1
00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,200
'Mary and George Villiers, the most
fascinating mother-and-son duo

2
00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,000
in British history that you've
probably never heard of.

3
00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,120
Mary, a down-and-out aristocrat

4
00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:12,000
with a cunning wit and
insatiable desire for power.

5
00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:14,760
And George,
her impossibly beautiful son,

6
00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,680
who proved the ultimate weapon
for penetrating

7
00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,560
and then dominating
King James's court.

8
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,560
The two rocked the foundations
of 17th-century England,

9
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,280
performing an astonishing display
of social climbing

10
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,240
to wreak political havoc and
seize a terrifying volume of power.

11
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,560
As someone with a lifelong
obsession with iconic women,

12
00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:35,920
and something of a penchant
for niche trivia,

13
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,760
I want to know more about this
tumultuous period of Jacobean history

14
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,320
and about the lives
of the courtiers and royals

15
00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,000
as they romped their way -
on horseback, obviously -

16
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,280
through the early 1600s.

17
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,800
So I'm here to meet the new wave
of historians unravelling

18
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,960
these complex, messy,
emotional versions of our past

19
00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,760
and the creative forces responsible
for bringing it all back to life.

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00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,560
This is Jacobean history,
but not as you know it.

21
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,080
This is Mary & George...

22
00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:03,800
& me.

23
00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,840
The audacious historical
psychodrama Mary & George

24
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:09,240
has resurrected these formidable
characters to portray

25
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,120
a twisted battle of sex,
love and power.

26
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,039
But in order to fully grasp
the societal structures

27
00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,760
that Mary so elegantly dismantled,
I wanted to know a little bit more

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00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,000
about Jacobean Times
and King James I's English reign,

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which is where my new best friend,
author, scholar and lowkey genius

30
00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,400
Katherine Rundell, comes into play.'

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So to begin with, do you mind giving
us just a kind of broad overview

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00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,720
to what's so fascinating about
this section of British history?

33
00:01:34,759 --> 00:01:37,120
If you picked up the Jacobean court

34
00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,600
and turned it upside down
and shook it...(CHUCKLES)

35
00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,520
..out of it would fall so many

36
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,960
schemes and love affairs

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00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,840
and a thousand machinating souls.

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00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,520
It was a time where,
if you could not strategise,

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00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,920
you fell by the wayside.
And it was also

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00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,480
incredibly glamorous.

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00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,479
It was a moment where people
were moving away from the more

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00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,680
strict chivalric code of Elizabeth

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00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,640
and toward something a little bit
looser, a little bit wilder.

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00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,640
'Cut! Hold it there.

45
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,920
OK, so short intermission for those
who slept through history class.

46
00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,440
The Jacobean Era -
'Jacobus' being Latin for 'James' -

47
00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,240
spans from 1603 to 1625,

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00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,440
and is best known
for its cultural bangers,

49
00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,680
namely Shakespeare,
Guy Fawkes' gunpowder plot,

50
00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,600
and King James's v popular
translation of the Bible,

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00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:27,960
which remains one of the most
widely read texts in the world.

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00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,680
Starting life with a bang,
no pun intended,

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00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,640
in 1567, barely out of nappies,

54
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,440
James, aged one,
becomes king of Scotland

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00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,600
after his mother,
Mary, Queen of Scots,

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00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:40,680
was forced off the throne
and imprisoned.

57
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,200
In 1603, when Queen Elizabeth I
died without an heir,

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00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,440
James inherited the English crown
to become King James I of England

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00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,080
and VI of Scotland: a step
towards unifying the two nations.

60
00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,640
And now back to the main event.'

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00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,760
What can you tell us about
James I and how he rose to power?

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00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,920
Shortly after he became king,

63
00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:03,400
a secretary wrote
to the Doge of Venice that,

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00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,880
"he seems to have forgotten
that he is king

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00:03:06,920 --> 00:03:09,640
except in his kingly
pursuit of stags

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00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,000
to which he is much dedicated."
Wow.

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He also had terrible table manners.

68
00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:16,640
His tongue was slightly too big
for his mouth,

69
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,760
so when he drank,
he used to dribble.

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00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,040
So, there's this version of
the king, a literal dribbling idiot.

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00:03:22,079 --> 00:03:24,760
(LAUGHS)
But then there's a reimagining

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00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,120
of the king, the scholar king.
And is there a particular way

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00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,760
that James I ruled
that we can see now?

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00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,760
Was he any different
to other monarchs?

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00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,520
James' court was more fluid,

76
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,480
a little bit more open.

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00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,680
Everything was a little bit
looser and newer.

78
00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,800
And we have these
fascinating letters,

79
00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,360
written by people who had been
prominent in Elizabeth's court,

80
00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,680
panicking that they no longer
understood the rules

81
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:51,960
and are utterly dismayed

82
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,320
at what they experiencing
is a kind of... snake pit.

83
00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,680
'So it was clear from
the beginning of James's reign

84
00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,920
that he was going to rewrite
the rulebook of British aristocracy.

85
00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,560
Fast forward 20 years
and you find Mary,

86
00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,320
ready to take advantage
of this new loose society

87
00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,279
for her own gains.'

88
00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,760
I'm here at the National
Portrait Gallery,

89
00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,080
which is my favourite
place in London.

90
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,040
It's very exciting today
because, apparently,

91
00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,400
there's a portrait of Mary Villiers
here in the archive

92
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,360
that they've agreed to, you know,
get out and dust off for us.

93
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,560
Follow moi.

94
00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,320
Obviously, she's absolutely stunning.

95
00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,159
Where does she normally live?
She's part of our reference

96
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,640
collection, so she's normally
kept in the archive basement.

97
00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,360
How many other images
have you ever seen of Mary Villiers?

98
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,240
Well, I guess the most beautiful one
is a full-length painted portrait,

99
00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:43,600
but we haven't seen that since
it was sold at Christie's in 1938.

100
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,280
No one knows where it is now.
So someone's just got that

101
00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,600
hanging in their house potentially?
I hope so, yes.

102
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,120
Do many people come asking
to see images of Mary Villiers?

103
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,120
No.
That's really sad!

104
00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,920
It is, given the significance
of her life and her achievements.

105
00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,360
'Eyes fresh from the real deal Mary,
it was time

106
00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,560
for a coffee with Julianne Moore to
find out how she brought her version

107
00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,760
of this devious woman
to life on screen.'

108
00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,040
Mary's character was
outrageous in a sense.

109
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,920
Here was this person who had
absolutely no agency of her own,

110
00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,200
no autonomy,
didn't own any property,

111
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,240
had such a strong sense
of self and a directness

112
00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:21,840
and a kind of ambition for herself
and particularly for her children.

113
00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,000
And when you think about
what she managed to achieve,

114
00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,360
she really left everyone
set up very, very well.

115
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,640
Can you describe this relationship
she has with her children?

116
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,840
In particular, of course,
there's George.Right.

117
00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,120
What was it about him that she saw
that she felt she could sort of...

118
00:05:36,159 --> 00:05:38,440
manipulate more
than her other children?

119
00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,640
In her educating them, she learned

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00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,120
that George was utterly charming
and a great dancer.

121
00:05:45,159 --> 00:05:47,640
So he wasn't great at academics,

122
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:49,680
but he was great
at entertaining people.

123
00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,640
She sees his charm and his beauty

124
00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,280
and how attractive he is
to other people.

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00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,560
Especially to someone
like King James I.Yeah.

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00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,800
Who was, kind of, her main prize.
Her idea is

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00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:05,320
to find a way to, you know...

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00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,560
after the death
of her first husband,

129
00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,200
who we portray as a brutal
and difficult man,

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00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,680
she's looking for a way

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00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,760
to educate our children
and keep herself alive.

132
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,080
And the only way
she's able to do that

133
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,520
is through her relationships
with powerful men.

134
00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,920
And she herself
therefore becomes powerful,

135
00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,640
but she's quite a complex character.
Right.

136
00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,640
How did you go about playing
someone like Mary Villiers?

137
00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,480
There was something
so outrageous about her,

138
00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,280
something so direct.
She seemed to have

139
00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,320
her own desire for power

140
00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,280
in a situation where
she might possibly have none.

141
00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,640
It felt really unusual and clever.

142
00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,920
I think she's written brilliantly.
DC Moore, Dave, our writer,

143
00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,080
I think, wrote
a really interesting, compelling,

144
00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,000
very funny, ambitious woman.

145
00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,920
What if I come later?
When I'm older?

146
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:55,680
You could.

147
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,040
But if you miss this chance,
you'll fail us all

148
00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,760
and live like your father,
smeared in the unwashable excrement

149
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,240
of eternal shame.

150
00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:07,080
Bon voyage. (THUMPS CARRIAGE)

151
00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,440
Do you have an opinion about
what was motivating Mary Villiers?

152
00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,640
I think ambition. (LAUGHS)
Right.

153
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,120
Just raw, kind of, like thirst?
Well,

154
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,440
I think... yeah, yeah,
but also survival.

155
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,640
Yeah.You know, when you have
no autonomy, you have no agency.

156
00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,000
All you have is really, you know,
through who you're married to

157
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,280
and realising that she has
to wield her own charm

158
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,600
or sexuality to gain that agency.

159
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,840
So it's either going to be
through someone that she marries

160
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,640
or someone that her sons
are aligned with.

161
00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,400
And so she did manage to do that
really pretty well.

162
00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,320
No, it's so impressive!
Yeah.As you say,

163
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,720
like, women obviously were
completely disenfranchised

164
00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,440
at that time.Mm-hm.
There were very few options.

165
00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,560
'It's pretty impressive stuff.
She's like a chess master manoeuvring

166
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,360
her men around like pawns.
I'm personally intrigued

167
00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,160
to find out what it's like to be
on the receiving end of her powers.'

168
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,560
What is George's relationship
with Mary like?

169
00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,960
And how does that kind of evolve?
It's a very complex relationship,

170
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,920
but he's the second son.
Mary sees the potential in him,

171
00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:04,880
chooses him out of all her children,

172
00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,400
to really put her faith in and back.

173
00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,360
He's just desperate
for her validation

174
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,120
and her love, and he'll do
anything to achieve that.

175
00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,520
She really manipulates him and
there's obvious, genuine love there,

176
00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,120
but it never really comes

177
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,679
unconditionally, which is a very
difficult thing for a child to have.

178
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,440
It's interesting as well
that your character is

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00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,320
kind of raised like a girl.

180
00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,960
It's things we've seen in other
series where they're playing

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00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:36,560
the piano or whatever,
or kind of using their wiles.

182
00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,120
It's very interesting.
I think it lends some

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00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,520
level of femininity
to this masculine character.

184
00:08:42,560 --> 00:08:44,840
And I think, you know,
we're obviously in this really

185
00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,040
interesting time nowadays
where the sort of borders

186
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,960
between masculinity and femininity
are blending a little bit.Yeah.

187
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:53,560
There is something within that
that modern audiences, I think,

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00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,240
will really appreciate and be able
to connect with. This is a woman

189
00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,800
operating in a male-dominated
world and...

190
00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,200
no family rose this quickly

191
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,200
in such a high trajectory
during this period of time.

192
00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,880
Her power and, you know,
Julianne's performance

193
00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,880
and portraying Mary,
it's hard not to admire.

194
00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:14,960
'It took a team
of creatives to excavate

195
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,840
this dark and twisted history
where it seems to have lain hidden

196
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,880
for the past few hundred years.

197
00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,920
That's until exec producer
Liza Marshall got involved.'

198
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,040
It's kind of your fault, all of this.

199
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,640
I suppose so, yes. I was reading
an article about five years ago

200
00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:31,920
and I saw a little piece
about James I being gay.

201
00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,680
I started doing loads of research
and tried to find

202
00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,040
a really interesting way
into his story.

203
00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,960
And then I came across
Ben Woolley's book, King's Assassin,

204
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,840
then took it to Dave, who then
wrote the brilliant scripts.

205
00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,760
Obviously you read Ben's book.
What happens next?

206
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:47,960
How do you approach
fictionalising this text?

207
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,080
The amount of information there is
about Mary for me is perfect.

208
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,600
There are glimmers
of this astonishingly

209
00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,520
powerful and influential person
working behind the scenes.

210
00:09:56,560 --> 00:09:58,880
And as a writer, that really
appeals to me because it means

211
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,720
I get to make a lot up,
but I also can sort of return

212
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,520
to the well of truth every now and
then for the general curve of it.

213
00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:07,080
When you're writing the scripts,
you're like, "How do I give

214
00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,880
this person an agency,
an intelligence

215
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,160
and a wit that she must have had?"

216
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,680
Sir Thomas Compton?
Afraid so. You?

217
00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,680
Your next wife.

218
00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,000
Sorry, love?
Don't be.

219
00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,680
She clearly had enormous ambition,
but that doesn't show up

220
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,680
in the historical record
basically until later in her life

221
00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,160
when people start to get annoyed
with her.

222
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,840
They're very puzzled how this woman
from a relatively lowly

223
00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,160
gentry background managed
to achieve this enormous influence

224
00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,560
in James's court.
There was a kind of scramble

225
00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,600
to understand who she was
and where she came from.

226
00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,720
I do not own my home.

227
00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,320
Or any asset. My children are unwed.

228
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,160
If the king's affection for you
curdles, we have nothing.

229
00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,680
What was it about Mary Villiers
in particular

230
00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,360
that you found so compelling?
What I always want

231
00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,800
to do is try and put women
at the centre of history,

232
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,360
because too often history
has been written by the men.

233
00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,520
In fact, entirely,
history's been written by men.

234
00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:01,480
She's a minor character in the book,

235
00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,240
but I just think the idea
that she essentially pimped out

236
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,360
her very hot second son
to seduce James I

237
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,840
was a brilliant
jumping-off point for a story.

238
00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,880
Her behaviour is complicated
in the sense that it's hard

239
00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,360
to know whether
she's this iconic woman

240
00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,280
managing to find her way to power

241
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,120
or whether she was just
using someone and is kind of...

242
00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:23,840
a bit of a dark lord.
How do you view her?

243
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,800
I think without doubt she was
the smartest person in the room,

244
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,840
cos I think to go from
the outer reaches of the gentry,

245
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,080
she was essentially a serving woman,
so not quite a servant,

246
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,120
but was working in service,
you know,

247
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,320
as a sort of gentlewoman to a lady.

248
00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,080
And to go from there
to become the closest woman

249
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,600
to James I is such
an extraordinary rise

250
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,120
at a time when women
had virtually no power.

251
00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,960
Do you see Mary as a feminist?

252
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,160
Depends what the definition
of feminism is.

253
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,280
I mean, if it means
supporting other women,

254
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,360
I think probably the answer is no,

255
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,640
because she's definitely prepared
to throw other women under the bus

256
00:11:57,680 --> 00:12:00,280
if... you know,
if it helps her rise to power.

257
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,360
She's not a sympathetic woman,
but she's doing whatever she can

258
00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:05,440
at that time to survive.

259
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,560
So, I think you like her, despite
the fact that maybe sometimes

260
00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,080
she does some dark things.
Yeah.She doesn't have to be

261
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,080
a nice person for us to be
compelled by her journey.

262
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:16,360
What do you think
the value is of portraying

263
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,400
these amazingly kind of
complex female characters?

264
00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,560
Cos that's how women are
in real life.

265
00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,120
Yeah, you got it! Correct.
I think these stories are

266
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,760
really important. I think
you need to refocus history

267
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,160
and remember all the powerful
women that were there.

268
00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,160
Even though it's a slightly
heightened world that we're in

269
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,480
and that Dave has created
with his scripts,

270
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,040
pretty much everything you see
in the drama is true.Yeah.

271
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,360
So she really did do
all of these crazy things.

272
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,760
I think it's pretty astonishing
that Mary Villiers

273
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,000
is someone that's kind of ostensibly
been written out of history,

274
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,760
but actually her actions and
her gumption and this kind of

275
00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,120
propulsion she had to better her life
and that of her families

276
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,560
has led to very meaningful

277
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,640
historical events,

278
00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:02,600
and yet it's someone
that we've overlooked.

279
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,840
Think of how many more women
there are in history

280
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,600
to explore that have had
this butterfly effect

281
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,640
on the way we are.

282
00:13:12,686 --> 00:13:15,200
'Despite the fact that
the Swinging Sixteens

283
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,760
were clearly a time
of loosening social order,

284
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,320
how Mary infiltrated
King James's court was

285
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,160
an outrageously bold achievement,
begging the question:

286
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,800
what was royal life like in the 17th
century and how might someone

287
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,080
lark their way into it, should
they have the taste for power?'

288
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,360
We see a lot of scenes taking place

289
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,000
in Mary & George happening
around the king's orbit.

290
00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,880
Can you tell us what
the king's court actually is?

291
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,040
So the king's court is not
one physical place.

292
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,840
It's the group of people
around the king

293
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,160
moving from maybe St James's Palace
to Hampton Court,

294
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,200
which had kitchens
that could feed a thousand people.

295
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,960
So this was an enormous
number of people,

296
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,400
and it would be dukes
and nobles and hangers-on,

297
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,480
and of course,
ravishingly beautiful young men.

298
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,720
'Well, that sounds amazing.

299
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,800
So as Mary clawed her way
up the ranks,

300
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,880
her style changed dramatically,

301
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,320
knowing, like many
a successful social climber,

302
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,360
the power of looking the part.'

303
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,960
How was it for people
in the 17th century?

304
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,240
What did your clothes mean
and could they be

305
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,240
wielded as a powerful tool?

306
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,960
Clothes have always been
a way of speaking,

307
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,880
whether they're saying,
"Oh, ignore me" or "Admire me" or...

308
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,400
"Endow my words
with greater seriousness

309
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:29,560
than you would were I not
wearing this enormous hat."

310
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,600
Like, it's always been
a way of talking

311
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,720
and Jacobean clothes spoke.

312
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,360
How did people in the 17th century
know what was trending?

313
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,280
There was an aisle
in St Paul's Cathedral

314
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,760
called Duke Humphrey's Walk.
It was said

315
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,400
that if you wanted the most precise

316
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,480
and new set of clothes,
you took your tailor by the wrist

317
00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,520
and you made him stand behind
a pillar and watch the gallants

318
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,720
walking up and down the aisle.
And by the end of half an hour,

319
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,120
he would have seen every fresh,
new fashion and within the week,

320
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,840
you could have your clothes
with the first printing.

321
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,600
Wow! I love that. God,
people don't really change, do they?

322
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,120
'Clearly, the power of a great outfit

323
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,680
has stayed true
for the past 400 years.

324
00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,080
But beyond the obvious,
what I'm really here for

325
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,400
is to find out what was hot
and what was not circa 1620.

326
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,560
Because fashion's cyclical, isn't it?

327
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,560
So it's only a matter of time
before this stuff comes back around.'

328
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,240
I'd wear that now with jeans.

329
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,880
This is my dream wardrobe, legit.

330
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,200
If I could open my wardrobe
and it was just like, ye-olde-y...

331
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,800
white frilly things...
I'd be thrilled.

332
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,360
I feel like these fabrics
are the more drab end

333
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,920
cos they're for the crowd
rather than the main characters.

334
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,240
Peasants.

335
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,320
It's a sexy hat.

336
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,560
Incredible.

337
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,720
Isn't that nice?

338
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,000
Sup. Too much?

339
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,760
'And enough messing around.

340
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:00,400
It was time to remember
the reason I was here.'

341
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,840
So the lady who heads up
this entire department,

342
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,400
who's like kind of
the imagination behind

343
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,000
all of these beautiful costumes
is a woman called Annie.

344
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,600
And I'm going to go and find her
and ask her to tell me

345
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,120
what the hell is going on here.

346
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,200
So much effeminate
bow scenarios going on.

347
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,920
It's nonsense. I love it.
(CHUCKLES)

348
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,400
That's like when I try and,
like, scuff up my Converse

349
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,360
so they look a bit cooler.
Well, send them over to us. (LAUGHS)

350
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,280
Bum rolls.
Bum rolls. I love them.

351
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,360
Beautiful. So nice.

352
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,840
'Well, we obviously got on
like a house on fire.'

353
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,560
Shall we talk about
Jacobean fashion in general?

354
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,120
Like, how did you start
to put all of this together?

355
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,760
The first port of call
is a painting.

356
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,680
At this period, court paintings
were very heavily stylised.

357
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,120
So what you get is a very
abstract line of beauty,

358
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,040
which is actually very
useful for design,

359
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,800
because designing costume,
you're always trying to find

360
00:16:55,839 --> 00:16:58,720
the keys into the period.
I think for me,

361
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,319
certainly it's very clear
what the Jacobean shapes are

362
00:17:02,359 --> 00:17:04,839
and they're very exciting
cos they haven't really been done.

363
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,960
There's a lot of Elizabethan
and Tudor costume

364
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,720
and then later Stuart stuff around
but not this period.

365
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,760
When it came to approaching
Mary's costume, where did you start?

366
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,120
I met Julianne and basically
fitted shapes on her to see

367
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,640
what worked on her figure

368
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:24,200
and what worked with the timeline.

369
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,760
This is Mary. All of this
is her costume.Right.

370
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:32,200
This is her kind of most
iconic sort of look.Mm-hm.

371
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,520
I think this shape and it...

372
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,360
it's getting, I think, quite modern.

373
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,360
It's almost new-lookish. It's...
Totally.

374
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,520
It has a contemporary simplicity,

375
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,720
but that seemed quite important
for her as a character

376
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,840
that, you know, we understood her
as a woman with power

377
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,120
and not cluttered with all

378
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,720
the artifice of courts.

379
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,240
This, for example,
is when she becomes Countess.

380
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,360
Wow.It really is
her Cinderella moment.

381
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,720
Yeah! Beautiful.
So we went a bit flash.

382
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,760
This is a more quiet version,
but this is her portrait,

383
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,880
just before the height
of her wealth and powers.

384
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,440
In Mary's story,
the start of her story,

385
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,680
she's fallen on hard times.
She's got a grotty hem.

386
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,520
She's got a very grotty hem.
She had had money.

387
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,760
Yeah.
And it all went terribly wrong.

388
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,240
She ended up dragging herself
through the mud,

389
00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,720
metaphorically and physically.
Mm-hmm.

390
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,640
I wanted to describe
that whole world as...

391
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,240
mouldy cheese, stale bread,
parched bones, congealed blood.

392
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,480
Some of my favourite patterns
in that list.(LAUGHS)

393
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,120
As she moves through her story,

394
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,080
she becomes more and more

395
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:39,720
eloquent in her clothing choices

396
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:41,920
and...

397
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,520
wears a ridiculously
wrong dress at court,

398
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,840
when she finally gets into court,
which is purple,

399
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,880
which is a complete taboo thing
to wear.Mm, that's a no no.

400
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,960
And she wears it
in the style of Elizabeth I.

401
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,600
But she's doing that to get noticed?
Oh, yeah.Yeah.

402
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,280
Everything she does is...
she's calculating.

403
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,280
See, this is the power of clothes,
isn't it?Absolutely.

404
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,800
What was the most surprising thing
to learn about Jacobean dress?

405
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,080
Other than the arm cages,
is there anything else?

406
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:12,800
The falling ruff,
this sort of strange transition

407
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,800
from wide sticky-outey ruff

408
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,440
to a soft falling ruff
that then developed

409
00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,080
into these huge lacy collars.

410
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:24,080
Oh, that's where that comes from?
Yeah, because it all started off

411
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:26,360
with a little frill at the neck
in Tudor times.

412
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,560
And as people got more extravagant,

413
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,800
the frill got bigger
and bigger and bigger,

414
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,840
and then it started flopping
down again. (LAUGHS)Yeah.

415
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,240
'I was seeing some real potential
in this iconic accessory,

416
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,520
and luckily enough,
just a few desks down,

417
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:41,920
I found Marija, resident ruff maker

418
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,360
and authority on
all things frilly collar.'

419
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,320
What typifies a Jacobean ruff?

420
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:50,040
Everything you see before was solid,
very, very plain shape,

421
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,200
maybe with a little trim around.
Yeah.

422
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,280
And then from 1570s,
they started using lace.

423
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,760
Cool that men and women both had
them on, so it wasn't just the girls.

424
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,240
The guys were really giving it
their best shot as well.

425
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,360
Like Annie said,
it was a transition time

426
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,560
from this masculine Tudor stuff
into more baroque, feminine.

427
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,920
Everything just became
less rigid and square.

428
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,120
But also that might be more a king

429
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,120
that's more open-minded
about these things.

430
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,280
Like, if Henry VIII is
more kind of like, "I'm a dude."

431
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,480
Yeah.
"And I'm big," but old mate James

432
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,440
is more like, "Meh. Let's enjoy
some snacks and then we'll shag."

433
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,520
James I seems more masculine
in a way, in the fact that he's able

434
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,000
to dress more effeminately.
He's probably more confident.

435
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,200
This is George's collar.

436
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:38,560
That's actually back to front.
Oh, my God.

437
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,240
(LAUGHS)
Mortified!

438
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,240
This is upside down.
Oh, my God. Come on then.

439
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,000
'Next, Annie was taking me
to meet David,

440
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,440
the principal costume cutter.'
Very noble.

441
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,440
'I couldn't help but get a little bit
distracted along the way.'

442
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,680
It feels right. That's amazing.

443
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,920
Ah, we found him.

444
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,440
How is Jacobean men's fashion
different to the women's?

445
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,600
In terms of, like,
societal position,

446
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,200
they were running the show,
so they didn't need the dresses,

447
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,120
the cumbersome dresses.
Their costume and their fashion was

448
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,560
a bit more wearable.
Still, this silhouette was...

449
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,200
extreme compared
to what it is today.

450
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,280
This is for George.
This is our main boy.

451
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,720
So Nick is wearing this.
The main body or the main jacket

452
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,040
was the doublet, and that would
be worn as a modern-day jacket.

453
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,680
Yeah.Clothing was expensive,
so normal men of the time

454
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,240
could only afford, say,
one doublet or maybe two doublets.

455
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,320
But then they would say,
"Let's order six more sleeves."

456
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:35,560
Oh, great!
So it's like a modular outfit.

457
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,320
A bit like a kind of modern
capsule wardrobe.Yeah!

458
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:41,200
The line of it is sort of
like a modern leather jacket.

459
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,440
Yeah.Like a biker jacket.
So we've softened the silhouette

460
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,280
a little bit and looked to try
and bring in modern interpretations.

461
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,280
That's also the thing
which we need to remember.

462
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,080
We've been interpreting a Jacobean
silhouette for a modern body.

463
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:58,120
All of our body shapes as men
and are completely different

464
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,080
to what they were in Jacobean times.
In what way?

465
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:04,080
More athletic, more broad shoulders,

466
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:06,080
taller as well, so...

467
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:08,400
it's been quite interesting

468
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,120
trying to explain the silhouette
to our actors as well,

469
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,400
because the shape is not something
that we see in modern day.

470
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,720
I googled George Villiers

471
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,040
just to see what he looked like
and found a portrait where

472
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,400
he looks like he's wearing,
like, a black leather jacket,

473
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,360
barnacled in pearls?
Yeah. They loved pearls.

474
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,080
The pearl was a symbol
of their might at sea.

475
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:30,640
And they're beautiful
and also they're light-emitting

476
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,240
and it was Queen Anne's favourite
jewel as well, apparently.

477
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,080
I like the idea that George might
have been conquered by James.

478
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:39,400
That's why he's got so many

479
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,600
pearls on his costume.
(LAUGHS) Yes.

480
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,720
It's also got a bit of
a Blackadder vibe to it.

481
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:45,760
(LAUGHTER)

482
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,480
Once seen, never unseen.
Exactly.

483
00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:50,560
'Leaving the makers in peace
to work their craft,

484
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,520
it was finally time
for what I'd really come here for.'

485
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,760
We're looking for a dress to try on.

486
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,760
Can I nick that?

487
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,400
Do I need underpants?

488
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,560
I'm going to get changed
and when I come back,

489
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,760
I'm going to be
a dazzling Jacobean lady.

490
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,240
Dazzled. Come on in.

491
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,200
This chemise is soft as butter.

492
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:14,240
I'm just into how it looks now.

493
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,640
It's so comfy, the bum roll.
I feel like you could sit anywhere

494
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,400
and it would be cosy.
Junk in the trunk there.

495
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,320
Oof. Lovely!

496
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:27,440
It just feels like you're being held.

497
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,640
So it's not uncomfortable,
it's actually quite reassuring.

498
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,120
It's like being swaddled as a baby.

499
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,920
# I'm just a lonely
Jacobean woman... #

500
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,120
(BLOWS KISS)

501
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:52,120
'Another day,
another glorious trailer.'

502
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,920
WOMAN: (KNOCKING) Alexa, hair and
makeup are ready for you!Thank you.

503
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,320
'Time to get to work.'

504
00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:01,400
For the period that we're doing,
the Jacobean,

505
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,960
ladies wouldn't wear makeup.
Really?!

506
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,640
It was more prostitutes
that would use it.(GASPS)

507
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,760
Oh, my God.
So our aim is to make you look...

508
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,160
flawless, cos that was the fashion.

509
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,080
Very pale. If you were tanned,

510
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,960
you were perceived as working
outdoors or a labourer,

511
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,320
whereas pale skin indicates
that you live indoors.

512
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:24,640
You have servants,
people to do everything for you.

513
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,800
And how pale would they go? Is it...
As pale as they could be.

514
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,240
Similar to Elizabethan times?
Like those pictures

515
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,440
of Queen Elizabeth we see
with, like, white...

516
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,080
She used a white lead on her skin,

517
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:37,400
but unfortunately that ate the skin

518
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,440
and it poisoned the wearer.

519
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,720
So they had other things
like ground up rice

520
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,800
or starch powder
that they would mix to make base.

521
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,920
There was no commercial
products as such.

522
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,120
Behind me, I noticed a photograph
of a guy with a silver nose on.

523
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,720
That is the advanced stage
of syphilis,

524
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,240
and it would eat all
the soft bones of your face.

525
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,840
So your nose would be eaten away.

526
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,160
You would go mad because it ate
the brain, so the pewter nose

527
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,240
is because he's lost his nose.
Wow.

528
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,760
Paul, I love the makeup so much.

529
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,000
Can we add a wig so I can have
the full experience?Yes, indeed.

530
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,240
So the fashion was to have

531
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,320
some height at the front,
keep it flat on top,

532
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:23,440
and then a bun at the back,
and that was almost universal.

533
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,520
The influence came
from the French court.

534
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,560
So Britain followed French fashions.
Classic.

535
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,360
So we've prepped one here for you.
Great.

536
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,400
Which we'll put on now to complete
the effect.I'm so jazzed.

537
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,480
In our story,
we have Queen Anne of Denmark.

538
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,960
She was the wife of King James I.

539
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,920
They didn't live together
or anything,

540
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,720
they had a very distant
relationship, but her hairdos

541
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,280
which we have here,
were very, very high,

542
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,560
which we achieve with a cage inside.

543
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,400
Amazing.
That denoted a status.

544
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,560
So other courtiers would never
have hair as big as she did.

545
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,880
They weren't allowed or it just...
It just wasn't done.Right.

546
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,800
And later on in this century,

547
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,120
it became a real thing in society

548
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,360
that the bigger your hair,
the more important you were.

549
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,200
"The higher the hair, the closer
to God," as Dolly Parton once said.

550
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,160
That's right. Just put your fingers
underneath, if you could.

551
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,480
That's it and get it on there
at the front.(GASPS)

552
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,600
Oh, my God, and I'm blonde!
(LAUGHS)

553
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,840
A lot of dreams coming true
today for me.

554
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,880
(LAUGHTER)
(GASPS)

555
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,760
Don't think of Mickey Mouse.
Oh, I love it!

556
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,200
Wow!

557
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,160
I think I was born in the wrong time.
This might be my look.

558
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,406
'To set, for my long-awaited
period drama debut.

559
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,200
Turns out I wasn't actually needed,
and Queen Anne wanted her hair back,

560
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,560
so here we are.

561
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,960
Deflated hair aside,
I was thrilled to find myself

562
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,440
in the grounds of Crowhurst Place,
a sprawling English residence

563
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,560
dating back to the 15th century.'

564
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,840
I actually am genuinely
interested in interiors.

565
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,000
And this is like the dream house

566
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,080
from the outside,
so I'm kind of gagging to get in.

567
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:58,560
If the clothes are anything to go by,
maybe they quite like chintzy fabrics

568
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,400
and, like, opulent, decadent things.
But actually, do you know what?

569
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,720
It's looking kind of
medieval in there.

570
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,880
'The house is one of many
featured in Mary & George,

571
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,320
where a sizeable art department
have been breathing life

572
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:16,040
back into banqueting halls
and bed chambers...'

573
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,760
This is very beautiful.
That's amazing, the carving.

574
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,080
Oh, my God. Oh, yeah.

575
00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:24,120
'..allowing us a glimpse
of Jacobean times

576
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,280
in their full post-medieval glory.'

577
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,160
Wow. You've got a fireplace.

578
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,400
I'll take it.
This is where I want to stay now.

579
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,320
Just the height is insane, isn't it?
Yeah.

580
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:38,960
This to us is Mary's London
residence. She's made it big time.

581
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,360
Is it a typical Jacobean house?

582
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,520
Short answer is no.
It's not a Jacobean house,

583
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,120
in that it wasn't built
in Jacobean period.

584
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,720
But that was quite
a short period of time.Yes.

585
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,160
Most people would have been
living in houses that were...

586
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,360
Built much earlier? Like, now
my house is from, like, the 1800s,

587
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,800
but obviously that's not
how I've kept it, sadly.

588
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,640
But for someone that's a bit of
a novice when it comes to sort of...

589
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,560
Jacobean interiors, what might
a signifier be of that era?

590
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,400
So Jacobean interior,
they were really...

591
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,760
into things looking flashy,

592
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,880
It was...
sort of renaissance interiors.

593
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,600
A lot of wood carving.

594
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,040
A lot of specialist detail.

595
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,120
Let's just say that I'm...

596
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,360
a very wealthy Jacobean person

597
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,560
and I've moved into these
beautiful dwellings.

598
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,360
What kind of thing could I look at
in terms of decoration?

599
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,680
Your friends are going
to think you're quite flash

600
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,680
because you've got a lot of glass,
which was very expensive.

601
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,000
On occasion, people would take
them out if they were going away

602
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,240
on a long trip because
they were like a hot commodity.

603
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,600
'It takes a leap of imagination
to picture a scenario

604
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,760
where one might take
a window on holiday.

605
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,840
Series director Oliver Hermanus
conjured up an entire world

606
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:49,880
within these harsh limitations.'

607
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,400
A lot of our locations I'd walk into
and I couldn't stand up straight.

608
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,480
Life was pretty grim
if you were poor.

609
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,320
We dirtied everyone's teeth and
we dirtied everyone's fingernails,

610
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,920
including Mary's. I mean,
I think that's an interesting thing,

611
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,600
is that there was an extreme.
Mmm.

612
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,960
The vast majority of people were
not having a great time.Yeah.

613
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,040
So you understand
the desire to climb.

614
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,400
Once our story enters
the court of the king

615
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,800
and the main characters
are around the king a lot,

616
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,920
the king's life is full
of hunting and banquets

617
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,360
and he turned his world
into this opulence.

618
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,640
It was very unbridled,
which I kind of love.

619
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,800
When it came to entertainment,

620
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,000
what would they have
for their guests?

621
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,200
A lot of food and
the food is interesting.

622
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,720
Our food economist really
took this very seriously.

623
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:36,800
Right.And sometimes I would
say that on the set...

624
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,240
We have a scene where the king
visits Mary's house

625
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,040
for the first time, and there's
this U-shaped table full of food.

626
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,960
Everything that we made,
we really made. So this was all done

627
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,600
in the sort of traditional way
they would've done it.

628
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,120
They could have anything from,
like, 5 to 12 courses.

629
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,880
Lamb, boar, venison,

630
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,760
even things like peacocks.

631
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,120
They would eat peacocks?
They would eat peacocks.

632
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,440
It would just be such
an extravagant affair.

633
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,720
You'd have like the head table
and then you'd have

634
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,280
separate tables for perhaps
people that were less noble

635
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,080
or close to the family
that were hosting.

636
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,080
Candelabras everywhere.
Mmm.

637
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,000
You'd even have musicians coming in,

638
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,480
theatrical things going on.
Brilliant.

639
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,600
So it was a vibrant
and exciting thing.

640
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,760
And as the drinks flow,

641
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,840
the party just... it just continues.

642
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,160
Wine was very French. There was
also the sort of tension of wine

643
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,600
because they didn't really
like the French.I like the idea

644
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,960
of them going, "Sorry,
are you drinking... Is that a wine?

645
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,400
Get it out of here.
He's not gonna like this."(LAUGHS)

646
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,320
James I spent so much time
in France. He was kind of French,

647
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,800
and so he loved his wine.
So we play into that with the king,

648
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,160
and then there are the live
musicians who are in the background,

649
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,480
and I can't imagine how hard
that must have been for them,

650
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,120
because there's no sort of,
like, volume button on...

651
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,200
(LAUGHTER)

652
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,280
..on the playlist.Right.
So it must've just been very noisy.

653
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,480
This is the viola da gamba.
"Da gamba" means legs,

654
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,600
so the way you play it,
it goes between the legs.

655
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,440
That is how you hold the bow.
Oh!So your finger is always

656
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,600
touching the string.
Love. If you don't mind,

657
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,680
I'm just going to...
(PLAYS DULL NOTE)

658
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,520
..entertain myself for a while.
(CONTINUES PLAYING)

659
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,160
'Having tried my hardest,
I seem to have failed to land myself

660
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,880
a gig in Mary & George.
So it was back to the day job.

661
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,160
Beyond the backstabbing
and banqueting, the other

662
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,960
ever-present theme in this odyssey
through Jacobean England

663
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,120
is... sex.

664
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,360
What I've gleaned thus far is that
the power of sexual desire has played

665
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,000
a huge but underreported part
in history.

666
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,320
Luckily for us, contemporary sleuths
like sex historian Kate Lister

667
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,360
are throwing back the sheets
to reveal a much fuller picture

668
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,720
of what was really going on
in the bed chambers of those

669
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,800
who shaped our modern world.'

670
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,000
Why is it important to look at sex

671
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,280
from the perspective
of a historian in particular?

672
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,640
Well, how important is sex today?

673
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,320
Right? It's something that we still
obsess about and we talk about

674
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,000
and we endlessly pore over
and people research.

675
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,880
Everyone's got opinions.
Well, it's been like that

676
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,320
as long as people have
been having sex.Yeah.

677
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,760
So it's important that we know,
first of all, what...

678
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,040
or as close as we can get to know
what was going on

679
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,040
in people's bedrooms of yore,
but how we've ended up

680
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,360
where we are right now.
Yeah.That's important.

681
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,600
How have the attitudes
that we have today...

682
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,480
have they always been the same
or have they changed? Like, what...

683
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:15,120
How were gay, bisexual people
viewed in the past?Yeah.

684
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,040
And that's really, really important.

685
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,280
I think understanding sex,

686
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,560
that's how you understand humans
and human history.Absolutely.

687
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,520
Can you paint a sort of
broad picture for us

688
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,200
about what sex lives were like
in the Jacobean era?

689
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,360
It depends who you were.
Money always talks.

690
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,960
So the more money, the more power,
the more influence you have,

691
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,160
the more sex or...
whatever it is that you want to do,

692
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,360
you can do that, but there were
very strict punishments in place

693
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,800
for regular, everyday people.
The church said things like,

694
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,160
"You can't have sex
on Advent or Lent

695
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,160
or Wednesdays or Sundays

696
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,800
or feast days or before menstruation

697
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,040
or after menstruation
or after you've been pregnant."

698
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,480
Like, when you actually add it
all up, you could have sex

699
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,520
like two days a year.
Only in ovulation.

700
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,280
Yep. (CHUCKLES)They're like,
"It is for getting pregnant."

701
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:03,520
That's what they taught.
"It's for getting pregnant

702
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,320
and have as little fun as possible
while you're actually having it."

703
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,000
That was the church's take. Now,
that doesn't mean anyone listened.

704
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,360
'In Mary & George,
rule-breaking is turned

705
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,040
into something of an art form,
presenting a new vision

706
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,680
of Jacobean sexuality captured from
a distinctly modern perspective.'

707
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,800
How did you design
the sexual cadence of the show?

708
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,760
The characters are very
sexually liberated.

709
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,320
It's the characters do not
hesitate in having sex.

710
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,280
With George and the king, you know,

711
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,760
when we meet the king,
all we know is that he likes orgies

712
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,400
and there are lots of orgies
that we shot.

713
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,720
And that was a journey for me
in terms of...

714
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,080
inventing many different
sexual positions.

715
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,520
(LAUGHTER)
You were like, "We've done that one."

716
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,560
Yeah."Sorry."
You could do bingo with it, maybe.

717
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,280
Our intimacy coordinator
literally had to come

718
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,640
with, like, loads of diagrams and...
(LAUGHS)

719
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,960
"We've done that one."
I love the idea of everyone

720
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:54,640
looking at that being like,
"Wow, OK."

721
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,680
In fact, the very last day
that Tony and Nick worked together,

722
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,560
it was a scene with me and it was
them having sex under a tree.

723
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,199
And because we'd been shooting
for six months, we were literally

724
00:34:03,239 --> 00:34:06,159
all stood there going,
"What haven't we done?"(LAUGHS)

725
00:34:06,199 --> 00:34:08,199
We've been very excited
about the fact

726
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,360
that we've...
hopefully will show the world

727
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,960
the many different ways
two men can have sex.

728
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,679
So in the show, there's
a lot of bonking going on.

729
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,800
There's orgies,
there's everyone sort of at it.

730
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,239
Everyone's got side lovers.
How accurate is that

731
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,040
in terms of history?
(LAUGHS) We're not the first ones

732
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,719
to have invented sex. There would
certainly have been mass orgies

733
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,239
occurring somewhere and
people having all kinds of sex.

734
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:31,320
We just don't have
the documents to prove it.

735
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,880
It's very rare to find, like, an
'I went to an orgy' ticket slip...

736
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,239
(LAUGHS)
..in the 17th century, that we go,

737
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,199
"That definitely happened."Yeah.
It's really easy to look at the past

738
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,600
and think that everyone was
really repressed and prudish,

739
00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:46,440
but these people would have
been a lot more familiar with sex

740
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,880
and naked bodies
than we are today in ways

741
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,880
that we can't really conceive of.
Like space, for example.

742
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,240
Families would probably be
growing up in one room.

743
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,360
So you would probably

744
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,480
have been aware of
your parents having sex

745
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,280
cos they'd have been
in the bed next to you.

746
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,560
You would certainly have
seen everybody naked.

747
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,960
And if you went into work,
like, if you were a servant

748
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,880
or something like that,
you'd be sharing rooms

749
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,040
and sharing close quarters, so you
would see people getting undressed.

750
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,680
You would probably see people
having sex in ways

751
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:14,880
that today would be
a little bit strange to us.

752
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,320
Yeah, I guess just by proximity.
By proximity, right.

753
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,200
'Sadly, no tickets
to the orgy were available.

754
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:23,800
So I've gone with
the next best option:

755
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,200
a trip to a very glamorous studio
where King James and George

756
00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,600
took a minute out of their busy
lovemaking schedule

757
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:32,400
to reflect upon their characters'
expansive sex lives

758
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,160
where spouses and lovers were
all carefully attended to.'

759
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,280
What are the main things I can
learn about sex and relationships

760
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,680
in the Jacobean era?
The more the merrier.

761
00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:43,680
(LAUGHS)
I'd say that's...

762
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:46,320
It's OK to have a threesome.
Don't limit it at three.

763
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,400
Don't limit yourself to...
Bump those numbers up.

764
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,240
Those are rookie numbers.
Monogamy...At least 12, 13 people.

765
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,880
You want to get lost in limbs.
It's a snake pit.

766
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,960
It's a snake pit.James,
at the time when I first read it,

767
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,680
he was obviously a man
who was fluid.

768
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:02,680
You know, I had a wife,
Anne of Denmark.

769
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:05,920
He had nine children.
Three only made it to adulthood.

770
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,320
Obviously there was a marriage
of convenience there,

771
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,040
but his sensuality, his sexuality,

772
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,200
he liked men and
he fell in love with,

773
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:15,560
you know, not a handful,
but he had his favourites.

774
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,280
At the time,
there was no terminology.

775
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,640
People just did what they did.

776
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,760
And I guess because he was the king,

777
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,280
he was not a fan of politics.
He was not a fan of going to court.

778
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,240
He was a fan of hunting,
he was a fan of the arts,

779
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:32,440
of writing, and he was a fan
of making love, I guess.

780
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,320
He was a very modern man.
There you go.

781
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,760
Fuck me alive again.

782
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,360
In the 1600s, was there
the identity politics around

783
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:45,680
that exist today?
They didn't have language.

784
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:48,640
Like today, you'd say,
"I am gay" or you'd come out.

785
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:50,720
Gay today is an identity,
your sexuality.

786
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,120
You'd say, "I'm straight, I'm gay,
I'm bi," whatever it is.

787
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,200
When we talk about this period
in the 17th century,

788
00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:56,960
it's not so much part
of your identity

789
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,960
so much as something that you do.

790
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,080
But that doesn't mean
that there wasn't

791
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,120
what we now call the gay community.
Mm-hm.

792
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,680
We know that there was
language being used.

793
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:09,080
Catamite, sodomite, mollies
was a very affectionate term,

794
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,600
used within the queer community.
Lesbians were known as

795
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,040
tribades and fricatrices.
So there were...

796
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,240
Come again?
Fricatrice. (CHUCKLES)

797
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,720
Fricatrices...
Yeah, friction.Oh, great.

798
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,040
So we know that this language
existed. We know that these

799
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,920
communities existed,
but it wasn't...

800
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,000
as open as it is today.
But people knew.

801
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,200
Like, there were satirical
pamphlets about James

802
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:34,560
and his many lovers
written all the time.

803
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,880
Like, courtiers talk about it,
joke about it.

804
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,080
There was an ongoing joke at
the time of Elizabeth was the king,

805
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,600
and now James is the queen.
Oh!(FEIGNS LAUGHTER)

806
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,680
And then they all fall about
laughing. So it was...

807
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:46,760
I fell for it too.
Right? It's very clever.

808
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,360
(LAUGHTER)

809
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,600
Were you surprised to learn that
about Jacobean times?

810
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,640
That they were so fluid?The sort
of fluidity? Yeah, I think so,

811
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,760
because I think we obviously,
you know, as modern people

812
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,440
in the 21st century,
we consider ourselves,

813
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,720
you know, at the forefront of being

814
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,280
liberal and conceptual
about all these things.Yes.

815
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,680
For George, it's like his sex

816
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:10,320
and his ability to be so fluid,

817
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,320
you know, it's his power
in a lot of ways,

818
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,160
his ability to kind of
slip into... you know,

819
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,080
different modes to accomplish
what he needed to accomplish.

820
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,600
What do you think
his motivation is?

821
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,920
He's driven by this matriarch
in Mary, you know?

822
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,840
He is... Everything he does
is to kind of achieve

823
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,240
some semblance of validation
in Mary's eyes.

824
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,320
But then I think as he goes along,

825
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,000
he realises that he can
attain power by himself,

826
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,480
and then it just becomes this
voracious appetite for the wealth

827
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,480
and, you know, climbing
within this court, you know?

828
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,320
The higher you climb,
the more that is possible and...

829
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,880
The more you get laid.
A bonk fest.It's a bonk fest.

830
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,960
What's your take
on their relationship?

831
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,400
In the beginning, when I read
the show and I got to understand

832
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,440
the nature of King James,

833
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,360
he sort of... you meet him
as a sort of buffoon in a sense.

834
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,280
The first time you meet him,
he's naked

835
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,120
and walking around with an erection
in episode one.

836
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,560
But by episode three and four,
he deepens as a character

837
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,920
and you realise that
he's a very complicated man

838
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,200
and he does very much love George.

839
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:15,560
And then from George's side,
you sense

840
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,400
that he too is in love
with James in his way.Mm.

841
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,480
And I remember
when we researched the show,

842
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,280
we were made aware of these letters
that James had sent George over time

843
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,160
and the nature of those letters
and the language of those letters,

844
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,440
are very clearly
a love relationship.

845
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,320
I think the letters I wrote,
he was deeply in love.

846
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,440
He was in love
with a few men in his time.

847
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,440
There was a gentleman in Scotland
called Lord Lennox as well.

848
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,760
I think his romantic exploits

849
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,440
and sensual sexual exploits
were an escapism, most definitely.

850
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,960
And plus, the fact that,
you know, his father was blown up,

851
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,720
Lord Darnley.
His mother, Mary, Queen of Scots

852
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,240
was decapitated by Queen Elizabeth,

853
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,720
and he was raised by a bunch of men,
a bunch of regents.

854
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,320
They all wanted a piece of him,
you know? So it is very much...

855
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,840
Just got to fuck the pain away.
Yeah.(LAUGHS)

856
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,560
Heavy sleeps the head
that wears the crown, as it were.

857
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,360
If I am Prometheus,

858
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,520
you are the eagle plucking
at my liver.(MEN LAUGH)

859
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,560
King James I obviously partial
to a male love affair.

860
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,320
How did that influence his decisions
in terms of lawmaking?

861
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,480
He actually strengthens
the sodomy laws.

862
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:24,560
He argues that there shouldn't be
any room for interpretation

863
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,600
in these cases, that judges should
just execute people straight away.

864
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,560
But I thought it was like
an open secret to those around him

865
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,160
that he was enjoying this.
He doesn't seem to have been

866
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,120
particularly ashamed of this
at all, and yet,

867
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,800
when it comes to other people,
he was vicious.

868
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,360
The fact that he was
falling in love with men,

869
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,960
I thought of that era
as being kind of more open.

870
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,560
So we know that by the 18th century,

871
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,560
there is a molly house culture
in London.

872
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,480
It probably existed
much before that.

873
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,440
We just don't have the records.
A molly house wasn't quite

874
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,920
a brothel, it wasn't quite a tavern.

875
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:58,880
It was somewhere between them.

876
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,000
This is an underground, secretive,
marginalised group of people

877
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,200
who will pay a huge price
if they get caught.

878
00:41:04,240 --> 00:41:07,160
And was it only for queer people?
It was for queer men.

879
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:08,840
A woman wasn't allowed
to go into a bar.

880
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,400
We know that women were having sex
with women, definitely.

881
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,000
I'd have put money on it, that there
were lesbian gatherings of women,

882
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,880
but it would've been behind closed
doors and you'd have to know someone

883
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,400
who knew someone who knew somebody.
They were just better at hiding it.

884
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,800
'Reflective of this feminine cunning
in Mary & George,

885
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,120
Mary is having her own
illicit love affair

886
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,080
across forbidden lines
of gender and class.'

887
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,560
Mary, particularly, is probably
the more exciting journey, I guess,

888
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,960
as a character, because you make
an assumption, I think, about

889
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,760
her sexuality at the start of
the show and she kind of defies that

890
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:44,600
and her major love relationship
in the show is with another woman.

891
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,280
The sexual nature of it
is incredibly liberated

892
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,120
and exploratory and unapologetic.

893
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,280
Mary's conducting a little
business in a brothel,

894
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,200
and she meets this
enchanting young woman

895
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:57,320
played by Niamh Algar named Sandie.

896
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:00,080
She challenges her and interests her

897
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,360
and they end up
in a relationship together.

898
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,480
And it's interesting
that there's this tenderness

899
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:08,040
with a female relationship
that she maybe doesn't experience

900
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,000
through her male relationships.
Right. I think she feels

901
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,040
a sense of equality with her.

902
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,800
And in a society and in a world
where she feels so,

903
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,760
so dominated by the male figures
in her life and so powerless,

904
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,560
here she meets someone
who recognises her

905
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,160
for what she is and is able
to kind of meet her head on.

906
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,760
Were you surprised when
you first got this script

907
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,320
to see sexuality in the Jacobean era
being represented in this way?

908
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,440
No.
(LAUGHTER)

909
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,360
You're like, "Humans are humans."
I think people have sex.

910
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,520
Yeah. I mean, I think
that's the thing, right?

911
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,440
None of us would be here
if they didn't. (LAUGHS)

912
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,680
Why then has history...

913
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:50,320
or mainstream history
kind of focussed on this

914
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,600
sort of straight perspective, then?

915
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:54,760
Why has so much of it
been eradicated?

916
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,560
History tends to be told from the
perspective of people who write it,

917
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,320
and throughout most of our history,
the people repeating it

918
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,760
have been within
a very heteronormative society.

919
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,000
Even if they thought they were gay,

920
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,000
they'd probably struggle
to actually say that.

921
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,160
"You're going to out the king?
Are you?"Yeah.

922
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,600
You know? So it's not that...
I mean, it has been straight-washed.

923
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,400
It has. And we're now
in the process of reclaiming it.

924
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,240
But I think maybe we're just
ready to have those conversations

925
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,400
in a way that that
we haven't been before.Mm.

926
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,520
How important do you think it is
to have this incredible

927
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,960
historical queer story living today?

928
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,120
For me personally, of course,
it's really important

929
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,120
to make inclusive stories
where we look back in history

930
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,760
and tell stories in a way
that includes people

931
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,600
and highlights the fact
that our assumptions

932
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,240
about the past aren't as clear
as we thought they were.

933
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,560
So that's really fun.
But I also think it's important

934
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,280
to not drive that home too much
because I think the real sign

935
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,840
of inclusion is to not have
to label it all the time.

936
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,840
Right.
And Mary & George does not

937
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,640
spend its time trying to educate
the audience about queerness

938
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:59,240
or trying to advertise it
as a primary.

939
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,520
I think what's really great
about it is that we make it

940
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,760
as part of it and it's not
the reason for the show

941
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,120
and the nature of the characters
in the show

942
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,360
are allowed to be who they are
and we don't vilify them for it

943
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,120
and we don't sort of highlight them
in a way that makes it seem

944
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,360
like we're trying
to be preachy about it.

945
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,040
What do you think is so important
about bringing stories like this

946
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:20,480
to the screen?I think
they're entertaining, for one thing.

947
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,280
I think that people really,
really love historical fiction.

948
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,320
It's a lot of fun.
It's a kind of way to have one foot

949
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,680
in actual history
and another foot in fantasy.

950
00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:32,520
You know, it is storytelling
and it's beautiful.

951
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,720
It's sumptuously done.
The production design is gorgeous.

952
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,400
The costumes are wonderful.
Hair and makeup,

953
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:42,160
all of the terrific actors.
I think it's a lot of fun to watch,

954
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,280
but it's also illuminating because
I think this is a period of time

955
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,760
that people aren't terribly
familiar with.Yeah.

956
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,040
Now that you've had distance
from playing this character,

957
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,920
do you have a perception of Mary
and whether she was kind of...

958
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,600
this social climbing person

959
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,040
or whether she should be kind of...

960
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,320
more notable in history and someone
that's a bit of an iconoclast?

961
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,320
I think it's interesting
what she achieved

962
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,640
in a time when women couldn't
even own property.Yeah.

963
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,880
And the fact that she actually
managed to be buried

964
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:14,000
in Westminster Abbey?
That's a pretty amazing achievement.

965
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,240
When you think about where
she came from and what she did

966
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,320
and actually how she set up
each and every one of her children

967
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,960
for success, it's pretty remarkable.

968
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,560
So I guess the Jacobeans,
not too dissimilar from us.

969
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,680
They loved frolicking and fashion,

970
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:31,400
major parties.
They were all so open-minded

971
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,920
in this attitude
towards sex and sexuality,

972
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,440
really in keeping with modern times.

973
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,200
And then we've got this new vision
of the royal family.

974
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:43,040
King James I,
lover of banquets and beautiful men,

975
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:46,920
including his much younger
male lover, George Villiers,

976
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,680
who's managed to social climb
to this position of incredible power.

977
00:45:50,720 --> 00:45:53,760
And then there's Mary Villiers,
who went on this incredible journey,

978
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:58,120
ending up being buried at Westminster
Abbey among kings and queens,

979
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,360
having a portrait of herself,
albeit very, very tiny,

980
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,560
stored here at
the National Portrait Gallery.

981
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,000
I'm pleased that I got
to learn more about her.

982
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,280
'As my excursion through
Jacobean England draws to an end,

983
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,360
I'm more acutely aware that the past
has been selectively recounted

984
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,960
by those telling the stories.

985
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,760
What's clear is that history is
less a static record of facts,

986
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,760
but rather an ever-shifting
series of stories,

987
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,160
a multiverse of interpretations
of artefacts

988
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,520
left behind by our predecessors.

989
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,400
So all it takes is a fresh lens
from a different perspective

990
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,080
and a new version of our past,
this time with Mary

991
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,720
and George Villiers centre stage,
emerges.'

992
00:46:36,240 --> 00:46:38,360
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