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[Sue] Gender inequality is a global issue which affects women
throughout their lives.
Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX
And sport can be a powerful tool to drive positive change in this area.
Throughout history, women have been denied the opportunity
to fully enjoy sport like men.
And having been held back for so long, it has been hard
for women's sport to grow.
[motivational music]
[inaudible boxing commentator]
[commentator] And Chloe Kelly scores for England!
[commentator] Harrison to Scarratt, what a start for the Red Roses!
[Sue] But sport has a unique capacity to challenge culture and women's sport
and the profile of female athletes, can have a huge impact
on how women are viewed in society.
[slow piano music]
[soft water sounds]
[Sue] I've spent my working life wondering
if we'll ever achieve gender equality in sport.
["On/Off" by Fjodor playing]
[laughter]
[Sue] Gender inequality is a huge global issue.
And equality in sport is a powerful tool that could help us
change things across society.
[motivational epic music playing]
I'm Sue Anstiss and I've dedicated much of my career
to fighting for equality in women's sport.
[indistinct chatter]
[Sue] For over 100 years, women's sports has been seen
as the poor relation to men's.
Receiving little funding, resources or media coverage.
[Sue] If we look back to the beginning of the modern Olympic Games,
Pierre de Coubertin, he felt it was impractical, uninteresting,
unaesthetic, and incorrect for women to take part in any sports.
So right from the start there,
no woman have taken part in the Olympic Games.
It won't be until 2024
that we'll finally see equality in terms of women competing
in the same number of events. So I do feel quite depressed sometimes
with where we are. But we've moved on massively,
and we've moved on massively even in the last five years.
So I've seen a shift, I've worked in women's sport for 30 years
and I really have seen a shift.
But I've seen the biggest fight in the last two, three years or so?
Women's sport is really taking off, and the time is now.
So I'm really kind of excited for where you are
at the beginnings of your careers.
[emotional music]
[Sue] I went to Loughborough University and studied sports.
I had an amazing experience there,
but didn't really clock the gender inequality that was going on at the time.
[background laughter]
Like many in my generation, it was just something that I accepted.
Not really thinking the situation could be changed.
During the pandemic, I had time to finally research
and write a book about women's sport.
With women's sport being on the cusp of momentous change,
and finally starting to gain mainstream attention,
there seemed to be no better way to tell the story of these changes
and why it matters more broadly for all women.
I am lucky to know and work with so many incredible women in sport,
who have opened my eyes to a subject I thought I knew so well.
-Is that one running? -[Sue coughs]
Take two. It's very exciting to do that.
-Breathe. -[laughing]
Needs one of those, just in case. Habit.
My name is Denise Lewis
I'm a former Olympic Champion in the women's heptathlon.
My name's Laura Woods. I presented Breakfast Show and Talk Sport,
I work in football as well and then I do boxing too.
My name is Kelly Smith, I used to play football for Arsenal in England.
I'm Tanni Grey-Thompson, I'm a paralympian.
I used to do wheelchair racing, and I'm now a parliamentarian.
I'm Pamela Cookey, former England Netball Captain.
My name is Clare Balding.
I've been a broadcaster in sports for 30 years, I would guess?
And an author of seven books.
-It's quite nice to be interviewed by you. -Aw.
It's quite cool.
I'm very privileged to be taking to you.
I'm privileged, you're the one with the MBE.
I've barely got any GCSEs.
[both laugh]
[Tanni] Nelson Mandela said that sport has the power to change the world.
But the challenges for girls, haven't really changed
as long as I've been involved. In terms of how we treat sporty girls,
we still value sporty boys more than sporty girls.
Girls have less opportunities to compete.
There's less opportunities for media coverage and for sponsorship.
Although I think we are at a time when there are lots of positives,
there's still a lot of challenges for true equality.
We are not where I think I'd hoped we'd be
by this point in my life.
[Sue] During research for my book, I came across the work of Dr. Ali Bowes.
An academic who has extensively researched the world of women's sport.
I was keen to meet her in person as she truly understands
and is able to articulate the challenges that women's sport faces.
Initially, I probably wasn't that aware of a gender imbalance in sport.
So I loved doing sport at school,
and just took sport, really, for what it was at that time.
It was during my time at university where we started to look at
social issues in sport,
and in my own involvement in sport at university that I started to notice
women's sport was at such a kind of disadvantage to men's sport.
Which then prompted me to do research in it,
so did my PhD at Loughborough University.
And that very much centered on League Women's Sport and inequality
and starting to investigate some of those issues, I guess.
[Sue] In terms of that bigger picture then, can you give us
a little of the history as to how we got to find that gender imbalance?
Sport, in its very first instance,
was something that was really dominated by men.
If we are going back to the 19th century,
we've got industrialization, and we've got men working in factories
and sport became a way for factory earners to make sure
that the men were fit and healthy, so they had factory teams.
Sport has always been kind of developed for men.
There's a hangover effect to this day so people that have dominated sport,
that are in charge of sport, that made the rules of sport,
have always been men,
and that's been really hard to kind of break down and challenge, I think.
As I researched my book, I discovered there were two main reasons
that people have struggled with the concept of women playing sport.
The first, was the female frailty myth.
I think the female frailty myth has a really big piece of the puzzle
of understanding gender imbalance of sport.
We had these pockets of ideas from doctors, from scientists of that era,
that fundamentally rendered it impossible for women to take part in sport.
[Sue] We were these vessels that needed to have children,
it was all about having children, that was our purpose on this earth.
Lots of these ideas around issues with women's body
that centered on reproductive ability...
There was genuine belief that if we ran and we jumped,
our uteruses would fall out.
All these concerns that women were gonna pass out or collapse
or bleed, or whatever that might be...
It was okay for women to work in the fields and the factories,
and all that hard work. but it wasn't okay for them to play sport.
[Clare] So women's football is starting to grow through the late 1800s
and into the early 1900s.
And it's really building up,
particularly leading up to and during the First World War and directly after.
Where all the munition's factories had women's football teams
because the men had all gone off to war.
The women are treated completely differently
because suddenly they are given equal value, because they are necessary.
And Dick, Kerr Ladies is the example, the best of the women's teams
that grew out of that era.
[Sue] And the Dick, Kerr Ladies played in front of these massive, massive crowds.
They had 53,000 people who came to watch them play
at Goodison Park.
And there were 14,000 people waiting outside who couldn't get in.
I know that many people don't realize how women's football
was banned in England for 50 years.
I was surprised at just how much interest there was in this
when I mentioned it in a podcast.
When something's banned and your grandmother wasn't allowed to play
and your mother wasn't rewarded for playing,
it takes a while for that to work on through
where the best athletes are choosing football.
If you're not allowed to play at Wembley at all,
or any stadium, and most clubs don't have a women's team,
why would you choose football?
[Sue] Clearly social media has had a huge role to play
in spreading the word about women's sport.
But it's actually mainstream media, so the print media and broadcast media,
where we are really gonna reach a huge audience
and begin to bring people over to see how amazing women's sport can be.
It is always fantastic to have the opportunity
to talk on the media about women's sport.
It's a passion for me,
but to come and talk to someone like Stacey on her show means so much to me.
Because I know all that she's done for women's sport,
and all that she's still doing now to drive change.
Action!
[uplifting music playing]
-Hi. Too aggressive? -[laughter from crew]
My name's Stacey Copeland and I've represented my country in two sports.
Football and boxing.
Started boxings a child, so at age 6, 7.
My influences were fairly obvious. My dad was a boxer,
my grandad ran our boxing gym.
To be honest, I wasn't aware that I was a young woman,
I was just a kid in the boxing gym with all my mates.
And I did everything that all my little lad mates did.
I lived and breathed the sport, really, I loved it and everything about it
from the first time going to the gym. The sound of the skipping ropes,
the gloves hitting the bag,
the smell, which is horrible. [laughing]
But I just loved it and I got to the age of 11,
when you can usually start using skill bouts,
and that's when my grandad said, you know, "You can't box".
Sport is undoubtedly, I know I'm biased, we both are,
but definitely one of the most powerful things on the planet.
How does that manifest in society in the way we perceive men and women,
masculinity and femininity?
[Sue] Because sport is something that is so much a part of our culture,
not just in Britain but across the world.
It is something that impacts us in so many ways.
Sport, you know, reflects and magnifies what's happening in society
but I think also enables us to have some of those conversations
we wouldn't otherwise have within society.
[Stacey] When I found out that it was illegal
for girls and women to compete, I remember feeling mostly confused.
The thought that that thing I loved could be illegal was just bizarre.
It wasn't really until then that I became acutely aware that being a girl
was gonna be a major problem.
The second issue I found was the role femininity plays in women's sport.
In terms of gender stereotypes, I don't think there is any reason why
male or female genitalia or body parts makes you better or worse
at any sport in the world.
It's the masculine and feminine attributes that tend to cause a problem.
When you get women doing sports as I did, like boxing,
that challenge society's definition of what's feminine...
I think there's a number of things which people find unsettling about women boxing.
For the majority, it's about femininity.
It challenges femininity in such an obvious, brutal, visceral way.
I think people really struggle with it.
For many female athletes, it's been said there's a balance in that
between being seen as a feminine woman and being seen as a legitimate athlete.
Because it doesn't make sense to be able to be both.
Lots of researchers have kind of talked about this disconnect, really,
and framed it as the female athlete paradox.
And very much is around how female athletes
balance those competing demands
of society expecting them to be a certain type of woman.
and society expecting sport to look a certain way.
[Laura] The perception of women is that we don't fight,
and that we shouldn't be involved in combat sports
because it's not ladylike and it's not feminine.
But they are amazing athletes, and if you can appreciate that,
that will start to change people's perception of things.
[motivational music]
We're getting ready for the World Cup,
we really wanna go out there and do our best at trying to win it.
We're going to New Zealand, the Reigning Champs,
I don't think you'll see anyone holding back.
[motivational electronic music]
[Sue] I think because it is obviously the selection for the World Cup,
you just can feel the energy.
[women shouting]
I wanted to include rugby in the documentary.
I think for me, of all the team sports, women's team sports that are there,
it is probably the one that most challenges
what society feels is traditionally feminine.
The power and strength and you know, the aggression around rugby.
So for me, it almost is the sport that
can probably have the most impact in that space too.
And I'm a massive rugby fan as well, so that helps.
I started playing when I was 6 years old.
My mom messaged the local rugby club and said, "Hey, can we bring down
my two children?" And he went, "Yeah, of course, we always need more boys."
And mom was like, "No, they're two girls",
and he was like, "oh", and really taken back by it.
Luckily my sister was in the same age group, we were the only two girls
in the mini section, and that was the story growing up.
There were never many other girls, it was always a novelty.
"Look, there's a team! Oh, they've got girls on their team."
[Captain] How we start is so important and that's [unintelligible]
[Poppy] When I go back to clubs and speak about it, that's not an issue anymore,
there's so many there, these clubs are thriving.
There's three teams, there's under 13's, under 15's, under 18's,
and there's just so many more playing.
And do you think attitudes are changing in society towards women's rugby as well?
I do, yeah, 100 percent do, just not very quickly.
We still get, like 10 years ago, if you interviewed the girls,
and still get the comments that we do right now, it's exactly the same.
-[Sue] On social media? -[Poppy] Yeah, it's just boring, so boring
like, "Oh, didn't know women played".
Yeah, okay, cool, like, where have you been living, sort of thing?
Everything that goes with just being a woman that plays rugby.
Sometimes it can get a bit draining, and just constantly get you down.
You know, the stigmas, the nasty perception we have of women
just trying to play sports and enjoy themselves.
Why do you think that-- I spend my life thinking why that is, why do you think,
where do you think that stems from, that negativity around women playing sports?
[Poppy] I do think it is learnt, the sayings, the expressions,
"Oh, you play rugby, you must be a lesbian",
"Oh, you play rugby, that's really manly".
People don't challenge it, people just stick with the majority, they laugh along.
You're essentially bullying someone, you're degrading them
to achieve what at the end of the day?
[all] Red Roses!
[Sue] 1950s, so the All American Girls baseball leagues,
So again, Second World War, men have gone off to war.
Wrigley, the chewing gum magnet, didn't want to lose out
on all that audience and the sponsors he'd got for baseball,
so he created a female league.
They were almost the first professional female athletes of their time.
Women came from all over the country to trial
but they were judged on how they looked.
Helena Rubinstein came in and would give them make up lessons,
they had to have their hair a certain way,
they weren't allowed to wear shorts or trousers at any point.
They had to play in skirts!
So they're sliding into the bases but they had to do it in skirts.
They only felt people would be attracted to women playing sport
if it was seen as really feminine.
Our understanding of what we think masculine and feminine means,
is so limited and so damaging to men and to women.
We just need a broader mind about this.
Women can be strong and ambitious and competitive.
Men can be kind and compassionate and vulnerable.
All of these things are allowable,
and to not let them be, is, I think, the cause of a lot of issues.
I think a challenge for women sport going forward, is that--
it's still a lot based on how you look.
You know the way you look has played a big part
in your sponsorship opportunities and your marketing opportunities.
The question is, will that ever change?
[Tanni] You know, women get judged differently,
you're meant to not just be a brilliant sportsperson,
but you're meant to look beautiful and not sweaty
and have your hair and makeup done as well.
Where men don't get judged in the same way,
and I think that's one of the things that sometimes makes it really hard
for girls to come in because they still are judged in a different way.
[Denise] Femininity, that whole conversation around femininity and sport,
I think it's still an issue.
If you don't feel that your beauty is being valued
when you've got fantastic muscles and you're strong,
it affects your decision making.
Competitive girls are talked about in a different way,
as if it's kind of not as good, or less than
or you're a bit of an oddity because you want to be competitive in sports.
It's hard to untie those ideas of women being frail,
us expecting women to be feminine, and then accepting women
as kind of strong, aggressive sportswomen.
It's really hard to pull those ideas apart.
Women that are extremely strong, there is still a bit of a stereotype
for the girls that don't have that sort of svelte like body shape.
And that, we still need to work on, because we don't see it,
we don't see those type of women on front covers,
we don't see them being championed
as fantastically strong, beautiful women
that exude power.
We still have a problem with that.
[Sue] It's really important that women can be all things
and that women don't have to fit that mold of what is feminine and tiny
and all the stuff that social media and the media might tell you.
Women can be all kinds of things.
And actually sport, when we see and celebrate these amazing women in sport
what does that tell us about else we can be in our lives?
It really excites me to see more female athletes being shown,
because usually it was just the big and strong male athletes that you'd see
and everyone would think that they're the best of the best.
It's just nice to see women doing sport
where usually they aren't shown off as much.
Never showed off as much as the men,
where you always see what the men are doing,
and you always know what they're doing. But now,
you see more of how the women are performing and how well they're doing.
Having more coverage of it, and making it easier to watch,
so we can just go downstairs and find the Netball to watch,
it makes me really happy, because it used to be
you had to find it online and then put it on the TV somehow,
but now it's really easy to watch and it's exciting
to have more coverage of women's sport.
So more people are watching it, and more people are understanding
why we enjoy it so much.
[fantastical music]
[Ali] The origin of Netball actually gives a really good indication
as to the kind of history of men and women's sports.
Netball was derived from basketball
but pulled in all those ideas about the acceptability of women's bodies.
We had this sport of basketball, competitive, in your face contact,
so netball, we removed the contact.
Put women in little zones so that they couldn't move.
All these rules to make the sport much less vigorous.
And therefore acceptable for women to take part in.
I think the history of netball then is really interesting
in starting to understand why women do certain sports
and why we have certain expectations.
[crowd cheering]
[Pamela] Netball has changed massively throughout my career.
Back then, it was just what you did in school
and people have that preconception of school girl netball, you know,
the slow stop, start, pivot, that kind of thing.
But so different to what we see now on TV,
and I think we can now see these amazing athletes on court
doing such wonderful things.
I think that's the massive change that I've seen in netball.
It's not just a sport in school,
it's a sport that you can take throughout your life.
[Clare] Hello! You all right?
-[Sue] Yeah! -[Clare] Good, good.
[Clare] Good to see you too, mate.
-[Woman] Hello! -[Clare] Hello, hello!
How are you?
[Clare] I mean our connection through netball and team sport has been years.
-[Sue] Yeah, yeah. -[Clare] Years and years, hasn't it?
Something that connected us in the beginning keeps us together now.
That's pretty scary isn't it? How many years, 40 years on.
Goal keeper, goal defence, we played together, didn't we?
All those years ago.
-[Clare] And played against each other... -[Sue] Yeah.
...so a little bit of together and then a little bit of competition.
[Sue] Yeah, you were always quite competitive, were you?
-[Clare] That lives on! -No, that hasn't changed!
[Clare] And then some high knees, hop them right up.
[Clare] Over the years, we've watched our girls come through and play netball,
and I know that Daisy's coach for the club but she's also done the coaching
and she's here tonight coaching as well.
Hopefully, we've giving them something for life in the way that we have had.
[Clare] I think it will always be with them.
I think they've all played at uni and post school and things like that.
There will always be a sport wherever they go they can get involved with,
having played netball over the years.
-Yay, go us! -Yeah!
So, blue shoe that way, yellow shoe that way.
[whistle blow]
[shouting and laughter]
[Sue] It's easy to forget the importance of sport for women throughout their lives.
[Player] Can I get a high five?
I've personally enjoyed the positive impact
of walking netball sessions for women.
It's more than just getting out and having fun with friends each week,
although that is important.
Foul play going on over here!
It's all the mental and physical health benefits women get
from being physically active.
This can have a huge impact on a woman's health as she ages.
[Clare] One nill for blue!
I'm so pleased that my daughters still love sport,
but sadly that's not the case for many girls and young women.
Research in 2022 shows that more than a million British teenage girls
who once considered themselves as sporty,
disengage from sport after primary school.
Couple of girls from our team, they don't wanna play anymore.
A lot of them didn't feel comfortable wearing the short dress when playing.
It doesn't really help you play because it would be easier
if you played in trousers or shorts.
It's easier to run in, it's easier to do jumps.
With the dresses, you're always pulling it down
to make sure everything is covered or you're self conscious
about wearing a dress.
Women wearing dresses to play sport,
it makes absolutely no sense to put women in dresses and say, okay--
The logic there is because it helps performance, because it obviously doesn't.
Some women want to wear dresses and they're very comfortable like that,
as the outfit that you wear to play sport, and that's fine I guess,
but I think to have, like, uniform restrictions
or to make it so that women have to wear dresses,
that's really problematic.
I think especially if someone might feel a different way about their body
and they don't want to wear a small tight dress,
then I feel angry for them if they don't wanna wear it.
Because it's just harder to, I don't know,
feel confident in yourself while you're playing if you're wearing
something that's tiny and not something you usually wear anywhere else.
I would love to know who sits on the various committees
that say, you know, girls have to wear absolute bare minimum for clothing
and boys can be covered up.
[Sue] This is the Norwegian beach handball team.
This is last year, this is 2021.
It's practical for the guys to wear baggy shorts and t-shirts
but for the girls to be in tiny bikinis?
The girls said they wanted to play in shorts, not in these tiny bikinis,
they actually had a limit of how tiny it had to be at the side.
They didn't want to play in that, so they played in shorts
and they were fined 1,500 euros by the International Federation
because they broke the law and wore shorts rather than these bikinis.
You can kind of see that impact from being overly feminine
that then becomes to objectifying women too.
[upbeat music]
[crowd cheering]
[Clare] Good evening and welcome to the BT Sport Action Woman Awards!
It was back in 2013, this epic celebration of women in sport began.
The appetite for women's sport has never been greater.
She may be the youngest of our contenders, but my goodness she is mighty.
It's diving sensation Andrea Spendolini-Sirieix.
[crowd applauding]
I think sports and this year especially have shown that...
...women are strong.
and nothing can stop you from doing what you want to do.
Your age doesn't stop you, gender doesn't stop you,
sexuality doesn't stop you.
And what's so great about all of the women in this room,
all of the athletes in this room,
is we don't let what society's saying--
it doesn't limit us, and won't limit us in the future.
[crowd cheering and applauding]
We need to move with the times.
Sportswomen are asking for change, they want to still do their sport
but not have to be revealing their bodies in ways
that don't make them feel comfortable.
I think sport, it definitely mirrors and magnifies what we see in society
so I think it can playback what we see and that may be around gender inequality,
around racism and other issues.
But it also has the opportunity to have some of those conversations
to be a lens and to drive change. And then we talk about it,
we see it in sport, and then perhaps we go and talk about it elsewhere.
So people get really uncomfortable talking about periods,
but it's something that happens to half of the population, half the world,
and yet we still feel uncomfortable talking about it.
But if we can have that conversation around.
"Is it appropriate for women to be playing in white shorts?"
Can we have that conversation in sport, and then come back
and have that conversation in society?
I've read a third of girls say their periods stopped them
from getting active in schools this year.
That's an increase of 10% from previous years
according to the EEAST board trust.
Dr. Emma Ross was the head of physiology at The English Institute of Sport
and led research into the challenges faced by elite sportswomen.
She now shares those learnings more widely to help all women and girls
through her company The Well HQ.
-[Emma] Hello! -[Sue] Hello! How are you?
[Sue] Very nice to see you!
[Emma] When I first started going around to elite sports and saying,
"I really want to bring up periods, menstrual cycles,
as a really important topic of conversation",
one of the first things that the athletes would say is, "Emma we have spent so long
pretending there isn't anything female about us,
because we want equality here in sport,
we want the same coaching as men, we want the same facilities,
we want the same media coverage, we want the same pay
so to do that, we've had to sort of shut off what is female about us."
And they were worried that it would be seen as fragile,
if there's lots of males it could be embarrassing,
and so we have had to break down some of that and actually say,
"No, this is your right, to belong in sport and have sport designed for you."
We're all adults and we're all women who experience the same things,
and this can be absolutely carnage.
It's carnage for me in my workplace, and I don't have to physically perform
in front of people, and reach for a ball
that's gonna make me straddle meters and meters.
Girls and women don't tend to want to wear white when they're on their period.
Mostly because of the fear of leaking, not many girls will actually leak
through their period products, but the fear that it might happen
particularly if you're on a sports field in front of your family and friends.
For me it's about removing these things that cause anxiety.
When you're trying to be an athlete and you're trying to perform at your best
whether you're trying to crack a PB at parkrun
or you're The Lionesses at Wembley,
you want the headspace to be able to focus on your sport.
You don't want to be thinking, "Am I leaking? Am I leaking?"
And so it just seems common sense to me
that you wouldn't put girls and women in white kit.
I mean, tradition is one thing,
and there's a lot of conversation in around Wimbledon whether
about "Why do we still wear whites to play?"
Wimbledon's decision to adjust its "all whites" rule
and allow women to wear colored undershorts from 2023
is a step in the right direction.
We can't be locked on tradition in a time and a world
where everything is changing.
We just got to be listening and be open.
It's not about one answer being right and one answer being wrong
but it's about having open conversations with the people who are wearing this kit
and saying, "Does it work for you?"
So we're seeing those conversations
and things that maybe we're a little uncomfortable
to have a conversation about.
But sport, having it in the lens of sport enables us to have those conversations
and for me, that can be really, really powerful.
[Sue] The gender pay gap is another global concern
where women's sport has the potential to highlight the issue,
start conversations and drive important change.
The U.S Women's National Soccer Team fought a very public battle for equal pay.
Finally, in 2022 the Federation agreed
to a landmark equal pay agreement.
There's these tens of millions of dollars in back pay owed to female players
and means equal pay for male and female soccer players
at all tournaments including the World Cup.
It was a pleasure to talk to Becca Roux
who played a crucial role in the equal pay settlement
for The U.S National Women's Soccer Team.
[Becca] I mean, even in 2017 when I first started negotiating,
equal pay was not on the table. It just was not an option.
It was not something that was fathomable to the men
that we were negotiating with on the other side.
They did not think we deserved it.
In the case of the American Women,
the U.S Soccer Team has overachieved for decades.
There should never have been any argument or fight.
But you kind of have to make it law really,
for them, there's no argument,
someone else has has done the fight for you.
There's been lots of occasions where I've thought, "This is it.
This is the moment. Everything is gonna be different from now."
[chuckles] And then it isn't.
It just all goes back to so called normal.
I would hope that big moments like
the U.S Women's Team getting equal pay will impact things.
But I know better than to assume it will be inevitable.
[soft emotional music]
I loved football as well, and I was a very competitive kid.
So I went into football,
got my first ever England call up which, at that point, as a youngster,
when you get that first call up,
you don't know if that's ever gonna happen again.
So at that point, it is the best thing ever in your life.
And you used to get a letter then, with the three lions on,
and it was just the most exciting thing ever.
And I worked in a factory at the time, I was 16 and I went to my boss.
And I said, "I need a week off".
And I gave him this letter and I just stood there.
He said, "You want me to give you a week off to play
for a woman's football team?"
I said, "Yeah", and he made all these jokes and comments
and I said, "Look, it really means a lot to me, can I just take it unpaid?"
to which he agreed, and I walked out of the office
feeling ashamed to begin, silly for thinking it was a big deal.
Not to play for England's football team, but the England Women's football team.
And I learned there was a big difference.
[Denise] Despite all of the progress we've made in women's sport,
at a league level,
there are still too many barriers that limit young girls
actually choosing a life in sport,
and being comfortable wanting to pursue that
and taking it into their later life.
[Clare] It would be wrong for any of us to think that this is solved
because it's not.
How we go about making change is really important
and it has to change at grassroots level.
Research shows the main reason women and girls don't take part in sport
is fear of judgment.
Sport England's This Girl Can campaign
took these findings and turned them on their head.
Reshaping the way women think about exercise.
Celebrating and normalizing women being sweaty and having fun.
Access to sport and physical activity
is important for all women throughout the entirety of their lives.
This isn't just about elite sport.
We need more women to be involved
in the highest levels of management in sport.
As we know this helps ensure decisions about access,
opportunity, and funding catered to the needs of everyone.
Including women and girls.
[Tanni] At its worse, there are a lot of senior men
making big decisions about women's sport without actually talking to women.
It's so important to have women in these roles
because I think it changes the conversation.
We still have to go, "Okay, what about women and girls?"
But that is getting less, and I can't wait for the day
when it's just accepted as "we look after everybody"
rather than having to kind of go "what about the people we've forgotten?"
-Which side do you want me on? -Come and grab a chair.
-Don't know, you happy there? -Yeah.
[Sue] Now this will be the 100th episode,
and this is also the first time I've ever come back to return
and talk to a guest for a second time.
And what a guest, Sally Munday, CEO of U.K Sport.
We've obviously seen enormous progress for Women's Sport in the past decade,
but there is still much more to do.
What do you feel are the real priority areas
for accelerating that change moving forward?
We gotta stop saying "Thank you"
to people for being interested in women's sport.
We've got to stop saying "Thank you"
to the media and the broadcasters for showing it.
"Oh, thank you for the crumbs,
thank you for giving us a little bit of airtime".
Or "Thank you for giving us a little bit of sponsorship".
These are incredible athletes
who are playing incredible sport.
And who can't help but get wrapped up in it all.
And I think that we, and I know I have a responsibility
in the job that I have,
to just stop apologizing,
stop taking "Thank you" for the tidbits that we get.
And I genuinely believe that we are on the cusp with women's sport.
[applause]
I think there still needs to be more work done
on coverage of women's sport.
Seems to be a lot of lazy journalism out there.
That media plays a big part
in the print media where it is so focused on men.
The print media has been controlled by a certain type of white male
for probably 200 years.
And the sports that they think matter,
men's football, men's rugby union, men's cricket,
are promoted and constantly written about.
Women's sport really struggles to get that profile.
Traditionally, most newspapers have overlooked women's sport,
and we're yet to see much change in that area.
The situation is really improving in broadcast though,
with women's sport receiving a lot more coverage in recent years.
And the quality of that coverage is improving too.
I don't know why there's an animosity
to perhaps feeling slightly threatened by it.
I know that some people feel it's being shoved down their throat.
But I think there is media attention for a reason,
it is a product that actually can sell.
It's an environment now where broadcasters see it can bring a big audience.
It's proven it can bring a big audience.
Things look better with more cameras, with better quality cameras,
with really good studios.
[fast upbeat music]
[applause]
Welcome back to The BT Sport Action Woman Awards 2022!
What a year it's been for our teams.
Invest properly in women's sport and thou shalt receive.
[Sue] In recent years, the England Red Roses
have been one of the leading examples of increased investments in women's teams
resulting in on field success.
We're here at Sandy Park ready to watch England play the U.S.A.
in the first of the test games ahead of the World Cup.
Whoo!
[Sue] Very exciting. Especially lots of players that don't know
whether they're gonna be on that squad
that's gonna be announced in a couple of weeks.
[fast decisive music]
[Sue] I'm hoping it should be a big scoring,
and I think there might be some questions to be answered if it isn't.
But we'll see how it goes!
[crowd cheering]
[fast decisive music buildup]
[crowd cheering continues]
[Sue] Pretty amazing, an hour or so after the game,
they're still all here and taking photographs with their fans.
It's just incredible.
[fast decisive music]
[crowd cheering]
[Poppy] We got the two wins, got a good send out from the crowd.
Just really excited to get going in on the plane and into New Zealand.
[Sue] It's amazing to think that tonight, we've had almost 12,000 people
in the crowd watching an England women's game.
And it's mid week, you know, it's a busy week too.
But a few years ago, we would've been really lucky
just to have a couple thousand come and support.
The fact that these numbers are coming out
for a tournament through the World Cup is just extraordinary.
And it must mean so much to the players.
You just see the young fans are so excited to meet the players.
Get their autographs and selfies.
It's just amazing to see.
-This is my favorite player. -Who is?
-You. -Me?!
Yeah.
-[woman's laughter] -[Man] Thank you so much.
[Sue] To me, the Red Roses are a fantastic example of the power
of women's sport to inspire the next generation.
And in the last few years, I've really noticed their impact
rippling throughout the rugby community
and beyond.
[Molly] I think it's really exciting and it shows what can happen when
women's sport is taken seriously,
and given the respect and resources that it deserves to have.
[laughter]
[Molly] We here have a really lovely community
of like, really... really feminist club.
You come in and you feel very like, supported and empowered.
[coach] What do I want to see you guys doing with each other?
-[player] Communicate. -Communicating.
-[players] Energy. -[coach] Supporting.
Yeah, and some really good celebration of each other's good work.
[players cheering]
We're a higher rank team, than our boy's first team.
We're in the league-- technically in the league above them.
And they come and watch us and they support us,
and that's really nice, we're really appreciative.
But it's really hard in a way, because then you have a conversation
with some of them after who come and watch and it's like,
"Why can no one kick a conversion?"
That's been the big thing recently, it's that we don't have a conversion kicker.
The reason we don't have a conversion kicker,
or the reason that we don't do things as slickly as they do,
is because they picked rugby for the first time at 18, or 19.
We get people who join in their final year of uni,
they're 21, they picked up a ball of rugby for the first time.
In terms of affording women's sport that equal status,
it's a men's sport, and it's not resting on
whether the men support or the women support or not,
but when they do, it just adds that extra authority
to the fact that this is an equal sport.
Especially because society is so male orientated anyway,
men's voices are afforded a bit more power than women's voices.
-How does that make you feel? -[laughing] So unfair, I hate it so much.
It's like, actually, it shouldn't need that for the support to be there.
But like, kind of, if that's the way the system is
maybe we need to like-- that does need to happen.
[Stacey] At the grassroots level, I find that
dads of daughters are really powerful when it comes to wanting more.
Quite often, they've gone through life with no sport being a barrier to them,
and then they've had this little girl who they love more than anything,
and suddenly come across all this inequality and unfairness
and go, "Oh, my God, this isn't right!", because they've known how it should be.
My grandad taught me on the boxing gym trip to New York when I was 10,
and we went into a very, very well known gym,
and I went on the bag and started training and some guy came over and said you know,
"We don't have woman in here",
and my grandad said, "well, that's my granddaughter
and she'll be training or we're all leaving".
And of course they had fights lined up and everything,
and there was kind of a moment, and I thought, "What's he doing?
[laughter] He's gonna wreck the whole trip", and this guy just said,
"Well, all right, just make sure she stays on that bag" or whatever.
He, not only believed in opportunities for me,
but stood up to another man.
In a very male dominated environment.
I'm just someone that's a fan of female sport, that's all it is.
But I sit under the banner of being a male ally.
And I do think the tag "male ally" puts people off.
I think it does put people off.
When a female comes watch to male's sport,
whether it's football, rugby, whatever it might be,
they're not waving a flag saying "Hey, I'm a female ally!"
They're not, they're just a fan of the sport.
But there seems to be this-- and I don't know what it is,
maybe it's just this perception, like you're stepping out,
and look at you all self-righteous and trying to do the right thing.
[crowd cheering]
It's not us all of a sudden, just decided we all wanna do it,
we're doing it because it's unignorable.
The quality of it and the brilliance of it is making more men step up and step out
and showing their support. And I do hope
and I would encourage any bloke to step out
and show your love and support.
I think because we live in such a male dominated society,
until there is equality, you can never be too much of a male ally.
[Stacey] I think 2022 is such a massive year
for sport in general in this country. But certainly for women's sport.
If we just go back a very short time to 2020,
I remember being interviewed on television a few times,
and every single time being asked the question,
"What's gonna happen to women's sport? Is it gonna disappear?
Is this the end?"
And me thinking, "Are these people crazy?" like, what-- [laughs]
As if all of us who've dedicated our whole lives to sport were gonna go,
"Oh... well, that's it now." [laughs]
"Let's just all go home because we haven't had a few games for a season!"
Absolutely not.
And I think the one thing that made women sport
perfectly adaptable for this is we've had a gazillion barriers to overcome anyway.
We've always had to overcome barriers just to set foot in the ring,
on the pitch, on the court, wherever.
So we're actually quite suited to adversity I think.
And certainly in the case of women's boxing,
COVID helped us know no end,
because the argument has always been that we couldn't sell tickets,
and tickets were no longer an issue, because they just had to get shows on
for the TV deals, and they ended up putting women on them
and they've become, you know, mega in the sport of boxing now.
[crowd cheering]
The case of Taylor and Amanda Serrano fight,
personally I feel that whenever there's a massive moment in women's sport,
we all kind of feel it. It resonates.
They've had the same struggle that we've had as a female athlete.
[commentator] How many years has Amanda Serrano
toiled for this opportunity?
[Laura] I've been to some amazing sporting events in my lifetime
and honestly, the atmosphere for Katie Taylor's walk on
was the best I've ever experienced.
-Katie Taylor! -[crowd cheering]
And it was something about her walk on that was almost spiritual.
She walked so slowly, and she really took everything in.
[epic emotional music]
Two females headlining at Madison Square Garden,
it's never been done before.
[commentator] Ten rounds for history!
Boxing is my sport, it was my first love.
I was really pleased for her to have that opportunity.
But then there's something about New York for me.
Having been there as a 10-year-old told that I couldn't even go on the bag
at a gym not very far away,
all I could imagine was that 10-year-old girl,
stood outside Madison Square Garden looking at these massive posters
of these icons and heroes of women's boxing.
[nostalgic emotional music]
A feeling as a little girl, was again
one that I was to become familiar with again, and again, and again
through childhood, my formative years, my adult years.
It has a massive impact in how you feel about yourself, how you perceive yourself.
Your place in the world, your identity, your self worth.
And it's much bigger than sport,
and then the fact that they put on one of the best fights,
that was the important bit.
[Laura] It just didn't become anything about females,
it became about the most amazing fight,
the amazing combat within that fight as well.
[commentator] Never count out Katie Taylor!
They more than delivered.
And it was a sense of relief, as much as excitement,
that they really seized that moment.
-[presenter] And still, the undisputed... -[crowd cheers]
...Heavyweight Champion of the World,
-Katie Taylor! -[crowd cheering]
[Laura] There was no gender relevance, it was just two incredible sports people,
it felt like a real game changer.
[commentator] The greatest female fighter of all time!
[Stacey] When the power of sport is used in the right way,
what a difference that would've made, and it didn't happen for me,
you know what? That's okay.
Because some of us have to do the ground work to make sure
that that happens for others.
And that is now happening for those little girls.
And that's just an amazing thing for our society.
[soft piano music]
[Sue] The changing situation in the world because of COVID,
led me to set up Fearless Women, an agency whose sole aim
is to drive change in women's sport.
One of my favorite activities is talking to trail blazing women in sport
for my podcast "The Game Changers".
Hello, welcome! Thank you.
Sarah, firstly, huge congratulations on your selection!
Thank you, it has been quite challenging the last few years,
with of COVID and injury and things like that.
So yeah, to finally know you've made the squad
and you're gonna be on that plane to New Zealand,
and compete at the pinnacle of women's rugby, it's like,
it's huge. As I've got older,
I've learned to recognize that and realize that
it's more than just myself,
and more than just having an internal motivation
and especially an external motivation of what I can do
as an athlete, as an international Red Rose.
I think the investment that we've seen in the Red Roses,
it's allowed, for the first time,
Red Roses to be the best versions of themselves.
Not having to wrestle between going to work nine to five,
and then fitting in training at the back of it.
The consequence of that, furthermore, is it's put pressure on everyone else
to be able to level up and give the women exactly what they need.
I feel like, and it shouldn't be this way,
but it feels like the women's game needs to go further.
Or the proof needs to be further in a case for investment,
it's not just success, because if it was success,
they'd be getting better funding than the men.
-Yeah, yeah, yeah. -It's just not as simple as that.
[emotional uplifting music]
[Clare] When I think about the European championships,
I just smile because it was so wonderful to have the whole country
locked into the progress of a team growing and blossoming before our eyes.
[Kelly] Playing in front of home crowds and sold out stadiums,
a lot of them have probably never done that before.
[commentator] The biggest ever woman's Euro tournament gets underway!
With the largest ever crowd for the competition!
[Sue] On the pitch, England got better and better with each game.
And arrived at the finals as unbeaten favorites.
What's more, with each game, support for The Lionesses
was growing across the nation and in the media.
Come on, England!
[Clare] You still feel that tension when it comes to a final,
and you know anything could happen.
We get to see England beat Germany, and we beat bitter rivals...
Whoo! Party!
...and just looking around and seeing lots of red and white
and you couldn't see an empty seat.
And I was pinching myself thinking "Is this really happening in this country,
a woman's game sold out like this?"
[Sue] It did feel like this was the final that Euro'22 deserved.
[Kelly] And for me, England and Germany had played the best,
most attractive football all tournament.
And the finish by Toone was outstanding,
and you just think, "Wow, I'm gonna pinch myself,
we're gonna do this, we're gonna win a gold medal finally."
And then obviously they went down the other end and scored.
[crowd cheering]
And then, extra time.
And you're thinking, "we gotta push for this, we gotta believe, keep going".
Then obviously, Chloe Kelly popped up, and with that little toe poke.
[crowd cheering]
[Kelly] We were crying even before the final whistle,
because we knew we'd won the game and we were hugging each other,
jumping up and down, singing "Sweet Caroline"
and we were just bawling, we were like, "What are we doing?"
We are about to see England winning and lifting the trophy!
[crowd cheering]
Thought we'd never ever see it!
And it's happening pretty good, yeah!
Because football is the biggest global sport,
and England's win was watched by such a huge audience,
it really helped shift the public perceptions about women's sport.
[Stacey] Kids will now be growing up,
and those early memories that really grip them
and make them excited about sport,
will be of female athletes, female teams,
and there's a lot, males and females, after that will say,
"We" rather than "They",
when they talk about the women's football team.
♪ Sabrina you're the one ♪
♪ Football's coming home again ♪
[Kelly] I think these Lionesses from this summer,
what they done for the country, for the nation,
for all those young girls and boys out there,
have really made women's sport, not just football, acceptable.
And that you can be strong, fit, and muscular, and be out there,
sweating and fighting for your country to win a tournament.
You know I didn't have that growing up
and these young kids can look up to these players and think,
"Wow, this is something special, I want to be like them."
[emotional music]
[Sue] That final at Wembley was record breaking
in terms of a final for the Euros, but not only for the women's Euros,
that was record breaking for men's or women's Euros.
So the proof points now at last are there
for those people that have always said that there's no audience.
The Lionesses were incredible in terms of this moment in time.
The moments in time shift the dialogue.
There was a discussion two years ago, women's sport was over,
and now it's kind of taken over.
The Distinguished Alumni is a category of awards
that we can give within Loughborough University.
And it's to recognize colleagues that show now standing inspiration,
merit achievement and sustained commitment in a particular role.
I am really delighted to honor Sue Anstiss MBE
with our Distinguished Alumni Award
for outstanding contributions to grassroot and women's sport.
It does mean so much to be back here at Loughborough.
I was passionate about sport, but it was very much the university
that ignited a passion and made me realize the impact that I could have through sport
and the impact that sport can have.
[Laura] Women's sport, I think, has a vast amount of potential.
It will only grow.
[Clare] Now there are so many more women working in sport,
so many of them are paying it forward, and that's really exciting.
[Sue] It's been almost 35 years I now reflect,
since I last left Loughborough.
And across that time, the transformation in women's sport
has been quite extraordinary.
Vast increases in terms of profile and visibility,
crowds coming in to watch what are now professional athletes
that weren't paid in the past.
It's such a good time to be involved in women's sport right now.
It's getting better, there's still a lot of work to be done
but the participation, and particularly in women's football
and some of the team games has risen tenfold.
And that makes me very happy.
[Tanni] I think a lot of young girls now have role models to look up to
and think "I can do that".
[Clare] Girls in schools expect now
to be treated the way the boys are treated,
to be taken seriously, to be coached professionally,
to be given the opportunity.
Progress isn't an inevitable thing,
it's people coming together that make it happen.
I hope that I can encourage everyone to join me
as we keep on striving for those changes
that will eventually result in equality for all women and girls in sports.
So thank you so much.
[crowd applauds]
[Sally] I really hope that in 10 years' time,
we're not even having these conversations.
We, I think all, have a responsibility, whatever our role,
to keep talking about how diversity
leads to better decision making, it leads to better outcomes.
We all have a responsibility to challenge misogyny when it happens.
We're not yet over the hump, we've still got a long way to go,
and that is encumbered on all of us who have leadership roles
to make the change.
We need to continue driving on, right, we can't let people sit down and say,
"Well, we've done that, that's equality sorted".
You know? "That'll do".
The big thing is, what do you want it to be?
What is women's professional sport?
And how does that differ from men's professional sport?
And there are many ways in which it should differ,
and they're all good ways.
One problem with talking about the development of women's sport,
especially in a professional capacity, is expecting it to mirror the men's game.
It's not going to, and do we want it to anyway?
I'd love women's sport to emulate some of what's happening in men's sport.
We want to try and emulate all the really good things,
and try and stay away from some of the negative things.
Women's sport can show us how sport should be,
when you're looking at professionalism,
and you're looking at the business structure,
what could it be? How do you make those improvements?
And do it with the women's game because you're not dealing with
a whole lot of baggage, and people saying,
"It's always been like this", because it hasn't.
It's never been like anything. So start again.
The men's games have been professional in this country 22 years,
we've made so many mistakes.
The women's game doesn't have to go through the pain the men's game did.
It doesn't have to all be how it's been for the last hundred years.
I think women's sport has an opportunity to do things a little bit differently
and think outside the box in how, maybe to have sustainable professional sport?
We can build women's sport differently as a more inclusive positive place.
Creating a more sustainable model for a league sport
that can also drive powerful societal change in the world.
With investment in the women's game, that's when you'll see a change.
And that's when you'll see the skill level increase.
And it takes time, and it takes interest and investment.
It's how you grow something, you can't just overnight say, "It's here".
[Sue] I think it's really important that we don't just measure
women's sport in terms of eyeballs and numbers and the traditional metrics
that we've used for men's sport. Women's sport has so much more to offer.
And one of the key elements is that association
with all of the values that come with women's sport.
Companies who understand what women's sport can bring them,
are actively looking at sponsoring clubs and individuals
and events for women. They know it brings a different audience.
They know it brings a more positive and warm and lovely atmosphere.
They know that they will get more interaction with the players.
We need to have a game that can foster the women of today
whilst nourishing and nurturing and fostering the women of tomorrow.
If we can get that in place, then
I think it will be the men's game looking at the women's game, saying,
"We should be doing this".
[Sue] So the plan is, 2025
to fill Twickenham for the women's World Cup final.
It's an amazing notion, to feel that by 2025,
that this place could be full.
Being able to sell out stadiums like this,
domestically and on an international stage.
I think once we can get to that level, then hopefully they get the investment
which has been long overdue.
["God Save The Queen" playing]
[crowd chattering]
[cheering]
[commentator] Standing on the shoulders of giants that have come before them,
two teams of incredible women.
Harrison out to Scarratt who's got Kildunne at wide...
And Ellie Kildunne scores in the opening two minutes for England!
What a start for the Red Roses!
[cheering]
[commentator] Pressure building here, and Marlie Packer powers over!
England looking dominant in the battle!
[indistinct chatter]
I don't know, I'm a bit nervous.
[commentator] New Zealand is on the short side, they've got numbers,
and Krystal Murray scores in the corner!
The Black Ferns coming back strong!
It might sit up with Stacey Fluhler, just short,
but Leti-l'iga is there to finish it!
New Zealand go back in front!
[dramatic epic music]
[whistle blowing]
[commentator] From the depths of despair, the World Cup winners again!
New Zealand are the champions!
[mild applause]
[Sue] It wasn't the fairy tale ending we were all hoping for
for the Red Roses.
But, on reflection, there were so many positives to take away.
Only a few years ago, you wouldn't have believed
that hundreds of people would wake up at 6 o'clock in the morning on a Saturday
to come together in a pub to watch women's sport.
And then another two million were watching at home over their breakfasts.
To see the pub full of such a wide range of men, women, and children,
gives me great hope for the future of women's sport.
[emotional epic music]
Throughout this incredible year, I've seen the enormous potential
of women's sport to drive positive change.
I've also seen that women's sport doesn't need to replicate
what men sport has done to be successful.
[Molly] If women get equality in sport, I think that is a really powerful place
to then begin to have equality more widely in society.
People care so deeply about sport,
that power to care about it is the really important part about it,
and if people really care about women's sport,
the same way they care about men's sport,
and give it the same respect they give men's sport,
that respect would hopefully translate a bit more widely.
If they're seeing them as equals playfield,
they see them as whole human beings.
I'm filled with hope seeing the next generation of young women
so determined to create positive change in gender equality.
[Molly] I think when you humanize people on the playing field,
you then humanize them in society as well.
And a really foundational and important part
of fighting for equality is recognizing that these people
are as deserving of quality and respect.
As you, because they are equal to you.
[Tanni] In the next five years, we are going to see the biggest change
in women's sport, that we've probably seen in the last 30.
And that's the thing that keeps me going,
that's the thing that makes me really excited.
Because we can almost see the light at the end of the tunnel.
["Take Me Away" by Dj Brown Meister playing]
[laughter]
It's about what is an ally, what is a man ally?
You're playing all over!
Jesus Christ, we just had to do this outside Twickenham.
Why are we not in a nice quiet room?
[Sue coughing]
I was holding that!
The pain gives you parity and it gives you power.
Ooh, that was quite good. That's a good slogan!
I feel so much more posi- [babbles]
-[Sue] Oh, my God. -[Ali] Should we do it again?
Sue already had her hand in the till three times.
-[woman] And you've got a TV show. -[Sue laughs]
Ready to watch England, New Zealand-- No, that's complete... [bleep]
[laughter]