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ALAN BATES: The computer system Post
Office spent an arm and a leg on

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is faulty.

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I haven't got that money!

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00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,960
The losses must have been caused
by Mr Castleton's own error.

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You're inside subpostmasters'
Horizon... and he doesn't know?

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We're ready to mount
and fund an independent review.

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Mr Rutherford's organisation,
Second Sight,

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will be working for us, the MPs,
and therefore indirectly for you.

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They had no right
to take you to court at all.

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They destroyed our whole life...
for a lie?

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Alan, it's Paula Vennells.

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Where do we go from here?

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Sorry, Martin, I hit every red
light on the way here, mate.

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You get later every day.
Oh, come on.

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You don't get no more cheerful, pal.

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Just need to get home.
Ah, we all do, mate. Long day?

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They're all long days.

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Any specials with these?

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Giro pouch. Cheque pouch.

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I'll have to come back for them.
Yeah.

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WEARILY: Oh.

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MEN SHOUT,
CRASHING

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AGGRESSIVE SHOUTING

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MARTIN YELLS IN PAIN

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Please! No... don't...!

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Don't!

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MUFFLED SHOUTS

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Stay there! Don't look at me!

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YELLING CONTINUES

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Come on, hurry up!

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Please!
Hurry up!

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Go, go, go, go!

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MARTIN YELLS

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HE YELPS AND GASPS

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Martin, let's talk about
what happened.

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The total loss to Post Office funds
that day were £54,354.96.

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The police were there
in five minutes.

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They got most of it back.

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This is a culpability interview,
Martin.

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You had the parcel hatch open
and the safe.

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In accordance with section 12,
paragraph 18

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of the subpostmasters' contract...
WOMAN CALLS: Martin?

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..you're bound to take
reasonable precautions

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to safeguard official cash
and property.

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DOOR CLOSES

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You are therefore contractually
liable for an amount of...

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Seven and a half thousand pounds?

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So now the armed robbery
is our fault, too.

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It wasn't the robbery
that got me sacked.

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Sacked? What?

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I'm already under investigation
for the Horizon shortfalls,

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and now the robbery.

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Three months' notice.

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Oh, Martin.

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For four years of, every day,
opening that door, waiting for...

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For what?

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For the day to end.

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"Terminated for continued
poor accounting performance,

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"not operating individual
stock units correctly.

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' "Failure to make good losses
in a timely manner."

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'They're just going on'

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and on about the contract
and blaming Martin for everything,

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never accepting
it's Horizon's fault.

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How big did the shortfalls get?

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£61,000 altogether.

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'They've had our savings already.

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'And our parents'.'

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Alan, we've nothing left to give.

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OK.
SUZANNE: Wow!

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JO: Every time we meet,
there's more of us...

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There's the vegetarian ones...
Thank you.

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..and we're always ravenous.

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Have we eaten Alan?
LAUGHTER

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That phone is a full-time job.

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LEE: And the effect it had
on the family was...

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I mean, not just me and Lisa,
but, you know, the kids, we...

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I mean, we had to move
the schools, you know,

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cos of the bullying.

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And then our daughter,
Millie-Jo, she hit her teens and...

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..just stopped eating.

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It was anorexia.

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And they say don't blame yourselves.
But you do.

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Yeah, of course you do.
And nobody understands, do they?

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Jo's always been very kind to us,
hasn't she?

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We call her, "Mum".
Yeah.

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If she's Mum, what's Alan?
Dad?

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CHUCKLING: We don't call him Dad.

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Alan's the godfather.

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Shall we, eh, crack on?

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Yep. The Don has spoken.

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You all right?
Yeah.

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The thing is, Alan, I'm not sure
my computer was really the problem.

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I just had endless power cuts.

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36 of them in one day.

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If you get a power cut in the
middle of a transaction, poof!

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No wonder it comes out wrong.

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You see, erm, my husband died...

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and I took over.

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It was just before
Horizon was installed.

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But then they didn't put the new
electricity lines in properly.

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Oh, Pam. Really?

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Doesn't it just go to show
how absolutely bloody useless

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they can be about
the simplest bloody things?

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I told them
when they closed me down, I said...

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.."If you can prove
that I stole that money,

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"then send the police round,
send them now."

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Since then, I have not slept.

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And I've been scared
every waking moment,

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expecting that knock on the door.

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I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

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You've got nothing to
be sorry for, Pam.

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I'm just so... I'm just so angry.

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I hate being so angry!

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If I ever say
I'm going to give this up,

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remind me about people like Pam.

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So, to, er, to recap, er,

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my chat with Paula Vennells has
resulted in a new investigation

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and mediation scheme which
will allow all of us to apply

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for the compensation we deserve.

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Even people like me and Jo?

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Alan's got their commitment here
in black and white.

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The Post Office says
you may put your case

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through the mediation scheme,

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even if you've already received
a police caution

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or been subject to a criminal
prosecution or conviction.

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If we got our money back.

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And our good names.

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An apology, even.

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Steady on.
Or just getting to the truth.

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So, with your agreement,

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Kay and I will defend your interests
every step of the way.

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We will look into each individual
case and fight our corner.

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I know, but, Alan,
do you trust them?

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I mean, do we trust them? Really?

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Well...
CHUCKLES

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..they're putting money
and effort into it,

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and it's coming from the top, so...

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Well, it's got to be worth a try.

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Shall we have a vote?

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All those in favour?

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Great.

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42 pence change.

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Book of six first-class stamps,
please. There you go, thank you.

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£3.60.
Sorry?

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LOUDER: £3.60.

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GINA: 'For a long time,
he suspected the staff, you know,

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'of stealing from the tills.

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'The bad feeling
that's still causing.

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'But if it wasn't them,
then it had to be his fault,

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'like he's stupid, which he isn't.'

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That was before - before we knew
about the Horizon thing.

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Can I talk to him?

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'Well, he won't talk to me
about it, even now.'

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It drives me mad.

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I know he's got depression.

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He's a proud father, and I think
he thinks he's failed us.

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'Failed our family.'

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Gina...

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put him on.

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Love.

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It's Alan Bates.

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He wants to talk to you.

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Please, Martin.

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Martin?

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'Yes.'

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Listen. Martin...

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you're not alone.

168
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There's a lot of us, and...

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'there's a new scheme
you can apply for.

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'I'm going to send you the forms.

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'Martin, you might get
some of your money back.'

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Erm...

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AGITATED: ..I can't talk to you
right now.

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Ma...

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People are trying to help here!

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'I'm so sorry. Erm...'

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00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,680
He's just... He's...
'It's OK, Gina.'

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I'll send you the forms,
but get him to apply.

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It's important.

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I'll try.

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Bloody traffic.

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00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,080
Hi.
Oh, hi.

183
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I'm a little late for a meeting
with Susan Crichton.

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Bob. Good to see you.

185
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Susan's left us.

186
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Why?

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New times, new opportunities.

188
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Moving forward,
I'll be your main point of contact.

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'This is Susan Crichton.
I have left the Post Office.

190
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'Thank you for NOT leaving
a message.'

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00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:48,680
Bob...

192
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..we need to talk.

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'I'm not bloody signing up
to this nonsense.'

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The Post Office want me to stay on,
but it's pointless.

195
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They've unilaterally taken away
our access to

196
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the legal and prosecution files.

197
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,280
I can't investigate in a blindfold
with both hands tied behind my back.

198
00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,440
Alan, professionally,
I just can't do it.

199
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,160
Bob, grit your teeth.

200
00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,080
We can't do this without you.

201
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:14,800
I don't know
why you're doing it at all.

202
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,440
You do know why.
We have to go to mediation

203
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,400
because we can't afford to go
it alone.

204
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,000
You're an idiot to trust them, Alan.

205
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,360
I think they're mostly
just a bunch of lying bastards.

206
00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,400
And I think they're wasting
your time and mine.

207
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,720
Bob, if you walk away now,

208
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,640
you'll never find out
which of those bastards IS lying,

209
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,640
what they knew and when.

210
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,840
And you'll never find out what
happens at the end of the story.

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00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,040
BOB CHUCKLES

212
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:42,480
We must both be mad.

213
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,200
We are. Pint?

214
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,480
GINA: Big day tomorrow.

215
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:52,680
Your appeal against dismissal.

216
00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,920
Martin.

217
00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:09,120
Why don't I run you a bath?
It'll relax you.

218
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,760
I'm all right. I'm OK, I'm OK.

219
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,280
Please let me wash these clothes,
you've been wearing them for days.

220
00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,680
Don't you wanna wash your hair,
love? No. Stop.

221
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:23,360
For tomorrow!
Gina.

222
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:24,880
NERVOUSLY: It's a big day.

223
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,560
All I'm saying is...
Gina... Gina...

224
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:29,640
..we could just make a little bit
of an effort to look nice.

225
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,520
Gina, leave me alone, please.

226
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,160
OK.

227
00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:43,920
'We've been over this.'

228
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,600
A parcel hatch is about that big.

229
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,640
Then you've got a sack of mail,
which is...

230
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,760
You know how big
a sack of mail is, yeah?

231
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,120
Once they were in with weapons,
even if the safe was closed,

232
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,840
what would you do if they threatened
you and said, "Open the safe!"?

233
00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:05,960
ON RADIO: I hope you're having
a fabulous morning.

234
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,920
The time is now coming up to 6:20AM,

235
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:09,800
and it's time
for a little traffic update.

236
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,400
It looks like there's congestion
on the M62,

237
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,040
and it's building up
to the Runcorn turn-off.

238
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,320
Martin?
DOOR SHUTS

239
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,600
You're off early, love.

240
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,360
RADIO CONTINUES

241
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:28,960
Sorry.

242
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,560
Morning.
Where is he?

243
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,960
We don't know.
Martin?

244
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,440
It's not working.
I know it's not the other one.

245
00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,440
It's...
Are you Mrs Griffiths?

246
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,440
Can we have a word in private?
N...

247
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,200
ALAN ON PHONE: Yes.

248
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:15,040
OK.

249
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,080
No, I...

250
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,280
Hmm. Of course.

251
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,280
Thanks for letting me know.

252
00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,480
He never regained consciousness.

253
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,040
God.

254
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,320
Gina's had to agree
to switch off life support.

255
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,080
Oh, Alan!

256
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,320
Blood on their hands now.

257
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,480
He had kids, Lee.

258
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,320
I know.

259
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,840
I expect he thought
he was doing them a favour.

260
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,200
Are you doing it, ever?
No, no.

261
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,400
No. Not really.

262
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,160
GASPS

263
00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,600
Sorry. SOBS: Sorry.

264
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,840
..think about it. I'm sorry.

265
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,640
Don't you...
don't you ever do that!

266
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:18,520
I can't have you feeling bad about
this for the rest of your life.

267
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,240
I'd have just walked away.

268
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,880
I could have just shut the shop.

269
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:39,160
Just put us on a slow boat
to China. I could have done that.

270
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,200
And they'd have chased us all the
way to China for that money, Lee.

271
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,760
They were never going to let go.

272
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:49,800
Hey.

273
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,680
I know you did it for us.

274
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:00,880
GINA: I can't think straight.

275
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,920
I don't know what to do.

276
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,280
It's really very good of you
to come.

277
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,560
We're all so sorry for your loss.

278
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,480
It was four days
before his notice ran out,

279
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,040
and he still hadn't told the staff
he'd been sacked.

280
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,440
Yes, it's very hard.

281
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:22,920
And his appeal

282
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,760
against being fined for the robbery,
it didn't come to anything.

283
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,800
They didn't decide one way
or the other.

284
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,920
Stressful.

285
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,840
Obviously.

286
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,080
I used to get so cross with him,
Angela.

287
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,920
I never did understand the problem,

288
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,760
and he couldn't explain it,
just every morning going to work

289
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:41,960
and saying he was desperate.

290
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,840
He was really desperate.

291
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,920
Every morning, the same words.

292
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:49,960
"I hate it."

293
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,280
"I can't bear it."

294
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,480
For years.

295
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,120
Can you imagine?

296
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,440
We, er...

297
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,600
..we're going to do right by you,
Gina.

298
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,080
You can rely on us.

299
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:27,640
Yeah.

300
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,280
ANGELA: So, as we launch
this mediation scheme,

301
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,400
I can confirm our agreement

302
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,120
that Martin Griffiths' case
will be dealt with

303
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:38,200
as a priority by this working group.

304
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,000
Now, you've also received
a request from the family

305
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,520
that any approaches to Gina
should come through me.

306
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,440
Yes. Yes, we are happy
to agree to this, too.

307
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,800
Shall we declare this mediation
scheme up and running? Yes.

308
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,320
We have a long list
of cases to examine.

309
00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,920
So let's get started.

310
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,040
Right, then, start with Martin.

311
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,080
First things first...

312
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,800
Mr Griffiths.

313
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,600
INTERVIEWER ON RADIO:
'Profits falling, Mrs Vennells.

314
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,720
'Government subsidy on its way out.

315
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,400
'That means a reckoning
is on the horizon, does it not?'

316
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,160
VENNELLS: 'It does, absolutely.'

317
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,600
And the whole point
about this investment programme

318
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,360
is to make sure we have models
that are commercially sustainable.

319
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:26,360
'And my ambition would be...'
Yes.

320
00:21:26,360 --> 00:21:29,240
'..that within three to four
years' time....' Horizon.

321
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,640
..the Post Office doesn't need
to take taxpayers' money

322
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,840
to support those post offices
that can be commercially profitable.

323
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,160
'So, Paula,
if you don't mind me asking,

324
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,360
'you're CEO of the Post Office...'
Ask her about Horizon.

325
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:43,640
'..but you're also a priest
in the Church of England.

326
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,680
'How do you combine
those two roles?'

327
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,320
Very good, thank you.

328
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,920
Good to see you.
Thank you very much.

329
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,640
Just one thing.
This, erm, Horizon business.

330
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,600
Anything in it?
I beg your pardon?

331
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,080
Horizon.
Some lurid allegations out there.

332
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:05,840
Well, er...

333
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,080
Well, after two and a half years
of investigations,

334
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,320
it is now clear
that the Horizon system is robust

335
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,720
and works as it should.

336
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,360
Thank you.

337
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,880
'And God said to Solomon...'

338
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,600
"Ask for whatever
you want me to give you."

339
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,480
And Solomon said...

340
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,840
"Give your servant
a discerning heart

341
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,240
"to govern your people

342
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,440
"and to distinguish
between right and wrong."

343
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,880
The Lord was pleased
that Solomon had asked for this.

344
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,560
So God said to him...

345
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,920
"I will do what you have asked.

346
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:57,200
"I will give you
a wise and discerning heart."

347
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:05,040
PAM: I've been preparing for this
mediation hearing for months.

348
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:07,920
You will remember
that I asked to see this data,

349
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,480
the ARQ data from your system,

350
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,600
so that I could see
if it matched up to my data

351
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,080
from my till in my branch.

352
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:17,840
I kept everything, you see.

353
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,120
Now, you told me

354
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,800
I wouldn't be capable
of interpreting the ARQ data

355
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,600
because I was a silly woman
or something.

356
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,920
Anyway, may I direct you
to page seven?

357
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,920
Now, you will clearly see
a two-hour period

358
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,560
when money alterations
were being put in,

359
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,360
but not by me,
because I was serving customers.

360
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,760
There is no functionality
in the Horizon system

361
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,600
to remotely access branch terminals.

362
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,520
LAUGHS INCREDULOUSLY
I just proved there is!

363
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,720
Mrs Stubbs,
we have to tell you now that,

364
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,880
at this mediation meeting,

365
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,040
we are under no legal
or moral obligation

366
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,360
to do anything whatsoever.

367
00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:07,280
And we are working on the principle
of the contract,

368
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,880
which says that if you lose money,
you repay it.

369
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,360
Well...

370
00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:17,080
I'm finished with this, actually.

371
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,880
I'm finished with you.

372
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,640
See, I think you're lying to me.

373
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,920
Mrs Stubbs, calm...
And I KNOW you're patronising me.

374
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,360
And I'm going to tell
the whole world what you are like.

375
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,360
May I remind you that you have
signed a non-disclosure agreement?

376
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:35,400
I'll talk to anyone who will listen,
I'll stand up with all my papers,

377
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,680
and I will prove
you lied about this.

378
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,120
Mrs Stubbs, this will have
legal ramifications... Oh!

379
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,080
You want to take me to court?
I couldn't give a toss!

380
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,160
'The way they treat people...

381
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,720
'They are despicable!

382
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,440
'I have never, ever been made
to feel like this...'

383
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,320
AUDIO BREAKS UP
'..in my entire life.

384
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,080
Pam? Pam?

385
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,960
You're... You're breaking up.
AUDIO CRACKLES

386
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,760
I mean, are they lying
or... or just stupid?

387
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,040
Hello?

388
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:21,040
For a while there,
right at the start of mediation...

389
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,440
..you got close to trusting them,
didn't you?

390
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,280
Maybe...

391
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,400
despite every awful story
they've heard,

392
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,120
despite all the work we've done,

393
00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:38,800
they still don't get it.

394
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,240
They actually believe they're right.

395
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,560
I understand your impatience,
of course I do.

396
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,120
But, Alan, really?

397
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:50,240
Four closely typed
pages of complaint?

398
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,840
"Finding the truth is the last thing
they're interested in"?

399
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,760
Well, that's been our experience
of their investigation.

400
00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,280
Well, will you at least acknowledge

401
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:00,920
that, before writing to
the minister,

402
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,200
it might possibly have been useful
to raise your concerns with Paula?

403
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,040
Martin Griffiths is dead.

404
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,080
Yes, I know.

405
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,280
I, too, am concerned
about the length of time

406
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,480
mediation is taking,
but Paula is very exercised.

407
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:25,120
I'm sorry, James, but, ha, these
mediation hearings are a joke.

408
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:28,080
Well, let's just ask Paula
about that, shall we?

409
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,240
'No, we have not dragged our feet.'

410
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,640
I've had 22 people working on this,
full-time, for more than a year.

411
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,400
But not a single case finalised.

412
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,520
And now I am told
that people are walking out

413
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,960
of their mediation meetings.

414
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,960
Yes, it has taken longer
than we would've liked.

415
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:50,880
As chief executive
of the Post Office,

416
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,120
I could not put this scheme in place
and not do it properly.

417
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,160
The system... and the people
who work in our branches

418
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,560
are too important for that.

419
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,720
Well, at least we can agree
on that one.

420
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,320
Let's be clear,
we still have allegations here

421
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,120
of miscarriage of justice.

422
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,960
Our lawyers advise the correct route

423
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,840
for challenges
to criminal prosecutions

424
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,320
is via the Criminal Cases
Review Commission... Hold on.

425
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:16,600
Hold on.
..to the Appeal Court.

426
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,560
No, you made promises, Paula.
You promised me personally

427
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,880
that my constituent, Jo Hamilton,

428
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,920
whom I believe was wrongly convicted
and with whom all of this started,

429
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,800
would be eligible for mediation.

430
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,400
Our lawyers advise
that no mediation scheme

431
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,520
has the power to overturn
a criminal conviction.

432
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,040
Paula, this is quite wrong.

433
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,280
You have broken your word to me.

434
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,080
And you have broken your word
to the subpostmasters.

435
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,760
You have broken your word
to Parliament.

436
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,320
JAMES ARBUTHNOT:
'Post Office has broken its word

437
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,120
'to Members of Parliament
in so many different respects.

438
00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:01,040
'It may, of course, be that
the trade of subpostmastering

439
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,920
'was infiltrated
by a sudden rash of criminals.

440
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,920
'I have met a lot of these people,
and I personally do not believe it.

441
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,680
'Frankly, I no longer trust
the Post Office

442
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,320
'and will not be negotiating
with it further.

443
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,200
'It has spent public money
on a mediation scheme

444
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,720
'that it has set out to sabotage.'

445
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,400
He says he can get some interest
from the select committee.

446
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,960
Oh, not another talking shop.

447
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,800
Personally,
I'm looking forward to it.

448
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,160
Probably more than Paula.

449
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,280
PAULA VENNELLS: Is it possible to
access the system remotely or not?

450
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,480
I hope it is
that we know it is not possible,

451
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,840
and that we're able to explain
why that is.

452
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,120
I need to be able to say,
"No, it is not possible,

453
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,040
"and we're sure of this
because of X, X, X."

454
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:47,920
I need the facts.

455
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,520
That's Paula.

456
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,600
JO: She looks very smart.

457
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,600
Very corporate.

458
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,480
Who's the other one?

459
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,960
Angela van den Bogerd.

460
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,680
The gruesome twosome.

461
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,720
Don't they have any blokes
at the Post Office?

462
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,560
'I have spent a lot
of the past 12 months...'

463
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,080
Yes! Come on, Bob.

464
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,600
..requesting access to documents
that have been challenged.

465
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,640
One issue we're looking into relates
to Fujitsu's office in Bracknell.

466
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,960
Now, we first requested
documents relating to that

467
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,120
almost two years ago,

468
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,800
and we have still not been provided
with those documents.

469
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,160
Erm, may I respond?

470
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,280
We did provide
a year's worth of emails

471
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,640
that Second Sight requested.

472
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,200
Unfortunately,
those emails that were provided

473
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:44,600
were for the wrong year.

474
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,240
That seems to me an amazing error.

475
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,240
Are there any other issues?

476
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,680
Probably most important
would be full access

477
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,280
to the legal and prosecution files
held by the Post Office.

478
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,960
Paula, why don't you
make those files available?

479
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,960
What's the problem?

480
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,080
The point I want to pick up first,
if I may... No, no.

481
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,600
Answer my question.

482
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,200
Er, it is the first time,
personally, that I've heard that.

483
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,920
I'm happy to go away
and have a look.

484
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,440
They've been told that
under no circumstances

485
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,520
could they be given those files.

486
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:17,840
Is that right or wrong?

487
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,680
I... I do not recall that, no.

488
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,280
And you can piss right off.

489
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,280
That sounds to me like a shambles.

490
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,440
We are hearing from Bob

491
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,440
that your organisation
has been obstructive

492
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,120
to his independent work.

493
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,080
Is that right or wrong?

494
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,360
We have provided,
for every single case,

495
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,160
detailed, thorough,
independent investigation.

496
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,720
Let me stop you there.
We've just heard from Bob,

497
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,320
who is independent,
that you have not.

498
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,520
You are the head
of the organisation.

499
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,520
Will you provide the information,
yes or no?

500
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,920
This is the first time that I have
been asked for this information.

501
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,000
Yes or no?
I am not aware...

502
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,280
Will you provide it? Yes or no?

503
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,520
'Give me a simple answer.'
Yes or no?

504
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,880
'I am not prepared, on behalf
of the Post Office to give...'

505
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,320
I think I've got my answer.
You won't provide it.

506
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,160
No, you have not got your answer.
You have not heard a yes or no.

507
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,200
I am simply saying, at the moment,

508
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,600
I am not able to answer
your question.

509
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,440
Honestly,
I find it quite astonishing

510
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,360
that you don't seem to know anything

511
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,600
about an issue that is so
politically and socially sensitive.

512
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,160
I know a huge amount about this.
I know the really important things.

513
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,160
You are the chief executive,
so the buck stops with you.

514
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,800
It does stop with me.

515
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,080
I am not denying at all
that there are problems.

516
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:31,120
Of course there are.

517
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,800
There are problems
in any organisation.

518
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,640
But this is about the reputation
of the Post Office.

519
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,840
SUZANNE: 'What?!'

520
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:42,440
No, it's not! It's about
people's lives, you moron.

521
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,120
Slaughtered her.

522
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,040
Paula's face.
She had no idea what just happened.

523
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,000
Gina Griffiths has pulled out
of the mediation scheme.

524
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,200
Well, that can't be right.
Alan would've known that.

525
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,800
Unless they went to her
behind our backs.

526
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,120
What kind of people go back
on a promise to a grieving widow?

527
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,840
GINA:
It's not a huge amount of money.

528
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,400
Not, you know, life-changing.

529
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,040
And in return,
you had to pull out of mediation.

530
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,800
I've got nothing coming in, Alan.

531
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,040
I was gonna have to sell the house
just to live.

532
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,760
I imagine they also got you to sign
a non-disclosure agreement,

533
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,160
promising not to talk to anyone
about Martin's case.

534
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,200
I shouldn't even be speaking to you.

535
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,080
They rang up, Alan.
They said it was a one-day offer.

536
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,880
If I didn't say yes
by the end of the day, then...

537
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:45,720
I'm sorry.

538
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,560
It's all right, really.

539
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,400
I understand.

540
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,080
Well...
CHUCKLES

541
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,920
I don't blame you.

542
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,240
When Angela came to see me...

543
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,520
Angela Van den Bogerd came here?

544
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,800
She was nice... I thought. Kind.

545
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,280
Now I don't know about any of them.
I think you just...

546
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,560
We just... cling to a notion,
don't we?

547
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,640
That people can't be that bad.

548
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,680
PHONE RINGS

549
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,440
ANGELA: 'Alan?'

550
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:40,720
Hello, Angela.

551
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,280
Oh, good news.

552
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,080
No more reports for Bob to write.

553
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,240
No more need for you
to trail down to London.

554
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:48,960
No more working group meetings.

555
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,520
'A new way forward.'

556
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,800
You're closing down
the mediation scheme?

557
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,200
No, no, no. No, no... no.

558
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,640
Not... Not closing it down.
We're... simplifying it.

559
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,200
'We're taking it in-house.

560
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,400
'We'll decide each case
individually.'

561
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:06,880
Closing it down.

562
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,560
After 18 months,
it's in everyone's interest

563
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,400
to speed things along now,
don't you think?

564
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,760
Well, if that's what you want to do.
'Oh.'

565
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,400
Right.

566
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,240
Well, good to talk.

567
00:34:23,240 --> 00:34:24,680
'Bye, Alan.'

568
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,280
Goodbye, Angela.

569
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,520
Oh, you sods.

570
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,400
Suzanne?

571
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,640
PHONE RINGS

572
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,200
BOB: I'm calling to tell you

573
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,600
that I'm not allowed
to talk to you any more.

574
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,440
Sacked again, eh? That was quick.

575
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,760
Well, I considered pointing out
that they're not allowed

576
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,320
to just kick you and me
off the working group.

577
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,880
Well, they're not allowed
to go around ruining people's lives

578
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:14,240
or breaking their promises.

579
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:17,560
But since when
did that ever stop them?

580
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,400
'They are not just dropping us,
Alan.

581
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,280
'They're rubbing our noses in it.'

582
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:27,000
They're making us destroy or return
every single document they gave us.

583
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:32,040
The whole investigation.
Three years' work up in smoke.

584
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:34,960
'I'm so sorry, Alan.'

585
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:40,640
Nice knowing you, Bob.

586
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,120
Yeah. Goodbye, Alan.

587
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:46,840
Cheers.

588
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:54,840
Love?

589
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,200
Oh, there you are.

590
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,720
They're going ahead -
without me, without Bob,

591
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:11,000
without anyone fighting.
our members' corner.

592
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,440
Did look at paint charts, but...

593
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,240
in the end,
I think I just want white.

594
00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:21,080
I'll get it done this weekend,
erm... help take my mind off it.

595
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:22,800
You what?

596
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:28,120
Yeah, so, erm...
SHE SIGHS

597
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,480
..test came back positive.

598
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,120
Hardly time to catch a cold,
is there? Let alone get cancer.

599
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,200
You'll outlive me.

600
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,000
Yeah.

601
00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,880
They'll operate.

602
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,800
It'll be fine.

603
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,080
I'll live. I want to live.

604
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,160
I have to.

605
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,040
See some bastards go to prison.

606
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,080
SHE SNIFFS,
HE CHUCKLES

607
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,880
I'll put the kettle on.

608
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,160
INDISTINCT CHATTER

609
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,520
Mm. Still here, then?

610
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:54,440
Tough old bird.

611
00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:59,240
I've, er...

612
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,320
I've been thinking.
Oh, God.

613
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:05,920
No, no.

614
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:12,680
If we can't find a lawyer
by, I don't know, December...

615
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,760
..maybe it's time to call it a day.

616
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,040
You once said to me,

617
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,200
"If I ever start talking
about giving up..."

618
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:25,640
That was then.

619
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,280
Don't you dare give up
on account of me, Alan.

620
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,200
Well, I'm not.
It's just, you know...

621
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,320
..12 years is long enough

622
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,120
to keep banging my head
against a brick wall.

623
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,640
Don't you dare!

624
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,720
Cos that would mean
the last 12 years of my life

625
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:47,480
meant nothing, too.

626
00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:51,040
OK.

627
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,880
New plan, then.

628
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,640
Oh, well, maybe you could've
fought me a bit harder there.

629
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,360
What about if we all apply,
all of us,

630
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,120
to see everything
the Post Office has got on us?

631
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:08,560
Horizon logs, investigation reports,
accounts, all of it.

632
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,280
And, er...
And then, if we can see them,

633
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,120
I think we've got
a much better chance...

634
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,160
SPEECH FADES OUT

635
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,680
JO: You have a lovely day.

636
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,080
And don't dawdle
when Mummy comes to pick you up.

637
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,160
Are you gonna come in and help?

638
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,680
No, darling, not today.

639
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,200
Bye-bye, Joshua.

640
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:34,840
Granny Jo loves you.

641
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,000
Bye-bye.

642
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,960
You were only gonna be
helping them make paper hats.

643
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,520
Yeah, it's not the school's fault.

644
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,600
They can't let me be alone
with the children

645
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,360
when they know
I've got a criminal record.

646
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,280
Oh, God.

647
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,120
Come on.
Mum, will you stop it?

648
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,160
TV PLAYING

649
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,400
SHE GRUNTS

650
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:06,880
SHE SIGHS

651
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,400
This all right?
Yeah.

652
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,880
It's fine. Love a toast-based meal.

653
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,400
Are you all right?

654
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,520
Yeah.

655
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,520
Never was any good to me, was it,
all that defective equipment?

656
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,960
Never did manage to pop
any babies out of it.

657
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,400
And, you know...
when you think about

658
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,640
the life we ended up having...

659
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,760
maybe it's OK
the children never came along.

660
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,560
I'm here, sorry.

661
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,760
Oh, I think this might be
what I've been waiting for.

662
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,280
Exciting.
Signature there, please.

663
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,840
Cheers. 'Do they think
we're idiots or what?

664
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,400
'146 pages blacked out.
It's ridiculous.'

665
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:17,440
Can you make any sense
of exactly what's been redacted?

666
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,040
No, I can't tell, it's all black.

667
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:20,960
But I'll tell you
what's definitely not there.

668
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,000
The memo from my investigator.

669
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,760
The one where he admitted
there's no evidence against me.

670
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,120
'The one that proves
it's a miscarriage of justice.'

671
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:30,720
Ridiculous.

672
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,760
JAMES ARBUTHNOT: 'The subpostmasters
applied to see this information,

673
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,120
'as is their right,

674
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,680
'and the Post Office think
they can just refuse to share it.

675
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,440
'It's simply inexplicable.'

676
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,880
What the Post Office is saying
is this.

677
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,200
That there have been
about half a million users

678
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:46,520
of the Horizon system

679
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,480
since it was introduced in 2001,
involved in Post Office business,

680
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,560
and that only 150 people

681
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,840
have applied to the mediation scheme

682
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,760
for events
spanning more than a decade.

683
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,160
The Post Office is saying

684
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,520
that the idea that there is
widespread unfairness

685
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:05,680
is simply not true.

686
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,120
Well, I would disagree.

687
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,120
These are people who have been
pillars of the community,

688
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,760
who've had their reputations
dragged through the mud,

689
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,160
who... who've been sent to prison,
some of them,

690
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:18,080
and I understand that at least one
has committed suicide.

691
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,360
And, Mrs Hamilton...

692
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,880
you believe that you have done
nothing wrong?

693
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,680
I have done nothing wrong.

694
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,080
'I did not take a penny
from the Post Office,

695
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,840
'but unfortunately,
the contract which runs the...'

696
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,720
Excuse me, could you just
turn the radio up? Thanks.

697
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:40,200
'..many of us in the Justice
For Subpostmasters Alliance

698
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:42,680
'didn't receive a copy of,
says quite clearly

699
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,000
'the postmaster is contractually
responsible for the losses.'

700
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,040
That's great.

701
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,640
'We did ask the Post office
for an interview.

702
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,760
'No-one was available.'

703
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,120
ALAN: 'Alan Bates?'

704
00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:00,560
'Hi, Alan. My name's James Hartley.
I'm a solicitor.

705
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,920
'Yeah, I just heard
the Radio 4 piece.

706
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,600
'I... I think I can help.'

707
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,160
'I always say to lawyers,

708
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,800
'we're fighting a war
against an enemy

709
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,720
'owned by the British government,

710
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:15,560
'which means they have mighty forces

711
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,680
'and bottomless pockets
funded by the taxpayer.'

712
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,480
While we're just...
skint little people.

713
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:23,640
JAMES CHUCKLES

714
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:27,680
Well, I specialise in contract law,

715
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,720
and this contract is...

716
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:33,680
114 pages of complete rubbish.

717
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,640
I only got the two-page version.
It's unfair.

718
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:38,680
It's out of date.

719
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,360
It even says you're not allowed
to gamble on the premises.

720
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,360
Yeah, when we've got
lottery terminals, yeah.

721
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:49,440
But, you know, we all signed it,
or some version of it, so...

722
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:50,840
Well, yes, but...

723
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,320
a contract that is not properly
understood by both parties

724
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,280
is not necessarily legally binding.

725
00:43:58,280 --> 00:43:59,880
OK.

726
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:04,000
Look, I think it may be possible
to raise the money

727
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,560
to fight them in court.

728
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,920
There are specialist funders

729
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:13,360
who are willing to take the risk,
but only if there are enough of you.

730
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,280
We had 130 applicants
to the mediation scheme

731
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,040
before the Post office destroyed it.

732
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,200
Mm.

733
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,480
Well, how many would you need?

734
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,080
At least 500.

735
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:34,760
Well... I can do that.

736
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,720
# Makin' me feel
Like I want too much

737
00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:48,640
# Livin' with you
Is just putting me through it

738
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,520
# All of the time... #
PHONE RINGS

739
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,480
Hello?

740
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,160
MAN: 'Is that Alan Bates?'

741
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:57,480
Yeah. Who's this?

742
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,560
'I worked at Fujitsu
in technical support.

743
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,520
'I was gonna call you...'
AUDIO CRACKLES

744
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,800
'..but I wanted to make sure you...'
AUDIO CRACKLES

745
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,240
Hang on, hang on.
You're breaking up.

746
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:10,320
I'm going to pull over.

747
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:20,840
Hello?

748
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:37,960
PHONE RINGS
Hello?

749
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,080
Sorry, I got cut off.
'No, no.'

750
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,000
I... I lost you.

751
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,040
I don't want anyone knowing
I'm talking to you.

752
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,360
Of course. I understand.

753
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,760
But they're lying. That's the point.

754
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,120
They say there's no remote access
to branch accounts,

755
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,560
but there was a whole room

756
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,920
full of us inside Fujitsu
working overnights,

757
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,160
doing thousands of corrections

758
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,440
on Horizon
while the postmasters slept.

759
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,320
Nobody's gonna admit it, obviously.

760
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:10,840
Are you still there?

761
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,480
Yes! Sorry.
Er, just getting comfortable.

762
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,400
Please, go on.

763
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,960
'We were just constantly
firefighting.

764
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,680
'Coding errors, bugs,
data corruption.

765
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:24,720
'Horizon was much worse
than I thought.

766
00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:27,360
'It was shocking.
It needed scrapping, really.

767
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,320
'It was hard-coded and hard-designed
for a completely...'

768
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:37,720
# God knows what is hiding
In those weak and drunken hearts

769
00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:41,600
# Guess he kissed the girls
And made them cry

770
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,840
# Those hard faced queens
Of misadventure

771
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:51,840
# People help the people

772
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,440
# And if you're homesick

773
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,320
# Give me your hand
And I'll hold it. #

774
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,360
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