1 00:00:11,472 --> 00:00:14,016 [somber theme music plays] 2 00:00:14,141 --> 00:00:16,018 [Megyn Kelly off screen] After we interviewed Jim Bob and Michelle, 3 00:00:16,101 --> 00:00:18,604 two of their daughters sat down with us. 4 00:00:19,104 --> 00:00:23,984 The Megyn Kelly thing, I don't really like to even talk about it 5 00:00:24,067 --> 00:00:28,113 because it's not something that I'm proud of. 6 00:00:28,197 --> 00:00:32,159 I look back and I think, you know, my parents did such an amazing job. 7 00:00:32,241 --> 00:00:36,705 If I hadn't felt obligated to like one, do it for like the sake of the show, 8 00:00:36,789 --> 00:00:40,000 and two, do it for like the sake of my parents, 9 00:00:40,083 --> 00:00:41,585 I wouldn't have done it. 10 00:00:41,668 --> 00:00:43,712 [intense theme music] 11 00:00:43,796 --> 00:00:48,550 It breaks my heart to think about the girls, and how they've been treated. 12 00:00:50,010 --> 00:00:53,847 For my family, with filming commitments, we knew there were expectations. 13 00:00:55,849 --> 00:00:57,184 There was definitely an awareness 14 00:00:57,267 --> 00:00:59,853 that they assumed that they were gonna be able 15 00:00:59,937 --> 00:01:02,147 to continue filming with us, and it wasn't gonna stop right after. 16 00:01:02,231 --> 00:01:04,733 Yes, we were taken advantage of. 17 00:01:05,484 --> 00:01:07,986 [Jim Bob] Really, it's not that invasive, and our children have gotten to the point 18 00:01:08,070 --> 00:01:10,030 where they just kind of ignore the cameras, 19 00:01:10,239 --> 00:01:12,783 and we really feel like this is a ministry 20 00:01:12,866 --> 00:01:15,410 that God has opened up through the television show. 21 00:01:15,911 --> 00:01:20,123 Whatever we go into oughta be full-time Christian work, 22 00:01:20,666 --> 00:01:23,919 because whatever we do oughta be done for the Lord. 23 00:01:24,878 --> 00:01:28,882 Growing up in that world, you have to obey, obey, obey, obey. 24 00:01:28,966 --> 00:01:31,885 It's a lot of hard work, but it's worth it. 25 00:01:31,969 --> 00:01:35,722 There was a core teaching of IBLP's servanthood 26 00:01:35,806 --> 00:01:37,850 where you're taught to serve. 27 00:01:37,933 --> 00:01:40,644 The idea of signing a contract 28 00:01:40,727 --> 00:01:46,942 to agree to a specific set of rules or behaviors was very common. 29 00:01:47,025 --> 00:01:50,278 - [dramatic theme music plays] - [Floyd] And it never ended. 30 00:01:50,778 --> 00:01:54,992 Fundamentalism, it exploits people who have no other options, 31 00:01:55,868 --> 00:01:58,036 and then you have the people who see the potential of that 32 00:01:58,120 --> 00:01:59,705 and want to exploit it more. 33 00:01:59,788 --> 00:02:02,916 People in Gothard's sphere need to be held accountable 34 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,919 for how many children have been abused as a result of that. 35 00:02:06,670 --> 00:02:10,090 It makes me wonder if more will come out, more secrets will come out… 36 00:02:11,258 --> 00:02:13,343 …and how many families are suffering 37 00:02:13,427 --> 00:02:16,054 behind closed doors that no one knows about. 38 00:02:16,138 --> 00:02:19,600 [haunting choral theme music music] 39 00:02:25,188 --> 00:02:26,023 [music fades] 40 00:02:26,899 --> 00:02:28,150 Now to the Duggar family… 41 00:02:28,233 --> 00:02:31,570 Speaking out since being rocked by a series of scandals. 42 00:02:31,653 --> 00:02:32,779 Several family members 43 00:02:32,863 --> 00:02:37,534 are speaking out in TLC's new show, Jill & Jessa: Counting On. 44 00:02:37,951 --> 00:02:41,830 Everybody makes their own decisions, and everybody makes their own choices, 45 00:02:41,914 --> 00:02:44,791 but they're not the only ones that suffer the consequences. 46 00:02:44,875 --> 00:02:47,669 I don't think there's any way any of us would've known 47 00:02:47,753 --> 00:02:50,422 that my brother was living such a secret life. 48 00:02:50,505 --> 00:02:52,966 19 Kids and Counting was canceled, and the spinoff show, 49 00:02:53,050 --> 00:02:55,719 Counting On, took its place with a focus on the girls. 50 00:02:57,220 --> 00:03:01,934 We will come out of this fire stronger, as a family unit. 51 00:03:02,434 --> 00:03:06,813 [Tia] I look at that kind of a thing as just further exploitation of the girls. 52 00:03:06,897 --> 00:03:09,858 They now are responsible for being the breadwinners, 53 00:03:09,942 --> 00:03:11,068 keeping the show going. 54 00:03:11,151 --> 00:03:13,528 They're doing this on the back of their own abuse stories. 55 00:03:13,612 --> 00:03:16,031 You've already worked through that, you've already dealt with it, 56 00:03:16,114 --> 00:03:17,115 and you've already moved on, 57 00:03:17,199 --> 00:03:19,785 and you don't want that rubbed in your face all the time… 58 00:03:20,369 --> 00:03:22,829 [Tia] And at some point you're like, when is this crap gonna stop? 59 00:03:22,913 --> 00:03:24,456 How long of a rope does Jim Bob have? 60 00:03:25,165 --> 00:03:26,792 I could probably jump this fence if I had to. 61 00:03:26,875 --> 00:03:28,043 He doesn't look too friendly. 62 00:03:28,293 --> 00:03:33,840 The show really tries hard to portray Jim Bob as kind of a lovable lug. 63 00:03:34,424 --> 00:03:36,551 We never see him like yelling at anybody, 64 00:03:36,634 --> 00:03:39,388 or raising his voice, or anything like that. 65 00:03:39,471 --> 00:03:43,183 And I think this is designed to kind of diffuse our understanding 66 00:03:43,266 --> 00:03:46,019 of the power that he really possesses in this family. 67 00:03:46,103 --> 00:03:47,396 [gong crashes] 68 00:03:47,479 --> 00:03:51,400 [male narrator] In a land far, far away in the kingdom called Arkansas, 69 00:03:52,317 --> 00:03:55,112 there was a shogun named Jim Bob. 70 00:03:55,195 --> 00:03:58,365 Shogun Jim Bob also had a group of lovely maidens 71 00:03:58,448 --> 00:04:01,326 who are, by far, the fairest in the land. 72 00:04:01,994 --> 00:04:07,124 In 19 Kids and Counting, literally, we see Jim Bob handpicking the man 73 00:04:07,207 --> 00:04:09,334 who he thinks should be Jill's husband. 74 00:04:10,168 --> 00:04:12,587 Did Mr. Duggar ever grill you guys 75 00:04:12,754 --> 00:04:14,756 about your financial situation before marriage? 76 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:16,425 It's on the 45 page application. 77 00:04:16,507 --> 00:04:20,178 Jim Bob made you guys fill out questionnaires that were… 78 00:04:20,303 --> 00:04:22,514 - He is not kidding, yes. - [sister] Yes, they did. 79 00:04:22,597 --> 00:04:23,724 [intense theme music plays] 80 00:04:23,890 --> 00:04:26,351 We're from the same area in northwest Arkansas, 81 00:04:26,435 --> 00:04:28,770 but growing up, never met each other. 82 00:04:29,229 --> 00:04:33,525 And I was about to go to Nepal, and had actually contacted Jim Bob 83 00:04:33,608 --> 00:04:35,402 about being a prayer partner of mine. 84 00:04:35,485 --> 00:04:37,863 Knowing that someone's praying for you is encouraging. 85 00:04:38,739 --> 00:04:41,283 So we developed a relationship, and then he said, 86 00:04:41,366 --> 00:04:43,952 well my daughter Jill, here's her number. 87 00:04:44,036 --> 00:04:47,080 He also knew that I was having two dates coming up 88 00:04:47,164 --> 00:04:48,665 with two friends trying to set me up, 89 00:04:48,749 --> 00:04:51,125 so he was trying to get his guy in there first, and he won. 90 00:04:51,334 --> 00:04:52,878 [both laugh] 91 00:04:53,253 --> 00:04:54,629 If it's all right with you… 92 00:04:55,380 --> 00:04:57,966 I'm itching to start an official courtship, so. 93 00:04:58,050 --> 00:05:00,927 - [both chuckle] - So? 94 00:05:02,387 --> 00:05:03,472 Would you be interesting in courting me? 95 00:05:03,847 --> 00:05:04,765 - Yeah, that would be awesome. - Yeah? 96 00:05:05,265 --> 00:05:06,141 [gentle music plays] 97 00:05:06,641 --> 00:05:10,604 Courtship has to be understood in terms of patriarchal authority. 98 00:05:11,146 --> 00:05:15,192 It's about sexual purity, but more than that, it's about control. 99 00:05:15,442 --> 00:05:20,739 When God worked out the ideal society, 100 00:05:21,073 --> 00:05:26,161 one of the things in that ideal society was that the father was responsible 101 00:05:26,495 --> 00:05:29,372 for the purity of the daughter up to the point of marriage. 102 00:05:29,456 --> 00:05:31,541 [somber theme music plays] 103 00:05:31,625 --> 00:05:33,752 [Kristin] It's about a father controlling 104 00:05:33,835 --> 00:05:38,381 his daughter's sexuality, and controlling his children's future. 105 00:05:39,216 --> 00:05:40,467 You may kiss the bride. 106 00:05:42,094 --> 00:05:43,512 [Derick] You had no choice in the fact 107 00:05:43,595 --> 00:05:45,972 that 4.4 million people are watching your wedding. 108 00:05:46,056 --> 00:05:49,851 [Jill] It was the highest rated show at that time that TLC had ever had. 109 00:05:50,519 --> 00:05:51,895 [tense music] 110 00:05:52,187 --> 00:05:56,483 The day before we got married, I signed a contract. 111 00:05:56,566 --> 00:05:58,485 I just saw the signature page. 112 00:05:58,568 --> 00:06:00,737 It was like on the end of the kitchen table, like hey, 113 00:06:00,821 --> 00:06:03,448 we just need you guys to sign these. Like, everybody was signing 'em. 114 00:06:03,532 --> 00:06:05,117 We were literally running through the kitchen, 115 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,202 and it was like whoever you could grab on the way through, 116 00:06:07,285 --> 00:06:08,829 like I didn't know what it was for. 117 00:06:08,954 --> 00:06:11,164 [Producer] Who put it in front of you? 118 00:06:11,706 --> 00:06:12,541 My dad. 119 00:06:13,333 --> 00:06:14,459 [suspenseful theme music plays] 120 00:06:15,377 --> 00:06:18,255 What we found out later was that it was a commitment of your life 121 00:06:18,338 --> 00:06:22,259 - for the next five years to the show. - They had their negotiations, 122 00:06:22,342 --> 00:06:24,719 they had their business meetings, it just wasn't with us. 123 00:06:25,887 --> 00:06:28,598 [Derick] We were just told when to be there what was going on, 124 00:06:28,682 --> 00:06:29,724 what we needed to do. 125 00:06:30,892 --> 00:06:35,856 We had taken a couple pregnancy tests earlier, and we're expecting. 126 00:06:35,939 --> 00:06:37,816 - [all gasping] - [all laughing] 127 00:06:39,067 --> 00:06:43,864 So, 30 days into your marriage, you find out you're, actually- 128 00:06:43,947 --> 00:06:45,532 Tomorrow's our one month anniversary. 129 00:06:45,615 --> 00:06:47,284 [Jill] So a few weeks out from the birth, 130 00:06:47,367 --> 00:06:50,954 the production company, they're like, hey, so we're thinking about the birth. 131 00:06:51,037 --> 00:06:56,459 Are you good with us being, just like one person there, like early labor? 132 00:06:56,543 --> 00:06:58,545 And I was like, well actually, 133 00:06:59,504 --> 00:07:04,843 we don't want you guys there at all. And they're like, like at all? 134 00:07:06,469 --> 00:07:09,598 - And they're shocked, like what? - Whoa. 135 00:07:10,265 --> 00:07:11,099 [yelling] 136 00:07:11,349 --> 00:07:13,018 [Derick] You didn't wanna go through what Anna went through. 137 00:07:14,269 --> 00:07:15,937 We're having a baby right here in the bathroom. 138 00:07:16,021 --> 00:07:17,272 [Michelle] Here's your baby, here's your baby. 139 00:07:18,064 --> 00:07:20,775 Oh, thank you Jesus. Thank you, Jesus. 140 00:07:20,859 --> 00:07:24,279 I knew for sure, I was like nobody's in my delivery room. 141 00:07:24,362 --> 00:07:27,365 Like, nobody, and nobody's there for the labor watching me. 142 00:07:27,449 --> 00:07:28,909 I don't want any of that. 143 00:07:28,992 --> 00:07:33,079 It is 3:43 in the morning, and my water broke. 144 00:07:33,455 --> 00:07:36,833 [Derick] We basically lost, and they're gonna get what they want. 145 00:07:36,917 --> 00:07:40,545 [Jill] They gave us cameras, you know, and they were like, you guys shoot. 146 00:07:40,629 --> 00:07:43,882 We've been laboring for a couple days now, it's Monday. 147 00:07:43,965 --> 00:07:46,468 - [Jill] We did diary cams. - [Derick] Oh yeah, on the tripod. 148 00:07:46,551 --> 00:07:48,011 [Jill] We did a lot of work. 149 00:07:48,887 --> 00:07:51,765 So they still got, you know, the footage. 150 00:07:51,848 --> 00:07:53,934 [suspenseful theme music plays] 151 00:07:54,017 --> 00:07:58,980 The women and girls in this family, they are really the draw of that show. 152 00:07:59,064 --> 00:08:00,565 When they have more babies, 153 00:08:00,649 --> 00:08:02,275 that's how they get a lot of their viewership, 154 00:08:02,359 --> 00:08:04,778 which is actually really similar to the Kardashians. 155 00:08:04,861 --> 00:08:06,196 [Kris Jenner] Oh my gosh. 156 00:08:06,279 --> 00:08:08,990 But the difference is that the Kardashians 157 00:08:09,074 --> 00:08:12,953 are getting remuneration for their participation in the show. 158 00:08:13,036 --> 00:08:15,163 [Jessa] Oh, this is painful. 159 00:08:15,247 --> 00:08:20,627 The Duggar women are doing the labor, literally doing the labor, 160 00:08:20,710 --> 00:08:24,005 but they're really being shut out of who has the money 161 00:08:24,130 --> 00:08:25,465 and who has the power. 162 00:08:25,548 --> 00:08:28,468 - [upbeat theme music plays] - After Israel's birth, 163 00:08:28,551 --> 00:08:32,681 we asked TLC to pay us enough just to cover 164 00:08:32,764 --> 00:08:37,185 what our out of pocket costs were for health insurance for Israel's birth. 165 00:08:37,269 --> 00:08:38,561 [Derick] They said they paid the family. 166 00:08:38,645 --> 00:08:41,147 Paid the family means we don't get anything, at that point. 167 00:08:41,231 --> 00:08:44,526 And they said, well we paid your dad, so take it up with him. 168 00:08:44,609 --> 00:08:47,070 [intense theme music plays] 169 00:08:47,153 --> 00:08:50,532 19 Kids and Counting was a juggernaut for that network, 170 00:08:50,615 --> 00:08:53,201 so it's not like the money wasn't there. 171 00:08:53,285 --> 00:08:57,330 It is normal for the father to take all the money, 172 00:08:57,414 --> 00:09:02,002 because the wife doesn't get it, the children don't get it. 173 00:09:02,085 --> 00:09:05,297 They're under their father's authority, so of course he has it. 174 00:09:06,506 --> 00:09:09,926 [male producer] In the whole run of your time being a star, 175 00:09:10,010 --> 00:09:11,761 did you ever get a distribution? 176 00:09:12,220 --> 00:09:15,932 Mm-mm, no, I never received any payout. 177 00:09:16,766 --> 00:09:18,893 No check, no cash, no nothing. 178 00:09:20,020 --> 00:09:23,064 For 7 and a half years of my adult life, I was never paid. 179 00:09:26,359 --> 00:09:28,278 [dramatic music fades] 180 00:09:28,361 --> 00:09:30,613 [saw buzzing] 181 00:09:31,781 --> 00:09:33,033 [machine sounds] 182 00:09:34,576 --> 00:09:37,370 - [hammer tapping] - [gentle theme music plays] 183 00:09:37,454 --> 00:09:40,957 [Michelle] I'm just amazed at what can get done with a group of children 184 00:09:41,041 --> 00:09:45,211 that are willing to work, and every one of those children are out there 185 00:09:45,295 --> 00:09:49,799 sweating and working, and some of the hardest working people you will ever meet. 186 00:09:50,633 --> 00:09:57,057 It was expected that you would serve for the benefit of serving alone. 187 00:09:58,183 --> 00:10:00,727 [Bill voice over] And there are many, many ministry opportunities 188 00:10:00,810 --> 00:10:02,729 that are out there for your sons and daughters, 189 00:10:02,812 --> 00:10:03,813 and we want you to avail yourself… 190 00:10:03,897 --> 00:10:06,858 These families, they had loving parents who wanted the best for their kids, 191 00:10:06,941 --> 00:10:09,027 but who still believed my son, my daughter 192 00:10:09,110 --> 00:10:11,946 can go work at any of the different programs 193 00:10:12,030 --> 00:10:15,408 that's offered under this giant IBLP umbrella. 194 00:10:15,492 --> 00:10:18,661 [Chad] The programs that you could participate in range from a week or two, 195 00:10:18,745 --> 00:10:22,040 like a summer camp, all the way to several months, 196 00:10:22,457 --> 00:10:25,543 to several years if you were working in the training centers. 197 00:10:25,627 --> 00:10:29,798 At the training centers, it's usually kids in their late teens, early twenties, 198 00:10:29,923 --> 00:10:33,176 who would be going to college, but have basically been convinced 199 00:10:33,259 --> 00:10:36,137 that college is a useless waste of humanism brainwashing. 200 00:10:36,221 --> 00:10:40,183 What the parents didn't realize is what they were signing their kid up to 201 00:10:40,266 --> 00:10:44,813 were horribly long hours, where they would be working 15, 16 hours a day. 202 00:10:45,688 --> 00:10:49,359 Bill Gothard's like hey, have your kids join my homeschool program, 203 00:10:49,442 --> 00:10:53,321 and then afterwards, send them to work for me for free. 204 00:10:53,405 --> 00:10:57,992 When Josh was away at the IBLP facility, they were doing construction work there. 205 00:10:58,076 --> 00:11:00,161 Yeah, that was one of his punishments. 206 00:11:01,287 --> 00:11:05,333 We were expected to help with the conferences, the work to set up… 207 00:11:05,417 --> 00:11:10,588 …tear down. Entire civic centers would be transformed 208 00:11:10,672 --> 00:11:16,469 into these IBLP oases with the red carpets, and the potted plants. 209 00:11:16,553 --> 00:11:19,097 Gothard loved some potted plants. 210 00:11:19,180 --> 00:11:22,851 This was manual labor being performed by children, 211 00:11:22,934 --> 00:11:25,937 and this was not an uncommon thing. This was everywhere. 212 00:11:27,439 --> 00:11:31,276 It is almost impossible to describe what IBLP looks like. 213 00:11:31,359 --> 00:11:35,572 It's in every home, but there's a headquarters, 214 00:11:35,655 --> 00:11:38,450 and then there's all the training centers all over the place, and it got bigger, 215 00:11:38,533 --> 00:11:41,828 and bigger, bigger, more and more and more programs. 216 00:11:41,953 --> 00:11:44,956 So there's like one training center for Character First, 217 00:11:45,039 --> 00:11:47,876 and then there's one for Excel, and then there's one for Commit, 218 00:11:47,958 --> 00:11:49,752 and there's one for Telos, and there's one for Alert, 219 00:11:49,836 --> 00:11:52,964 and there's one for Verity, and Sound Foundations, 220 00:11:53,047 --> 00:11:55,425 and all these different branches that they have, 221 00:11:55,508 --> 00:11:58,845 and each one functions a different way, and they're everywhere. 222 00:11:58,928 --> 00:12:00,763 It's super confusing. 223 00:12:00,847 --> 00:12:03,016 Bill Gothard loves acronyms. 224 00:12:03,099 --> 00:12:05,894 There's IBLP, the Institute of Basic Life Principles. 225 00:12:05,977 --> 00:12:09,105 There's ATI, the Advanced Training Institute. 226 00:12:09,189 --> 00:12:12,192 There's EQUIP, which I don't remember what it stands for. 227 00:12:12,275 --> 00:12:14,903 There's Commit, Excel, Alert, 228 00:12:14,986 --> 00:12:18,072 and I think that they're a way of confusing people. 229 00:12:18,156 --> 00:12:24,037 So you know, Alert sounds really cool. 230 00:12:24,662 --> 00:12:29,292 A militia of homeschooled boys sounds a little scarier. 231 00:12:29,751 --> 00:12:33,129 - All unit 63! - Hoorah! 232 00:12:33,713 --> 00:12:37,634 [Chad] Alert is Gothard's paramilitary organization, 233 00:12:37,717 --> 00:12:42,347 very deeply steeped in IBLP'S teachings on authority. 234 00:12:43,097 --> 00:12:45,517 [male narrator through recording] Our God is a God of order. 235 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,896 He will continue to guide and control all that He has planned for our future. 236 00:12:51,147 --> 00:12:54,651 [Heather] I don't think our parents realized how intense it was, 237 00:12:54,984 --> 00:12:58,279 or that anything terrible was happening at these places. 238 00:12:59,364 --> 00:13:02,158 They controlled every single thing that we did. 239 00:13:02,242 --> 00:13:05,370 If you were in trouble, they would lock you in the prayer room 240 00:13:05,453 --> 00:13:08,748 for hours, up to days, up to weeks. 241 00:13:09,707 --> 00:13:12,710 It was just an empty hotel room with no furniture, 242 00:13:12,794 --> 00:13:15,505 and they would give you a Bible 243 00:13:15,588 --> 00:13:18,925 until they thought you were appropriately repentant, 244 00:13:19,008 --> 00:13:24,389 and that was wildly up to other kids, team leaders. 245 00:13:25,056 --> 00:13:27,392 [male narrator] When the team leader raises three fingers, 246 00:13:27,475 --> 00:13:30,186 the children know that it is time to smile. 247 00:13:30,562 --> 00:13:33,565 [Lara] My worst stay there, 248 00:13:33,648 --> 00:13:37,402 my team leader did not like the shoes that I had worn. 249 00:13:37,485 --> 00:13:41,906 They had a bit of a heel on them, and that wasn't against the rules, 250 00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:43,741 but she personally just didn't like it, 251 00:13:43,825 --> 00:13:46,703 and thought it was sinful and distracting to the men. 252 00:13:46,786 --> 00:13:48,788 And by a bit of a heel, I mean. 253 00:13:50,123 --> 00:13:53,710 I was in the prayer room for four days, I think. 254 00:13:54,794 --> 00:13:58,214 I was 16. It was just a nightmare, yeah. 255 00:14:00,341 --> 00:14:04,679 Every two weeks we would go to Walmart. I bought a box of tampons. 256 00:14:05,096 --> 00:14:09,475 When you get back, they go through your stuff, and they took them instantly, 257 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,855 and I couldn't have them anymore. They were like, these are a form of pleasure. 258 00:14:13,938 --> 00:14:18,067 And I got locked in my room, because I took my own virginity with them, 259 00:14:18,192 --> 00:14:21,613 and like robbed my husband of the right to break my hymen, you know? 260 00:14:21,696 --> 00:14:23,865 So they took my devil sticks. 261 00:14:25,992 --> 00:14:27,368 [Floyd] You'd go through these sessions 262 00:14:27,452 --> 00:14:30,371 where they would grill you on what you did wrong, 263 00:14:30,455 --> 00:14:31,998 and how you could do it better, 264 00:14:32,081 --> 00:14:35,208 and over and over, be forced to confess. 265 00:14:35,835 --> 00:14:41,883 Shame was a tool that really kept all of us in line. 266 00:14:42,383 --> 00:14:47,388 I feel like shame, uh, was killing me. 267 00:14:48,723 --> 00:14:51,976 At the Oklahoma City Training Center, they sealed the windows shut 268 00:14:52,060 --> 00:14:55,938 so that we couldn't go out on the ledge, and attempt to commit suicide. 269 00:14:56,981 --> 00:15:02,737 One day, I see my housemate with a big knife to her throat. 270 00:15:03,696 --> 00:15:05,615 She's like, the Bible says that it is better 271 00:15:05,698 --> 00:15:09,118 to put a knife to your throat than to be a glutton. 272 00:15:09,202 --> 00:15:13,164 Wait, what, what? This Bible verse brought you to this place? 273 00:15:14,165 --> 00:15:20,838 They worried about us becoming the best godly females for our husbands. 274 00:15:20,922 --> 00:15:24,467 So it was about, you know, this maintaining of your weight. 275 00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:28,763 We had people right in front of us that needed the biggest help, 276 00:15:28,846 --> 00:15:31,391 and all we ever did was throw prayer at them. 277 00:15:32,392 --> 00:15:34,102 We were all brainwashed by Bill. 278 00:15:35,687 --> 00:15:37,689 Mr. Gothard lived everywhere. 279 00:15:37,772 --> 00:15:40,149 He would visit all of the training centers, just all of the time. 280 00:15:41,234 --> 00:15:46,406 Gothard flitted about the country, and really the world, like a celebrity. 281 00:15:46,489 --> 00:15:47,949 [people chattering] 282 00:15:48,032 --> 00:15:50,785 Mr. Gothard had always projected this image 283 00:15:50,868 --> 00:15:55,957 that he only took a very small portion of money, he drove a very old car. 284 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:01,212 I found out that the entire Gothard family was living incredibly extravagantly 285 00:16:01,295 --> 00:16:03,047 off of the Institute's money. 286 00:16:03,715 --> 00:16:08,261 He came across as authentic, but IBLP is modeling the exact opposite 287 00:16:08,344 --> 00:16:10,304 of everything that it claims to represent. 288 00:16:11,013 --> 00:16:13,266 Instead of simplicity, you're gonna see planes, 289 00:16:13,391 --> 00:16:15,268 you're gonna see gold-plated hallways. 290 00:16:15,727 --> 00:16:21,816 My family struggled to pay for this seminar because it was very expensive, 291 00:16:22,108 --> 00:16:25,194 and the homeschool program was very expensive. 292 00:16:26,195 --> 00:16:31,868 Bill Gothard used IBLP families to grow the Institute 293 00:16:31,951 --> 00:16:39,542 into this huge organization with real political power, and connections. 294 00:16:39,625 --> 00:16:42,754 - [intense theme music plays] - At the various training centers, 295 00:16:42,879 --> 00:16:45,423 a lot of the things that they were doing was election campaigning 296 00:16:45,506 --> 00:16:49,844 for candidates that Bill Gothard had an interest in seeing elected. 297 00:16:49,969 --> 00:16:53,389 He was connecting with politicians. 298 00:16:53,514 --> 00:16:58,561 Mike Huckabee, Sarah Palin, Sonny Perdue, Rick Perry. 299 00:16:59,395 --> 00:17:06,861 IBLP's biggest donor is David Green, who is the CEO of Hobby Lobby. 300 00:17:07,277 --> 00:17:10,907 Obviously in our culture, you've seen a lot of deterioration of character, 301 00:17:10,989 --> 00:17:13,868 and so it should be obvious to just about any businessman 302 00:17:13,993 --> 00:17:16,787 that this is a a great need. 303 00:17:16,871 --> 00:17:22,001 A lot of the training centers they had were gifts from local governments. 304 00:17:22,794 --> 00:17:26,046 City officials have a lot of money that they can disperse, 305 00:17:26,464 --> 00:17:29,592 and when Gothard found this out, he ended up sticking his fingers 306 00:17:30,009 --> 00:17:33,346 into this government tax money pie. 307 00:17:33,763 --> 00:17:37,475 Now, our look at the family and a movement in communities around the country 308 00:17:37,558 --> 00:17:41,521 to teach morality as part of the public school curriculum. 309 00:17:41,604 --> 00:17:45,983 [Brooke] Bill Gothard's teachings have been used in public schools. 310 00:17:46,067 --> 00:17:47,068 [male news reporter] Gothard freely admits 311 00:17:47,151 --> 00:17:49,987 he wants the 10 Commandments back in public schools, 312 00:17:50,071 --> 00:17:53,616 but insists Character First, which contains no overt reference, 313 00:17:53,699 --> 00:17:56,786 to God or the Bible is not a backdoor way of doing so. 314 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,289 [Heather] The Oklahoma Training Center, the first two weeks were spent teaching us 315 00:18:00,373 --> 00:18:03,543 how to gaslight children into Bible studies. 316 00:18:03,626 --> 00:18:04,836 [male news reporter] These are Character Coaches. 317 00:18:04,961 --> 00:18:06,295 We didn't need their parents permission, 318 00:18:06,379 --> 00:18:09,507 and we were absolutely indoctrinating them. 319 00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:11,008 [male news reporter] Critics claim the lessons 320 00:18:11,092 --> 00:18:13,261 teach blind obedience to authority. 321 00:18:13,344 --> 00:18:16,389 His teachings had made it into private prisons. 322 00:18:16,806 --> 00:18:22,103 Correction Corporation America has this program in 28 of their facilities. 323 00:18:22,687 --> 00:18:25,022 This year, they're gonna put it in 12 more. 324 00:18:25,314 --> 00:18:29,527 This is why I came to prison, for these teachings that I'm learning right now. 325 00:18:29,610 --> 00:18:30,653 [intense theme music plays] 326 00:18:31,070 --> 00:18:32,613 [Josh] So at this point in time, 327 00:18:32,697 --> 00:18:35,491 the IBLP teachings in some areas are beginning to spread 328 00:18:35,575 --> 00:18:37,410 into the military, and into the police. 329 00:18:37,493 --> 00:18:39,620 It's just what soldiers need to have with them. 330 00:18:41,330 --> 00:18:44,125 If all the layers of authority are lined up correctly, 331 00:18:44,208 --> 00:18:49,297 the one in authority should simply have to speak, and it should get done. 332 00:18:50,882 --> 00:18:55,595 ATI was not just an academic curriculum. World domination was the goal. 333 00:18:56,262 --> 00:18:59,807 They had training centers in Russia, New Zealand, Australia. 334 00:18:59,891 --> 00:19:02,894 Mexico, Malaysia, the Philippines, Singapore. 335 00:19:03,019 --> 00:19:04,395 They are taking this stuff everywhere. 336 00:19:05,021 --> 00:19:08,065 Coming up next on 19 Kids and Counting. 337 00:19:08,149 --> 00:19:09,567 [Derick ] We're getting ready to go on this big trip 338 00:19:09,650 --> 00:19:10,902 to the other side of the world. 339 00:19:11,485 --> 00:19:14,238 [Josh] Reality TV, to me, is a very powerful force. 340 00:19:14,322 --> 00:19:17,950 19 Kids and Counting becomes a recruiting tool for the Institute. 341 00:19:18,034 --> 00:19:19,285 [male TV narrator] Discovery Networks, 342 00:19:19,368 --> 00:19:22,997 with more than 1.5 billion global subscribers. 343 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:30,171 These programs have built TLC Discovery into this international empire. 344 00:19:30,296 --> 00:19:33,132 They've given us the ability to really use a show 345 00:19:33,215 --> 00:19:36,093 to include a lot of Bible principles that we live by, 346 00:19:36,344 --> 00:19:38,930 and it's actually through TLC, it's gone around the world. 347 00:19:39,013 --> 00:19:41,974 They've taken the family on all these international trips. 348 00:19:43,351 --> 00:19:45,561 [Jim Bob speaks Spanish ] 349 00:19:45,645 --> 00:19:46,854 [people laughing] 350 00:19:46,938 --> 00:19:49,649 [Brooke ] A lot of the older show was fish out of water stories. 351 00:19:49,732 --> 00:19:52,318 [Jim Bob through recording] We're getting ready to go on a Japanese TV show. 352 00:19:52,401 --> 00:19:54,445 [Michelle through recording] This definitely was much different 353 00:19:54,528 --> 00:19:56,197 than what we were accustomed to. 354 00:19:56,656 --> 00:19:57,949 [speaking Japanese] Konichiwa! 355 00:19:58,032 --> 00:19:59,033 [Jim Bob] What's your faith background? 356 00:19:59,158 --> 00:20:02,078 I don't really, kinda, believe in God. 357 00:20:02,536 --> 00:20:04,246 He's got a plan for your life, and He loves you, 358 00:20:04,622 --> 00:20:05,998 and we just have to repent from our sin, 359 00:20:06,082 --> 00:20:08,459 turn to Him, give Him the control of our life. 360 00:20:08,542 --> 00:20:09,710 - Cheers! Thank you, man, thank you. - Thank you. 361 00:20:09,794 --> 00:20:10,795 That was impressive. 362 00:20:10,878 --> 00:20:12,922 [Jim Bob] All right guys, let's go invade the castle. 363 00:20:13,297 --> 00:20:15,591 [tense theme music plays] 364 00:20:16,926 --> 00:20:17,802 [music crescendos] 365 00:20:17,885 --> 00:20:22,056 In 2016, we were living in El Salvador at the time, doing mission work. 366 00:20:22,848 --> 00:20:25,226 Jim Bob just gotten the show back up and going 367 00:20:25,309 --> 00:20:26,185 with Jill and Jessa: Counting On. 368 00:20:26,644 --> 00:20:28,729 We're sitting in our new home in Central America. 369 00:20:29,230 --> 00:20:31,148 We're so blessed to be here with our little family. 370 00:20:31,816 --> 00:20:35,111 [Jill] TLC was pressing us about coming back for a shoot. 371 00:20:35,945 --> 00:20:38,280 It's called Jill and Jessa: Counting On. You can't not come. 372 00:20:38,364 --> 00:20:39,991 Like, we have to do this, the pressure was on. 373 00:20:40,074 --> 00:20:43,285 We said, news to us, like why are you so surprised that we can't come? 374 00:20:43,369 --> 00:20:44,829 We said we're here for 10 months. 375 00:20:45,413 --> 00:20:47,373 You guys have been coming down here filming us. 376 00:20:47,456 --> 00:20:50,042 Now it's a matter of principle, like we're gonna be here. 377 00:20:50,543 --> 00:20:52,003 [Derick speaks Spanish] Patience. 378 00:20:52,253 --> 00:20:56,424 That was like the first time that we really put our foot down, and said no. 379 00:20:56,507 --> 00:21:00,386 I'd never said no to my family before, and just been like, no, no, no. 380 00:21:00,469 --> 00:21:03,597 We cannot do what you're asking us to do. 381 00:21:03,681 --> 00:21:06,434 And it was one of those like a-ha moments for us 382 00:21:06,517 --> 00:21:10,521 that basically they're like, well you have to. 383 00:21:10,604 --> 00:21:13,190 [intense theme music plays] 384 00:21:14,191 --> 00:21:17,111 [Jill] My dad sends us the signature page, 385 00:21:17,194 --> 00:21:21,115 along with like just the obligation section of the contract. 386 00:21:21,407 --> 00:21:24,076 I was like, somebody forged my signature, I'm sure of it. 387 00:21:24,201 --> 00:21:26,620 And then I look at it and I'm like, that is my signature. 388 00:21:27,496 --> 00:21:30,291 And that's when we realized that I had signed this 389 00:21:30,374 --> 00:21:33,461 the day before we got married. It's so exciting, Pops. 390 00:21:33,544 --> 00:21:35,838 And then I'm like, "Oh I remember that. 391 00:21:35,963 --> 00:21:37,465 That's not what I thought I was signing." 392 00:21:37,548 --> 00:21:39,467 We never gave our word that we're generally 393 00:21:39,550 --> 00:21:41,635 gonna be committed to anything. This was fraud. 394 00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:46,098 [Jill] And I'm freaking out, 'cause now we're aware of this contract. 395 00:21:46,182 --> 00:21:49,268 Like, does it hold any water? Are we gonna get off the plane, 396 00:21:49,351 --> 00:21:53,147 and they're arrest us because we've violated something? 397 00:21:53,230 --> 00:21:56,108 Because if we're giving up something, then we should get something in return. 398 00:21:56,525 --> 00:21:59,779 Jim Bob said, "Well what do you want, like $10 an hour?" 399 00:21:59,862 --> 00:22:01,363 And I said, "I don't know, what's it worth?" 400 00:22:01,489 --> 00:22:05,117 And he's like, "Well, what's your price?" I said, "What's it worth?" 401 00:22:05,201 --> 00:22:06,660 He goes, "What's your price?" "What's it worth?" 402 00:22:06,744 --> 00:22:08,204 He's like, "I could pay you $10 an hour." 403 00:22:08,287 --> 00:22:09,872 [dramatic theme music plays] 404 00:22:10,706 --> 00:22:13,292 - That's when we asked to talk to TLC. - [Jill] Chad said something about… 405 00:22:13,375 --> 00:22:14,293 [Derick] Chad reached out and said, 406 00:22:14,376 --> 00:22:15,377 "You can't talk to them without me on the phone." 407 00:22:15,461 --> 00:22:17,463 "Without me on there, because the contract's not with you. 408 00:22:17,546 --> 00:22:20,382 It's through your dad, and I'm his representative, 409 00:22:20,466 --> 00:22:22,843 so I have to be involved in these conversations." 410 00:22:22,927 --> 00:22:24,678 - And we were not able to talk to TLC. - Yeah. 411 00:22:24,762 --> 00:22:27,264 Honestly they probably would think if you have a problem with it, 412 00:22:27,348 --> 00:22:30,392 you'd speak up. But it's not the boat that I was in. 413 00:22:32,019 --> 00:22:34,814 [female reporter] Family relies on food banks… 414 00:22:35,815 --> 00:22:40,027 We have Jill Duggar, who is saying she never made a dime. 415 00:22:40,111 --> 00:22:45,116 That she even had to, at one point, rely on food banks t help feed her family. 416 00:22:46,117 --> 00:22:49,286 [Jill] Around that time my dad said, 417 00:22:49,370 --> 00:22:52,039 "Thanks to Derick, I'm gonna go ahead and pay some people, 418 00:22:52,123 --> 00:22:54,583 pay some of the older kids, a lump sum." 419 00:22:54,667 --> 00:22:55,835 Something that we could work… 420 00:22:55,918 --> 00:22:57,628 He said some of the boys are getting to the point 421 00:22:57,711 --> 00:22:59,338 where they wanna start businesses and stuff, 422 00:22:59,421 --> 00:23:01,882 so I think it's good timing, and blah blah blah. 423 00:23:01,966 --> 00:23:05,177 [Derick] The amount that he ended up paying in a lump sum to each person, 424 00:23:05,302 --> 00:23:08,139 I don't think it would be a coincidence that that would be very 425 00:23:08,222 --> 00:23:10,599 close to what minimum wage would be up to 18. 426 00:23:10,683 --> 00:23:16,522 But, in order to receive that, you had to sign another deal with my dad, 427 00:23:17,064 --> 00:23:21,569 his production company, Mad Family Inc., that would be like, forever. 428 00:23:22,695 --> 00:23:24,947 We were automatically like, we're done. 429 00:23:25,906 --> 00:23:27,992 We found out on social media that our relationship, 430 00:23:28,075 --> 00:23:31,579 if we ever had a relationship with TLC, came to an end at that time. 431 00:23:33,497 --> 00:23:36,625 It was a difficult decision, but something that we knew 432 00:23:36,709 --> 00:23:38,878 we really needed to do for our family. 433 00:23:38,961 --> 00:23:40,838 Do you regret leaving the show? 434 00:23:40,921 --> 00:23:42,882 - [both] No. - We're not on the best terms 435 00:23:42,965 --> 00:23:47,428 with some of my family. Um. We've had some disagreements and stuff. 436 00:23:47,595 --> 00:23:52,224 We don't wanna just be like, oh they're sorry, so we should just move on, 437 00:23:52,308 --> 00:23:54,518 and everything's okay, and basically nothing change. 438 00:23:54,602 --> 00:23:57,980 It's obviously hard when there's continued stuff happening. 439 00:23:58,063 --> 00:24:01,609 [Derick] When I got threats, like someone reached out anonymously 440 00:24:01,692 --> 00:24:05,487 on a very lengthy text message, it was just bizarre. 441 00:24:05,571 --> 00:24:08,449 [eerie theme music plays] 442 00:24:08,574 --> 00:24:10,534 Somebody who claimed to be a true friend, 443 00:24:10,618 --> 00:24:12,703 why are you anonymous using a burner phone, then? He wants… 444 00:24:12,786 --> 00:24:14,788 [male producer] Did Jim Bob send you that text message? 445 00:24:14,872 --> 00:24:17,666 - I don't know, I can't speculate. - [Jill] I don't think so. 446 00:24:17,791 --> 00:24:18,876 [dramatic theme music plays] 447 00:24:19,126 --> 00:24:23,339 I did report it to the police department, and shared exactly what the threat was. 448 00:24:26,383 --> 00:24:30,471 [Jill] It's just like, this whole culture. I don't know, the fear and lack of trust. 449 00:24:30,554 --> 00:24:33,849 Disobedience doesn't mean dishonor, like you're dishonoring me 450 00:24:33,933 --> 00:24:35,309 just because you don't agree exactly with what I think. 451 00:24:35,392 --> 00:24:36,727 We don't bless what you're doing, 452 00:24:36,810 --> 00:24:38,854 so therefore you have to do what we want you to do. 453 00:24:38,938 --> 00:24:42,816 Honor, and respect, and obey were all on the same level back then. 454 00:24:44,401 --> 00:24:47,947 - [eerie theme music plays] - In the culture that Gothard created, 455 00:24:48,030 --> 00:24:52,701 there is an unchecked power dynamic at play, and whenever that happens, 456 00:24:52,785 --> 00:24:56,080 you're going to start seeing some form of abuse. 457 00:24:56,789 --> 00:24:58,874 [Floyd] The idea that your parents are your ultimate authority 458 00:24:58,958 --> 00:25:00,709 wasn't necessarily true, 459 00:25:00,793 --> 00:25:03,420 because it was whoever was in charge of you at that moment. 460 00:25:03,504 --> 00:25:07,925 Basically, the oldest male present was in charge. 461 00:25:08,509 --> 00:25:10,010 When I was at a training center, 462 00:25:10,302 --> 00:25:15,849 one of the boys who was in charge of the maintenance at the training center, 463 00:25:16,350 --> 00:25:20,521 one night he came in, and he climbs in my bed. 464 00:25:21,313 --> 00:25:27,403 I didn't know how to say, "I don't want you in my bed, get out please," 465 00:25:27,486 --> 00:25:33,909 because I'd never been taught that. And not only that, but any back talk 466 00:25:34,285 --> 00:25:41,500 was beat out of us at a young age. So, I can say with experience 467 00:25:41,583 --> 00:25:44,420 that sexual assault and training centers 468 00:25:44,503 --> 00:25:50,426 within the Institute, under Bill Gothard, is very real and rampant. 469 00:25:50,509 --> 00:25:53,846 [somber theme music plays] 470 00:25:53,971 --> 00:25:59,852 Bill Gothard had actually been the subject of a sex scandal back in 1980. 471 00:26:00,811 --> 00:26:06,775 Steve Gothard, Bill's brother, was using his position of power in IBLP 472 00:26:06,859 --> 00:26:12,406 to sexually harass women, and to coerce them into performing sex acts on him. 473 00:26:12,489 --> 00:26:14,992 [eerie theme music plays] 474 00:26:15,075 --> 00:26:20,331 People are coming forward and saying that Steve has sexually abused, 475 00:26:20,414 --> 00:26:23,417 and harassed multiple people in the office. 476 00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:28,922 And so what Bill did was take his brother, sends him out to a campus 477 00:26:29,006 --> 00:26:33,260 that has even less oversight than the main campus does… 478 00:26:33,969 --> 00:26:36,764 and then leaves Steve to basically do whatever he wants out there. 479 00:26:37,389 --> 00:26:38,807 [male narrator] Northwoods Conference Center 480 00:26:38,891 --> 00:26:42,978 in the upper peninsula of Michigan. Tubing, kayaking, and hiking 481 00:26:43,062 --> 00:26:46,106 were just a few of the many activities they were able to enjoy. 482 00:26:47,232 --> 00:26:50,778 There is a landing strip for the Learjet that they owned. 483 00:26:51,362 --> 00:26:55,699 [Brooke] Girls who disobeyed Bill got sent to Steve in the Northwoods. 484 00:26:56,825 --> 00:27:01,830 At one point, Bill Gothard is caught with a young woman in a cabin, 485 00:27:01,914 --> 00:27:06,043 and so this kind of comes to a head, and Gothard and his brother 486 00:27:06,126 --> 00:27:09,171 are confronted by everyone who's working for them. 487 00:27:10,798 --> 00:27:14,301 Bill keeps trying to find ways to keep Steve in the organization, 488 00:27:14,385 --> 00:27:18,889 and one of his solutions is, why don't we just have him marry one of the women? 489 00:27:18,972 --> 00:27:24,103 And when you try to get an understanding of what was going on in this culture, 490 00:27:24,186 --> 00:27:27,731 and how were women viewed, and how is sexuality viewed… 491 00:27:28,273 --> 00:27:30,275 …That story is terrifying. 492 00:27:31,193 --> 00:27:33,320 And even at the time, that was so out there 493 00:27:33,404 --> 00:27:36,573 that even his own board was like, no, that does not fix this. 494 00:27:36,657 --> 00:27:38,659 Even by their standard, that was too far. 495 00:27:39,827 --> 00:27:44,581 [Brooke] In kind of a compromise, what Bill Gothard ends up deciding to do 496 00:27:44,706 --> 00:27:48,836 is to get rid of Steve, but he came up with this new teaching. 497 00:27:48,919 --> 00:27:51,672 It's the Matthew 18 teaching. 498 00:27:52,172 --> 00:27:55,134 Calling this biblical, basing it on Matthew 18, 499 00:27:55,217 --> 00:27:58,595 making it impermissible to gossip, 500 00:27:58,679 --> 00:28:03,642 which means making allegations against leaders, in particular. 501 00:28:03,725 --> 00:28:07,104 This is also part of the Duggar's commitments. 502 00:28:07,604 --> 00:28:11,567 Praise publicly, and if you have something negative to say, 503 00:28:11,692 --> 00:28:14,445 just go to that person privately. 504 00:28:14,528 --> 00:28:17,322 [Kristin] This culture is shaped in a way 505 00:28:17,656 --> 00:28:22,995 that makes abuse incredibly difficult to report for women, 506 00:28:23,495 --> 00:28:26,373 for other members of the community. They really have no recourse. 507 00:28:26,957 --> 00:28:28,041 [dramatic theme music plays] 508 00:28:28,876 --> 00:28:31,545 [Emily] I do remember listening to some of the sessions 509 00:28:31,753 --> 00:28:34,339 that Michelle and Jim Bob did together. 510 00:28:35,132 --> 00:28:38,510 I wished that my parents had had the kind of marriage 511 00:28:38,594 --> 00:28:43,474 that I thought Michelle and Jim Bob had, or at least they were showing. 512 00:28:45,058 --> 00:28:49,146 When I was about 10 years old, my family really shattered apart. 513 00:28:50,063 --> 00:28:52,524 [somber theme music plays] 514 00:28:52,733 --> 00:28:55,235 My father molested me. 515 00:29:00,616 --> 00:29:06,288 A lot of people ask me if my mother was aware of the abuse going on. 516 00:29:06,371 --> 00:29:13,337 She knew our family was in great danger, but my mother was in a cult too. 517 00:29:14,671 --> 00:29:19,468 When Bill first spotted me, I was 13 years old, and he was 71. 518 00:29:20,260 --> 00:29:25,474 He asked as soon as I turned 14 for me to quit homeschool, 519 00:29:25,557 --> 00:29:30,479 to move up to Chicago, and live at headquarters indefinitely. 520 00:29:31,396 --> 00:29:35,192 Bill took one of his female assistants. 521 00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:41,031 He pointed at me, and he looked her straight in the eye, 522 00:29:41,114 --> 00:29:43,909 and he said, "Don't let this one go." 523 00:29:44,284 --> 00:29:47,454 - [unintelligible background chatter] - As time goes on… 524 00:29:48,121 --> 00:29:51,166 …It becomes very obvious that Bill Gothard has like, a type. 525 00:29:51,875 --> 00:29:55,754 It was kind of the rumor that like, the blonde girls get picked. 526 00:29:55,837 --> 00:29:57,714 [male narrator] One of the most exciting ministries 527 00:29:57,798 --> 00:30:01,802 the Lord has entrusted to the Institute this year is the Journey to the Heart. 528 00:30:02,553 --> 00:30:05,097 Students on the journey also receive training, 529 00:30:05,180 --> 00:30:07,224 and one-on-one counsel from Mr. Gothard. 530 00:30:08,517 --> 00:30:12,479 Journey to the Heart was a 10 day camp. Mr. Gothard would be there, 531 00:30:12,563 --> 00:30:14,773 teaching these lessons throughout the day. 532 00:30:14,856 --> 00:30:19,444 Every person that came on a Journey to the Heart had a meeting with him. 533 00:30:19,528 --> 00:30:20,904 Every single person. 534 00:30:20,988 --> 00:30:23,657 Journey to the Heart seems to me like a vetting process 535 00:30:23,740 --> 00:30:27,536 for like, which types do I like to invite for further long-term things? 536 00:30:27,661 --> 00:30:29,454 Like, learn more about their vulnerabilities, 537 00:30:29,538 --> 00:30:31,415 because you're gonna learn those things through an interview. 538 00:30:31,915 --> 00:30:34,918 - [bells chiming] - [Lindsey] I was 18 when I met him. 539 00:30:35,836 --> 00:30:39,089 I go into a room, it was kind of a dark room. 540 00:30:39,172 --> 00:30:40,090 [suspenseful theme music plays] 541 00:30:40,173 --> 00:30:42,926 I'm in there, his assistant's sitting over in the corner, 542 00:30:43,010 --> 00:30:47,306 Bill Gothard's sitting at his desk. It just felt ominous, and intimidating. 543 00:30:47,389 --> 00:30:48,515 [music intensifies] 544 00:30:49,266 --> 00:30:52,978 He basically just kind of leans back with this sort of like, he's admiring you. 545 00:30:54,479 --> 00:30:59,484 "Well Lindsey, so glad you're here. 546 00:31:00,611 --> 00:31:02,112 I would love for you to come to headquarters. 547 00:31:02,195 --> 00:31:04,740 Would you like to come and work at headquarters?" 548 00:31:04,823 --> 00:31:09,453 Now, I don't know how to put enough emphasis on this, 549 00:31:09,661 --> 00:31:12,873 headquarters was the shit. 550 00:31:12,956 --> 00:31:17,628 You could not get any higher than working at headquarters, especially as a female. 551 00:31:18,295 --> 00:31:21,214 And if this is what Gothard wants, this is what God wants. 552 00:31:21,298 --> 00:31:26,053 You want a future? Then fulfill our special calling. 553 00:31:26,219 --> 00:31:29,264 Meeting Bill Gothard is like meeting the pope, the president, 554 00:31:29,348 --> 00:31:31,433 and Justin Bieber all rolled into one. 555 00:31:31,516 --> 00:31:36,480 I just have gotta be the most blessed person I know. 556 00:31:36,605 --> 00:31:41,276 He does have an odd physical appearance. You know, he's got a Lego-shaped head, 557 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,404 and his ill-fitting Men's Warehouse suit. 558 00:31:44,488 --> 00:31:47,074 He can just draw anybody in. [scoffs] 559 00:31:47,157 --> 00:31:49,159 It's like watching the snake in The Jungle Book. 560 00:31:49,826 --> 00:31:52,371 ♪ Trust in me ♪ 561 00:31:53,747 --> 00:31:59,503 Husbands, treat her like a china teacup, not a coffee mug. 562 00:32:01,088 --> 00:32:02,214 Bill never married. 563 00:32:02,631 --> 00:32:09,221 Repopulate the nation with godly sons and daughters. Now is the time. 564 00:32:09,304 --> 00:32:12,307 And he never had any children. 565 00:32:12,391 --> 00:32:17,145 I just made up my mind that I would never kiss a girl 566 00:32:18,105 --> 00:32:22,192 until I was at that wedding night. 567 00:32:22,275 --> 00:32:23,985 - Never been married. - Yes. 568 00:32:24,069 --> 00:32:25,570 - Never had children. - Yes. 569 00:32:25,654 --> 00:32:29,574 - But yet, he has this entire plan… - Of like, how to model a family. 570 00:32:29,658 --> 00:32:31,201 But that's how you're trying to model a family, 571 00:32:31,284 --> 00:32:33,578 but he's never been a husband, or a parent? 572 00:32:34,454 --> 00:32:35,288 Yes. 573 00:32:35,664 --> 00:32:37,708 I don't think anyone ever questioned it. 574 00:32:38,875 --> 00:32:42,087 I mean, he got his revelations directly from God, so. 575 00:32:44,047 --> 00:32:46,091 [gentle theme music plays] 576 00:32:48,552 --> 00:32:51,930 You would get chosen to ride in Mr. Gothard's van. 577 00:32:53,014 --> 00:32:55,767 All of us were under 18. 578 00:32:57,352 --> 00:32:59,980 He would always have a girl next to him. 579 00:33:00,230 --> 00:33:08,238 There was always petting to heavy petting, his hand on knees, up skirts. 580 00:33:09,156 --> 00:33:11,742 - We never talked about it. - [dramatic music plays] 581 00:33:11,867 --> 00:33:16,288 I knew it was weird, but I didn't know it was wrong. 582 00:33:16,913 --> 00:33:18,749 He didn't need to test our boundaries 583 00:33:18,832 --> 00:33:23,003 because our boundaries had been tested in so many other ways 584 00:33:23,086 --> 00:33:26,798 and we had already been proven faithful, in a sense. 585 00:33:28,675 --> 00:33:32,471 [Emily] When I was 18, I finally ended up at headquarters. 586 00:33:33,972 --> 00:33:36,475 Bill called my father and he's like, 587 00:33:36,558 --> 00:33:42,564 "So your daughter explains to me that she wants to learn how to respect her father." 588 00:33:42,981 --> 00:33:46,485 And as he said it, Bill looked at me and winked. 589 00:33:47,819 --> 00:33:52,699 Then when Bill talked to me, he made my dad out to be the villain, 590 00:33:52,949 --> 00:34:00,791 and proceeded to tell me that my father had lost all authority over me, 591 00:34:01,333 --> 00:34:03,752 and that Bill was my new authority. 592 00:34:05,128 --> 00:34:08,548 [Lindsay] At headquarters, we would have these weird, 593 00:34:08,632 --> 00:34:10,509 almost like a therapy session. 594 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,428 And he would always wait for his assistant to leave. 595 00:34:14,805 --> 00:34:18,934 And he was like, "So are you a virgin?" 596 00:34:19,017 --> 00:34:22,979 And I was like, "Well, yes sir, of course." 597 00:34:23,063 --> 00:34:25,649 I didn't know what sex was. I didn't know how babies were made. 598 00:34:25,731 --> 00:34:27,483 I didn't know anything. 599 00:34:27,567 --> 00:34:31,445 I just knew virginity was like, this thing that I had within me 600 00:34:31,530 --> 00:34:34,532 that was only meant for this one person. 601 00:34:34,615 --> 00:34:36,992 He's like, "Well, let's kneel before the Lord." 602 00:34:37,077 --> 00:34:39,704 And I was like, whoa, that's an elevated measure of prayer. 603 00:34:39,788 --> 00:34:43,416 So we get down on our knees and I immediately do this, 604 00:34:43,499 --> 00:34:45,876 and I'm just like all ready, and then all the sudden, 605 00:34:46,044 --> 00:34:48,547 I feel his hand creep up against mine, 606 00:34:48,630 --> 00:34:52,092 and he kept rubbing his thumb across the back of my hand. 607 00:34:52,175 --> 00:34:54,970 Which, we have a thing within the ATI system 608 00:34:55,053 --> 00:35:00,642 that we call the six inch rule, to keep six inches between a female and a male. 609 00:35:00,934 --> 00:35:02,936 And he seemed to have no problem. 610 00:35:03,812 --> 00:35:08,441 This became routine. This happened three times a week, maybe four times a week. 611 00:35:08,525 --> 00:35:09,651 [intense theme music plays] 612 00:35:09,734 --> 00:35:15,365 One night at headquarters, he said, "You belong here. 613 00:35:16,449 --> 00:35:19,244 I love you. You know that, right?" 614 00:35:21,246 --> 00:35:23,665 "Your father doesn't love you, but I love you." 615 00:35:23,748 --> 00:35:27,002 He played with my hair, and he rubbed my shoulders, 616 00:35:27,711 --> 00:35:29,462 and he put his hand on my thigh. 617 00:35:31,172 --> 00:35:32,424 The building was empty. 618 00:35:33,466 --> 00:35:36,052 Bill said, "Why don't you come up to my office?" 619 00:35:36,469 --> 00:35:37,846 [music intensifies] 620 00:35:38,346 --> 00:35:40,807 He took me by the hand. 621 00:35:40,891 --> 00:35:43,894 We started to walk through the dark hallways, 622 00:35:45,395 --> 00:35:47,314 and just as we opened the door, 623 00:35:48,273 --> 00:35:53,278 I saw that there was still a male staff assistant 624 00:35:53,570 --> 00:35:55,614 sitting at the computer doing some work, 625 00:35:56,990 --> 00:36:02,537 and Bill was startled. He did not expect that man to be in there. 626 00:36:03,997 --> 00:36:05,206 [dramatic music fades] 627 00:36:05,790 --> 00:36:09,169 Shortly after I arrived home from headquarters, 628 00:36:09,252 --> 00:36:17,010 the abuse at home got significantly worse because Bill had made promises to my dad. 629 00:36:17,093 --> 00:36:23,767 My dad was expecting me to submit more to his authority. 630 00:36:26,019 --> 00:36:29,648 I am one of many, many, many young ladies 631 00:36:29,731 --> 00:36:32,108 that Bill preyed upon, and took advantage of. 632 00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:36,363 I would walk by and sometimes I'd be like, oh, I wonder who he's praying with now. 633 00:36:36,446 --> 00:36:39,115 But then I couldn't really bring myself to like really look in, 634 00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:42,869 or stop and and take a peek. So many other girls were going through 635 00:36:42,953 --> 00:36:47,082 that exact same experience, and none of us felt that we had 636 00:36:47,165 --> 00:36:50,877 even the ability to say anything to anybody 637 00:36:50,961 --> 00:36:53,463 because we wouldn't be heard. If he were to, you know, 638 00:36:53,546 --> 00:36:57,092 do anything wrong, I brought it upon upon him. 639 00:36:57,717 --> 00:36:58,677 [suspenseful theme music plays] 640 00:36:59,260 --> 00:37:02,597 [Brooke] Wisdom Book 36 teaches the law of crying out, 641 00:37:02,681 --> 00:37:06,810 which is that if a woman is sexually assaulted, 642 00:37:07,102 --> 00:37:10,855 and she doesn't cry out to God for help while it's happening, 643 00:37:11,064 --> 00:37:12,941 she's equally to blame. 644 00:37:14,943 --> 00:37:22,701 It's a teaching that basically re-situates sexual assault as the victim's fault. 645 00:37:22,784 --> 00:37:26,705 - [ominous theme music plays] - [Heather] In one of the morning 646 00:37:26,788 --> 00:37:29,791 wisdom searches, they had us go around in this circle, 647 00:37:29,874 --> 00:37:33,586 and talk about if we had been attacked, or molested, or raped, 648 00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:37,298 and what we did to deserve that attack. 649 00:37:37,382 --> 00:37:40,427 [Michelle] I was involved in cheerleading and gymnastics. 650 00:37:40,802 --> 00:37:42,512 You know, kind of dancing around out there in a short skirt. 651 00:37:42,595 --> 00:37:47,308 - She had no clue how guys thought. - And how defrauding that was, 652 00:37:47,392 --> 00:37:51,062 because defrauding is stirring up desires in someone 653 00:37:51,146 --> 00:37:54,357 that cannot be righteously fulfilled. 654 00:37:54,441 --> 00:37:57,152 All of these examples were just existing as a person. 655 00:37:57,235 --> 00:37:58,862 Like, oh, well did you see how short her skirt was? 656 00:37:58,945 --> 00:38:01,948 It was like, oh, did you see that? She had to bend over to scrub the floor. 657 00:38:02,073 --> 00:38:07,829 Like, you can't exist without being accused of tempting a man to attack you. 658 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,792 [Bill] Why does God let tragedies take place? 659 00:38:12,959 --> 00:38:18,548 If He allows our physical to be damaged, He just increases the spiritual power, 660 00:38:19,174 --> 00:38:21,509 and that's a principle, through scripture. 661 00:38:21,593 --> 00:38:22,927 [intense theme music plays] 662 00:38:23,470 --> 00:38:26,389 [Heather] They glorified being attacked. 663 00:38:26,473 --> 00:38:29,726 Would you rather have never been attacked, and not be spiritually mighty? 664 00:38:30,602 --> 00:38:34,189 Like, well now you're lucky, you know? I almost became jealous 665 00:38:34,272 --> 00:38:39,778 of my friends who had gotten raped, because God wanted to use them more. 666 00:38:41,279 --> 00:38:43,740 And that's so weird to say out loud. 667 00:38:44,157 --> 00:38:50,371 - [lively piano music] - ♪ It will be worth it all ♪ 668 00:38:50,455 --> 00:38:54,584 ♪ When we see Jesus ♪ 669 00:38:54,667 --> 00:38:59,005 ♪ Our trials will seem so small ♪ 670 00:38:59,089 --> 00:39:03,760 ♪ When we see Christ When we see Christ ♪ 671 00:39:03,843 --> 00:39:08,598 [Josh] When you track Gothard's teaching long enough, you see that 672 00:39:08,681 --> 00:39:13,603 what we're talking about is the playbook of a powerful narcissist, and a dynamic 673 00:39:13,686 --> 00:39:17,357 where there's not any institutional checks and balances put in place. 674 00:39:18,358 --> 00:39:20,193 We have a gift, a gift to you, sir. 675 00:39:20,276 --> 00:39:22,946 Give you assurance of our love and affection for you. 676 00:39:23,863 --> 00:39:26,783 - Ah! - [audience laughing] 677 00:39:26,866 --> 00:39:30,578 - [man in box] Your suit is ready! - [audience cheers] 678 00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:32,872 [Josh] You look at all the different stories, all the different families, 679 00:39:32,956 --> 00:39:34,624 you look at all the different campuses. 680 00:39:34,707 --> 00:39:38,169 Everywhere you go, you're gonna see the exact same thing happening, 681 00:39:38,253 --> 00:39:40,922 abuse shows up in everything that it touches. 682 00:39:41,005 --> 00:39:42,966 [tense theme music plays] 683 00:39:43,466 --> 00:39:47,095 Shortly after I arrived home from headquarters… 684 00:39:47,178 --> 00:39:50,932 …I came across a website called recoveringgrace.org. 685 00:39:52,058 --> 00:39:55,270 [Chad] Recovering Grace was a community online for people 686 00:39:55,353 --> 00:39:59,607 to share their stories of the abuse that they experienced in ATI, 687 00:39:59,691 --> 00:40:02,152 and their own personal stories of recovery. 688 00:40:02,694 --> 00:40:06,281 It is where a lot of the momentum came about 689 00:40:06,364 --> 00:40:09,159 to push back against Bill Gothard for his sexual harassment. 690 00:40:09,701 --> 00:40:11,953 [Emily] On the front page, it was titled 691 00:40:12,036 --> 00:40:14,747 [heavy sigh] "Sexual Harassment at Headquarters." 692 00:40:15,331 --> 00:40:20,461 On impulse I jumped in the comment section and said, "Hey, this is my story." 693 00:40:20,628 --> 00:40:21,546 - [dramatic music plays] - [keyboard keys clacking] 694 00:40:21,713 --> 00:40:25,758 A few days later, I got a phone call from Bill. 695 00:40:25,842 --> 00:40:28,887 He was… livid. 696 00:40:29,470 --> 00:40:33,683 He just lit into me for an hour, on the phone, 697 00:40:34,225 --> 00:40:38,396 and said I needed to remove the comments immediately. 698 00:40:38,479 --> 00:40:41,316 He started calling multiple times a day. 699 00:40:42,192 --> 00:40:47,322 You know, you have this kind of parallel of Bill Gothard abusing young girls 700 00:40:47,405 --> 00:40:52,869 in his program, and Josh Duggar abusing young girls in his home. 701 00:40:53,745 --> 00:40:56,581 A lot of these stories started being shared on Recovering Grace, 702 00:40:56,664 --> 00:40:58,333 and so many similarities came up. 703 00:40:59,500 --> 00:41:03,004 [Josh] What Bill was accused of ran a pretty wide gamut. 704 00:41:03,087 --> 00:41:07,342 Grooming behavior, petting hair, touching hair, long, uncomfortable hugs. 705 00:41:07,592 --> 00:41:10,220 One woman turned around, and he was sitting at the desk, 706 00:41:10,303 --> 00:41:14,015 and she could see that he had a erection underneath his pants, 707 00:41:14,098 --> 00:41:16,976 and his legs were spread out, and he was staring intently at her. 708 00:41:17,060 --> 00:41:19,729 It's story after story after story of that, 709 00:41:19,979 --> 00:41:23,566 and it almost feels like whatever was repressed 710 00:41:23,650 --> 00:41:27,946 inside of Gothard was spilling out into him testing boundaries 711 00:41:28,029 --> 00:41:30,531 of how far he could go with someone before they freaked out. 712 00:41:30,615 --> 00:41:32,158 [intense music bellows] 713 00:41:32,325 --> 00:41:35,703 There was one woman who accused Bill Gothard of rape. 714 00:41:37,956 --> 00:41:40,124 [audience murmuring] 715 00:41:40,208 --> 00:41:43,586 All right, thank you for returning to your seats. 716 00:41:43,711 --> 00:41:44,629 [dramatic theme music plays] 717 00:41:44,754 --> 00:41:47,715 Whenever you and I are falsely accused, 718 00:41:48,091 --> 00:41:51,594 it's like we've been given this cup of bitter water, 719 00:41:51,928 --> 00:41:54,264 and we must go through this public test. 720 00:41:54,722 --> 00:41:57,517 [Josh] So Gothard was removed from leadership from IBLP 721 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,979 because of all of these growing allegations that are coming against him. 722 00:42:01,646 --> 00:42:04,440 [Bill] Just so you know, this property was given to me. 723 00:42:04,691 --> 00:42:08,945 And so it escalates to the point where there's a moment at an IBLP event 724 00:42:09,028 --> 00:42:12,615 where he has to be physically escorted out of the event 725 00:42:12,740 --> 00:42:17,287 by the same campus police group that he helped create. 726 00:42:17,704 --> 00:42:22,000 [male reporter] William W. Gothard Junior was asked by an Alert Academy official 727 00:42:22,083 --> 00:42:24,752 to leave the private property, and refused to do so. 728 00:42:26,129 --> 00:42:28,464 Now, of course, every single thing the man's ever written 729 00:42:28,548 --> 00:42:31,843 and done is still on the website, and that's still the only thing they're using, 730 00:42:31,968 --> 00:42:34,679 but they no longer want the liability of having him, 731 00:42:35,096 --> 00:42:37,265 the person, officially a part of the organization. 732 00:42:38,516 --> 00:42:41,602 If you're perceived as useful, people will cover up for you. 733 00:42:41,686 --> 00:42:43,354 Bill Gothard had that happen, 734 00:42:43,438 --> 00:42:46,190 and then of course, you know, when he was no longer useful, 735 00:42:46,274 --> 00:42:48,735 they took the teachings and ran with it in other directions. 736 00:42:49,610 --> 00:42:53,197 [Brooke] There were sharks circling, realizing that the Institute 737 00:42:53,281 --> 00:42:59,454 had a tremendous amount of money, assets, and funds equaling about $90 million. 738 00:43:00,413 --> 00:43:02,248 And if you could get rid of Bill Gothard, 739 00:43:02,332 --> 00:43:05,918 somebody who was left gets control of all of that cash. 740 00:43:06,127 --> 00:43:07,462 [dramatic theme music plays] 741 00:43:07,879 --> 00:43:10,173 I encourage you also to bring two or three of your friends with you, 742 00:43:10,256 --> 00:43:14,093 and let's increase this, because I think the more people we can get here, 743 00:43:14,177 --> 00:43:15,762 the more lives that will be changed. 744 00:43:16,554 --> 00:43:18,264 [female producer] Do you think that 745 00:43:18,681 --> 00:43:22,060 Jim Bob, in a way, is trying to emulate Bill Gothard? 746 00:43:22,477 --> 00:43:27,732 Oh, definitely. Because Mr. Gothard has been taken out of it, 747 00:43:27,815 --> 00:43:31,152 from what my understanding is is that Jim Bob and Michelle 748 00:43:31,235 --> 00:43:32,779 are now his replacement. 749 00:43:32,862 --> 00:43:34,697 [eerie theme music swells] 750 00:43:34,947 --> 00:43:38,284 He has changed so much, I don't know if he's even the same guy that I knew. 751 00:43:39,494 --> 00:43:42,872 With them being on TLC's show, 752 00:43:42,955 --> 00:43:46,793 I think that has definitely given them a platform 753 00:43:46,876 --> 00:43:48,795 to encourage people to come to IBLP, 754 00:43:48,878 --> 00:43:51,881 and they've encouraged people to move to Arkansas, 755 00:43:51,964 --> 00:43:55,176 which is completely a cult move. 756 00:43:55,259 --> 00:43:57,845 We used to be part of a megachurch, and we started meeting at home 757 00:43:57,929 --> 00:44:01,724 to have a service on Sunday morning, and it's really a special time for our family. 758 00:44:01,808 --> 00:44:05,186 They do believe that the way they live is the way everybody should live. 759 00:44:05,770 --> 00:44:09,440 I don't think America wants to live like fundamentalist families, 760 00:44:09,524 --> 00:44:13,528 but they don't understand what fundamentalist families look like anymore. 761 00:44:13,611 --> 00:44:15,405 - Oh, Jim Duggar. - Jim Duggar, yeah. 762 00:44:15,488 --> 00:44:18,241 [Tia] It's been shined up and put on TLC. 763 00:44:18,324 --> 00:44:20,076 - [intense theme music plays] - At the age of 7 years old… 764 00:44:21,994 --> 00:44:22,870 [music crescendos] 765 00:44:23,037 --> 00:44:26,290 The last time I talked to my uncle was… um… 766 00:44:28,292 --> 00:44:29,794 …erm, 2019. 767 00:44:30,253 --> 00:44:31,879 You called him, and you said, 768 00:44:31,963 --> 00:44:35,967 "Hey, I'm seeing something about Homeland Security." 769 00:44:36,384 --> 00:44:39,470 - I have reporters, from other countries… - Right. 770 00:44:39,554 --> 00:44:41,764 Who have flown in here, asking us questions… 771 00:44:41,931 --> 00:44:44,892 - About Homeland Security raids. - I don't even know whats going on. 772 00:44:45,268 --> 00:44:46,185 Well, breaking news tonight. 773 00:44:46,269 --> 00:44:49,772 Harsh reality for reality TV star, Josh Duggar. 774 00:44:49,856 --> 00:44:51,774 [female reporter 2] Josh Duggar has been arrested. 775 00:44:51,858 --> 00:44:53,526 [male reporter] Duggar asked agents quote, 776 00:44:53,609 --> 00:44:56,737 "Why are you here? "Was someone downloading child porn?" 777 00:44:56,821 --> 00:44:57,697 [intense theme music plays] 778 00:44:57,822 --> 00:44:59,699 [male agent] We were able to determine that 779 00:44:59,782 --> 00:45:03,786 this was the business where 780 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,289 downloads of child pornography had occurred, 781 00:45:06,372 --> 00:45:10,918 and if there's an electronic device that possibly might have this video, or images, 782 00:45:11,002 --> 00:45:13,296 or anything associated like that that's on it, 783 00:45:13,379 --> 00:45:14,630 we'd like to know now. 784 00:45:14,714 --> 00:45:18,426 [Josh] I'm not denying guilt, but I'm not saying that I'm, you know, 785 00:45:18,509 --> 00:45:22,597 I mean as far as anything goes, I don't wanna say the wrong thing. 786 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:23,848 [dramatic theme music bellows] 787 00:45:24,056 --> 00:45:27,477 It didn't matter, ultimately, that Gothard fell. 788 00:45:28,436 --> 00:45:32,565 - The movement goes on. - [music continues] 789 00:45:33,941 --> 00:45:38,613 The Duggars have exact steps to follow to fulfill the mission of what IBLP is. 790 00:45:39,405 --> 00:45:43,201 There is a decades long, multi-generational plan 791 00:45:43,284 --> 00:45:46,579 to raise up Christian homeschool graduates 792 00:45:46,662 --> 00:45:50,541 to infiltrate the highest levels of government, and the media. 793 00:45:50,625 --> 00:45:53,586 You can't be a they/them, people, you can't! 794 00:45:53,669 --> 00:45:55,880 I'm sorry, pick one or the other, at least. 795 00:45:56,714 --> 00:45:59,258 [Brooke] They are parroting the older generation. 796 00:45:59,342 --> 00:46:02,470 Jim Bob Duggar is running for a seat in the Arkansas Senate. 797 00:46:02,553 --> 00:46:07,225 [Kristin] It's really bold to run for office while you have a son on trial 798 00:46:07,350 --> 00:46:08,976 for child sexual assault materials. 799 00:46:09,977 --> 00:46:10,811 [dramatic music crescendos] 800 00:46:11,479 --> 00:46:12,772 We just flat out lied. 801 00:46:12,855 --> 00:46:14,941 [tense theme music plays through]