills beyond like, do... 640 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,215 You know, like, figure out some math problems and, you know, 641 00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:28,455 looking sharp and showing up on time. 642 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,415 You know, I can talk about Al. I can talk about technology. 643 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,695 I have no particular...skill 644 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,975 when it comes to interpersonal relationships. 645 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,015 And I'm not a movie star. 646 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,255 I don't... I can't act. I'm not a painter. 647 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,695 What accomplishments do I actually have on paper? 648 00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:52,135 Well, your supporters would say that by doing what you did, 649 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:57,015 you helped end the war in Iraq, among many other things. OK. 650 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:10,015 I wish it wasn't like... I wish I wasn't a fluke. 651 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,215 Because that's how I feel often. 652 00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:22,135 I am just somebody who figured out what was going on. 653 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,815 And then once I... Once I thought about it, I'm like, "Ah, 654 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,175 "now I can't un-think it." 655 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,055 And that just makes me a fluke. 656 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,775 Like a statistical fluke. 657 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,455 What you call a fluke, you could also call being the right 658 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,575 person in the right place at the right time. 659 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:50,895 Maybe. 660 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,215 But I think fundamentally, if you graph it out, 661 00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:56,655 it's just a statistical anomaly. 662 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,895 We are now more than 13 years on from Chelsea's leaks. 663 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,295 Sectarian violence and corruption are still rife in Iraq. 664 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,855 The war is widely acknowledged to have been a catastrophe. 665 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,575 The collection of data by governments 666 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,895 and corporations has also continued apace, the little we know 667 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:28,215 about their practices being revealed by a handful of whistleblowers. 668 00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:31,695 Facebook's products harm children, stoke division 669 00:41:31,720 --> 00:41:33,455 and weaken our democracy. 670 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,255 The company's leadership knows how to make Facebook 671 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,735 and Instagram safer, but won't make the necessary changes 672 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,375 because they have put their astronomical profits before people. 673 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:48,255 Along with the vast and terrifying power of technology, 674 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,455 and its ability to control lives, 675 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,775 has come a need for transparency that is greater than ever. 676 00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:59,495 The night of our interview, 677 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,935 I joined Chelsea for her DJ set at The $3 Bill. 678 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,215 Seeing her in a place where she was totally accepted, 679 00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:25,095 I reflected on Chelsea's bravery, 680 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:29,135 mixed in with a kind of naivety, 681 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:34,655 her frailties overlapping and maybe inseparable from her gifts. 682 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,375 Final thoughts? 683 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,175 On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate your experience? 684 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:42,935 How do I rate my experience? Seven. 685 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,335 So boring. 686 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,055 I knew you were going to say seven before you even said it. 687 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,375 Yeah? Right? Yeah. Because it's... That was the experience we had, it was a seven. 688 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,455 What would have made it an eight or nine? 689 00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:56,255 An eight or nine would have been if it was... 690 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,655 If we went to the beach, or if we went on a roller coaster. 691 00:42:58,680 --> 00:42:59,895 That would have made it... 692 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,735 That would have made it even better. 693 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,695 And a ten? 694 00:43:04,720 --> 00:43:06,935 And a ten? If we went skydiving. 695 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,895 I don't believe any documentary team's ever taken you to the 696 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,735 beach or a roller coaster. 697 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,655 I don't think they have either. But that would make it a ten. 698 00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:19,415 Thank you so much. Thank you so much. 699 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,375 It's been a real pleasure and a privilege, Chelsea. Thank you for trusting us with your story. 700 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:28,175 Of course. Louis, a pleasure. Likewise. Thank you for having us. Yeah. Get home safely.