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[rhythmic bongo drum music playing]
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[interviewer] Do you remember
the first porn you ever saw?
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It was at a sleepover.
I was with a girlfriend.
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And at, like, 2 a.m. or 3 a.m.
something special came on.
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Here you are, Cinderella.
Don't be fooled by your stepsisters again.
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[woman continues] It was, like,
this Mother Goose porn.
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She would, like, tell you a fairy tale,
and you would see them reenacting it.
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I remember either HBO or Cinemax having,
like, those late-night erotic movies,
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and I remember
one of the first ones that I saw,
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it was two women together,
and I'm like, "Two women can do that?"
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- [woman moaning]
- ['80s music playing]
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In college,
some of my downstairs neighbors
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had a whole DVD
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of Julia Ann and Janine Lindemulder.
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One of their classic Blondage films,
where they were using an ice dildo,
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and maybe because it's all I had...
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[laughs] ...or maybe
because it's an amazing film,
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it was what I watched
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and then what I thought about
for many years.
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[man] My aunt had a copy of Playgirl,
and I tore out all the pages.
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And when you see something like that
that connects with you,
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it makes you realize
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who you are.
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I mean, the sex is almost immaterial.
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[woman 2] I was eleven,
and I went onto Pornhub,
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and I wanted to be surprised,
and I really was.
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The first piece of pornography
that I watched was
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an eight-person geriatric gang bang.
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[man] Just what she needs.
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Which did kind of set the tone
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for how extreme
things could be on the Internet.
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[woman 3] I think
what makes porn "porn" is that
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you watch it expecting
to be sexually aroused in some way.
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I think that's my entire definition of it.
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- [interviewer] That's very broad.
- Yeah.
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So, like, I mean, anything can be porn.
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There is pressure on Ottawa and Quebec
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to act tonight
after alarming allegations surface...
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Pornhub is one of the most profitable
and powerful websites...
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[man] Thirty women are now suing
Pornhub's parent company, MindGeek.
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[woman] The New York Times column
accused the porn site...
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[woman 2] ...of profiting off
the sexual exploitation of women.
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[woman 3] Mastercard says they might stop...
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[man] This isn't about porn.
This is about rape.
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Pornhub is not a porn site.
It's a crime scene.
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[ambient electronic music playing]
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[woman 1] So MindGeek owns Pornhub,
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and I worked there
for three years in various positions.
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I just Googled, actually,
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"Porn scriptwriter, is that a job?"
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And it was.
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And MindGeek was hiring, and I applied
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and I moved to Montréal.
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[ethereal music playing]
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Most people think Pornhub is the biggest
or most visited porn site on the Internet,
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which in terms
of brand recognition, is true.
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It's the one people talk about
when they talk about the porn industry.
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But MindGeek
is a hilariously boring office space.
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Gray carpet, gray cubicle,
open-concept kind of thing.
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It was really just like
working at a tech company.
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I think it was more appealing
to the executives
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to be executives
at a very successful tech company
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than a very successful porn company.
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[dramatic electronic music playing]
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[man] So MindGeek has
a number of adult companies.
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Pornhub is its main platform.
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Brazzers does production.
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And there are a host of other tube sites,
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like Redtube or Xtube that are owned
under the MindGeek umbrella.
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MindGeek came from outside the industry.
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They were really a technology platform.
They didn't produce adult content,
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so they didn't have to have
any relationships with studios,
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they just had to create a platform
where people could share content.
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And that was the promise of Pornhub.
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[woman] ...watchin' Spice.
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[Stabile] In pre-Internet porn,
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you try to keep
as low a profile as possible
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because you didn't want
the feds coming after you,
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you didn't want people
really focusing attention on you,
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you didn't want to make waves.
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But Pornhub knew that if they were gonna
capture market share on a global level,
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they had to make waves.
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And with the Internet,
you blew that wide open.
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- [computer key clicks]
- [music stops]
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[dial-up modem dialing]
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[modem whirring, beeping]
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[dial-up whirring continues]
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[retro computer game music playing]
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So, when the Internet was first developed...
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[keyboard clicking]
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the only kind of pornography
was, like, ASCII art,
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where somebody painstakingly
went and drew titties
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out of semicolons
and periods and stuff like that,
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and it would take forever to download
because bandwidth was so low.
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Eventually bandwidth improved,
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and that gave way
to people uploading scans
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of pornographic images
and videos to share them.
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[Stabile] Consumers learned
that they didn't have to buy
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a $90 DVD and only get four scenes.
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They learned that they could have
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an endless amount of content
for 19.99 a month.
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But the Internet was suspicious.
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People were afraid that, "If I put this
on the Internet, it will be stolen."
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In some cases that came true.
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[Perdue] We started to see an evolution
of people distributing content
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that they didn't have a right to.
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Especially compared to the 1960s,
where porn piracy would be
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leaving a porn magazine in the woods
for somebody to find, you know,
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and maybe a group of six teenagers
would find it in the woods,
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and you would make their day.
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Tube sites like Pornhub
were very disruptive to the porn industry
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in the exact same way that Pirate Bay
was disruptive to the film industry
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and LimeWire was disruptive
to the music industry.
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People started to expect
to get things for free very easily.
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Pornhub wasn't necessarily
the one driving that,
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but Pornhub absolutely
was a part of this... this movement.
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[man] In 2008, Pornhub was becoming
pretty much omnipresent.
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And so, at the time, I had obviously
a very negative opinion about Pornhub
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because they were the ones
that were taking away the money.
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[woman] I was not pleased
with Pornhub early on.
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Piracy was a massive issue,
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and at the time, there wasn't a way
to monetize my own content on Pornhub.
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I... I couldn't sell it on there.
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It was just a game of Whac-A-Mole
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getting my stolen stuff
taken down constantly.
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[man] Pornhub came out
of the fruits of three Concordia students
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who, like any other university students,
apparently liked naked women.
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And they started this thing off,
essentially, as a lark.
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But they sold the company in 2010
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to a guy named Fabian Thylmann,
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and he wrapped it into his empire.
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And, to his credit, Fabian knew
all about search engine optimization
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to make sure that it was Pornhub
that was at the top when you searched.
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[Perdue] Anything that has
a lot of traffic,
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you can assume is really taking advantage
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of search engine optimization
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or the game of trying to get
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your page first.
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When somebody searches, like,
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"big titties,"
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Pornhub wants "Pornhub big titties"
to be number one
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and ideally number two, number three,
number four, number five, number six.
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[woman] Pornhub
fundamentally changed porn distribution
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and porn production as a result.
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Studios that were very used to having
certain budgets and certain returns
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all of a sudden found most, if not all,
of their content disposable
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and it becoming
much more of a volume game.
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[Stabile] By 2011,
studios started to realize
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that it was better to partner with them.
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[music stops]
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[Stabile] And in 2012, Fabian Thylmann
was suddenly giving the keynote
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at a major industry conference.
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I'm hoping that my openness
throughout the speech
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will be beneficial to all of you,
and some will understand a bit more
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of how we do things
and why we do things certain ways.
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And why we're quite friendly people,
although we own tube sites.
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So let's get back a bit and look at
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what the industry had to face
over the past few years.
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I think the industry faces
a lot of change often.
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I think it's normal that we do
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because we have always been more or less
at the forefront of technology.
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And therefore face the negative change
and the positive change at the same time.
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[keyboard clicks]
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[Patriquin] First time I wrote about it,
I had no idea
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there was a connection
between Pornhub and MindGeek.
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That one company owned the other.
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MindGeek itself is basically
a data-harvesting operation.
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This is a company that does exactly
what Netflix does, what Facebook does.
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It gathers data on its users
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to better tailor content
towards those eyeballs.
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And they're extremely good at it.
In fact, better at it than Netflix
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because they have that much more
to build an algorithm around.
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And, of course, being able to monetize
user-generated content
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with advertising was extremely profitable.
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But then Thylmann
was convicted of tax evasion,
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and the assets were bought
by MindGeek employees
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by the name of Feras Antoon
and David Tassillo
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and a guy named Bernd Bergmair,
who was an investor.
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And they were very successful
in pushing Pornhub
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to the very, sort of,
outer limits of mainstream acceptance.
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As usual, when we need a little
emotional uplift, we know where to turn.
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Pornography.
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[audience laughter]
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Specifically, the largest
porn site on the Internet, Pornhub.
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Though many of you can probably get there
by just typing 'P' into your browser.
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[audience laughs]
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- I found the whole movie on Pornhub.
- [audience chuckles]
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- Uh... I don't wanna...
- I don't know what you're talking about.
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[audience laughs]
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It's sort of a hub for porn. Um...
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They were really great
about brand recognition.
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They bought billboards in Times Square
knowing they would be controversial
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and knowing they could benefit from
all the earned media that comes with that.
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We did a lot of collaborations
with celebrities like Kanye.
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Pornhub is pop...
I mean, I think in our heads
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most people could even see the colors
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or hear the song.
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[Pornhub intro playing]
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[mouse clicks]
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[Pornhub intro playing]
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[mouse clicks]
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- [plays Pornhub intro on drums]
- [students cheering]
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For the last 15 years, I would say,
by far, it's the most household name.
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[woman] So I had a page,
and I had, like, millions of viewers,
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and I'm like, "Well, no wonder
why people are noticing me
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in the train station,
when I go flying. No wonder.
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Sixteen million people
have seen my asshole."
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Pornhub released their annual report
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of the top pornographic searches
in the country.
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They broke it down by state,
and the results are very interesting.
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In Arkansas, for instance, the number one
most searched porn word was "divorced,"
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which might be
the saddest thing I've ever heard.
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Pornhub insights got
a tremendous amount of media attention.
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Their big push was always
these end-of-year data numbers
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where they would list
the number of videos,
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the top stars, the top search terms.
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"Lesbian" has now dropped down
to number three and "MILF" to number four...
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[Stabile] It went into everybody's homes,
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and it got people talking about things
that were scandalous beforehand.
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I think that was one of the things
that later made Pornhub a target.
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Some people don't like
that these things are not in the shadows.
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- They want this stuff hidden.
- [chanting] Shut it down!
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[Stabile] And, of course,
the arguments are not new.
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It's just the medium
that they're battling has changed.
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[chanting] Shut it down!
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[Stabile] And so
we started to hear the drum beat
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of people coming for Pornhub
from outside the industry.
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[Perdue] It's really interesting to see,
on a very wide scale,
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people trying to remove
pornography from the Internet.
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It feels almost like ripping
the spine out of something, you know,
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given how much
every element of the Internet
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has been influenced
and led by pornography.
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It... It's just creating this
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00:13:29,517 --> 00:13:33,103
absolutely, like, untenable tension
235
00:13:33,187 --> 00:13:39,443
between the two industries
that... that actually exist so tight-knit.
236
00:13:41,028 --> 00:13:44,073
And the people
who often get left in the dust
237
00:13:44,156 --> 00:13:46,367
are primarily sex workers,
238
00:13:47,535 --> 00:13:48,661
primarily performers,
239
00:13:49,662 --> 00:13:51,580
and also users
240
00:13:51,664 --> 00:13:56,877
trying to exist as a person
with a sex drive online.
241
00:13:58,462 --> 00:14:01,549
And it just becomes
a precedent for great censorship
242
00:14:01,632 --> 00:14:03,801
that we see over and over and over again,
243
00:14:03,884 --> 00:14:07,012
unreasonably applied
to the most vulnerable people.
244
00:14:07,096 --> 00:14:09,098
[wistful piano music playing]
245
00:14:25,197 --> 00:14:27,637
[interviewer] Do you consent
to how you look in the interview?
246
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:30,661
Yes, thank you for showing me.
I was curious. [inhales]
247
00:14:30,744 --> 00:14:32,784
- [interviewer] Cool. Do you wanna slate?
- I would.
248
00:14:33,414 --> 00:14:35,249
- [interviewer] Rolling.
- [crew 1] Speeding.
249
00:14:35,332 --> 00:14:38,544
[crew 2] Uh, Gwen interview,
series AB, common mark, marker.
250
00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:43,507
My name is Gwen Adora,
and I am an adult performer,
251
00:14:43,591 --> 00:14:47,177
an online content creator,
semi-influencer,
252
00:14:47,261 --> 00:14:48,470
babe. [laughs]
253
00:14:48,554 --> 00:14:50,014
Uh, that's who I am.
254
00:14:51,599 --> 00:14:53,684
I definitely identify as a sex worker.
255
00:14:54,435 --> 00:14:58,647
That's not the first thing I say to people
'cause I feel like it's such a broad term.
256
00:14:59,231 --> 00:15:00,900
I don't necessarily say that upfront.
257
00:15:00,983 --> 00:15:04,737
But that's something I identify as,
like, politically and job-wise.
258
00:15:07,698 --> 00:15:11,660
The words "porn star" or "sex worker"
doesn't really associate with my body type
259
00:15:11,744 --> 00:15:12,578
for a lot of people.
260
00:15:12,661 --> 00:15:14,663
So a lot of people are generally like,
261
00:15:14,747 --> 00:15:18,125
"Oh! I didn't, like,
realize fat women could do porn!"
262
00:15:18,208 --> 00:15:21,378
♪ I've got a perfect body ♪
263
00:15:22,004 --> 00:15:24,298
♪ But sometimes I forget ♪
264
00:15:24,381 --> 00:15:26,634
People assume that, like,
I'm in it for, like,
265
00:15:27,635 --> 00:15:29,011
the wrong reasons.
266
00:15:29,595 --> 00:15:35,392
They're like, "Oh, you're doing something
that's, you know, taboo and underground
267
00:15:35,476 --> 00:15:38,604
and shouldn't be talked about,
but we'll definitely jerk off to it."
268
00:15:40,898 --> 00:15:43,734
People automatically assume
I'm doing mainstream porn
269
00:15:43,817 --> 00:15:46,028
just because
that's the immediate connection,
270
00:15:46,111 --> 00:15:48,030
that's what people know the most of.
271
00:15:48,113 --> 00:15:51,825
Um, but in reality, I'm just in my room
by myself making little videos.
272
00:15:51,909 --> 00:15:53,827
Just like a YouTuber, basically.
273
00:15:53,911 --> 00:15:55,579
[ambient music playing]
274
00:15:56,705 --> 00:15:59,833
[Adora] On a typical filming day,
I would get ready,
275
00:16:00,918 --> 00:16:04,004
do my makeup, set up my tripod.
276
00:16:04,088 --> 00:16:05,089
[camera beeps]
277
00:16:05,172 --> 00:16:07,132
And then the clothes start coming off.
278
00:16:07,925 --> 00:16:11,470
[sighing] Oh my God,
what a crazy night on that dance floor.
279
00:16:11,553 --> 00:16:14,682
I didn't expect to be getting
that wild this vacation.
280
00:16:15,224 --> 00:16:17,726
[sighs] Oh my God, take a moment.
281
00:16:17,810 --> 00:16:20,062
Take my shoes off. [groans]
282
00:16:21,730 --> 00:16:22,730
[sighs]
283
00:16:25,109 --> 00:16:26,109
Oh!
284
00:16:26,527 --> 00:16:28,153
Hi, you!
285
00:16:28,237 --> 00:16:29,822
You... You look familiar.
286
00:16:29,905 --> 00:16:31,949
You're in... You were in my...
287
00:16:32,574 --> 00:16:34,785
my communications class last semester.
288
00:16:34,868 --> 00:16:35,868
I taught you.
289
00:16:36,286 --> 00:16:39,999
[interview] So I do photography,
I do videography, I do editing.
290
00:16:41,208 --> 00:16:44,044
Come on. No one is watching.
291
00:16:44,128 --> 00:16:47,047
You're on vacation, get it out.
292
00:16:47,131 --> 00:16:48,131
Do it.
293
00:16:48,173 --> 00:16:50,092
[interview] I do marketing, PR.
294
00:16:50,175 --> 00:16:53,595
Oh, do you wanna see Miss Adora's tits?
295
00:16:54,471 --> 00:16:55,597
I do it all.
296
00:16:55,681 --> 00:16:59,226
I basically do, like, a whole,
like, media company's jobs,
297
00:16:59,309 --> 00:17:01,812
all in one person, for myself. [laughs]
298
00:17:01,895 --> 00:17:05,274
It's a lot. And yes, there is some
masturbating on camera sometimes.
299
00:17:05,357 --> 00:17:08,777
Oh! So fucking good. Mm-hmm?
300
00:17:08,861 --> 00:17:12,906
Are you gonna come
on my big fucking titties?
301
00:17:13,449 --> 00:17:17,953
Actually, wait.
We're gonna do this before that.
302
00:17:20,247 --> 00:17:21,915
[interview] This is my lube shooter.
303
00:17:21,999 --> 00:17:25,419
Oh! There we go. Come on. Come on, baby.
304
00:17:25,502 --> 00:17:27,963
Yeah, come on! Come on! [groaning]
305
00:17:28,047 --> 00:17:30,340
Oh fuck! Oh...
306
00:17:31,008 --> 00:17:32,259
Oh my God. [gasps]
307
00:17:33,677 --> 00:17:34,803
So sticky.
308
00:17:36,597 --> 00:17:39,266
It does add, like... [chuckles]
...a lot of time to the...
309
00:17:39,349 --> 00:17:42,644
the process of making your own content.
310
00:17:42,728 --> 00:17:46,315
But, um, the great thing about it is
I get to control the whole thing.
311
00:17:47,608 --> 00:17:51,570
I can control the narrative.
Choose the scenes that I take on.
312
00:17:51,653 --> 00:17:54,615
I don't have to perform
with someone I don't wanna perform with.
313
00:17:54,698 --> 00:17:55,698
[water gushing]
314
00:17:56,492 --> 00:18:00,037
[Adora] I get to edit it the way I want.
I get to promote it the way I want to.
315
00:18:00,871 --> 00:18:03,332
I am Gwen Adora full-time.
It's my full-time job,
316
00:18:03,415 --> 00:18:07,252
which is great because, you know, um,
not everyone has the same opportunities
317
00:18:07,336 --> 00:18:10,297
for mainstream porn,
but yeah, anyone can do amateur.
318
00:18:10,380 --> 00:18:11,507
Which is lovely.
319
00:18:14,343 --> 00:18:17,054
Pornhub was a site
that I initially stayed away from.
320
00:18:17,137 --> 00:18:19,723
There was a lot of free videos
that were stolen.
321
00:18:19,807 --> 00:18:22,309
So I was, kind of,
on my smaller niche sites.
322
00:18:22,935 --> 00:18:27,898
It wasn't until I went
to the AVN Expo in Vegas
323
00:18:28,774 --> 00:18:32,277
that I was pulled aside by Jade Jordan,
324
00:18:32,361 --> 00:18:34,571
who was at the Modelhub booth there.
325
00:18:35,072 --> 00:18:38,492
She came up to me, and she was like,
"You need to be on Pornhub."
326
00:18:38,575 --> 00:18:40,577
"You're gonna be
the next big BBW on Pornhub."
327
00:18:41,245 --> 00:18:45,499
BBW is 'big beautiful woman.'
And so, I was like, "Okay, tell me more."
328
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,504
She gave me a good introduction to,
you know, how to monetize the site.
329
00:18:50,587 --> 00:18:53,340
I had no clue
that they had Modelhub at the time,
330
00:18:53,423 --> 00:18:57,594
which was the pay-per-video side
of the platform to sell them.
331
00:18:57,678 --> 00:18:59,221
That's amazing.
332
00:18:59,304 --> 00:19:01,598
And, tied with the traffic of Pornhub,
333
00:19:01,682 --> 00:19:04,101
I was like,
"That sounds like a win-win to me."
334
00:19:05,102 --> 00:19:08,063
It wasn't until XBIZ Miami,
when I met Noelle,
335
00:19:08,147 --> 00:19:11,233
who was, at the time,
working in the Modelhub department.
336
00:19:11,733 --> 00:19:13,735
She'd reached out through email and said,
337
00:19:13,819 --> 00:19:16,280
"Hey, we want you to come
to this Modelhub dinner."
338
00:19:16,363 --> 00:19:17,447
[women squealing]
339
00:19:17,531 --> 00:19:19,783
[Perdue] I met Gwen
through the model program.
340
00:19:19,867 --> 00:19:23,245
I started with Modelhub
in talent acquisitions.
341
00:19:23,328 --> 00:19:28,917
We met because I was scoping out models
on other sites that are doing really well
342
00:19:29,001 --> 00:19:33,505
and being like,
"Hey, like, what about us?"
343
00:19:34,173 --> 00:19:36,383
[Adora] They took us all out
for food and drinks
344
00:19:36,466 --> 00:19:38,677
and told us how we were doing
on the platform
345
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,806
and then also tips and tricks
on how to fully utilize the system.
346
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,226
So Modelhub is Pornhub's clip site.
347
00:19:47,227 --> 00:19:50,647
It launched in 2018,
348
00:19:50,731 --> 00:19:54,026
and that was really when verified models
349
00:19:54,109 --> 00:19:55,944
started making money on the site.
350
00:19:56,820 --> 00:20:00,657
[Adora] So I put more energy into it,
and once I started doing that,
351
00:20:00,741 --> 00:20:03,785
I noticed the benefits in terms of money
352
00:20:03,869 --> 00:20:05,746
and in terms of following.
353
00:20:06,747 --> 00:20:08,457
When I put my clips on Modelhub,
354
00:20:08,540 --> 00:20:10,542
I didn't have to promote them
for them to sell
355
00:20:10,626 --> 00:20:13,837
because the Pornhub traffic
that was filtering through,
356
00:20:13,921 --> 00:20:17,049
because the sites were connected,
was just automatic.
357
00:20:21,386 --> 00:20:22,387
[music ends]
358
00:20:22,930 --> 00:20:24,723
[background music plays through phone]
359
00:20:24,806 --> 00:20:28,185
[DeVille] Before there was such
an easy way
360
00:20:28,268 --> 00:20:31,563
to monetize self-made content,
361
00:20:31,647 --> 00:20:33,690
we, meaning performers,
362
00:20:33,774 --> 00:20:37,027
were all at the mercy
of studio-produced porn.
363
00:20:37,736 --> 00:20:38,570
[music stops]
364
00:20:38,654 --> 00:20:42,783
[DeVille] But these online platforms,
like Modelhub and OnlyFans,
365
00:20:42,866 --> 00:20:46,787
gave us autonomy,
power, a good bit more money.
366
00:20:47,704 --> 00:20:50,040
It has made financial freedom
367
00:20:50,707 --> 00:20:53,377
very easy and accessible
368
00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:57,130
for so many more models.
369
00:20:57,214 --> 00:20:59,800
That model of,
like, the fan subscription site
370
00:20:59,883 --> 00:21:01,677
is, like, a complete game-changer.
371
00:21:02,594 --> 00:21:06,014
I don't rely on income from studio shoots.
372
00:21:07,432 --> 00:21:09,309
That's the reason
I was able to buy a house.
373
00:21:09,393 --> 00:21:11,853
I wouldn't have been able
to reliably save up
374
00:21:11,937 --> 00:21:14,940
to buy a house
from doing studio work before.
375
00:21:15,023 --> 00:21:16,525
[woman in movie groans, stops]
376
00:21:17,025 --> 00:21:22,155
[Hudson] When I was shooting for a studio,
I could make roughly four grand a month.
377
00:21:22,239 --> 00:21:25,117
- [woman in movie] Just like that! Ah!
- [man in movie] Ooh!
378
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,120
[Hudson] With Modelhub,
I started getting well over ten grand.
379
00:21:29,121 --> 00:21:33,125
Content creation has shown that
performers have always been in charge,
380
00:21:33,792 --> 00:21:37,170
and they can dictate
what they want and what they don't want.
381
00:21:37,254 --> 00:21:39,840
Without us, there would be no industry.
382
00:21:39,923 --> 00:21:43,593
[man in movie groaning rhythmically]
383
00:21:45,262 --> 00:21:49,308
[Perdue] Pornhub has evolved
over the past ten or so years
384
00:21:49,391 --> 00:21:52,394
to have multiple different ways
of making money
385
00:21:52,477 --> 00:21:55,480
and multiple different ways
of distributing pornography.
386
00:21:56,148 --> 00:21:59,318
There are a bunch of different levels
in terms of how involved you wanna be
387
00:21:59,401 --> 00:22:00,777
as somebody uploading content.
388
00:22:01,737 --> 00:22:05,240
But the process of uploading
a video to Pornhub is pretty similar
389
00:22:05,324 --> 00:22:08,285
to uploading content
to any other platform.
390
00:22:09,578 --> 00:22:11,705
You'll choose the file
that you wanna upload.
391
00:22:11,788 --> 00:22:14,166
Give it a title, a description.
392
00:22:14,791 --> 00:22:18,003
You can tag
the people in the video if you want.
393
00:22:18,503 --> 00:22:22,632
And then a certain number of tags
for categorization within the site.
394
00:22:23,216 --> 00:22:27,095
POV, BBW, big tits, creampie.
395
00:22:28,138 --> 00:22:31,224
But some tags are banned
because some of the kinky stuff
396
00:22:31,308 --> 00:22:34,644
is harder for them to sell
to, like, credit card processors.
397
00:22:36,188 --> 00:22:38,982
[Perdue] In general,
people tag their videos
398
00:22:39,066 --> 00:22:41,234
with as many tags as they can
399
00:22:41,318 --> 00:22:44,112
so that these search engines
pick up on those terms
400
00:22:44,196 --> 00:22:45,864
and show them to the consumer.
401
00:22:46,865 --> 00:22:48,909
And after that, you hit 'publish.'
402
00:22:49,785 --> 00:22:51,161
And then it lives on there.
403
00:22:51,745 --> 00:22:53,747
[dark electronic music playing]
404
00:22:57,709 --> 00:23:00,879
[Perdue] Of course,
there are some categories, like "teen,"
405
00:23:00,962 --> 00:23:02,923
which obviously are upsetting.
406
00:23:03,006 --> 00:23:07,094
But there is a larger issue
where "teen" in pornography
407
00:23:07,177 --> 00:23:10,097
doesn't necessarily refer to teenagers.
408
00:23:10,180 --> 00:23:12,140
It's more in reference to a body type.
409
00:23:12,224 --> 00:23:15,852
Any petite performer
would be categorized as teen.
410
00:23:15,936 --> 00:23:19,231
Age doesn't necessarily play into that
411
00:23:19,314 --> 00:23:21,274
as much as people think it does.
412
00:23:21,358 --> 00:23:25,237
It feels like you're saying,
like, "Oh, teen." You know?
413
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,031
It's hard to come up
with a solution to tagging like that
414
00:23:28,115 --> 00:23:30,700
that doesn't feel like
you're policing people's sexuality
415
00:23:30,784 --> 00:23:33,161
that they're allowed to have
because they're a legal adult.
416
00:23:36,164 --> 00:23:38,750
[Dahl] You know,
we're providing entertainment
417
00:23:38,834 --> 00:23:41,461
within the legal bounds
for consenting adults
418
00:23:41,545 --> 00:23:45,841
and within that buffet
of pornographic content,
419
00:23:45,924 --> 00:23:48,844
that adults, if they choose to consume it,
420
00:23:48,927 --> 00:23:50,846
can choose anything.
421
00:23:53,181 --> 00:23:57,811
But if you let just anyone
upload anything,
422
00:23:57,894 --> 00:23:59,521
you're going to get
423
00:23:59,604 --> 00:24:03,066
anyone uploading anything.
424
00:24:03,567 --> 00:24:04,901
And that's not okay.
425
00:24:06,862 --> 00:24:10,740
Prior to December 2020,
verification was mandatory
426
00:24:10,824 --> 00:24:13,076
if you wanted
to make any money on your content.
427
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,705
So you would have to go through
the process of submitting your ID
428
00:24:16,788 --> 00:24:18,039
and getting approved.
429
00:24:20,375 --> 00:24:23,044
But if you didn't care
about making money on the site,
430
00:24:23,128 --> 00:24:25,922
you could just make an account
with an email address,
431
00:24:26,006 --> 00:24:28,091
and you could upload whatever you wanted.
432
00:24:29,593 --> 00:24:32,471
But because verification
wasn't mandatory for all,
433
00:24:32,554 --> 00:24:35,098
people were still uploading content
that wasn't theirs,
434
00:24:35,182 --> 00:24:37,559
and also people were uploading content
435
00:24:37,642 --> 00:24:40,729
that couldn't necessarily
be traced back to somebody.
436
00:24:40,812 --> 00:24:44,357
So, if something got uploaded
that was not consensual,
437
00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:48,361
it's very difficult
to actually track that person down
438
00:24:48,445 --> 00:24:52,115
and make sure that,
you know, this doesn't happen again.
439
00:24:53,992 --> 00:24:58,997
You know, we have been wanting
strict verified-only users
440
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,209
from all of these tube sites
for a long time.
441
00:25:02,292 --> 00:25:04,544
We don't want other garbage people
442
00:25:04,628 --> 00:25:07,214
on a site
that we're putting our content on.
443
00:25:09,007 --> 00:25:13,929
Many people within the company
and many, many, many performers
444
00:25:14,012 --> 00:25:18,475
have been advocating
for mandatory verification for years.
445
00:25:19,059 --> 00:25:21,436
And, generally, the response was,
446
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,397
"We're working on it.
It's happening eventually."
447
00:25:24,481 --> 00:25:26,399
"Sit tight." That kind of thing.
448
00:25:27,067 --> 00:25:28,151
And that was said
449
00:25:28,944 --> 00:25:31,238
throughout my time there,
which was three years.
450
00:25:32,906 --> 00:25:37,577
But the vast majority
of Pornhub's content was unverified.
451
00:25:38,328 --> 00:25:40,163
And content is how they make money.
452
00:25:44,834 --> 00:25:46,336
[woman] With the free content,
453
00:25:46,419 --> 00:25:49,047
you have a lot of people
motivated by some really sick stuff.
454
00:25:52,676 --> 00:25:56,096
I think I knew the name Pornhub
because it's pretty much a household name.
455
00:25:56,179 --> 00:25:59,391
It's just, sort of, like,
I know what Kellogg's brand is.
456
00:25:59,474 --> 00:26:01,142
Like, I just knew what it was.
457
00:26:01,226 --> 00:26:03,728
And when I was at NCOSE,
I first heard the name MindGeek.
458
00:26:04,646 --> 00:26:07,399
NCOSE's the National Center
on Sexual Exploitation,
459
00:26:07,482 --> 00:26:10,735
and it's our mission
to expose this interweb
460
00:26:10,819 --> 00:26:13,863
of sexual exploitation
and advocate for survivors.
461
00:26:13,947 --> 00:26:18,660
Because it really is irrelevant
what your faith background is,
462
00:26:18,743 --> 00:26:20,537
what your political beliefs are.
463
00:26:20,620 --> 00:26:24,541
Everyone can be unified on this issue
that no one should be sexually exploited.
464
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:28,253
We've been researching
Pornhub and MindGeek for years,
465
00:26:28,336 --> 00:26:30,338
so I had tons of research,
466
00:26:30,422 --> 00:26:32,716
I had delved into how the site worked,
467
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:35,927
I had countless screenshots
of some of the more horrific things.
468
00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:40,223
But the Trafficking Hub campaign
completely changed the game.
469
00:26:40,307 --> 00:26:41,891
[optimistic music playing]
470
00:26:43,602 --> 00:26:47,022
Laila Mickelwait here with an update
on the Trafficking Hub campaign.
471
00:26:47,105 --> 00:26:49,482
A quick one. Um, things are moving along.
472
00:26:49,566 --> 00:26:52,944
We continue to gain traction.
A lot is happening behind the scenes.
473
00:26:53,028 --> 00:26:55,030
[suspenseful music playing]
474
00:27:03,663 --> 00:27:06,916
[people chanting] Shut it down!
Shut it down! Shut it down!
475
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,628
[Pinter] It was just
such a viral movement.
476
00:27:09,711 --> 00:27:10,754
Shut it down!
477
00:27:10,837 --> 00:27:13,298
It reached so many people
that we had never reached before.
478
00:27:14,007 --> 00:27:17,177
Laila Mickelwait, you know,
she's just an ally in the movement,
479
00:27:17,260 --> 00:27:18,678
but she had a special gift.
480
00:27:18,762 --> 00:27:20,889
Today, I'm excited to announce the launch
481
00:27:20,972 --> 00:27:23,600
of the Trafficking Hub
crowdfunding campaign.
482
00:27:23,683 --> 00:27:26,561
I'm just gonna be honest with you
and frank about this,
483
00:27:26,645 --> 00:27:28,813
we are taking on a mega corporation.
484
00:27:28,897 --> 00:27:32,567
A company that's making hundreds
of millions of dollars every year.
485
00:27:32,651 --> 00:27:34,986
Much of which is on the backs
of real victims.
486
00:27:35,070 --> 00:27:38,239
Go to traffickinghub.com.
Sign the petition.
487
00:27:38,323 --> 00:27:41,201
Together we are going to shut this down.
488
00:27:41,284 --> 00:27:43,870
We have reached 500,000 signatures.
489
00:27:43,953 --> 00:27:45,872
We have recently sailed past
490
00:27:45,955 --> 00:27:48,792
830,000 signatures on the petition.
491
00:27:48,875 --> 00:27:51,378
This is truly a global movement.
492
00:27:51,461 --> 00:27:54,631
We reached two million signatures
493
00:27:54,714 --> 00:27:57,050
on the petition to shut down Pornhub
494
00:27:57,133 --> 00:27:59,427
and to hold its executives accountable
495
00:27:59,511 --> 00:28:01,888
for complicity in the sex trafficking,
496
00:28:01,971 --> 00:28:04,808
the rape, the abuse, and the assault
497
00:28:04,891 --> 00:28:06,309
of men, women, and children.
498
00:28:09,479 --> 00:28:13,024
In the time I've been in porn,
I've seen so many of these campaigns
499
00:28:13,775 --> 00:28:14,609
come and go.
500
00:28:14,693 --> 00:28:17,153
Pornhub is infested with videos
501
00:28:17,237 --> 00:28:20,740
of the real rape and the trafficking
of women and children.
502
00:28:20,824 --> 00:28:25,704
[Akira] But Trafficking Hub was scary
because it hit a lot of people.
503
00:28:25,787 --> 00:28:28,456
It really, really got a lot of traction.
504
00:28:28,540 --> 00:28:30,083
[chanting] Lock them up!
505
00:28:31,334 --> 00:28:35,088
[Akira] It's really, really frustrating
because they really often know
506
00:28:35,171 --> 00:28:39,926
how to pull people in by, like,
talking about these really sad stories
507
00:28:40,009 --> 00:28:42,011
of actual sex trafficking.
508
00:28:42,804 --> 00:28:46,433
But those stories
have nothing to do with us as an industry.
509
00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:48,393
[dramatic music playing]
510
00:28:51,688 --> 00:28:53,857
[male narrator] Pornhub has become
the global epicenter
511
00:28:53,940 --> 00:28:55,191
of Internet pornography.
512
00:28:55,775 --> 00:28:58,903
The company makes hundreds of millions
of dollars through ad revenue,
513
00:28:58,987 --> 00:29:01,281
data collection,
and premium subscriptions,
514
00:29:02,282 --> 00:29:04,576
and it's blatantly enabling and profiting
515
00:29:04,659 --> 00:29:07,078
from rape, sexual abuse,
516
00:29:07,787 --> 00:29:09,247
and child sex trafficking.
517
00:29:10,999 --> 00:29:13,001
[Akira] Usually,
when I see things like that,
518
00:29:13,084 --> 00:29:16,254
it's like, "Ugh! Just wait for it
to blow over," kind of thing.
519
00:29:16,755 --> 00:29:18,673
But, in this case, it seemed like
520
00:29:18,757 --> 00:29:21,760
it was, like, really making a big splash,
521
00:29:21,843 --> 00:29:24,804
and, like, people in my personal life
were texting me, like,
522
00:29:24,888 --> 00:29:26,931
"Hey, is this true?"
523
00:29:27,015 --> 00:29:29,517
"Does Pornhub allow child pornography?"
524
00:29:30,059 --> 00:29:33,146
And it was scary to me that, like,
525
00:29:33,229 --> 00:29:36,483
people in my real life
were, like, questioning that.
526
00:29:39,694 --> 00:29:43,198
[Pinter] All of the research
and stuff that she brought to light,
527
00:29:43,281 --> 00:29:45,200
many of us
had been talking to each other about.
528
00:29:45,283 --> 00:29:47,994
We tried to get the word out,
but she had a special gift
529
00:29:48,077 --> 00:29:52,165
for packaging it in a way
that was so easy to understand.
530
00:29:52,248 --> 00:29:54,292
And when seen on Twitter,
531
00:29:54,375 --> 00:29:57,128
and someone's pointing out,
"This is a real person."
532
00:29:57,212 --> 00:30:00,465
Then the victims are coming forward
and saying, "This is my video."
533
00:30:00,965 --> 00:30:02,175
It shakes everyone up,
534
00:30:02,258 --> 00:30:06,387
and that's what she was able to do
that no one had done before.
535
00:30:06,471 --> 00:30:09,557
And certainly because
she was such a powerful advocate
536
00:30:10,391 --> 00:30:12,477
on behalf of those victims coming forward
537
00:30:13,061 --> 00:30:15,313
and speaking about this so eloquently,
538
00:30:15,396 --> 00:30:19,192
it made room for us
to articulate that in our cases.
539
00:30:20,443 --> 00:30:22,529
So we are bringing sex trafficking claims
540
00:30:22,612 --> 00:30:26,199
and alleging that Pornhub knows
that there are traffickers
541
00:30:26,282 --> 00:30:28,618
intentionally creating
this content for their site
542
00:30:28,701 --> 00:30:31,412
or knowingly distributing
child pornography on their site.
543
00:30:31,496 --> 00:30:32,330
They know that.
544
00:30:32,413 --> 00:30:35,750
They're facilitating it intentionally
because they know there's a demand for it.
545
00:30:36,417 --> 00:30:37,669
They're marketing it.
546
00:30:37,752 --> 00:30:39,671
All because they're profiting from it.
547
00:30:40,171 --> 00:30:42,799
And so, knowingly profiting
from sex trafficking
548
00:30:42,882 --> 00:30:44,843
is what we believe they are liable for.
549
00:30:47,095 --> 00:30:48,972
You have a 14-year-old girl saying,
550
00:30:49,055 --> 00:30:53,059
"I was raped, and my rape
has been on Pornhub for years."
551
00:30:53,726 --> 00:30:56,521
"I've requested it be removed,
and no one helped me."
552
00:30:56,604 --> 00:30:58,398
"Not the police. Not the website."
553
00:30:58,982 --> 00:31:01,192
For so long, no one has cared.
554
00:31:01,943 --> 00:31:06,239
And then, finally, Pulitzer Prize-winning
journalist, Nick Kristof,
555
00:31:06,322 --> 00:31:08,700
saw the Trafficking Hub campaign
and was concerned.
556
00:31:10,368 --> 00:31:14,080
I spoke with him a few times and was able
to point him in the right direction.
557
00:31:15,123 --> 00:31:19,168
And I think he wasn't sure
this could be as bad as it seemed.
558
00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:21,921
But unfortunately, once you see the site
559
00:31:22,005 --> 00:31:25,508
and once you see the evidence,
you just can't deny it.
560
00:31:28,428 --> 00:31:30,555
[Kristof] When I started reporting this,
my hope was
561
00:31:30,638 --> 00:31:32,390
that there would be
nothing to write about.
562
00:31:32,473 --> 00:31:34,225
That I'd look into it and, uh...
563
00:31:35,101 --> 00:31:37,478
it would turn out to be murky
or exaggerated
564
00:31:37,562 --> 00:31:39,898
and that there really wasn't
a story there.
565
00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:43,359
But the more I looked,
566
00:31:43,443 --> 00:31:46,654
the more I felt this was something
567
00:31:46,738 --> 00:31:49,490
that the public should be aware of
568
00:31:50,074 --> 00:31:52,076
and that if the public were aware of it,
569
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,121
you know, people would not like the idea
570
00:31:55,204 --> 00:31:57,999
of a major company behaving in this way.
571
00:31:58,082 --> 00:32:00,627
[papers rustling]
572
00:32:02,879 --> 00:32:06,799
[Kristof] So I reached out
to Pornhub pretty early on
573
00:32:06,883 --> 00:32:09,052
to speak to the executives,
574
00:32:09,719 --> 00:32:12,263
and Pornhub
was not particularly responsive.
575
00:32:13,056 --> 00:32:15,350
The CEO refused to speak to me.
576
00:32:16,267 --> 00:32:19,270
But the more I explored,
577
00:32:19,354 --> 00:32:21,606
the more aghast I became
578
00:32:22,231 --> 00:32:25,860
because I found
just too many cases of kids
579
00:32:26,486 --> 00:32:30,031
whose worst moments
were preserved in amber on Pornhub
580
00:32:30,114 --> 00:32:33,451
in ways that were gonna be devastating
for the rest of their lives.
581
00:32:35,036 --> 00:32:39,582
It was about six months that I spent
trying to get survivors to talk about it.
582
00:32:40,249 --> 00:32:43,586
This is, uh...
This is Serena, the woman I, uh...
583
00:32:44,379 --> 00:32:45,880
The young woman I wrote about.
584
00:32:46,839 --> 00:32:49,759
Serena Fleites was a young woman
585
00:32:49,842 --> 00:32:52,887
who told me her story,
which was just devastating.
586
00:32:55,848 --> 00:32:59,352
At 14, she was an eighth grader
587
00:32:59,435 --> 00:33:01,938
who had a crush on a boy
who was a year older.
588
00:33:03,690 --> 00:33:07,443
He asked her for a naked video,
589
00:33:07,527 --> 00:33:10,905
and she sent him a naked video of herself.
590
00:33:10,989 --> 00:33:14,909
He asked for another.
She sent another. Another after that.
591
00:33:15,785 --> 00:33:18,663
Then kids started
looking at her and smirking.
592
00:33:19,622 --> 00:33:22,667
Somebody put those videos on Pornhub.
593
00:33:24,085 --> 00:33:26,671
One of them had 400,000 views.
594
00:33:27,922 --> 00:33:31,050
She asked Pornhub to remove them.
595
00:33:31,676 --> 00:33:33,970
Sometimes it did. Sometimes it didn't.
596
00:33:34,554 --> 00:33:36,973
And when it did remove them,
597
00:33:37,056 --> 00:33:39,517
then somebody else
would immediately upload it again.
598
00:33:41,477 --> 00:33:43,312
And Pornhub made money off this.
599
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:46,232
They ran ads on this.
600
00:33:48,067 --> 00:33:50,403
That was what drove me
to write this piece.
601
00:33:50,486 --> 00:33:52,488
[subdued electronic music playing]
602
00:33:55,074 --> 00:33:57,535
[Stabile] So in December 2020,
603
00:33:57,618 --> 00:34:01,622
the New York Times ran
an op-ed by Nicholas Kristof
604
00:34:01,706 --> 00:34:03,458
called "The Children of Pornhub."
605
00:34:04,292 --> 00:34:07,962
I read it the morning that it came out,
and honestly, I thought,
606
00:34:08,046 --> 00:34:09,589
"This is all smoke, no fire."
607
00:34:09,672 --> 00:34:12,884
Um... And so,
I... I didn't think much of it at first.
608
00:34:14,844 --> 00:34:19,140
[Kristof] "Pornhub prides itself on being
the cheery, winking face of naughty,
609
00:34:19,223 --> 00:34:22,060
the website that buys
a billboard in Times Square
610
00:34:22,143 --> 00:34:24,979
and provides snow plows
to clear Boston streets."
611
00:34:25,063 --> 00:34:27,982
"It donates to organizations
fighting for racial equality
612
00:34:28,066 --> 00:34:32,945
and offers steamy content free
to get people through Covid-19 shutdowns."
613
00:34:33,029 --> 00:34:35,406
"That supposedly 'wholesome Pornhub'
614
00:34:35,490 --> 00:34:38,409
attracts 3.5 billion visits a month."
615
00:34:38,910 --> 00:34:41,537
"More than Netflix, Yahoo, or Amazon."
616
00:34:42,121 --> 00:34:46,793
"Pornhub rakes in money from almost
three billion ad impressions a day."
617
00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:48,252
"One ranking lists Pornhub
618
00:34:48,336 --> 00:34:51,297
as the 10th most-visited website
in the world."
619
00:34:51,380 --> 00:34:54,008
"Yet there is another side
of the company."
620
00:34:55,218 --> 00:34:58,763
"Its site is infested with rape videos."
621
00:34:58,846 --> 00:35:00,556
"It monetizes child rape..."
622
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,268
Obviously, in the ensuing days,
I was wrong.
623
00:35:05,394 --> 00:35:07,105
It became a phenomenon.
624
00:35:13,486 --> 00:35:16,006
[Patriquin] The New York Times did
what The New York Times does.
625
00:35:16,030 --> 00:35:18,533
They have incredible resources.
626
00:35:18,616 --> 00:35:21,786
They spent an inordinate amount of time
627
00:35:22,703 --> 00:35:25,331
and did a character-driven column.
628
00:35:25,832 --> 00:35:27,333
It was a bombshell.
629
00:35:28,751 --> 00:35:31,003
[Perdue] I had left Pornhub at that point,
630
00:35:31,087 --> 00:35:33,422
but I still work vaguely in the industry,
631
00:35:33,506 --> 00:35:35,258
so obviously, I saw the article.
632
00:35:35,883 --> 00:35:39,679
It was everywhere.
It was shared with everyone.
633
00:35:39,762 --> 00:35:41,681
Dozens of people sent it to me.
634
00:35:44,183 --> 00:35:48,437
I remember seeing
this Twitter kerfuffle on my phone
635
00:35:48,521 --> 00:35:51,524
and all the people
talking about this article
636
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:55,528
and then all the people responding,
saying like, "This is bullshit."
637
00:35:57,405 --> 00:35:59,824
[Dreams] I just thought of it
as another attack.
638
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:04,745
You know, I have so many attacks,
personally, that I'm like,
639
00:36:04,829 --> 00:36:09,000
"I can't take on that attack right now.
Let me handle my own stuff first."
640
00:36:10,751 --> 00:36:15,381
[DeVille] It's a nightmare for us
because when you present
641
00:36:15,464 --> 00:36:18,718
two unrelated things
as being closely related
642
00:36:18,801 --> 00:36:21,554
in a paper that everyone's
going to believe,
643
00:36:22,138 --> 00:36:23,055
what happens?
644
00:36:23,139 --> 00:36:27,560
Well, exactly what you think would happen.
And exactly what did happen.
645
00:36:28,144 --> 00:36:29,520
[music intensifies]
646
00:36:30,271 --> 00:36:33,149
[DeVille] The public sees it,
and they are outraged
647
00:36:33,232 --> 00:36:36,611
because it is outrageous,
and it is horrible,
648
00:36:36,694 --> 00:36:39,322
and it is something that nobody wants.
649
00:36:39,947 --> 00:36:41,532
And then they say,
650
00:36:41,616 --> 00:36:44,035
"That is trash,
and we need to eliminate it."
651
00:36:52,627 --> 00:36:55,213
[Akira] They neglect to see that
652
00:36:55,296 --> 00:37:00,301
sex work and sex trafficking
are two completely different things.
653
00:37:04,055 --> 00:37:07,391
Sex work, by definition,
is done with consent,
654
00:37:08,601 --> 00:37:11,312
and if it's not done with consent,
it's rape.
655
00:37:12,063 --> 00:37:14,065
It's illegal, it's, um...
656
00:37:15,107 --> 00:37:17,568
unethical, and that's not what we do.
657
00:37:19,403 --> 00:37:21,530
[Kristof] "I don't see any neat solution."
658
00:37:21,614 --> 00:37:23,282
"But aside from limiting immunity
659
00:37:23,366 --> 00:37:26,077
so that companies
are incentivized to behave better,
660
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,579
here are three steps that would help."
661
00:37:28,663 --> 00:37:32,583
"One. Allow only verified users
to post videos."
662
00:37:32,667 --> 00:37:34,919
"Two. Prohibit downloads."
663
00:37:35,586 --> 00:37:37,630
"Three. Increase moderation."
664
00:37:39,215 --> 00:37:43,344
"Siri Dahl, a prominent porn star
who does business with Pornhub,
665
00:37:43,427 --> 00:37:45,388
told me my three proposals are..."
666
00:37:45,471 --> 00:37:46,889
"Insanely reasonable."
667
00:37:48,307 --> 00:37:51,227
So Nick Kristof had contacted me
668
00:37:51,310 --> 00:37:54,313
asking for an interview about Pornhub.
669
00:37:55,356 --> 00:37:59,443
Ultimately, I told him everything
I know to be true that is my experience.
670
00:37:59,944 --> 00:38:01,904
I'm a survivor of abuse myself,
671
00:38:02,571 --> 00:38:05,658
um, which I told Nick Kristof
in our phone interview.
672
00:38:05,741 --> 00:38:10,329
I... told him about my own experience
with sexual abuse,
673
00:38:10,413 --> 00:38:13,332
which happened before
I was ever in the porn industry, and...
674
00:38:13,833 --> 00:38:16,919
I also communicated to him,
like, one of my favorite things
675
00:38:17,003 --> 00:38:21,674
about the industry that I work in
is the fact that we care about consent
676
00:38:21,757 --> 00:38:25,386
and the fact that
I have full bodily autonomy at all times
677
00:38:25,469 --> 00:38:26,469
in this industry.
678
00:38:26,512 --> 00:38:30,349
Like, there's no question in my mind
about that, and there never has been.
679
00:38:31,934 --> 00:38:34,353
One of the things
I was very clear with him about
680
00:38:34,437 --> 00:38:36,230
when he read those three steps is,
681
00:38:36,314 --> 00:38:39,942
"This is what people in the porn industry
have been asking for."
682
00:38:41,068 --> 00:38:43,195
But if we admit
that it's a moderation problem,
683
00:38:43,279 --> 00:38:46,574
then we have to admit it's a problem
that's Internet-wide, which it is.
684
00:38:46,657 --> 00:38:50,995
Because there's far more instances
of child sexual abuse material
685
00:38:51,078 --> 00:38:54,707
being reported on, like, Facebook
and mainstream social media
686
00:38:54,790 --> 00:38:57,251
than there is on actual porn websites.
687
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:02,340
[Kristof] "If PayPal can suspend
cooperation with Pornhub,
688
00:39:02,423 --> 00:39:05,593
so can American Express,
Mastercard, and Visa."
689
00:39:07,053 --> 00:39:09,847
[Dahl] And when he outlined those steps,
if he had said,
690
00:39:09,930 --> 00:39:12,516
"Do you think it's reasonable for Pornhub
691
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,102
to lose their ability
to process payments?"
692
00:39:15,186 --> 00:39:17,146
I would have been like, "No."
693
00:39:17,229 --> 00:39:20,399
'Cause it would be near impossible
694
00:39:20,483 --> 00:39:22,693
for someone to upload illegal content
695
00:39:22,777 --> 00:39:24,695
via a verified model account,
696
00:39:25,196 --> 00:39:28,366
which is the only way it would have
to be uploaded for them to sell it
697
00:39:28,949 --> 00:39:30,951
using the payment processing on Pornhub.
698
00:39:31,994 --> 00:39:34,121
So all it does is affect my ability
699
00:39:34,205 --> 00:39:37,124
and the ability of people
in my industry to make a living.
700
00:39:37,708 --> 00:39:39,126
[music intensifies]
701
00:39:43,631 --> 00:39:46,967
So Mastercard and Visa pulled their
processing from Pornhub.
702
00:39:51,972 --> 00:39:56,018
The idea that somebody was claiming,
"Oh, children are being sold on your site
703
00:39:56,102 --> 00:39:57,353
using credit cards,"
704
00:39:57,436 --> 00:39:59,397
for a global brand like that, was like,
705
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,233
"We can't be associated with this.
We can't have a whiff of this."
706
00:40:04,902 --> 00:40:08,030
[Patriquin] So Pornhub came out
and removed a bunch of content.
707
00:40:09,073 --> 00:40:13,369
Which is not to say that those videos
that they took down were non-consensual.
708
00:40:14,203 --> 00:40:16,497
The vast majority of cases
they probably weren't.
709
00:40:17,206 --> 00:40:19,667
But less content equals less profit.
710
00:40:20,543 --> 00:40:23,254
So, the fact that
they did that when they did it,
711
00:40:23,337 --> 00:40:25,589
suggests to me that
that's the nuclear option.
712
00:40:25,673 --> 00:40:28,300
You get rid of this stuff
when it's absolutely necessary.
713
00:40:28,384 --> 00:40:31,220
Before then, let it ride
'cause we're making money on it.
714
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,271
[Stabile] In some ways,
they took on the wrong company.
715
00:40:40,354 --> 00:40:44,066
Pornhub doesn't actually sell a whole lot
of content directly on its site.
716
00:40:44,859 --> 00:40:46,735
Most of the money that Pornhub made
717
00:40:46,819 --> 00:40:49,738
came from banner advertising
or affiliate sales,
718
00:40:49,822 --> 00:40:53,075
neither of which require
a credit card to operate on the platform.
719
00:40:53,742 --> 00:40:56,620
So the people who really got hurt
were individual performers.
720
00:40:56,704 --> 00:40:58,873
The small people
selling direct to the consumers
721
00:40:58,956 --> 00:41:00,624
because that's where the consumers were.
722
00:41:02,251 --> 00:41:06,672
Porn performers like me
depend on platforms like Pornhub to pay...
723
00:41:06,755 --> 00:41:08,883
You're taking food out of people's mouths.
724
00:41:08,966 --> 00:41:11,469
This is how people pay their rent
and pay their bills.
725
00:41:11,552 --> 00:41:15,556
Mastercard pulling payment processing
from Pornhub is not helping one victim.
726
00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:17,701
...terrified that they're gonna do this
to other sites...
727
00:41:17,725 --> 00:41:20,853
...should have a right
to post online and exist online.
728
00:41:20,936 --> 00:41:22,146
Please listen to us.
729
00:41:22,229 --> 00:41:23,957
We need to support sex workers.
We need to...
730
00:41:23,981 --> 00:41:26,484
People that are uploading
child pornography
731
00:41:26,567 --> 00:41:29,111
are not content creators.
732
00:41:29,195 --> 00:41:31,197
[clamor of performers]
733
00:41:42,082 --> 00:41:47,254
[woman] I got hired
at MindGeek in August 2019,
734
00:41:47,338 --> 00:41:51,967
and I transitioned
to a role in HR in 2020.
735
00:41:53,636 --> 00:41:57,806
The article came to my attention,
when I went to work "virtually" that day,
736
00:41:57,890 --> 00:41:59,767
um, everybody was talking about it.
737
00:42:00,309 --> 00:42:02,102
Um, and...
738
00:42:04,772 --> 00:42:07,149
I just remember wondering,
739
00:42:08,692 --> 00:42:10,236
"How much of it is true?"
740
00:42:10,319 --> 00:42:11,570
But, um,
741
00:42:12,571 --> 00:42:14,532
there was really no way for me to know.
742
00:42:14,615 --> 00:42:16,200
[somber music playing]
743
00:42:18,327 --> 00:42:22,498
[Burgoyne] I was pretty reliant on what
management was willing to say about it,
744
00:42:22,581 --> 00:42:24,124
and it wasn't a whole lot.
745
00:42:25,167 --> 00:42:27,294
All we were told was, "None of it's true."
746
00:42:28,254 --> 00:42:30,756
But it's this big article
in The New York Times,
747
00:42:30,839 --> 00:42:33,425
and it's very hard
to reconcile those things.
748
00:42:35,135 --> 00:42:39,056
But I think what they were really
responding to was the tone of the article.
749
00:42:39,139 --> 00:42:41,141
How it was so accusatory
750
00:42:41,225 --> 00:42:44,770
and painting them
like they were doing it on purpose.
751
00:42:45,729 --> 00:42:47,439
That was really the part that they
752
00:42:48,232 --> 00:42:49,232
minded.
753
00:42:49,858 --> 00:42:53,362
And that was really a shame
because I think it would have been better
754
00:42:53,445 --> 00:42:55,573
in that moment to give some guidance.
755
00:42:57,199 --> 00:42:58,867
But I think they were hoping that
756
00:42:58,951 --> 00:43:01,579
everything was gonna
calm down and blow over.
757
00:43:01,662 --> 00:43:05,040
Especially the big move
bringing down all of that content.
758
00:43:05,583 --> 00:43:07,918
Suddenly everybody
was just super stressed out.
759
00:43:08,752 --> 00:43:11,755
[anchor] The website Pornhub
is promising to take action.
760
00:43:11,839 --> 00:43:16,677
The first change includes allowing
only verified users to upload content.
761
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,556
Secondly, they will ban
downloading videos from the site,
762
00:43:20,639 --> 00:43:23,642
and the third is to add more moderation.
763
00:43:25,352 --> 00:43:28,230
[Burgoyne] So in January,
they started to make some moves
764
00:43:28,314 --> 00:43:31,692
and tried to diminish
the number of people on staff.
765
00:43:34,903 --> 00:43:40,159
And in February, they went
to the hearing at the Canadian Parliament.
766
00:43:40,242 --> 00:43:41,660
[tense music playing]
767
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:47,249
[music fades out]
768
00:43:49,585 --> 00:43:52,254
[lo-fi piano music playing]
769
00:43:54,089 --> 00:43:57,009
Today's meeting is televised
and will be made available
770
00:43:57,092 --> 00:43:58,761
via the House of Commons website.
771
00:43:58,844 --> 00:44:00,846
Now pursuant to the motion adopted
772
00:44:00,929 --> 00:44:04,600
by the committee
on Friday, December 11th, 2020,
773
00:44:04,683 --> 00:44:07,936
the committee is resuming its study
on the protection of privacy
774
00:44:08,020 --> 00:44:10,522
and reputation on platforms
such as Pornhub.
775
00:44:10,606 --> 00:44:13,651
[Patriquin] So the parliamentary hearings
were held in winter 2021,
776
00:44:13,734 --> 00:44:18,530
looking into issues of privacy
around companies like MindGeek.
777
00:44:18,614 --> 00:44:21,992
Basically, looking into MindGeek
because MindGeek's Canadian,
778
00:44:22,076 --> 00:44:24,036
and "What the hell's going on?"
779
00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:26,872
Good afternoon. My name is Feras Antoon.
780
00:44:26,955 --> 00:44:31,293
I'm the chief executive officer
of Les Entreprises MindGeek Canada.
781
00:44:31,377 --> 00:44:34,963
With me is David Tassillo,
chief operations officer,
782
00:44:35,047 --> 00:44:36,256
and Corey Urman,
783
00:44:36,340 --> 00:44:39,593
vice president of product management,
video-sharing platform.
784
00:44:40,344 --> 00:44:43,847
As a leader in this industry,
we share the committee's concern
785
00:44:43,931 --> 00:44:46,392
about the spread
of unlawful content online
786
00:44:46,892 --> 00:44:49,937
and about the non-consensual sharing
of intimate images.
787
00:44:50,437 --> 00:44:54,900
It goes against everything we stand for
at MindGeek and Pornhub.
788
00:44:55,693 --> 00:44:58,696
So on December 14th,
789
00:44:58,779 --> 00:45:01,699
80% of your content
came down from your site.
790
00:45:01,782 --> 00:45:02,782
Is that correct?
791
00:45:03,409 --> 00:45:05,160
Uh, I don't know about 80%,
792
00:45:05,244 --> 00:45:09,289
but yes, a large portion
of unverified-user-uploaded content
793
00:45:09,373 --> 00:45:10,373
was removed.
794
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,210
Illegal content?
795
00:45:13,293 --> 00:45:16,338
No. I said unverified uploaders.
796
00:45:16,422 --> 00:45:20,342
That's the... We only have content today
from verified uploaders.
797
00:45:20,426 --> 00:45:22,886
The content we removed
is because we do not have...
798
00:45:22,970 --> 00:45:25,431
It was uploaded by people
who were not verified.
799
00:45:26,014 --> 00:45:30,060
Do you have a specific number
on the amount of content that was removed?
800
00:45:31,353 --> 00:45:32,521
[Antoon] I would s...
801
00:45:32,604 --> 00:45:34,940
It's in the ballpark
of nine to ten million.
802
00:45:35,023 --> 00:45:38,444
And we're making it so that
we want everyone that uploads to our site
803
00:45:38,944 --> 00:45:41,321
to basically have a...
We want to have ID on them,
804
00:45:41,405 --> 00:45:44,783
so we know who they are,
so we can add further deterrents
805
00:45:44,867 --> 00:45:47,411
to them doing illegal activity,
and we hope
806
00:45:47,494 --> 00:45:49,705
people that are providing
adult entertainment
807
00:45:49,788 --> 00:45:53,333
and any form of entertainment
for people in the world follow our lead.
808
00:45:54,126 --> 00:45:57,796
Has MindGeek or any of its
at least 48 subsidiaries
809
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,341
ever monetized child sexual abuse
and non-consensual material?
810
00:46:01,842 --> 00:46:05,012
Our standards are very clear.
We won't allow anything to do with CSAM.
811
00:46:05,095 --> 00:46:06,972
We want nothing to do with non-consensual.
812
00:46:07,055 --> 00:46:10,434
It is possible that people
committing crimes
813
00:46:10,517 --> 00:46:12,853
are able to circumvent our systems,
814
00:46:12,936 --> 00:46:16,482
similar to security on a home
or security at a bank.
815
00:46:16,565 --> 00:46:19,943
You put multiple levels of security
in place and deterrents in place,
816
00:46:20,027 --> 00:46:24,114
but if a criminal wants to commit a crime,
they will try and circumvent the system.
817
00:46:24,198 --> 00:46:27,576
We are constantly adding new systems
and better systems
818
00:46:27,659 --> 00:46:29,495
and trying to further it,
819
00:46:29,578 --> 00:46:31,538
to not only deter but to stop.
820
00:46:31,622 --> 00:46:34,208
This has been a constant evolution
in our company.
821
00:46:34,291 --> 00:46:38,212
We were, um... had human moderation
available on our sites
822
00:46:38,295 --> 00:46:41,215
when it was a word that wasn't even...
It didn't even exist.
823
00:46:41,298 --> 00:46:45,093
When Facebook and any of the other
main platforms in the world never used it.
824
00:46:45,177 --> 00:46:48,430
These were all things that we started.
We weren't public about it,
825
00:46:48,514 --> 00:46:50,516
but these are things we did
since the beginning.
826
00:46:52,518 --> 00:46:54,853
[Perdue] There were moderators.
827
00:46:55,604 --> 00:46:57,898
I don't really know how that worked.
828
00:46:57,981 --> 00:47:00,442
I know that there was
829
00:47:01,276 --> 00:47:05,239
more content being uploaded onto the site,
so I actually can't talk, really.
830
00:47:05,322 --> 00:47:08,325
This is really getting into
shady legal territory for me here.
831
00:47:08,408 --> 00:47:09,701
- [interviewer] Okay.
- Um...
832
00:47:11,245 --> 00:47:15,457
[interviewer] To start,
can you just tell me why you've decided
833
00:47:15,541 --> 00:47:17,084
to share your story?
834
00:47:18,043 --> 00:47:19,419
[voice disguised] Oh, uh...
835
00:47:20,337 --> 00:47:22,923
I think the company could have done more
836
00:47:23,006 --> 00:47:24,508
to prevent certain things
837
00:47:25,259 --> 00:47:26,593
and chose not to.
838
00:47:27,469 --> 00:47:32,182
And only really changed
some things after it got in trouble.
839
00:47:32,683 --> 00:47:34,935
[tense electronic music playing]
840
00:47:36,854 --> 00:47:40,607
[voice disguised] I was a moderator.
I worked for less than two years.
841
00:47:41,108 --> 00:47:44,403
Some of the moderation happened in Canada.
842
00:47:44,486 --> 00:47:46,613
Most of it happened in Cyprus.
843
00:47:47,865 --> 00:47:50,826
When I worked there,
there was a little over 30 moderators.
844
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,415
Every moderator had to review,
um, 700 videos per day,
845
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,042
but it was expected for us to do more.
846
00:48:00,210 --> 00:48:02,480
[Pinter] Each of these moderators
were tasked with viewing
847
00:48:02,504 --> 00:48:06,091
800 to 1,000 videos per eight-hour shift.
848
00:48:06,174 --> 00:48:08,677
And that's impossible.
849
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,763
So, of course, they were fast-forwarding,
skipping through.
850
00:48:11,847 --> 00:48:14,975
No sound, which is key because sometimes
851
00:48:15,058 --> 00:48:19,062
the women and... or children
in the video are crying, yelling,
852
00:48:19,146 --> 00:48:22,524
saying, "No," saying, "Stop,"
and they're not catching any of that.
853
00:48:23,567 --> 00:48:26,612
[moderator] We were scrubbing
through videos as fast as we could.
854
00:48:30,908 --> 00:48:35,287
Even if we thought
that we were being diligent with our work,
855
00:48:35,370 --> 00:48:37,956
we would still miss a few videos
every now and then.
856
00:48:38,999 --> 00:48:43,045
[Pinter] They proudly boasted
that every single video is reviewed.
857
00:48:43,128 --> 00:48:45,589
But, to put it in perspective,
858
00:48:45,672 --> 00:48:49,176
Pornhub has traffic similar
to these big social media websites.
859
00:48:49,259 --> 00:48:53,305
Ninth, you know, most-trafficked website
in the world, conservatively.
860
00:48:53,388 --> 00:48:55,682
Facebook had 15,000 moderators,
861
00:48:55,766 --> 00:48:59,603
and that was for a site
that isn't primarily centered
862
00:48:59,686 --> 00:49:01,688
around sexually explicit content, right?
863
00:49:02,272 --> 00:49:06,276
And they still have 15,000 moderators who,
we find out, are very overwhelmed.
864
00:49:07,277 --> 00:49:10,322
[moderator] I can't really tell
from a video the age of somebody.
865
00:49:10,822 --> 00:49:14,785
It's a really hard thing to determine
if a 17 year old is more than 18.
866
00:49:15,285 --> 00:49:17,621
They could be 14 or they could be 19.
867
00:49:17,704 --> 00:49:19,915
Basically, we would just guess,
868
00:49:19,998 --> 00:49:23,460
then my manager would decide
if the video would be
869
00:49:23,543 --> 00:49:27,464
taken down for good
or if it will go live again.
870
00:49:28,298 --> 00:49:30,717
The rules constantly changed.
871
00:49:42,479 --> 00:49:45,983
[woman] When you're operating a business
like a pornography website,
872
00:49:46,692 --> 00:49:51,613
you just have to have incredibly stringent
compliance, content moderation,
873
00:49:51,697 --> 00:49:54,658
and user restrictions involved in that.
874
00:49:54,741 --> 00:49:58,120
I can't overstate that enough,
especially when it's an online business.
875
00:50:00,122 --> 00:50:03,208
So NCMEC is a private,
nonprofit organization.
876
00:50:03,291 --> 00:50:07,087
We have a very basic mission,
which is to help find missing children,
877
00:50:07,170 --> 00:50:10,799
reduce child sexual exploitation,
and prevent child victimization.
878
00:50:10,882 --> 00:50:12,718
[keyboard clattering]
879
00:50:12,801 --> 00:50:16,096
We've a lot of companies
and nonprofit organizations
880
00:50:16,179 --> 00:50:17,347
that report to us.
881
00:50:17,431 --> 00:50:20,976
So a survivor very well might be
working with an organization
882
00:50:21,059 --> 00:50:26,106
and say, "My image, my video,
is here, on Pornhub, on another website."
883
00:50:26,189 --> 00:50:30,819
And we would facilitate that nonprofit
making a report on that incident
884
00:50:30,902 --> 00:50:33,989
on behalf of the client or survivor
that they're working with.
885
00:50:36,825 --> 00:50:40,370
[Pinter] So a survivor came to us
with what happened to her.
886
00:50:41,079 --> 00:50:44,750
She went on a date
with someone who was much older.
887
00:50:44,833 --> 00:50:45,917
She was a minor.
888
00:50:46,418 --> 00:50:49,755
He drugged and raped her and filmed her.
889
00:50:50,922 --> 00:50:54,342
And the next thing you know,
the video is on Pornhub.
890
00:50:56,094 --> 00:50:59,389
She requested multiple times
over the years to have it removed.
891
00:51:00,807 --> 00:51:02,517
But the whistleblower we spoke to
892
00:51:02,601 --> 00:51:06,229
actually said that they would have
a backlog of, like, six months.
893
00:51:07,856 --> 00:51:10,317
[moderator] We have thousands
of take-down requests.
894
00:51:10,817 --> 00:51:13,195
We don't really go through them in time.
895
00:51:14,237 --> 00:51:16,948
Many videos that
should have been taken down
896
00:51:17,032 --> 00:51:18,450
stayed up for months.
897
00:51:20,911 --> 00:51:24,664
[Souras] So there is a US law
that requires online companies
898
00:51:24,748 --> 00:51:27,250
that are defined
as an electronic service provider
899
00:51:27,334 --> 00:51:29,961
to report apparent
child pornography to NCMEC
900
00:51:30,045 --> 00:51:33,173
when they become
aware of it on their platform.
901
00:51:34,007 --> 00:51:37,719
There are over 1400 companies
registered with NCMEC.
902
00:51:37,803 --> 00:51:43,725
From Microsoft, to Facebook, to Google,
to Dropbox, to Snapchat, to Twitter,
903
00:51:43,809 --> 00:51:46,228
all of these companies
are registered with NCMEC.
904
00:51:47,229 --> 00:51:51,608
And MindGeek registered
to report to NCMEC in March 2020.
905
00:51:52,317 --> 00:51:56,071
But the reporting statute
only applies to US companies.
906
00:51:56,154 --> 00:52:00,033
So international companies
have no obligation to register with NCMEC,
907
00:52:00,117 --> 00:52:03,453
to report child sexual abuse, uh, material
908
00:52:03,537 --> 00:52:07,124
to our CyberTipline or to have
any involvement with us whatsoever.
909
00:52:08,708 --> 00:52:12,379
[Pinter] What Pornhub would do
when NCMEC would request a takedown is...
910
00:52:12,462 --> 00:52:15,173
In any other circumstance,
if child pornography was on a website,
911
00:52:15,257 --> 00:52:17,634
and the website was alerted,
and they took it down,
912
00:52:17,717 --> 00:52:21,346
and you tried to go to that link,
to that exact web address,
913
00:52:21,429 --> 00:52:25,642
it either wouldn't be there or it'd say,
"Page doesn't exist" or "Error."
914
00:52:26,226 --> 00:52:29,604
For Pornhub,
you would see the entire page.
915
00:52:30,438 --> 00:52:34,109
The video would just be disabled,
and it would have a message that says,
916
00:52:34,192 --> 00:52:36,528
"Video is removed
at the request of NCMEC."
917
00:52:37,070 --> 00:52:39,197
But all the metadata would be there.
918
00:52:39,281 --> 00:52:42,617
So you would see the title, the history
of all the comments over the years,
919
00:52:42,701 --> 00:52:47,038
you'd see how many views it had,
and you would see related videos.
920
00:52:48,290 --> 00:52:53,503
So, "Oh, you were searching
for this young, abused teen video?"
921
00:52:53,587 --> 00:52:55,755
"Well, unfortunately,
this was removed by NCMEC,
922
00:52:55,839 --> 00:52:58,758
but don't worry,
we have all of these similar videos."
923
00:52:58,842 --> 00:53:02,220
And so, not only
would they keep people on their site,
924
00:53:02,304 --> 00:53:06,349
but that would still be generating data
and hits on all those terms and keywords.
925
00:53:06,433 --> 00:53:10,353
So they lost nothing
in terms of SEO by removing that.
926
00:53:10,437 --> 00:53:13,899
So they're actually still profiting
from this known child pornography
927
00:53:13,982 --> 00:53:15,734
even when they disable the video.
928
00:53:15,817 --> 00:53:19,446
And all the while,
it's being distributed to the masses,
929
00:53:19,529 --> 00:53:21,281
never to be removed again.
930
00:53:21,364 --> 00:53:23,074
Because that's the truth.
931
00:53:23,158 --> 00:53:26,161
Once this is on the Internet,
it's almost impossible to remove.
932
00:53:26,661 --> 00:53:30,415
These websites face no accountability,
no requirements.
933
00:53:30,916 --> 00:53:33,168
They are not motivated to remove content,
934
00:53:33,251 --> 00:53:36,087
and so even if
you get some websites to remove,
935
00:53:36,171 --> 00:53:37,923
others are going to distribute it.
936
00:53:42,135 --> 00:53:46,097
Serena, thank you so much for being
willing to come to our committee
937
00:53:46,181 --> 00:53:47,515
and to tell your story.
938
00:53:47,599 --> 00:53:49,309
Uh, we'll start with you.
939
00:53:49,392 --> 00:53:52,646
I... I had messaged Pornhub
to get the video taken down.
940
00:53:52,729 --> 00:53:54,439
I pretended to be my mother.
941
00:53:55,065 --> 00:53:58,610
And I said, "Hey, this is my daughter.
She's only 14 now."
942
00:53:58,693 --> 00:54:02,489
"Uh, this is child pornography.
Please take this down."
943
00:54:03,323 --> 00:54:07,535
And they, you know, they wrote...
It took like a week or two to respond,
944
00:54:07,619 --> 00:54:11,665
and then once they finally responded,
they're like, "Okay, we'll take it down."
945
00:54:11,748 --> 00:54:13,917
And then proceeded
to wait another two weeks
946
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:15,877
before they finally did take it down.
947
00:54:16,419 --> 00:54:21,383
And, um, doing my research,
I was told that, uh,
948
00:54:21,466 --> 00:54:23,218
that they had a system in place
949
00:54:23,301 --> 00:54:26,721
that when a video was labeled
as "child pornography" on their site,
950
00:54:26,805 --> 00:54:28,807
that it was, like, flagged and tagged
951
00:54:28,890 --> 00:54:31,184
and that it could
no longer be re-uploaded.
952
00:54:31,810 --> 00:54:34,104
Um, but of course, that wasn't true
953
00:54:34,187 --> 00:54:36,481
because a week after
it had been taken down,
954
00:54:36,564 --> 00:54:38,358
it had been re-uploaded again.
955
00:54:38,900 --> 00:54:42,570
And it'd always be uploaded
over and over and over again.
956
00:54:42,654 --> 00:54:44,906
No matter how many times
I got it taken down,
957
00:54:44,990 --> 00:54:46,449
it'd be right back up again.
958
00:54:48,785 --> 00:54:52,539
[sniffs] So that was the whole reason
I ended up reaching out to Mike.
959
00:54:54,082 --> 00:54:57,585
Thank you. Um... I'll just introduce myself
briefly to the committee.
960
00:54:57,669 --> 00:54:58,920
My name is Michael Bowe.
961
00:54:59,004 --> 00:55:03,300
Uh, I'm a partner in Manhattan
at the law firm of Brown Rudnick.
962
00:55:03,383 --> 00:55:04,843
[dramatic music playing]
963
00:55:04,926 --> 00:55:08,388
[anchor] More than 30 women
have filed a lawsuit against Pornhub.
964
00:55:08,471 --> 00:55:10,557
The women are accusing the adult website
965
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:14,769
of running a "criminal enterprise"
and exploiting them for profit.
966
00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:19,357
[continues via phone] Lawyer Michael Bowe
represents the women taking on MindGeek.
967
00:55:19,441 --> 00:55:23,069
He spent the past year
building a civil case against the company,
968
00:55:23,153 --> 00:55:24,654
citing racketeering laws
969
00:55:24,738 --> 00:55:27,824
ordinarily reserved for mobsters
and drug gangs.
970
00:55:27,907 --> 00:55:31,036
[Bowe] This is an organization
that deals with legitimate porn,
971
00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:33,288
of which there is a...
You can make a fortune.
972
00:55:33,830 --> 00:55:35,623
Uh, but that wasn't enough.
973
00:55:35,707 --> 00:55:37,709
They incorporated into that business
974
00:55:37,792 --> 00:55:41,713
child porn, trafficked porn,
rape videos... To make money.
975
00:55:44,758 --> 00:55:48,178
So today, we sued the owners of MindGeek,
and we sued the executives.
976
00:55:48,970 --> 00:55:51,765
And if executives like that
end up going to jail,
977
00:55:51,848 --> 00:55:54,059
and end up having to pay big judgments,
978
00:55:54,934 --> 00:55:56,895
that will make a big difference.
979
00:55:59,064 --> 00:56:03,026
So our goal
is to incentivize the adult industry
980
00:56:03,109 --> 00:56:05,320
to only sell legitimate product.
981
00:56:06,071 --> 00:56:09,240
[interviewer] Is this a moment
of reckoning for the online porn industry?
982
00:56:09,324 --> 00:56:12,494
This industry is going to get cleaned up.
983
00:56:12,577 --> 00:56:13,703
[phone rings]
984
00:56:14,371 --> 00:56:15,497
Hello, Mike Bowe.
985
00:56:15,580 --> 00:56:17,499
Hello. Hello.
986
00:56:17,582 --> 00:56:20,377
And did they get taken down,
or are they still up there?
987
00:56:20,460 --> 00:56:22,295
We'll call you back within the week.
988
00:56:22,837 --> 00:56:24,547
[music continues]
989
00:56:27,842 --> 00:56:31,179
- [interviewer] Another one?
- Yeah. It's a tough one. It's a mother.
990
00:56:32,472 --> 00:56:37,185
You know, this advocate Laila Mickelwait,
who was like a one-woman wrecking crew,
991
00:56:37,268 --> 00:56:38,812
it was her and a Twitter feed.
992
00:56:38,895 --> 00:56:40,230
[all] Shut it down!
993
00:56:40,313 --> 00:56:43,525
[Bowe] She just started
tweeting stuff out and, you know,
994
00:56:43,608 --> 00:56:45,110
she was this force of nature.
995
00:56:45,735 --> 00:56:47,362
We worked with her a little bit.
996
00:56:48,071 --> 00:56:49,781
We did our own investigation.
997
00:56:50,448 --> 00:56:52,450
And we put together a case.
998
00:56:53,618 --> 00:56:54,869
[music fades out]
999
00:56:58,039 --> 00:56:59,374
[tense music playing]
1000
00:57:04,421 --> 00:57:05,839
"Monsanto of porn."
1001
00:57:09,008 --> 00:57:11,636
"MindGeek's racketeering enterprise."
1002
00:57:12,220 --> 00:57:14,055
"It's just like The Sopranos."
1003
00:57:15,306 --> 00:57:18,017
[Stabile] "Appropriately dubbed,
'The Monsanto of Porn, '
1004
00:57:18,101 --> 00:57:20,270
MindGeek is a classic criminal enterprise
1005
00:57:20,353 --> 00:57:22,522
carried out through
wide-ranging criminal activities,
1006
00:57:22,605 --> 00:57:24,274
including but not limited to..."
1007
00:57:24,357 --> 00:57:26,651
[Perdue] "...human trafficking,
child pornography,
1008
00:57:26,734 --> 00:57:28,820
criminal copyright piracy..."
1009
00:57:28,903 --> 00:57:31,990
[Adora] "...Internet hacking,
stalking, and doxing..."
1010
00:57:32,073 --> 00:57:35,869
"...blackmail and extortion,
mail and wire fraud, embezzlement..."
1011
00:57:35,952 --> 00:57:39,080
[Stabile] "...bank and creditor fraud,
tax evasion, and money laundering."
1012
00:57:39,164 --> 00:57:40,915
"The company's top management
1013
00:57:40,999 --> 00:57:44,419
and shadowy international financiers
and their investors are the..."
1014
00:57:44,502 --> 00:57:49,591
[Perdue] "...'bosses' of this enterprise
and, together with their 'capos, '
1015
00:57:49,674 --> 00:57:53,052
run its rackets and schemes."
1016
00:57:59,392 --> 00:58:01,394
[Bowe] It's a racketeering case.
1017
00:58:01,478 --> 00:58:05,815
So if you think about The Sopranos.
You know, you have a boss who's in charge,
1018
00:58:05,899 --> 00:58:07,942
but he doesn't go out
and do the dirty work,
1019
00:58:08,026 --> 00:58:10,278
he's just the boss, and he's got capos,
1020
00:58:10,361 --> 00:58:14,115
and they got soldiers, and there's just,
sort of, other people who...
1021
00:58:14,199 --> 00:58:17,243
and the people who do the dirty work
really aren't the boss,
1022
00:58:17,327 --> 00:58:18,912
but everyone kicks up to the boss.
1023
00:58:18,995 --> 00:58:22,248
And so, here you have MindGeek
1024
00:58:22,332 --> 00:58:27,337
that has this amalgam of people
who work for them,
1025
00:58:27,420 --> 00:58:30,548
contract for them,
they're performers, or they're writers,
1026
00:58:31,925 --> 00:58:33,259
they do work together.
1027
00:58:34,135 --> 00:58:36,429
And you're able to prove
they do their business
1028
00:58:36,513 --> 00:58:40,600
through these racketeering activities,
then everybody who's in the enterprise
1029
00:58:41,601 --> 00:58:43,353
is equally culpable.
1030
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,276
"Over the course of the next year,
MindGeek's press relations
1031
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:51,903
and social media organization
1032
00:58:51,986 --> 00:58:55,657
would aggressively disseminate
gross disinformation."
1033
00:58:55,740 --> 00:58:59,702
"This campaign included
numerous MindGeek Pornhub models,
1034
00:58:59,786 --> 00:59:03,831
including Gwen Adora
and its brand ambassador, Asa Akira,
1035
00:59:03,915 --> 00:59:07,418
who were instructed
via direct messages on Pornhub's website
1036
00:59:07,502 --> 00:59:12,048
and provided with talking points
to disseminate MindGeek's disinformation."
1037
00:59:12,131 --> 00:59:15,176
"In return for participating
in this disinformation campaign,
1038
00:59:15,260 --> 00:59:19,180
these agents of MindGeek were rewarded
with supplemental compensation
1039
00:59:19,264 --> 00:59:21,724
and better promotion
on the MindGeek platform."
1040
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:25,019
[interviewer] What is this?
1041
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:26,604
Absolute bullshit.
1042
00:59:27,272 --> 00:59:28,523
That's... That is
1043
00:59:29,107 --> 00:59:30,733
absolute lies.
1044
00:59:30,817 --> 00:59:31,651
All of it.
1045
00:59:31,734 --> 00:59:36,698
That is a portion of the racketeering
lawsuit against Pornhub.
1046
00:59:37,824 --> 00:59:40,618
[interviewer] And...
why are you named in it?
1047
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:44,747
[scoffs] Good question.
1048
00:59:46,624 --> 00:59:50,670
Um, I was a model
who was vocal to the press
1049
00:59:50,753 --> 00:59:52,171
and on my own social media
1050
00:59:53,172 --> 00:59:56,134
about the misinformation
1051
00:59:56,217 --> 01:00:00,513
that the organization
who has compiled this is trying to spread.
1052
01:00:00,597 --> 01:00:02,015
So I was named,
1053
01:00:02,098 --> 01:00:06,060
saying that my information
was misinformation.
1054
01:00:06,144 --> 01:00:07,937
[retro electronic music playing]
1055
01:00:08,021 --> 01:00:10,857
[Adora] I was not hired
by Pornhub to defend them.
1056
01:00:11,649 --> 01:00:14,569
When I spoke to the media,
I was worried that Pornhub
1057
01:00:14,652 --> 01:00:16,571
wasn't gonna be h... happy with that.
1058
01:00:16,654 --> 01:00:20,241
Like, I didn't know if they'd be okay
with me, like, going off on my own
1059
01:00:20,325 --> 01:00:22,660
and, like, saying what I needed to say.
1060
01:00:25,163 --> 01:00:27,749
[Stabile] "Social media optimization, SMO,
1061
01:00:27,832 --> 01:00:30,209
was also an integral part
of its enterprise."
1062
01:00:30,293 --> 01:00:34,380
"As part of this SMO, MindGeek used
its extensive control and influence
1063
01:00:34,464 --> 01:00:37,884
over all aspects of the new
online porn industry that it dominated
1064
01:00:37,967 --> 01:00:40,303
to mount powerful
public messaging campaigns
1065
01:00:40,386 --> 01:00:42,096
when it felt it necessary."
1066
01:00:42,180 --> 01:00:44,682
"This network included
public interest non-for-profits
1067
01:00:44,766 --> 01:00:46,059
like the Free Speech Coalition,
1068
01:00:46,142 --> 01:00:48,519
which received substantial support
from MindGeek
1069
01:00:48,603 --> 01:00:52,982
and was called by the industry
and MindGeek insiders its 'lobbying arm.'"
1070
01:00:53,691 --> 01:00:56,903
MindGeek is a significant contributing
member of the Free Speech Coalition,
1071
01:00:56,986 --> 01:01:01,491
but prior to the Pornhub article,
I'd never spoken to anybody
1072
01:01:01,574 --> 01:01:04,577
from MindGeek's communications team.
I didn't know who they were.
1073
01:01:08,122 --> 01:01:10,792
It's one thing to say,
"Oh, we have evidence,"
1074
01:01:10,875 --> 01:01:13,836
or "This thing happened,
and this is an example of what it meant."
1075
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,923
But as far as I can tell,
the only existence of these claims
1076
01:01:17,006 --> 01:01:18,716
are actually in the lawsuit.
1077
01:01:19,300 --> 01:01:21,803
Most of it is hearsay
and secondhand information
1078
01:01:21,886 --> 01:01:23,763
or something that's not sourced at all.
1079
01:01:23,846 --> 01:01:25,515
They're just making endless claims.
1080
01:01:28,601 --> 01:01:31,688
[Burgoyne] "The enterprise's
paramount focus on secrecy
1081
01:01:31,771 --> 01:01:36,025
was reflected in the Bro Club's obsession
with suspected snitches."
1082
01:01:36,109 --> 01:01:38,903
"This ubiquitous 'Bro Club' term included,
1083
01:01:38,986 --> 01:01:41,239
not only those
who they suspected of speaking
1084
01:01:41,322 --> 01:01:43,616
outside the MindGeek organization,
1085
01:01:43,700 --> 01:01:46,411
but also those who spoke up
or objected internally."
1086
01:01:48,413 --> 01:01:50,915
"Even a suspicion
by a single Bro Club member
1087
01:01:50,998 --> 01:01:54,210
that an individual was a snitch
would not merely block their advancement
1088
01:01:54,293 --> 01:01:58,047
but ultimately result in them
being pushed out of the company entirely."
1089
01:01:58,548 --> 01:02:02,135
"Such individuals would either
be frozen out and elect to leave,
1090
01:02:02,218 --> 01:02:05,096
be set up to fail in staged assignments,
1091
01:02:05,179 --> 01:02:09,058
or simply be told that there was
a consensus that they should be let go
1092
01:02:09,142 --> 01:02:11,018
without any explanation as to why
1093
01:02:11,102 --> 01:02:12,270
or on whose word."
1094
01:02:14,147 --> 01:02:16,691
Well, this I can really relate to.
Uh... [scoffs]
1095
01:02:17,191 --> 01:02:20,153
I got the sense
that they smelled a snitch in me.
1096
01:02:21,195 --> 01:02:22,655
But I also think that I had...
1097
01:02:22,739 --> 01:02:24,907
if I hadn't been treated
the way that I had,
1098
01:02:25,783 --> 01:02:28,661
that I probably
wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.
1099
01:02:29,162 --> 01:02:30,955
[ethereal music playing]
1100
01:02:31,038 --> 01:02:33,541
Obviously, having non-consensual material
1101
01:02:33,624 --> 01:02:37,003
uploaded onto a huge platform
is a violence in and of itself,
1102
01:02:37,086 --> 01:02:40,465
and I would never say otherwise
because that is truly
1103
01:02:41,048 --> 01:02:43,092
a horrifying thing on its own.
1104
01:02:44,093 --> 01:02:47,472
But these accusations
push all these performers,
1105
01:02:47,555 --> 01:02:50,057
and even me, like an ex-employee,
1106
01:02:50,141 --> 01:02:53,269
to feel like we have to defend it.
1107
01:02:54,145 --> 01:02:58,816
Because I know that Pornhub is being used
as shorthand for the entire porn industry.
1108
01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:01,277
And I... And I do wanna defend
the porn industry
1109
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,738
because I know that criticisms
1110
01:03:03,821 --> 01:03:06,699
ultimately end up
hurting performers the most.
1111
01:03:07,617 --> 01:03:09,202
So, when people say,
1112
01:03:09,285 --> 01:03:12,830
"Oh, well all these performers
are coming to the defense of Pornhub."
1113
01:03:12,914 --> 01:03:14,081
It's like, "Of course,"
1114
01:03:14,165 --> 01:03:18,085
because people are saying
that it's The Sopranos.
1115
01:03:18,169 --> 01:03:21,005
Like, what are you...
what are we supposed to say to that?
1116
01:03:21,088 --> 01:03:22,548
Of course that's ridiculous.
1117
01:03:25,676 --> 01:03:27,678
Miss Mickelwait, I... I... um...
1118
01:03:27,762 --> 01:03:31,432
S... Stuff with this committee,
new stuff happens every day,
1119
01:03:31,516 --> 01:03:34,852
stuff I've never, ever seen before
in the history of the committees
1120
01:03:34,936 --> 01:03:36,896
that I've been on for many, many years.
1121
01:03:36,979 --> 01:03:40,858
We got a letter today from...
Let's see, who did we get a letter from?
1122
01:03:40,942 --> 01:03:44,153
Feras Antoon and David Tassillo
wrote us a letter,
1123
01:03:44,237 --> 01:03:45,863
a personal letter about you.
1124
01:03:46,364 --> 01:03:49,992
Um, warning us that, uh, well, it's weird,
1125
01:03:50,076 --> 01:03:53,788
it's... it's about you, but then it's about
someone named Benjamin Nolot,
1126
01:03:53,871 --> 01:03:57,041
uh, who, uh,
they say is against legal pornography.
1127
01:03:57,124 --> 01:04:01,379
"Mr. Nolot is against same-sex marriage
and women's reproductive rights."
1128
01:04:01,462 --> 01:04:02,672
Um, anyways...
1129
01:04:04,173 --> 01:04:06,509
D'you have anything to say
about this letter we received
1130
01:04:06,592 --> 01:04:07,969
from the heads of MindGeek?
1131
01:04:09,136 --> 01:04:11,347
[Mickelwait] That's standard procedure
for them.
1132
01:04:11,430 --> 01:04:16,018
You know, the response of MindGeek
has been, uh, you know,
1133
01:04:16,102 --> 01:04:17,311
really inexcusable.
1134
01:04:17,895 --> 01:04:23,067
They have sought to call advocates,
who are speaking out about this, "liars."
1135
01:04:23,150 --> 01:04:25,486
They've called me personally
a liar many times.
1136
01:04:25,570 --> 01:04:27,613
That I was intentionally misleading.
1137
01:04:27,697 --> 01:04:29,740
Um, you know, they have harassed.
1138
01:04:29,824 --> 01:04:33,035
Instead of taking responsibility,
what they've done,
1139
01:04:33,119 --> 01:04:35,955
you know, for the past year
and beyond, is try to attack,
1140
01:04:36,038 --> 01:04:38,624
try to quiet, and to silence
1141
01:04:38,708 --> 01:04:41,127
those who are telling the truth
about their site,
1142
01:04:41,210 --> 01:04:42,712
and that is unacceptable.
1143
01:04:42,795 --> 01:04:45,756
And you say this is a case
of, um, them gaslighting you?
1144
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:48,843
Absolutely. Absolutely.
1145
01:04:51,637 --> 01:04:57,059
So Laila Mickelwait was
the director of abolition at Exodus Cry.
1146
01:04:57,143 --> 01:05:01,731
Abolition in terms of, "I want to abolish
the sex trade industry and pornography."
1147
01:05:03,065 --> 01:05:05,401
Exodus Cry is an anti-trafficking
organization
1148
01:05:06,027 --> 01:05:09,238
founded by Benjamin Nolot,
an Evangelical preacher.
1149
01:05:10,114 --> 01:05:14,285
And its goal is to end sex work entirely.
1150
01:05:15,036 --> 01:05:20,499
They make documentaries about
the decline of American sexual culture.
1151
01:05:22,460 --> 01:05:25,588
[man] Better show your fucking bags! Whoo!
1152
01:05:27,256 --> 01:05:29,508
[Perdue] To say that
fundamental Christian beliefs
1153
01:05:29,592 --> 01:05:32,970
are not at the root
of Exodus Cry's mandate
1154
01:05:33,054 --> 01:05:34,680
is just not accurate.
1155
01:05:35,264 --> 01:05:36,265
[chanting] Shut it down!
1156
01:05:36,349 --> 01:05:38,559
[Perdue] And it's also masking
where they're coming from
1157
01:05:38,643 --> 01:05:42,188
because it's pushing
this far-right Christian mandate
1158
01:05:42,271 --> 01:05:47,610
under this guise of "liberal,
save the women, save the children"
1159
01:05:47,693 --> 01:05:50,112
language, and it's been very effective.
1160
01:05:52,281 --> 01:05:54,742
[Stabile] NCOSE is another
anti-trafficking organization.
1161
01:05:54,825 --> 01:05:58,454
It's the latest iteration
of Morality in Media,
1162
01:05:58,537 --> 01:06:02,208
a faith-based organization
that goes back to the early '60s,
1163
01:06:02,291 --> 01:06:06,587
when they wanted to remove,
you know, smut, broadly defined,
1164
01:06:06,671 --> 01:06:07,880
from the public sphere.
1165
01:06:08,839 --> 01:06:11,968
Around 2015, they recalibrated,
1166
01:06:12,051 --> 01:06:14,303
and they rebranded themselves as
1167
01:06:14,387 --> 01:06:16,973
The National Center
on Sexual Exploitation,
1168
01:06:17,056 --> 01:06:18,808
and what they argued was,
1169
01:06:18,891 --> 01:06:22,687
"We are now fighting
sex trafficking and exploitation."
1170
01:06:24,271 --> 01:06:26,983
[DeVille] "Their new name
seems to have been chosen to,
1171
01:06:27,066 --> 01:06:30,194
one, borrow legitimacy from the unrelated
1172
01:06:30,277 --> 01:06:34,699
but sound-alike National Center
for Missing and Exploited Children,
1173
01:06:34,782 --> 01:06:39,120
a respected secular organization
with no anti-porn agenda."
1174
01:06:39,203 --> 01:06:40,705
"And the ploy worked."
1175
01:06:40,788 --> 01:06:43,082
"While mentions of morality in the media
1176
01:06:43,165 --> 01:06:45,167
often highlight
their religious background,
1177
01:06:45,251 --> 01:06:50,006
the same organization under the name NCOSE
1178
01:06:50,089 --> 01:06:54,010
is now routinely quoted
by mainstream journalists
1179
01:06:54,093 --> 01:06:58,055
without disclosing their origins,
agendas, or extremist views
1180
01:06:58,139 --> 01:07:00,933
about what constitutes
'hardcore pornography.'"
1181
01:07:01,017 --> 01:07:03,769
And just so the public knows,
1182
01:07:03,853 --> 01:07:05,396
Sports Illustrated to them
1183
01:07:05,479 --> 01:07:07,523
is hardcore pornography,
1184
01:07:07,606 --> 01:07:09,400
along with Cosmopolitan.
1185
01:07:10,985 --> 01:07:14,613
[Stabile] NCOSE releases
a "Dirty Dozen List" every year,
1186
01:07:14,697 --> 01:07:18,701
which is their top offenders
for what they call "exploitation."
1187
01:07:19,285 --> 01:07:23,581
The problem is that NCOSE believes
that all sexual content is exploitation,
1188
01:07:23,664 --> 01:07:27,293
and they believe
that pornography fuels sex trafficking.
1189
01:07:27,376 --> 01:07:29,837
Who is this, like, "they," you know? Uh...
1190
01:07:30,337 --> 01:07:33,507
Individuals who, you know, are worried
1191
01:07:33,591 --> 01:07:37,970
and who feel like their livelihoods
are threatened, I mean, I...
1192
01:07:38,054 --> 01:07:41,640
You know, I wish they knew
that I actually care about them.
1193
01:07:42,141 --> 01:07:45,770
That I think they've been exploited,
and that, of course,
1194
01:07:45,853 --> 01:07:49,565
I, like, think they're real people,
and I don't want them to be hurt.
1195
01:07:49,648 --> 01:07:53,402
I have absolutely no hard feelings
for them. So the fact that they might
1196
01:07:53,486 --> 01:07:56,906
think something about us
that isn't true doesn't bother me,
1197
01:07:56,989 --> 01:07:59,825
except that I just, you know,
I wish they knew the truth.
1198
01:08:02,369 --> 01:08:04,639
[Stabile] The interesting thing
about NCOSE and Exodus Cry
1199
01:08:04,663 --> 01:08:06,749
is that they don't provide exit services.
1200
01:08:07,374 --> 01:08:10,002
But if you want people
to exit the sex industry,
1201
01:08:10,086 --> 01:08:12,129
if you think that pornography is immoral
1202
01:08:12,213 --> 01:08:15,091
and exploitative,
and you don't think people should do it,
1203
01:08:15,174 --> 01:08:19,136
and you think that people are coerced
into doing it because they need the money,
1204
01:08:19,220 --> 01:08:21,097
well, help them with the money.
1205
01:08:21,180 --> 01:08:23,224
The blame really resides on Pornhub.
1206
01:08:23,307 --> 01:08:27,228
If MindGeek and Pornhub
hadn't completely destroyed
1207
01:08:27,311 --> 01:08:29,313
the market for individual creators
1208
01:08:29,396 --> 01:08:33,067
to create their own content
freely from their control,
1209
01:08:33,150 --> 01:08:35,861
then they wouldn't be
so dependent on MindGeek.
1210
01:08:35,945 --> 01:08:38,322
I can understand
why they would be frustrated,
1211
01:08:38,405 --> 01:08:43,369
but the reason that they're having
to cling to this horrific entity
1212
01:08:43,452 --> 01:08:46,372
is because they have made it...
That entity has made it so.
1213
01:08:46,455 --> 01:08:49,708
It's made them dependent on them
so that they will stick up for them.
1214
01:08:52,336 --> 01:08:55,172
[Perdue] General public opinion
about pornography,
1215
01:08:55,256 --> 01:08:56,799
ultimately does not harm
1216
01:08:56,882 --> 01:09:00,469
Pornhub executives' pockets.
It just doesn't.
1217
01:09:02,555 --> 01:09:06,392
What increasingly
negative media around porn hurts
1218
01:09:06,475 --> 01:09:10,271
is porn performers, who are very
publicly involved in the porn industry.
1219
01:09:10,354 --> 01:09:13,858
They can't just
leave the office and go home.
1220
01:09:13,941 --> 01:09:16,694
They can't just quit their job.
Get a different job.
1221
01:09:16,777 --> 01:09:20,865
You know, they're very publicly
involved in this in a way that,
1222
01:09:20,948 --> 01:09:25,035
if you've been doing it for a while,
is very difficult to erase fully.
1223
01:09:26,954 --> 01:09:29,582
And I've seen many, many, many times
1224
01:09:29,665 --> 01:09:33,752
the direct result
of this kind of broad strokes criticism
1225
01:09:33,836 --> 01:09:37,923
and who it affects,
and it's not who it should.
1226
01:09:42,887 --> 01:09:45,723
You know, you are quite successful.
How much do you make?
1227
01:09:46,348 --> 01:09:50,269
I'm sorry. You want me
to tell the panel how much I make?
1228
01:09:50,352 --> 01:09:54,273
Yeah. What's your... What's your salary?
What's your income last year?
1229
01:09:54,356 --> 01:09:56,817
Well, obviously,
this is a very private matter
1230
01:09:56,901 --> 01:09:59,570
that I would not like to share
with the committee. Uh...
1231
01:09:59,653 --> 01:10:03,657
Uh, I get paid fairly, like any other CEO
of a... of a... of a company.
1232
01:10:03,741 --> 01:10:06,535
Right. Okay.
How much worldwide gross profit
1233
01:10:06,619 --> 01:10:09,830
did your company make last year?
And how much the year prior?
1234
01:10:10,831 --> 01:10:12,291
That's public knowledge.
1235
01:10:12,374 --> 01:10:14,501
I... I don't have exact numbers, but, uh...
1236
01:10:14,585 --> 01:10:17,504
You don't know how much
your company made last year?
1237
01:10:17,588 --> 01:10:20,758
Mr. Dong. Mr. Dong.
I know how much our company made.
1238
01:10:20,841 --> 01:10:24,094
This is a private company,
and I don't understand the relevance
1239
01:10:24,178 --> 01:10:26,722
of what a private company makes
has to do with...
1240
01:10:26,805 --> 01:10:29,058
- D'you file taxes?
- [Antoon] Of course we do.
1241
01:10:29,141 --> 01:10:34,355
It's been reported... It's been reported
in the 460 million range last year.
1242
01:10:34,897 --> 01:10:36,607
Is that... Is that somewhere close?
1243
01:10:37,233 --> 01:10:38,901
Uh, I have to go back and check.
1244
01:10:39,401 --> 01:10:41,862
Uh, I find that very interesting
1245
01:10:41,946 --> 01:10:44,156
that you consider
your financial information
1246
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:46,742
to be private and, uh, confidential,
1247
01:10:47,243 --> 01:10:50,246
um, in view of the business
that you're in, uh,
1248
01:10:50,329 --> 01:10:55,125
but Mr. Antoon, it has been reported
that you are building a sprawling mansion
1249
01:10:55,209 --> 01:10:57,253
in the north end of Montréal,
1250
01:10:57,336 --> 01:11:01,507
that you and your wife
own two other large properties in Québec,
1251
01:11:01,590 --> 01:11:04,260
including a compound in the Laurentians,
1252
01:11:04,343 --> 01:11:07,263
and that you drive a Lamborghini Urus.
1253
01:11:07,346 --> 01:11:09,265
Are these assets yours
1254
01:11:09,348 --> 01:11:11,225
or are they owned by MindGeek
1255
01:11:11,308 --> 01:11:13,477
or one of the related companies?
1256
01:11:14,687 --> 01:11:18,649
I don't understand how what I own
is relevant to this committee.
1257
01:11:18,732 --> 01:11:22,695
And number two, I don't think it's illegal
to own a house or a property.
1258
01:11:22,778 --> 01:11:25,823
I don't own anything in the Laurentians.
If you look at media reports...
1259
01:11:25,906 --> 01:11:30,536
I'm asking if it's owned by yourself
or by MindGeek? Or by a company?
1260
01:11:30,619 --> 01:11:33,414
Depending which property
you're talking about, but no,
1261
01:11:33,497 --> 01:11:35,332
MindGeek does not own any property.
1262
01:11:36,250 --> 01:11:37,668
[sirens wailing]
1263
01:11:39,545 --> 01:11:42,047
[anchor] A new home being built
by one of the executives
1264
01:11:42,131 --> 01:11:45,718
of the company that owns Pornhub
has been the target of arson.
1265
01:11:46,302 --> 01:11:49,388
[anchor 2] Realtor Joseph Montanaro,
who listed the home last week
1266
01:11:49,471 --> 01:11:54,310
for almost $20 million,
confirmed it is Feras Antoon's mansion.
1267
01:11:54,893 --> 01:11:59,440
The house was controversial
even before it was built, and now this.
1268
01:11:59,523 --> 01:12:01,525
[somber electronic music playing]
1269
01:12:04,570 --> 01:12:06,363
[Patriquin] It was spring 2021.
1270
01:12:06,447 --> 01:12:07,865
Antoon was building a house.
1271
01:12:08,615 --> 01:12:10,117
Sort of in Montréal.
1272
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:12,745
Massive spread.
And got into a little bit of trouble
1273
01:12:12,828 --> 01:12:15,372
'cause he cut down a bunch of trees
he wasn't supposed to.
1274
01:12:16,373 --> 01:12:18,917
And then, lo and behold, it caught fire.
1275
01:12:20,711 --> 01:12:22,963
There was not much house left
at the end of it.
1276
01:12:23,964 --> 01:12:26,800
At first, I was like,
"It sounds like something from a movie."
1277
01:12:28,844 --> 01:12:32,890
It was an enormous fire,
like, a raging fire.
1278
01:12:33,807 --> 01:12:36,310
I have no idea
what kind of person it takes...
1279
01:12:36,393 --> 01:12:38,473
[chuckles in disbelief]
...to do something like that.
1280
01:12:40,773 --> 01:12:42,274
As far as I know,
1281
01:12:42,358 --> 01:12:46,278
there's never been any movement
as to who exactly did it.
1282
01:12:47,488 --> 01:12:51,075
I'd heard everything from, you know,
a couple of kids who happened upon
1283
01:12:51,158 --> 01:12:54,286
a really nice house
that would look good going up into flames,
1284
01:12:54,370 --> 01:12:57,164
to people realizing
that he was living there
1285
01:12:57,247 --> 01:12:58,749
because it was very public.
1286
01:12:58,832 --> 01:13:01,835
And this happened
all at the time when MindGeek itself
1287
01:13:01,919 --> 01:13:04,838
was, uh, certainly in the headlines
for the wrong reasons.
1288
01:13:06,590 --> 01:13:10,260
[Stabile] There are lots of people
who don't like the adult industry,
1289
01:13:10,344 --> 01:13:14,431
and there's lots of good reasons
for people to stay out of the spotlight.
1290
01:13:15,724 --> 01:13:18,394
A good example is Feras Antoon.
1291
01:13:18,477 --> 01:13:21,939
His name was public if you knew
where to search, but he wasn't out front.
1292
01:13:22,940 --> 01:13:26,276
When his name was exposed,
when a member of committee in Parliament
1293
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:28,862
talked about the neighborhood
he lived in, you know,
1294
01:13:29,363 --> 01:13:31,532
shortly thereafter,
the house was burned down.
1295
01:13:32,825 --> 01:13:34,910
There's tons of stigma
around the adult business.
1296
01:13:34,993 --> 01:13:38,205
There's plenty of reasons
why you would not use a real name.
1297
01:13:45,003 --> 01:13:47,690
- [interviewer] How did you pick your name?
- Don't you know anything?
1298
01:13:47,714 --> 01:13:52,594
It's my first pet's name
and the street I grew up on. [laughing]
1299
01:13:56,598 --> 01:14:01,520
So, since, like, Pornhub just lost
their payment processing ability,
1300
01:14:01,603 --> 01:14:05,232
most of my work
is coming from OnlyFans these days.
1301
01:14:06,275 --> 01:14:08,277
And everything about my workday
1302
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:12,948
is centered around making sure that
that stays as reliable as possible.
1303
01:14:14,700 --> 01:14:18,495
And one of the more,
like, fun things that I do on OnlyFans
1304
01:14:18,579 --> 01:14:20,539
is I offer dick ratings.
1305
01:14:23,542 --> 01:14:26,962
I started doing it because
I got a ton of requests from guys, like,
1306
01:14:27,045 --> 01:14:28,589
"Hey, would you rate my dick?"
1307
01:14:28,672 --> 01:14:33,552
And I was like, "Excuse me? You want me
to look at your dick and then rate it?"
1308
01:14:34,136 --> 01:14:35,136
Aw.
1309
01:14:35,554 --> 01:14:38,765
The thing that I sell the most
are video dick ratings,
1310
01:14:38,849 --> 01:14:41,810
and so this is me
just literally filming myself on my phone.
1311
01:14:43,228 --> 01:14:45,147
I never look at their actual dick pic
1312
01:14:45,230 --> 01:14:47,983
until the moment
that I'm filming the rating video.
1313
01:14:48,859 --> 01:14:51,445
All right, first wiener of the day.
1314
01:14:53,739 --> 01:14:57,367
Hello there!
Um, I don't know your real name,
1315
01:14:57,451 --> 01:15:00,245
but I hope you're having
a good day so far.
1316
01:15:00,329 --> 01:15:02,831
I've got your dick pic
pulled up in front of me,
1317
01:15:02,915 --> 01:15:05,334
and, um, you have a nice-looking dick.
1318
01:15:05,417 --> 01:15:08,545
Like, I can't get a great sense of,
like, scale from this.
1319
01:15:08,629 --> 01:15:12,841
I think it looks like it's about average,
maybe slightly smaller than average,
1320
01:15:12,925 --> 01:15:17,179
but then, like, probably average girth
or maybe even bigger than average girth.
1321
01:15:17,262 --> 01:15:20,557
You've got a great dick. It's ample-sized.
1322
01:15:20,641 --> 01:15:23,018
It looks like a very nice,
well-taken-care-of dick.
1323
01:15:23,101 --> 01:15:25,854
I can tell that you've put
some effort into your grooming.
1324
01:15:25,938 --> 01:15:28,065
It looks very well moisturized. [giggles]
1325
01:15:29,066 --> 01:15:32,861
It's, like, reminiscent
of a really big banana.
1326
01:15:32,945 --> 01:15:35,364
It looks like you have
a pretty good-sized dick
1327
01:15:35,447 --> 01:15:36,782
from what I can tell here,
1328
01:15:36,865 --> 01:15:39,535
and you definitely have,
like, super-prominent veins.
1329
01:15:39,618 --> 01:15:41,328
It looks like it's a good size,
1330
01:15:41,411 --> 01:15:43,705
and I can tell that you are circumcised
1331
01:15:43,789 --> 01:15:45,290
and that you have nice balls.
1332
01:15:45,374 --> 01:15:49,336
[laughs] And, you know, that's enough
for me to feel very confident
1333
01:15:49,419 --> 01:15:51,880
in giving you a 7 out of 10,
1334
01:15:51,964 --> 01:15:54,216
and I hope that
you're happy with that rating.
1335
01:15:54,299 --> 01:15:57,469
7.5 out of 10.
1336
01:15:57,553 --> 01:15:58,971
So, excellent job.
1337
01:15:59,054 --> 01:16:01,932
Your rating is a solid
1338
01:16:02,015 --> 01:16:05,394
and quite above average 8 out of 10.
1339
01:16:05,477 --> 01:16:08,188
I hope that you are
super happy with that rating.
1340
01:16:08,272 --> 01:16:11,275
Thank you so much for being a fan,
and I hope you have
1341
01:16:11,358 --> 01:16:14,528
a great rest of your night,
and I'll talk to you soon in my DMs.
1342
01:16:24,413 --> 01:16:25,998
[keyboard clattering]
1343
01:16:26,081 --> 01:16:29,960
[Souras] Operating a pornography website,
like any other social media website,
1344
01:16:30,043 --> 01:16:32,462
is almost like operating
a firecracker factory
1345
01:16:32,546 --> 01:16:33,964
and not banning smoking.
1346
01:16:34,047 --> 01:16:37,050
You're creating an explosive situation
1347
01:16:37,134 --> 01:16:39,928
for the most vulnerable members
of our population.
1348
01:16:41,471 --> 01:16:45,642
The bulk of Pornhub's content
was probably completely legal,
1349
01:16:46,351 --> 01:16:48,520
but they operate on this razor's edge,
1350
01:16:48,604 --> 01:16:53,150
and that's where the tremendous
danger zone for any adult site is.
1351
01:16:54,401 --> 01:16:58,196
So the biggest law out there right now
is the Communications Decency Act,
1352
01:16:58,280 --> 01:16:59,615
Section 230.
1353
01:17:00,324 --> 01:17:01,783
And that really just provides
1354
01:17:01,867 --> 01:17:04,828
that if you are
an interactive services provider,
1355
01:17:04,911 --> 01:17:09,291
you are not responsible in any way
for what gets published on your website.
1356
01:17:11,084 --> 01:17:13,879
230 has become
a complete shield of protection
1357
01:17:13,962 --> 01:17:16,673
for really egregious criminal activity
1358
01:17:16,757 --> 01:17:19,676
that even when people
are being sex trafficked,
1359
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:22,596
sold, horrifically abused online,
1360
01:17:22,679 --> 01:17:24,848
these websites
just throw up their hands and say,
1361
01:17:24,931 --> 01:17:27,601
"Someone else put that on my site.
That's not my problem."
1362
01:17:27,684 --> 01:17:29,728
Unfortunately,
they've been very successful.
1363
01:17:30,562 --> 01:17:33,106
But when court after court
was denying these claims
1364
01:17:33,190 --> 01:17:36,693
on behalf of sex trafficking victims,
Congress responded.
1365
01:17:37,194 --> 01:17:38,445
They passed FOSTA-SESTA,
1366
01:17:38,528 --> 01:17:43,283
which is Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act
and Stop Enabling Sex Trafficking Act,
1367
01:17:43,367 --> 01:17:45,869
and they said 230 was never intended
1368
01:17:45,952 --> 01:17:49,331
to shield those who are knowingly
profiting off sex trafficking.
1369
01:17:51,917 --> 01:17:55,170
[Stabile] After FOSTA-SESTA,
there were lots of platforms that said,
1370
01:17:55,253 --> 01:17:57,547
"We don't wanna be responsible for this."
1371
01:17:57,631 --> 01:18:00,467
So you saw Craigslist
take down its personal ads
1372
01:18:00,550 --> 01:18:02,719
and Reddit take down
its sex work subreddit.
1373
01:18:02,803 --> 01:18:05,597
Because if something was missed,
if somebody was trafficked,
1374
01:18:05,681 --> 01:18:07,599
if somebody was actually underage,
1375
01:18:07,683 --> 01:18:10,686
then suddenly
they could be prosecuted, right?
1376
01:18:10,769 --> 01:18:13,021
And not just the owner of the platform
1377
01:18:13,105 --> 01:18:14,940
but the employees at the platform.
1378
01:18:15,023 --> 01:18:17,067
And so, there was a general silencing.
1379
01:18:17,150 --> 01:18:18,819
We will not be deleted!
1380
01:18:18,902 --> 01:18:22,406
[Stabile] Sex workers in general
were deplatformed across the Internet.
1381
01:18:22,489 --> 01:18:24,408
[chanting] FOSTA-SESTA kills!
1382
01:18:24,491 --> 01:18:26,451
[woman] Sex workers
had to go back into situations
1383
01:18:26,493 --> 01:18:30,163
that are not necessarily
as safe as it was working online.
1384
01:18:31,123 --> 01:18:33,583
There's just crazy
amounts of numbers that, like,
1385
01:18:33,667 --> 01:18:36,962
33% had to go back
and face domestic violence
1386
01:18:37,045 --> 01:18:41,466
or go back to their pimp
and, like, 72% of us lost our income.
1387
01:18:41,550 --> 01:18:42,801
Lost a lot of our income.
1388
01:18:42,884 --> 01:18:46,054
Had our income jeopardized or censored.
Had our accounts shut down.
1389
01:18:46,138 --> 01:18:48,140
[tense music playing]
1390
01:18:52,728 --> 01:18:55,063
Not only did it make it unsafe,
1391
01:18:55,147 --> 01:18:57,315
it made child traffickers harder to find.
1392
01:18:58,984 --> 01:19:02,404
That's what that law did.
That law's still in place right now.
1393
01:19:03,905 --> 01:19:06,992
[Perdue] I was in
a Pornhub general meeting,
1394
01:19:07,075 --> 01:19:10,370
and the CEO said,
1395
01:19:10,454 --> 01:19:11,997
"What's 'SESTA-FOSTA'?"
1396
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:16,042
Which was really
obviously infuriating for me,
1397
01:19:16,126 --> 01:19:20,797
given that they have made
their fortunes off of sex workers
1398
01:19:21,465 --> 01:19:25,218
and clearly did not bother to give
1399
01:19:25,302 --> 01:19:29,264
one ounce of interest
into their well-being.
1400
01:19:35,187 --> 01:19:37,230
SESTA-FOSTA really made a dent
1401
01:19:37,314 --> 01:19:41,067
on how sex workers
were able to market themselves online
1402
01:19:41,902 --> 01:19:44,237
and has influenced more censorship
1403
01:19:44,321 --> 01:19:47,783
on platforms like Twitter and Instagram.
1404
01:19:51,661 --> 01:19:54,539
[Dahl] It used to be a lot easier
to get new fans via social media,
1405
01:19:54,623 --> 01:19:57,083
but after FOSTA-SESTA was passed,
1406
01:19:57,167 --> 01:20:00,545
the shadowbanning got so bad
that I can't even really reliably
1407
01:20:00,629 --> 01:20:03,882
tell my fans that I'm on the Internet
via those websites.
1408
01:20:04,674 --> 01:20:08,512
I have a couple Instagram accounts.
It's very common, I have backup accounts.
1409
01:20:08,595 --> 01:20:12,265
But my main account, with the most number
of followers, is shadowbanned.
1410
01:20:12,349 --> 01:20:15,227
So no one can find me
by searching my name.
1411
01:20:15,310 --> 01:20:18,688
Like, if you search "Siri Dahl,"
I don't come up.
1412
01:20:18,772 --> 01:20:23,109
You have to know my entire username,
type it in as it appears, and hit enter,
1413
01:20:23,193 --> 01:20:25,153
and then it will show you my profile.
1414
01:20:25,237 --> 01:20:27,882
There's no way for anyone
who doesn't already follow me on Instagram
1415
01:20:27,906 --> 01:20:29,491
to ever discover my profile.
1416
01:20:29,574 --> 01:20:32,744
They must already know
that I'm on there and be following me.
1417
01:20:34,120 --> 01:20:38,750
And it is totally expected that
if I post a photo of me, like, in a bikini
1418
01:20:38,834 --> 01:20:42,379
or, like, in a tank top and a skirt,
1419
01:20:42,462 --> 01:20:46,007
like, anything that, like,
a non sex-worker could post on Instagram
1420
01:20:46,091 --> 01:20:49,928
and it would be fine, like, if I post it,
it gets flagged as soliciting.
1421
01:20:50,762 --> 01:20:54,099
[scoffs] Even if I don't put a caption
that says anything on there.
1422
01:20:55,642 --> 01:20:57,727
And it's not just social media.
1423
01:20:57,811 --> 01:21:02,983
The financial institutions
have a really impressive amount of power
1424
01:21:03,066 --> 01:21:05,485
over the porn industry,
to a degree that most
1425
01:21:06,528 --> 01:21:09,197
consumers of porn do not realize.
1426
01:21:10,574 --> 01:21:13,326
There's just a whole
really long laundry list
1427
01:21:13,410 --> 01:21:15,787
of terminology that you cannot use.
1428
01:21:16,788 --> 01:21:18,748
And some of it is very sensical.
1429
01:21:18,832 --> 01:21:22,335
A lot of it is words that
would imply any type of lack of consent.
1430
01:21:23,378 --> 01:21:27,048
But a lot of it is very queer phobic.
Like "fisting."
1431
01:21:27,883 --> 01:21:31,469
"Fisting" is not allowed. I cannot put
the word "fisting" on OnlyFans.
1432
01:21:31,553 --> 01:21:32,929
"Pegging" is not allowed.
1433
01:21:34,014 --> 01:21:36,474
It's just because
some executive at Mastercard
1434
01:21:36,558 --> 01:21:38,226
has a fear of things in his butt.
1435
01:21:38,810 --> 01:21:40,353
[keyboard clicking]
1436
01:21:40,437 --> 01:21:42,606
[Perdue] This increased censorship online
1437
01:21:42,689 --> 01:21:47,152
means that these models
have to rely again on studios,
1438
01:21:47,235 --> 01:21:50,739
on bigger platforms like Pornhub,
on management
1439
01:21:50,822 --> 01:21:52,240
to grow their audience.
1440
01:21:53,199 --> 01:21:56,620
If I didn't have
the stable income from OnlyFans,
1441
01:21:57,203 --> 01:22:00,999
I would be put back in a place
where I might have to consider
1442
01:22:01,541 --> 01:22:06,171
accepting shoot requests from companies
that I haven't worked for before,
1443
01:22:06,254 --> 01:22:08,590
that I maybe don't trust,
or I question their,
1444
01:22:09,257 --> 01:22:10,967
you know, their set environment.
1445
01:22:12,344 --> 01:22:14,596
And so, after seeing
the fallout of Pornhub
1446
01:22:14,679 --> 01:22:17,682
having their payment processing
capabilities banned, like...
1447
01:22:18,767 --> 01:22:22,020
I think me and just about
everyone I know in the industry
1448
01:22:22,103 --> 01:22:23,939
immediately was like, "Oh no."
1449
01:22:24,814 --> 01:22:25,814
"OnlyFans."
1450
01:22:25,857 --> 01:22:29,110
[anchor] OnlyFans is a website,
which is basically built on sex,
1451
01:22:29,194 --> 01:22:32,447
and models and performers
have been able to charge for nude imagery.
1452
01:22:32,530 --> 01:22:34,741
Well, now the group says,
as of 1st October,
1453
01:22:34,824 --> 01:22:38,286
they are phasing out
sexually explicit content.
1454
01:22:39,621 --> 01:22:41,748
[Stabile] So after Visa and Mastercard
1455
01:22:41,831 --> 01:22:43,333
stopped working with Pornhub,
1456
01:22:43,917 --> 01:22:46,336
Mastercard came out with new regulations.
1457
01:22:46,419 --> 01:22:48,088
And basically it said,
1458
01:22:48,171 --> 01:22:50,715
"If you're going to be an adult site
that processes with us,
1459
01:22:50,799 --> 01:22:52,926
any piece of content that is on your site,
1460
01:22:53,009 --> 01:22:55,845
whether you create it
or a user uploads it,
1461
01:22:55,929 --> 01:22:58,306
needs to have this chain of paperwork."
1462
01:22:59,224 --> 01:23:02,727
Which, for the adult industry,
was something we already did.
1463
01:23:03,228 --> 01:23:07,482
But the regulations
that Mastercard put out were quite vague.
1464
01:23:07,565 --> 01:23:10,902
[anchor] OnlyFans founder says, "Unfair."
1465
01:23:10,986 --> 01:23:14,906
Banks gave him no choice but to ban porn.
1466
01:23:14,990 --> 01:23:17,784
Immediately, I went into
crisis management mode
1467
01:23:17,867 --> 01:23:22,163
because I was like, "I don't know
where my money is gonna be coming
1468
01:23:22,247 --> 01:23:23,707
from one month from now."
1469
01:23:23,790 --> 01:23:29,337
They know that fans of OnlyFans
are only fans of one thing, right?
1470
01:23:29,421 --> 01:23:33,299
They have tried to model themselves
as something other,
1471
01:23:33,383 --> 01:23:36,761
but everybody knows
OnlyFans is a porn site. Period.
1472
01:23:37,721 --> 01:23:41,016
[Stabile] When OnlyFans got shut down,
sex workers were prepared.
1473
01:23:41,099 --> 01:23:42,976
- [girl] Hello.
- Hey, can you hear me?
1474
01:23:43,059 --> 01:23:44,436
- [girl] I can.
- That's great.
1475
01:23:44,519 --> 01:23:48,481
[interview] You know, we had spent months
talking with them about Section 230.
1476
01:23:49,065 --> 01:23:52,235
We'd spent months talking with them
about banking discrimination
1477
01:23:52,318 --> 01:23:55,238
and the censorship powers
of the credit card companies.
1478
01:23:55,321 --> 01:23:58,241
So, when OnlyFans happened,
people were ready to speak out.
1479
01:23:59,325 --> 01:24:02,787
[DeVille] Even though
a massive percentage of their platform
1480
01:24:02,871 --> 01:24:05,081
is made up of sex workers
and sexual content,
1481
01:24:05,623 --> 01:24:10,045
they almost decided
that eliminating all of that
1482
01:24:10,128 --> 01:24:13,381
would be more profitable
than eliminating credit card processing.
1483
01:24:13,465 --> 01:24:16,551
I think that if it had played out
like it played out with Pornhub,
1484
01:24:16,634 --> 01:24:18,928
OnlyFans wouldn't have been able
to switch back.
1485
01:24:19,012 --> 01:24:21,473
[anchor] OnlyFans doing
a total one-eighty,
1486
01:24:21,556 --> 01:24:24,309
scrapping plans to ban
sexually explicit material.
1487
01:24:24,392 --> 01:24:28,354
The decision coming less than a week
after its original announcement.
1488
01:24:28,438 --> 01:24:31,149
They completely did a one-eighty and said,
1489
01:24:31,232 --> 01:24:33,985
"Never mind.
We're not banning adult content."
1490
01:24:34,486 --> 01:24:36,279
"We've suspended that rule."
1491
01:24:37,238 --> 01:24:38,239
Which is like,
1492
01:24:39,449 --> 01:24:42,202
"Okay." [laughs] "That's good."
1493
01:24:42,285 --> 01:24:44,704
"Uh, that was a big scare.
I'm very relieved."
1494
01:24:44,788 --> 01:24:46,372
"But also, what the hell?"
1495
01:24:46,456 --> 01:24:47,957
[tense music playing]
1496
01:25:02,847 --> 01:25:06,810
[Perdue] The direct conflation
of sex trafficking and sexual exploitation
1497
01:25:06,893 --> 01:25:10,355
with pornography harms everybody involved.
1498
01:25:10,438 --> 01:25:14,859
It harms people who are looking
to consume porn in a healthy way.
1499
01:25:16,861 --> 01:25:21,407
And it opens up the possibility
for porn to be non-consensual,
1500
01:25:22,033 --> 01:25:23,618
which should not be the case.
1501
01:25:23,701 --> 01:25:26,079
[bright electronic music playing]
1502
01:25:30,500 --> 01:25:32,502
- [Dahl] Hello!
- [Mills] Hey, stranger.
1503
01:25:32,585 --> 01:25:34,587
- [chuckles] How are you?
- [Dahl] Good.
1504
01:25:34,671 --> 01:25:37,006
[Mills] Good to see you.
Welcome to the set.
1505
01:25:37,090 --> 01:25:39,676
[Perdue] In order for it
to be pornography,
1506
01:25:39,759 --> 01:25:41,511
it has to be consensual.
1507
01:25:42,095 --> 01:25:45,765
Otherwise, it is documentation
of sexual abuse, and that's what it is.
1508
01:25:46,641 --> 01:25:50,019
There's no such thing
as non-consensual sex. It is rape.
1509
01:25:50,812 --> 01:25:53,773
There is no such thing
as non-consensual pornography.
1510
01:25:54,315 --> 01:25:55,150
It is rape.
1511
01:25:55,233 --> 01:25:57,485
[squealing] Hi! Hello!
1512
01:26:00,572 --> 01:26:02,448
[Perdue] Pornography is pornography
1513
01:26:02,532 --> 01:26:06,661
and that has to inherently imply consent...
1514
01:26:06,744 --> 01:26:07,579
This is nice.
1515
01:26:07,662 --> 01:26:09,080
...100% of the time.
1516
01:26:09,664 --> 01:26:12,709
[Mills] Could we take a series
that is a hot series
1517
01:26:12,792 --> 01:26:18,548
and can we just kind of Trojan horse
some important points of influence
1518
01:26:18,631 --> 01:26:21,259
into that story so that
when people watch it, they think,
1519
01:26:21,342 --> 01:26:23,428
"Oh man, I watched this really hot scene."
1520
01:26:23,511 --> 01:26:27,015
But the fact that the characters
talked about consent beforehand,
1521
01:26:27,098 --> 01:26:30,018
could that not be,
like, the best form of foreplay?
1522
01:26:30,101 --> 01:26:32,979
Is that... Does that not make
the sex so much hotter?
1523
01:26:35,190 --> 01:26:39,027
[crew] Welcome back to The Yes List.
We are at sequence three. Take nine.
1524
01:26:39,110 --> 01:26:40,612
Soft sticks. Marker.
1525
01:26:40,695 --> 01:26:41,696
[Mills] Action.
1526
01:26:42,405 --> 01:26:47,327
Well, I think first I would like to tell
both of you what I'm into.
1527
01:26:47,410 --> 01:26:48,828
- [Hudson] Okay.
- Let's hear it.
1528
01:26:49,412 --> 01:26:51,456
[Dahl] I'm totally fine
with spanking or slapping,
1529
01:26:51,539 --> 01:26:55,710
but, um, just a little more gentle
if it's anywhere other than on my ass.
1530
01:26:55,793 --> 01:26:56,793
[Hudson] Sure.
1531
01:26:56,836 --> 01:27:00,340
I actually like it if I just get
a little bit of, like, a face slap.
1532
01:27:00,423 --> 01:27:01,925
If... If it comes...
1533
01:27:02,800 --> 01:27:04,219
to you in the moment, you know.
1534
01:27:04,302 --> 01:27:06,155
- [Hudson] I want you to want it.
- [Dahl laughs]
1535
01:27:06,179 --> 01:27:08,099
[Hudson] So if you want it,
we'll give it to you.
1536
01:27:08,181 --> 01:27:10,683
- [man] Mm-hmm.
- [Dahl] Mm-hmm. Ooh! Mm-hmm. [laughs]
1537
01:27:10,767 --> 01:27:14,437
[inhales deeply, exhales]
What about you guys?
1538
01:27:14,520 --> 01:27:17,690
[man] I love good sensual making out.
1539
01:27:18,858 --> 01:27:19,858
Um...
1540
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:22,320
What about you, Wolf? What do you like?
1541
01:27:24,197 --> 01:27:26,783
- Mmm. You mind helping her with that?
- Keep talking.
1542
01:27:26,866 --> 01:27:29,994
- Okay, I got a little distracted there.
- I'm just getting hot.
1543
01:27:30,078 --> 01:27:31,371
That's okay. Me too.
1544
01:27:31,454 --> 01:27:34,040
- [Hudson] I like this outfit.
- [Dahl giggles]
1545
01:27:34,123 --> 01:27:35,375
Um...
1546
01:27:35,458 --> 01:27:39,295
I love kissing. I love touching.
I love my neck being played with.
1547
01:27:39,379 --> 01:27:40,505
[Dahl] Mm-hmm? Mm!
1548
01:27:40,588 --> 01:27:42,382
Um, I don't like to be choked.
1549
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:47,136
I do like to be choked by the way.
I forgot to say that earlier.
1550
01:27:47,220 --> 01:27:48,054
- You do.
- I do.
1551
01:27:48,137 --> 01:27:49,305
- [Hudson] Okay.
- Mm-hmm.
1552
01:27:49,389 --> 01:27:53,559
- But I will not choke... No one chokes Wolf.
- No choking. No... No slapping.
1553
01:27:53,643 --> 01:27:55,561
If the attack on porn
1554
01:27:56,229 --> 01:27:59,565
continues on the path
that it's currently on, it's like...
1555
01:28:00,775 --> 01:28:04,904
It's not just an attack on porn,
it's an attack on women's sexuality,
1556
01:28:04,988 --> 01:28:06,864
it's an attack on queer sexuality,
1557
01:28:06,948 --> 01:28:10,910
it's an attack on people
being able to express themselves openly,
1558
01:28:10,994 --> 01:28:12,537
uh, especially online.
1559
01:28:15,456 --> 01:28:17,875
[Dreams] I know it's a dark demon,
1560
01:28:17,959 --> 01:28:21,546
our industry, but I don't think
it's as dark as they portray it.
1561
01:28:22,297 --> 01:28:26,426
And no one that's judging me
for what I'm doing for work
1562
01:28:26,509 --> 01:28:29,637
was there for me when I had my bad days.
1563
01:28:29,721 --> 01:28:31,431
[woman] Oh my God, I'm so excited.
1564
01:28:31,514 --> 01:28:33,808
- [Adora laughs] The big moment.
- [woman] Yes!
1565
01:28:33,891 --> 01:28:37,103
If it wasn't for porn,
like, I probably wouldn't be alive.
1566
01:28:37,186 --> 01:28:38,771
[Adora] Thank you. Thank you.
1567
01:28:38,855 --> 01:28:41,941
- Cheers to Gwen!
- [all] To Gwen!
1568
01:28:42,025 --> 01:28:44,193
[Adora laughs] Thank you.
1569
01:28:44,277 --> 01:28:47,739
I think a lot of people who were calling
for the downfall of Pornhub
1570
01:28:47,822 --> 01:28:49,782
didn't really realize what that meant.
1571
01:28:49,866 --> 01:28:52,660
I think they just wanted
the website deleted, and they thought,
1572
01:28:52,744 --> 01:28:57,290
"Whoo, check mark. Like, this is great.
We did it. We got rid of this material."
1573
01:28:57,373 --> 01:28:58,958
[jingle playing]
1574
01:28:59,459 --> 01:29:02,253
[Adora] While I do agree that Pornhub
did not do a good enough job
1575
01:29:02,337 --> 01:29:03,838
of helping those victims,
1576
01:29:04,422 --> 01:29:06,799
the illegal content exists
on every website.
1577
01:29:06,883 --> 01:29:10,553
So if we are saying that
all the websites should go down,
1578
01:29:10,636 --> 01:29:13,264
like, that's not stopping
the videos from happening.
1579
01:29:13,348 --> 01:29:14,849
That's not fixing the issues.
1580
01:29:15,433 --> 01:29:17,894
That's just gonna keep happening
on different websites.
1581
01:29:17,977 --> 01:29:20,938
So it's an exhausting fight
because, realistically,
1582
01:29:21,022 --> 01:29:24,025
those people don't care about
the... the victims.
1583
01:29:24,108 --> 01:29:27,737
They just care about
getting the porn industry
1584
01:29:27,820 --> 01:29:30,615
to be as small as possible.
They don't want us thriving.
1585
01:29:31,532 --> 01:29:36,746
[presenter] And now, the winners
of the 4th annual Pornhub Award.
1586
01:29:36,829 --> 01:29:39,165
Top BBW Performer.
1587
01:29:40,083 --> 01:29:41,834
- Gwen Adora.
- [Adora squealing]
1588
01:29:45,505 --> 01:29:49,384
[Pinter] We live our lives every day
knowing that we can't do whatever we want.
1589
01:29:49,467 --> 01:29:53,513
My free speech and my freedom
ends where your nose begins, right?
1590
01:29:53,596 --> 01:29:56,182
I can't punch you in the face
because I want to,
1591
01:29:56,265 --> 01:29:58,601
and we understand that
in the physical world.
1592
01:29:58,684 --> 01:30:00,645
We need to apply that
to the Internet world.
1593
01:30:02,605 --> 01:30:05,775
[Souras] There needs to be a carve-out
for child sexual abuse material,
1594
01:30:05,858 --> 01:30:07,902
the images, and the videos,
1595
01:30:07,985 --> 01:30:10,780
the 70,000 a day
that we get reported to NCMEC.
1596
01:30:11,823 --> 01:30:14,867
But at its root,
this is an Internet problem.
1597
01:30:15,451 --> 01:30:17,578
The fact that companies can,
1598
01:30:17,662 --> 01:30:20,748
with impunity,
decide not to regulate content,
1599
01:30:21,332 --> 01:30:23,793
can decide not to undertake
voluntary measures,
1600
01:30:23,876 --> 01:30:27,004
can decide not to take
customer complaints about content,
1601
01:30:27,088 --> 01:30:31,092
and can simply allow
this content to proliferate, right now,
1602
01:30:31,175 --> 01:30:35,596
with no legal ability by anybody
to seek any change in that.
1603
01:30:36,222 --> 01:30:38,516
And that's the Internet.
That's not Pornhub.
1604
01:30:39,183 --> 01:30:41,144
[Dahl] Can I watch you guys kiss first?
1605
01:30:41,227 --> 01:30:43,855
- [man] Want us to kiss first?
- [Dahl] Yeah. [giggles]
1606
01:30:44,814 --> 01:30:46,107
Fuck! [chuckles]
1607
01:30:46,774 --> 01:30:50,903
There are plenty of cultural fields
around pornography and sex
1608
01:30:50,987 --> 01:30:54,449
that might lead someone to say,
"You know what? This isn't my battle."
1609
01:30:54,532 --> 01:30:57,285
[performers moaning]
1610
01:30:57,368 --> 01:30:59,287
[Stabile] What people don't realize
1611
01:30:59,370 --> 01:31:02,790
is porn is traditionally
the canary in the coalmine of free speech.
1612
01:31:03,374 --> 01:31:04,374
[girl gasps]
1613
01:31:04,417 --> 01:31:08,963
And so, anytime there is a crime,
anytime a bad actor uses a platform,
1614
01:31:09,046 --> 01:31:11,382
it's incumbent on that platform
to look and say,
1615
01:31:11,466 --> 01:31:14,343
"How can we prevent this in the future?
What other things can we do?"
1616
01:31:15,928 --> 01:31:18,014
[gasps] Oh my God.
1617
01:31:20,308 --> 01:31:21,308
Whoo!
1618
01:31:21,350 --> 01:31:24,687
[Stabile] It shouldn't be that we need
to shut down all communication
1619
01:31:25,188 --> 01:31:27,482
to prevent any crime
from ever possibly happening
1620
01:31:27,565 --> 01:31:29,400
because that ends a sort of free society.
1621
01:31:29,484 --> 01:31:31,861
- [clapboard claps]
- [clapboard holder] Bling!
1622
01:31:31,944 --> 01:31:34,655
[Mills] And that is officially a cut!
1623
01:31:34,739 --> 01:31:36,741
[ethereal electronic music playing]
1624
01:32:03,017 --> 01:32:05,186
Well, let's have everybody take a minute.
1625
01:32:05,269 --> 01:32:08,105
It's been, you know,
it's been a... it's been a... a grind,
1626
01:32:08,189 --> 01:32:09,398
so let's have some food.
1627
01:32:09,482 --> 01:32:10,858
[people chatting]
1628
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- [Mills] Yes.
- [unheard dialogue]
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[Mills] Oh yeah.
Absolutely, guys. Thank you.