1 00:00:07,517 --> 00:00:12,172 Today, Michael and Natalia get back together to have a chat. 2 00:00:12,275 --> 00:00:13,931 This is round two. 3 00:00:15,758 --> 00:00:17,620 Michael's lawyer, Terrance Kinnard, 4 00:00:17,724 --> 00:00:22,448 and Natalia's father, Antwon Mans, cannot be there. 5 00:00:22,551 --> 00:00:25,620 So, the two who were arguing the month earlier, 6 00:00:25,724 --> 00:00:29,655 they're gone, and now it is just Natalia and Michael. 7 00:00:32,551 --> 00:00:35,344 [Natalia] I do want to hear Michael out, 8 00:00:35,448 --> 00:00:38,413 but, like, I'm kind of expecting the unexpected here. 9 00:00:40,241 --> 00:00:42,793 I think I'm just really nervous about what he says 10 00:00:42,896 --> 00:00:44,310 and how it will affect me. 11 00:00:45,896 --> 00:00:47,103 I have a lot of questions 12 00:00:47,206 --> 00:00:49,827 and all I'm asking is that just... just answer them. 13 00:00:51,448 --> 00:00:52,827 So, I'm just... 14 00:00:54,724 --> 00:00:58,655 [exhales] I'm... legit, like, nervous right now. 15 00:00:59,172 --> 00:01:00,793 [sniffs and groans] 16 00:01:02,517 --> 00:01:05,931 [Beth] Michael really wants some resolution here. 17 00:01:06,034 --> 00:01:08,758 He wants some peace of mind. He needs to put this to rest. 18 00:01:09,655 --> 00:01:11,034 [Michael] Meeting Natalia, 19 00:01:11,137 --> 00:01:12,310 I'm looking for all these different pieces 20 00:01:12,413 --> 00:01:15,068 of... of warning signs, 21 00:01:15,172 --> 00:01:17,000 like an early warning system, right? 22 00:01:17,103 --> 00:01:18,482 You know, for people like my mother 23 00:01:18,586 --> 00:01:20,033 who grew up in the '50s and '60s 24 00:01:20,137 --> 00:01:24,551 and they had to deal with things like nuclear bomb sirens, 25 00:01:24,655 --> 00:01:28,896 they're waiting for any sound to tell you something's falling. 26 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:30,586 If I'm talking to Natalia, 27 00:01:30,689 --> 00:01:33,241 and I hear... [whistles to mimic something falling] 28 00:01:33,827 --> 00:01:34,862 Is that the wind? 29 00:01:34,965 --> 00:01:36,655 [whistles to mimic something falling] 30 00:01:36,758 --> 00:01:38,586 Ha, it's not falling. 31 00:01:38,689 --> 00:01:42,723 I am on edge and on nerve. 32 00:01:42,827 --> 00:01:45,965 [Beth] Then we have Natalia, who really needs some answers. 33 00:01:46,068 --> 00:01:48,378 She was very unfulfilled after the trial 34 00:01:48,482 --> 00:01:50,965 and she's gonna ask some hard questions of Michael 35 00:01:51,068 --> 00:01:53,517 and she needs to know 36 00:01:53,620 --> 00:01:56,310 why she was treated the way she was. 37 00:01:56,413 --> 00:01:59,241 [Natalia] There's a lot of stuff that I want to ask Michael. 38 00:01:59,344 --> 00:02:01,241 Why did they adopt me in the first place? 39 00:02:01,344 --> 00:02:02,793 What made them change their mind? 40 00:02:07,758 --> 00:02:11,931 Why didn't he step in when I was fighting with Kristine? 41 00:02:12,034 --> 00:02:14,241 Like, why didn't Michael defend me? 42 00:02:14,344 --> 00:02:17,551 Why didn't Michael even just take me out of there? 43 00:02:17,655 --> 00:02:20,724 [Beth] Of course Natalia wants answers, but... 44 00:02:20,827 --> 00:02:23,586 she's running a risk here, because Michael has triggers. 45 00:02:23,689 --> 00:02:26,931 I tried, I tried, I tried! 46 00:02:27,034 --> 00:02:28,241 -[Antwon] You know, I wanted to talk with you. -[Michael] No! 47 00:02:28,344 --> 00:02:29,206 Let me-- 48 00:02:29,310 --> 00:02:30,931 -Let's-- -Leave me alone! 49 00:02:31,034 --> 00:02:34,206 [Beth] Is she running the risk that he's gonna get up and walk out again? 50 00:02:34,310 --> 00:02:37,448 But you have to fight to get to the truth. 51 00:02:37,551 --> 00:02:41,827 [Antwon] I'm hopeful that something is gonna really uncover the truth 52 00:02:41,930 --> 00:02:45,551 and that we're one step closer to getting justice done. 53 00:02:45,655 --> 00:02:48,379 [Terrance] I don't view Natalia as a devil, 54 00:02:48,482 --> 00:02:50,137 but I also don't view her as an angel. 55 00:02:51,137 --> 00:02:52,448 There's something sinister about her. 56 00:02:53,344 --> 00:02:55,000 Everywhere Natalia has been, 57 00:02:56,034 --> 00:02:57,551 drama follows. 58 00:02:57,655 --> 00:03:00,103 Everywhere Natalia has been, 59 00:03:00,206 --> 00:03:02,655 families have been in upheaval. 60 00:03:02,758 --> 00:03:06,206 My opinion, Natalia is a very damaged person, 61 00:03:06,896 --> 00:03:08,482 who will hurt others 62 00:03:08,586 --> 00:03:12,000 before the proverbial "they hurt me." 63 00:03:12,103 --> 00:03:15,827 [Beth] This is an opportunity for Natalia that she's never had, 64 00:03:15,931 --> 00:03:20,620 to sit down as an adult and ask questions of Michael 65 00:03:20,724 --> 00:03:23,517 and she gets to try to hold him accountable 66 00:03:23,620 --> 00:03:26,689 for what happened to her years ago. 67 00:03:26,793 --> 00:03:30,793 [Natalia] Michael, whatever you got to say, go ahead and say it. 68 00:03:30,896 --> 00:03:33,827 I'm just praying that it's actually the truth. 69 00:03:33,930 --> 00:03:35,172 [Beth] Given what happened the first time 70 00:03:35,275 --> 00:03:38,103 Michael and Natalia got together and he stormed out, 71 00:03:38,206 --> 00:03:39,758 anything could happen this time. 72 00:03:41,310 --> 00:03:42,275 [car approaching] 73 00:03:44,067 --> 00:03:46,034 [pop song playing on car radio] 74 00:03:51,067 --> 00:03:51,896 [music stops] 75 00:04:19,172 --> 00:04:20,000 Hi. 76 00:04:25,586 --> 00:04:26,482 Hi. 77 00:04:29,965 --> 00:04:31,103 Ah! 78 00:04:34,206 --> 00:04:36,172 [sighing] Oy vey. So, where were we? 79 00:04:37,344 --> 00:04:39,310 [theme music playing] 80 00:04:48,862 --> 00:04:49,758 [Michael] Where do you want to start? 81 00:04:51,724 --> 00:04:54,448 We could start from where you left off. 82 00:04:54,551 --> 00:04:59,620 I believe the question we were on... was why didn't I leave Kristine. 83 00:05:00,517 --> 00:05:02,068 It's difficult to understand. 84 00:05:02,758 --> 00:05:03,586 But, after... 85 00:05:05,034 --> 00:05:06,827 15 plus years of... 86 00:05:09,103 --> 00:05:14,000 being put down, and degraded, and controlled, and threatened, 87 00:05:16,413 --> 00:05:19,068 I didn't have any strength at all to stand up to her. 88 00:05:20,103 --> 00:05:21,413 I... I wish I did. 89 00:05:21,931 --> 00:05:23,000 Wish I did. 90 00:05:24,034 --> 00:05:24,862 I didn't. 91 00:05:26,068 --> 00:05:28,827 -You ever seen the movie Monsters, Inc.? -Yes. 92 00:05:28,931 --> 00:05:31,310 You know, the same monster goes through bunches of doors and... 93 00:05:31,413 --> 00:05:32,448 -Yeah. -...all these kids around the world 94 00:05:32,551 --> 00:05:33,724 have the same monster, but they don't know it? 95 00:05:33,827 --> 00:05:34,620 Mmm-hmm. 96 00:05:34,724 --> 00:05:35,862 We had the same monster 97 00:05:37,551 --> 00:05:38,344 and we didn't know it. 98 00:05:39,172 --> 00:05:41,379 For... years. 99 00:05:44,689 --> 00:05:45,724 [Michael sighing] 100 00:05:50,758 --> 00:05:52,655 -Everybody that knows me... -[inhales deeply] 101 00:05:53,724 --> 00:05:56,344 we... don't call her by "Kristine." 102 00:05:56,448 --> 00:05:57,689 Matter of fact, I hate the word. 103 00:05:57,793 --> 00:05:59,896 I don't like the word. I don't like hearing the word. 104 00:06:00,965 --> 00:06:02,620 Um... her name is "Evil." 105 00:06:03,862 --> 00:06:05,000 Um, every now and then I'll call her 106 00:06:05,103 --> 00:06:06,551 -"The Wicked Witch of the South," but-- -[snorts] 107 00:06:07,275 --> 00:06:08,241 Sorry. 108 00:06:08,344 --> 00:06:10,344 No, it's okay, a little levity is all right. 109 00:06:10,448 --> 00:06:12,655 But... she's earned it. 110 00:06:15,724 --> 00:06:17,965 [both sighing] 111 00:06:18,068 --> 00:06:18,931 [Michael] We had the same monster 112 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:20,896 and we didn't know it. 113 00:06:21,620 --> 00:06:23,931 For... years. 114 00:06:24,827 --> 00:06:27,275 From the second interview Michael gave us, 115 00:06:27,379 --> 00:06:31,551 he was blaming Kristine for a lot of the dysfunction in the household. 116 00:06:31,655 --> 00:06:34,241 Kristine was the purveyor of the word "abuse." 117 00:06:34,344 --> 00:06:35,862 Controlling, manipulating, brainwashing. 118 00:06:35,965 --> 00:06:38,896 Her nickname is "Evil" and she's earned every letter. 119 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,724 And he's continuing to do that in this conversation. 120 00:06:41,827 --> 00:06:44,172 And Natalia's bonding with him a little bit, 121 00:06:44,275 --> 00:06:46,000 you know, they're having their little trauma bonding, 122 00:06:46,103 --> 00:06:48,379 that they were both abused by Kristine 123 00:06:48,482 --> 00:06:51,862 in different ways, but they were both victims of Kristine. 124 00:06:51,965 --> 00:06:53,586 So, you can... you can see that, 125 00:06:53,689 --> 00:06:56,655 you can see her warming up a little bit to him. 126 00:07:00,448 --> 00:07:03,000 What do you know that Kristine did to me? 127 00:07:03,517 --> 00:07:04,620 [Michael sighs] 128 00:07:05,862 --> 00:07:07,620 I know some things. 129 00:07:08,551 --> 00:07:10,034 Other things I just learned. 130 00:07:11,689 --> 00:07:13,655 And then this is gonna sound silly... 131 00:07:17,896 --> 00:07:19,000 I'm afraid of what I don't know. 132 00:07:21,793 --> 00:07:23,448 Like... [sighing] 133 00:07:24,551 --> 00:07:25,724 I know a little. 134 00:07:26,517 --> 00:07:27,482 I don't know a lot. 135 00:07:28,448 --> 00:07:29,310 Um... 136 00:07:30,379 --> 00:07:32,103 -What do you know? -[exhales] 137 00:07:33,034 --> 00:07:34,241 It's a very long answer. 138 00:07:34,344 --> 00:07:36,862 -I mean, that could... that could take us a week. -Just... 139 00:07:36,965 --> 00:07:38,241 -[Michael sighs] -...the highlights. 140 00:07:38,344 --> 00:07:39,137 [laughs humorlessly] 141 00:07:40,896 --> 00:07:42,068 [sighs] 142 00:07:42,172 --> 00:07:43,034 Golly, I just... 143 00:07:52,068 --> 00:07:52,896 Um... 144 00:07:56,206 --> 00:08:00,275 Michael is being very careful, whether he's worried about a court of law, 145 00:08:00,758 --> 00:08:02,172 civil or criminal, 146 00:08:02,275 --> 00:08:07,551 or... just, you know, the court of public opinion, to use a cliche. 147 00:08:07,655 --> 00:08:10,379 It just seems like he's been advised 148 00:08:10,482 --> 00:08:13,137 by his attorney to steer clear, 149 00:08:13,241 --> 00:08:16,172 or not admit any kind of liability, 150 00:08:16,275 --> 00:08:17,965 or incriminate you in any way. 151 00:08:19,103 --> 00:08:23,034 I'm so afraid of the things I don't know about. 152 00:08:23,137 --> 00:08:24,931 And I don't wanna know the things I don't know about. [voice breaking] 153 00:08:25,793 --> 00:08:27,206 Because I know they're all terrible. 154 00:08:28,931 --> 00:08:31,551 And I'd rather just not know 155 00:08:31,655 --> 00:08:33,344 that there's such horrible things in the world. 156 00:08:34,136 --> 00:08:34,965 [sniffs] 157 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,724 But life doesn't give us those opportunities. 158 00:08:39,551 --> 00:08:41,758 [exhales] The only chance 159 00:08:42,413 --> 00:08:44,241 I have... 160 00:08:44,344 --> 00:08:48,172 at an okay future, and maybe you've got a little of this in there too, 161 00:08:50,586 --> 00:08:51,517 if all of us... 162 00:08:52,034 --> 00:08:53,379 if every... 163 00:08:54,448 --> 00:08:55,586 if everyone... 164 00:08:56,793 --> 00:08:58,931 just stands up and says, 165 00:09:01,655 --> 00:09:03,827 "This is what happens, what she did." 166 00:09:03,931 --> 00:09:05,137 If we do it all at the same time, 167 00:09:07,965 --> 00:09:10,413 she can't scream and lie her way out of it. 168 00:09:12,827 --> 00:09:14,482 [Beth] He's continuing to deflect. 169 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,310 You gotta wonder, 170 00:09:16,413 --> 00:09:18,896 'cause his lawyers were always present at all the interviews, 171 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,724 including that first sit-down with Natalia that lasted only minutes. 172 00:09:22,827 --> 00:09:25,517 His lawyer, Terrance, is smart. 173 00:09:25,620 --> 00:09:27,448 He may have advised Michael 174 00:09:27,551 --> 00:09:29,655 how to pivot away from an answer and... 175 00:09:30,517 --> 00:09:32,931 you know, deflect it to Kristine. 176 00:09:33,034 --> 00:09:34,344 -[Terrance] You got this. -[Michael] I know. 177 00:09:34,448 --> 00:09:36,827 [Beth] It's a brilliant deflection. 178 00:09:36,931 --> 00:09:38,724 But that's not being evasive. 179 00:09:38,827 --> 00:09:41,586 My experience with Michael, 180 00:09:41,689 --> 00:09:46,275 I absolutely think he suffers from PTSD as a result of his marriage. 181 00:09:47,379 --> 00:09:51,172 I think he still has a lot of mental trauma 182 00:09:51,275 --> 00:09:53,206 as a result of the loss of his marriage. 183 00:09:53,310 --> 00:09:56,758 And I know he believes that Kristine is the reason for that. 184 00:09:57,931 --> 00:10:01,103 She has screamed and screamed and screamed 185 00:10:01,206 --> 00:10:05,241 horrific, horrific, horrific lies. 186 00:10:05,344 --> 00:10:07,896 [Natalia sighs] I'm just like... 187 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,206 I think he's just trying to get the criticism of the public off of him 188 00:10:12,310 --> 00:10:15,206 and trying to use the sympathy to be like, 189 00:10:15,310 --> 00:10:18,586 "I was victimized, too," like, "Please don't come after me." 190 00:10:18,689 --> 00:10:20,448 Like, "I was a victim too in this." 191 00:10:21,137 --> 00:10:22,310 But the thing is, for me, 192 00:10:23,172 --> 00:10:24,758 yes, you were a victim, 193 00:10:25,827 --> 00:10:28,310 but you also... 194 00:10:29,482 --> 00:10:31,034 was the perpetrator. 195 00:10:31,137 --> 00:10:32,965 You were an accomplice of it all, too. 196 00:10:36,517 --> 00:10:38,413 If Kristine was this so-called monster, 197 00:10:39,620 --> 00:10:40,620 he could have fought her. 198 00:10:41,413 --> 00:10:42,241 I couldn't. 199 00:10:46,206 --> 00:10:47,689 What was the conversation 200 00:10:49,034 --> 00:10:50,827 about dropping me off in the apartment? 201 00:10:52,034 --> 00:10:53,827 What was that conversation? 202 00:10:54,620 --> 00:10:56,793 Um, Westfield or Lafayette? 203 00:10:57,689 --> 00:10:58,965 We'll start with Westfield. 204 00:10:59,965 --> 00:11:01,275 Um... 205 00:11:01,379 --> 00:11:02,758 Again, conversation... 206 00:11:03,586 --> 00:11:05,344 Just what happened. 207 00:11:05,448 --> 00:11:07,724 You have to understand there's not a lot of conversation, there's a lot of dictating. 208 00:11:08,931 --> 00:11:11,206 Did you know that she was... [sniffs] 209 00:11:11,862 --> 00:11:12,827 getting me an ID? 210 00:11:13,689 --> 00:11:14,689 Yes, I did. 211 00:11:15,241 --> 00:11:16,655 At that point of time, 212 00:11:16,758 --> 00:11:19,689 -legally your age had been altered by the state. -[breathing shakily] 213 00:11:19,793 --> 00:11:22,413 You, like anybody else, need to have an ID. 214 00:11:23,724 --> 00:11:25,862 Okay. Let's step back and... 215 00:11:26,896 --> 00:11:29,068 What... Whose idea was it? 216 00:11:29,827 --> 00:11:30,655 Was what? 217 00:11:33,551 --> 00:11:34,758 With the age change. 218 00:11:43,517 --> 00:11:46,689 I did tell all these guys we're not getting into that subject. 219 00:11:49,586 --> 00:11:50,655 Why can't you say it? 220 00:11:51,931 --> 00:11:53,344 Did you guys not... 221 00:11:53,448 --> 00:11:55,172 -[man 1] Yes. -...cover these parameters? 222 00:11:55,275 --> 00:11:56,965 -[man 1] I thought... -[Michael] I... I... You know me. 223 00:11:57,068 --> 00:11:59,793 [sighing] 224 00:11:59,896 --> 00:12:02,068 -Not a... not a good idea. -[man 1] I understand. I understand. 225 00:12:02,172 --> 00:12:03,896 -I need to step outside for a minute. -Come outside. 226 00:12:11,896 --> 00:12:14,034 [man 2] It's not like you guys are fighting. 227 00:12:15,068 --> 00:12:16,344 -And I know that... -[Michael] Hey. 228 00:12:18,379 --> 00:12:20,137 -Hi. -[Natalia whispering] Okay. 229 00:12:23,344 --> 00:12:26,655 Michael doesn't want to talk about changing my age. 230 00:12:26,758 --> 00:12:29,586 Michael just left. He was running away again. 231 00:12:29,689 --> 00:12:30,517 You don't care. 232 00:12:30,620 --> 00:12:32,620 Like, that's what I feel like. 233 00:12:32,724 --> 00:12:35,413 They didn't care that they... 234 00:12:35,517 --> 00:12:39,448 left a little girl in an apartment at eight years old, 235 00:12:39,551 --> 00:12:42,344 changed her whole age from 8 to 22. 236 00:12:42,448 --> 00:12:44,551 That's, like, a 15-year stretch. 237 00:12:46,586 --> 00:12:48,862 Like, just admit it. 238 00:12:50,034 --> 00:12:52,000 A lot of things would have been different, 239 00:12:52,103 --> 00:12:56,413 if they would have... maybe just sent me back. 240 00:12:56,517 --> 00:12:59,137 There were some ground rules going into this, 241 00:12:59,241 --> 00:13:01,000 and one of them was that 242 00:13:01,103 --> 00:13:03,689 the re-aging is off-topic. 243 00:13:03,793 --> 00:13:06,724 That is off the table, not to be discussed. 244 00:13:06,827 --> 00:13:08,103 I just... I wanna stay away from things 245 00:13:08,206 --> 00:13:10,931 that might be too emotionally... touchy, that's all. 246 00:13:11,034 --> 00:13:14,344 Okay. We can step away from that, 'cause I got a lot of questions. 247 00:13:14,448 --> 00:13:15,275 Okay. 248 00:13:19,413 --> 00:13:21,482 Why not just put me up for adoption again? 249 00:13:24,793 --> 00:13:28,724 Unfortunately, the real answer for that lies in Evil's head. 250 00:13:28,827 --> 00:13:31,620 I can make a couple assumptions that are pretty good ones. 251 00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:33,310 You're in that time 252 00:13:33,965 --> 00:13:35,482 after Florida 253 00:13:35,586 --> 00:13:40,241 and before the Ciccones released you, that six-month period, 254 00:13:40,344 --> 00:13:41,689 where things just... 255 00:13:41,793 --> 00:13:42,965 Something was wrong. 256 00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:45,034 Something was off. 257 00:13:45,586 --> 00:13:46,620 During that time, 258 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,827 I had... 259 00:13:50,758 --> 00:13:53,206 the conversation with the monster 260 00:13:53,310 --> 00:13:56,689 about, "Look. Things aren't working right. 261 00:13:56,793 --> 00:13:58,862 Maybe this is no harm, no foul. 262 00:13:58,965 --> 00:14:01,827 We don't have to do anything, 'cause you legally were still theirs. 263 00:14:03,172 --> 00:14:08,586 Maybe we just walk away from this and... cool our jets." 264 00:14:08,689 --> 00:14:12,517 And that was met with a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very stern "No." 265 00:14:13,310 --> 00:14:14,344 Why? 266 00:14:16,068 --> 00:14:17,034 The deeper "why" 267 00:14:19,379 --> 00:14:21,379 and this is all assumption and allegedly, 268 00:14:21,482 --> 00:14:23,448 so make sure you guys are putting the word "allegedly" over this, 269 00:14:23,551 --> 00:14:25,034 like, in flashing letters, right? 270 00:14:26,827 --> 00:14:30,206 She saw... the adoption, 271 00:14:30,310 --> 00:14:32,275 especially the adoption of somebody with special needs, 272 00:14:33,344 --> 00:14:34,172 as... 273 00:14:34,965 --> 00:14:36,689 a societal thing. 274 00:14:38,241 --> 00:14:40,448 The one thing we can always count on, 275 00:14:40,551 --> 00:14:44,413 is Evil sure does love her some attention. 276 00:14:44,517 --> 00:14:47,482 And some cameras, and some eyes on her, 277 00:14:47,586 --> 00:14:49,034 and people worshipping her. 278 00:14:49,137 --> 00:14:53,275 She wrote out a full one-page piece of paper once 279 00:14:53,379 --> 00:14:56,551 explaining to me why she qualifies for sainthood, 280 00:14:56,655 --> 00:14:59,655 based on the two miracles she's performed. 281 00:14:59,758 --> 00:15:02,000 [grunts] That's who we're dealing with. 282 00:15:02,103 --> 00:15:04,931 So, when you're dealing with that level of narcissist, 283 00:15:05,551 --> 00:15:07,068 it's vaguely possible 284 00:15:07,793 --> 00:15:09,862 that she saw the adoption 285 00:15:09,965 --> 00:15:13,724 as a [in female voice] "Aren't I a great person, everyone? 286 00:15:13,827 --> 00:15:15,862 Look at me. Hey, neighbors! Look. 287 00:15:15,965 --> 00:15:20,344 I'm... I'm so wonderful. I'm so wonderful. I'm so charitable." 288 00:15:20,448 --> 00:15:23,000 She compared herself to Oprah regularly. 289 00:15:23,103 --> 00:15:25,482 She was gonna be the Oprah for autistic kids. 290 00:15:25,586 --> 00:15:26,862 I've heard this so many times. 291 00:15:27,586 --> 00:15:29,482 So, my assumption is, 292 00:15:29,586 --> 00:15:34,137 the reason that she wouldn't undo where we were, 293 00:15:34,241 --> 00:15:36,620 all those people that were, "Hey, look at me. Look at me. Look at me. 294 00:15:36,724 --> 00:15:38,448 Aren't I great? Aren't I great? Aren't I great? 295 00:15:38,551 --> 00:15:40,551 Wait, what do you mean where's my newly adopted daughter? 296 00:15:40,655 --> 00:15:42,517 Oh, hell, I've got to explain this." 297 00:15:45,310 --> 00:15:47,551 Did she tell you why she took me out of school? 298 00:15:48,724 --> 00:15:51,172 Um... she did. 299 00:15:51,275 --> 00:15:55,172 I was told... that you were a danger to the other students, 300 00:15:55,275 --> 00:15:58,137 that you were ramming your wheelchair into them on purpose, 301 00:15:58,241 --> 00:16:00,827 that you had taken your parking brake off the wheelchair and hid it, 302 00:16:00,931 --> 00:16:02,931 blah, blah... We don't need to get into this, this is... 303 00:16:03,034 --> 00:16:04,586 This is rough stuff. 304 00:16:04,689 --> 00:16:07,172 She told me that she was protecting other first grade children 305 00:16:07,275 --> 00:16:09,379 by removing you from the class. 306 00:16:09,482 --> 00:16:11,620 What I remember is Kristine telling me that 307 00:16:13,034 --> 00:16:16,068 she was getting a phone call at 9 o'clock every single day. 308 00:16:16,172 --> 00:16:19,413 I couldn't say whether she was or wasn't getting a phone call every day. 309 00:16:20,034 --> 00:16:21,241 From my end of things, 310 00:16:21,344 --> 00:16:22,965 she never told me she was getting a phone call every day. 311 00:16:25,758 --> 00:16:27,896 According to Kristine, 312 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,793 she was getting complaints from the school 313 00:16:29,896 --> 00:16:33,344 that Natalia was intentionally ramming her wheelchair into the students. 314 00:16:40,551 --> 00:16:44,310 Yes, the teacher stated that Natalia had hit children with the wheelchair. 315 00:16:50,034 --> 00:16:52,482 He behavior was nothing but extraordinary. 316 00:16:54,034 --> 00:16:56,034 [detective] Did she ever cause you any problems? 317 00:16:56,137 --> 00:16:58,344 [principal] Oh, my gosh, no. She was a delight. 318 00:16:58,448 --> 00:17:02,000 My teacher said I... that she never had to call Kristine. 319 00:17:03,413 --> 00:17:06,792 That I didn't do what Kristine was claiming that I did. Nothing. 320 00:17:06,896 --> 00:17:11,241 Nobody did any of the things she accused everyone of doing. 321 00:17:17,689 --> 00:17:20,827 Yes. Natalia stated, "I want to hurt the other kids." 322 00:17:24,448 --> 00:17:25,241 [Michael] Yes. 323 00:17:30,551 --> 00:17:31,379 "I don't like them." 324 00:17:34,827 --> 00:17:35,655 [Terrance] Listen. 325 00:17:37,034 --> 00:17:39,793 Michael and Kristine took Natalia out of school 326 00:17:39,896 --> 00:17:43,068 simply because she did not belong there. 327 00:17:43,172 --> 00:17:45,655 Even when she's not with the Barnetts, 328 00:17:46,551 --> 00:17:48,000 we have to remember 329 00:17:48,103 --> 00:17:51,310 when Natalia lived with the Ciccones she was home-schooled. 330 00:17:52,689 --> 00:17:55,000 So, at every stop that Natalia's been, 331 00:17:55,103 --> 00:17:58,000 there are all these reports about her abhorrent behavior. 332 00:17:58,103 --> 00:18:01,103 The story Natalia wants to push forward now is, 333 00:18:01,206 --> 00:18:04,206 "I was a victim and I was victimized by the Barnetts." 334 00:18:07,413 --> 00:18:10,896 [Cynthia] Natalia is a broken young lady 335 00:18:12,931 --> 00:18:15,586 that's being fixed every day, 336 00:18:15,689 --> 00:18:19,310 but Natalia is the sweetest, the happiest little girl 337 00:18:19,413 --> 00:18:21,379 that I've ever met in my life. 338 00:18:21,482 --> 00:18:25,034 Like, for everything she's been through I just can't say it enough 339 00:18:25,137 --> 00:18:29,586 how... bright she is, how smart she is, 340 00:18:29,689 --> 00:18:32,793 how happy she is, how thankful she is, 341 00:18:32,896 --> 00:18:35,413 how much she loves God. 342 00:18:40,586 --> 00:18:43,896 I would say she has been, uh... 343 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,241 violent in a typical way, like most kids do. 344 00:18:47,344 --> 00:18:50,689 You know, most kids fight, most kids argue. 345 00:18:50,793 --> 00:18:53,551 But nothing unusual to where there was just, 346 00:18:54,517 --> 00:18:58,310 um, crazy unrest in that sort of way. 347 00:18:58,413 --> 00:19:01,689 There's nothing dangerous about Natalia at all. 348 00:19:01,793 --> 00:19:03,000 Absolutely not. 349 00:19:06,344 --> 00:19:10,482 [Natalia] And then, here's the big butthead of everybody's lives. 350 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,310 See, there she goes, being a butthead, not even listening. 351 00:19:16,344 --> 00:19:19,413 Okay, there's something I don't wanna say, 352 00:19:19,517 --> 00:19:21,931 'cause I think it will... it might make her feel bad 353 00:19:22,034 --> 00:19:25,862 and she's already felt bad about it, but... and then, it's like... 354 00:19:26,896 --> 00:19:29,827 Okay, I will only say it if you don't tell her. 355 00:19:32,655 --> 00:19:35,000 [murmuring] She beat me when I was a baby. 356 00:19:36,206 --> 00:19:38,965 But the thing is, she didn't know any better. 357 00:19:39,068 --> 00:19:42,896 I mean, she did, but she said it was, like, when she was 10. 358 00:19:45,137 --> 00:19:45,965 And... 359 00:19:46,827 --> 00:19:48,344 she didn't really know. 360 00:19:55,655 --> 00:19:57,310 Bye-bye! 361 00:20:00,724 --> 00:20:02,275 [Terrance] The Mans took her to the hospital. 362 00:20:02,896 --> 00:20:04,344 St. Franciscan. 363 00:20:04,448 --> 00:20:08,103 And, you know, the report was, she had harmed one of their children. 364 00:20:08,206 --> 00:20:11,517 And that she had been disruptive in the house, she had been violent. 365 00:20:12,379 --> 00:20:14,137 And they wanted to leave her there 366 00:20:14,241 --> 00:20:16,758 and she wasn't welcome back in their home. 367 00:20:16,862 --> 00:20:18,931 And there was also additional parts of that report 368 00:20:19,034 --> 00:20:22,000 where Natalia wanted to take a taxi to go back to the Mans 369 00:20:22,103 --> 00:20:24,482 and, allegedly, when the hospital reaches out to the Mans, 370 00:20:24,586 --> 00:20:26,896 they're told, "She can't come back. She's not welcome. 371 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,241 We don't want her calling us anymore." 372 00:20:29,344 --> 00:20:32,758 These reports were written by medical staff. 373 00:20:32,862 --> 00:20:38,551 Psychologists, psychiatrists, MDs, counselors, nursing staff. 374 00:20:38,655 --> 00:20:40,413 [intense music playing] 375 00:20:40,517 --> 00:20:42,137 When you look at all the families 376 00:20:42,241 --> 00:20:44,965 that she's been connected to that we are aware of, 377 00:20:45,068 --> 00:20:48,103 From the Ciccones, to the Barnetts, to the Mans. 378 00:20:48,206 --> 00:20:51,206 All of these families are reporting similar instances 379 00:20:51,310 --> 00:20:54,413 where Natalias has inflicted harm on a family member. 380 00:20:54,517 --> 00:20:58,068 Are we all saying that all of these folks are wrong and are liars 381 00:20:58,172 --> 00:21:01,137 and that Natalia is simply this innocent bystander? 382 00:21:01,241 --> 00:21:05,620 She's this innocent wallflower who's just been victimized by all these families? 383 00:21:05,724 --> 00:21:10,000 That defies logic. Where there's smoke, there's fire. 384 00:21:12,827 --> 00:21:17,862 I never even spoke with the hospital people because she was an adult. 385 00:21:17,965 --> 00:21:21,344 So they would not let me in with her. 386 00:21:21,448 --> 00:21:25,172 I feel like, Kristine definitely must have called the hospital 387 00:21:25,275 --> 00:21:29,172 and told them that this is what happened 388 00:21:29,275 --> 00:21:32,620 and all of these things because those are not my words. 389 00:21:32,724 --> 00:21:35,793 I don't know who drew that up, who wrote that. 390 00:21:35,896 --> 00:21:37,206 Because that was not what's said. 391 00:21:37,310 --> 00:21:39,689 [suspenseful music playing] 392 00:21:39,793 --> 00:21:41,241 Can we go back a little bit? 393 00:21:41,862 --> 00:21:43,551 Go wherever you want. 394 00:21:43,655 --> 00:21:45,862 Do you remember the first time meeting me? 395 00:21:45,965 --> 00:21:47,275 Yep, sure do. 396 00:21:47,793 --> 00:21:49,655 Do you remember 397 00:21:49,758 --> 00:21:52,620 meeting the family I was with before? 398 00:21:52,724 --> 00:21:54,206 Never met them. 399 00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:56,448 They were in the room across the hall from ours. 400 00:21:56,551 --> 00:21:58,517 So we were each in this two little-- 401 00:21:58,620 --> 00:22:01,379 I consider them like, "bedroom-esque thing" but little offices. 402 00:22:01,482 --> 00:22:03,517 There was uh, there was a hallway. 403 00:22:03,620 --> 00:22:05,206 We got there before you did. 404 00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:10,103 So we, Kristine, I, the boys, are in this room. 405 00:22:10,206 --> 00:22:12,206 We can hear the front door open. 406 00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:15,275 We can hear voices, we hear people walking down the hall. 407 00:22:15,379 --> 00:22:17,586 And we hear people go into that room, and we hear a voice 408 00:22:17,689 --> 00:22:19,586 saying, "Well, just stay there until you're ready." 409 00:22:19,689 --> 00:22:22,344 The entire time, Jacob, Wesley, Ethan, and I, 410 00:22:22,448 --> 00:22:23,931 are at this door 411 00:22:24,034 --> 00:22:26,724 with our ears pressed up against it, like this, 412 00:22:26,827 --> 00:22:29,241 trying to hear everything we can. 413 00:22:29,344 --> 00:22:32,103 "That's your new sister. That's our new daughter." What does she sound like? 414 00:22:32,206 --> 00:22:34,275 "Hey, we heard her voice!" 415 00:22:34,379 --> 00:22:38,379 "What... What did she do?" "Hey, I think she said hi!" I just... 416 00:22:38,482 --> 00:22:41,620 We're doing that. Ethan goes and gets a glass. 417 00:22:42,655 --> 00:22:44,758 Puts the glass against the wall. 418 00:22:44,862 --> 00:22:46,517 We start looking though the peep hole 419 00:22:46,620 --> 00:22:48,275 to try to see if we can see anything. 420 00:22:49,379 --> 00:22:51,758 The boys spent the night making shirts. 421 00:22:51,862 --> 00:22:54,862 "We love you, Natalia. Welcome home, sister." They were so excited. 422 00:22:56,655 --> 00:22:59,068 I remember everything about the first day. 423 00:23:00,034 --> 00:23:01,827 I remember that day too. 424 00:23:01,931 --> 00:23:05,793 Um, I remember sitting in a chair, 425 00:23:05,896 --> 00:23:08,413 right across from where you guys were. 426 00:23:10,275 --> 00:23:14,344 But I also remembered Diane and Gary coming in the room. 427 00:23:15,068 --> 00:23:17,034 I never met them. 428 00:23:17,137 --> 00:23:19,275 They never came out of the room. They kept us totally separate. 429 00:23:19,379 --> 00:23:21,862 The Adoption by Shepherd Care people told us, 430 00:23:21,965 --> 00:23:24,379 it was a closed adoption and the surrendering family 431 00:23:24,482 --> 00:23:28,241 did not want to share any information with us and did not want to meet us. 432 00:23:28,344 --> 00:23:31,724 We've never met. I have never met Gary or Diane. 433 00:23:33,896 --> 00:23:36,482 Well, I don't know what that's about then. 434 00:23:36,586 --> 00:23:40,034 I didn't know their names until like a month later. 435 00:23:45,379 --> 00:23:46,413 [sighs heavily] Um... 436 00:23:50,896 --> 00:23:53,275 I remember... 437 00:23:53,379 --> 00:23:57,000 Diane and Gary came out and they told me that you guys wanted to see me. 438 00:23:59,551 --> 00:24:02,172 But they never came out of the room and talked to us. They just-- 439 00:24:02,275 --> 00:24:04,034 They came in, dropped you off. 440 00:24:04,137 --> 00:24:06,482 Came back out, talked to other people and... [whistles] gone. 441 00:24:08,448 --> 00:24:11,689 [Beth] Natalia's six. Does she really remember? 442 00:24:11,793 --> 00:24:14,724 It's an event though, that, you know, she's meeting "new parents" 443 00:24:14,827 --> 00:24:16,172 that she really might remember. 444 00:24:16,275 --> 00:24:18,310 She's leaving the old, and meeting the new. 445 00:24:20,931 --> 00:24:23,827 But what lends a little credence 446 00:24:23,931 --> 00:24:28,000 to Natalia's version, is that she remembers 447 00:24:28,103 --> 00:24:30,793 running into them or seeing them at Disney World 448 00:24:30,896 --> 00:24:32,517 while they were in Florida. 449 00:24:32,620 --> 00:24:34,379 And saying, "Oh, you know, there's Mommy." 450 00:24:34,482 --> 00:24:35,517 And Kristine saying, "No..." 451 00:24:35,620 --> 00:24:37,034 [both] I'm your mommy now. 452 00:24:38,241 --> 00:24:40,172 That's really important. 453 00:24:40,275 --> 00:24:43,172 Like that is a kind of little fact, 454 00:24:43,275 --> 00:24:45,896 like, why would she make that up? 455 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,241 I mean, that, to me, has a ring of truth. 456 00:24:48,344 --> 00:24:50,172 [somber instrumental music playing] 457 00:24:50,275 --> 00:24:53,413 Michael's adamant that he didn't even know the Ciccones' name 458 00:24:53,517 --> 00:24:56,724 for a month, that this was a closed adoption, but we know 459 00:24:56,827 --> 00:24:59,586 he and Kristine had Natalia's medical records 460 00:24:59,689 --> 00:25:02,586 and the Ciccones' names were in the medical records 461 00:25:02,689 --> 00:25:04,413 from the time they adopted her. 462 00:25:04,517 --> 00:25:06,206 And we know that because the prosecutor told us that. 463 00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:08,379 Jackie Starbuck told us that. 464 00:25:08,482 --> 00:25:12,758 So, I don't know why he insists upon continuing 465 00:25:12,862 --> 00:25:15,000 to say it was a closed adoption. 466 00:25:15,896 --> 00:25:19,862 So, somebody is mistaken or lying. 467 00:25:30,965 --> 00:25:33,896 -I got a question for you. -Yeah, I got lots of answers for you. 468 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,793 You might not like all of them, but I got them. 469 00:25:35,896 --> 00:25:40,827 I mean, look, what you got to say, I'm gonna hear it, okay? 470 00:25:40,931 --> 00:25:42,517 [Michael sighs] 471 00:25:42,620 --> 00:25:43,862 Do you remember putting a lock on my door? 472 00:25:45,068 --> 00:25:46,448 Yes. 473 00:25:46,551 --> 00:25:49,758 The latch. Um, we were actually told to do that by, uh, the doctors. 474 00:25:51,517 --> 00:25:55,068 Do you remember what happened while you were putting the lock on the door? 475 00:25:55,896 --> 00:25:56,758 Nope. 476 00:25:58,482 --> 00:26:03,551 So, you didn't realize that Kristine was hitting me or... 477 00:26:03,655 --> 00:26:05,551 -At that moment? -Hitting me with a belt 478 00:26:05,655 --> 00:26:09,689 and letting the boys hit me and letting Jacob drop me? 479 00:26:11,379 --> 00:26:12,517 You didn't? 480 00:26:15,586 --> 00:26:17,068 -No. -[sobs] 481 00:26:18,896 --> 00:26:21,862 [sighs] Things relating to Jacob... 482 00:26:21,965 --> 00:26:24,689 I didn't learn until two years ago when Jacob came back. 483 00:26:26,862 --> 00:26:29,758 And I just started to learn those things. 484 00:26:31,103 --> 00:26:32,000 He and I have been... 485 00:26:33,620 --> 00:26:36,689 trying to figure out how to mentally come to terms with 486 00:26:38,344 --> 00:26:39,413 things that 487 00:26:40,586 --> 00:26:42,758 she forced them to do. 488 00:26:42,862 --> 00:26:44,862 He is so, so sorry. 489 00:26:46,793 --> 00:26:49,517 He is so sorry. 490 00:26:49,620 --> 00:26:51,344 And I have to keep reminding him 491 00:26:51,448 --> 00:26:54,000 over and over and over when we talk about this. 492 00:26:56,862 --> 00:26:58,172 He was... 493 00:26:58,275 --> 00:27:01,000 A child who was being forced to do it. 494 00:27:02,103 --> 00:27:04,344 And it wasn't him. It... 495 00:27:05,586 --> 00:27:07,482 [Natalia sobbing] 496 00:27:07,586 --> 00:27:10,000 In the last three years, Jacob and I have probably cried together 497 00:27:10,103 --> 00:27:12,137 over a hundred times regarding... 498 00:27:13,551 --> 00:27:16,862 this incident, or that incident, or this incident. 499 00:27:17,862 --> 00:27:19,310 There are... 500 00:27:19,413 --> 00:27:21,931 I wish I could tell you a couple other things, but I'm not allowed 501 00:27:22,034 --> 00:27:23,724 to tell you while on camera and on a microphone. 502 00:27:45,551 --> 00:27:48,758 Some people took issue with the airing of this off-camera conversation 503 00:27:48,862 --> 00:27:50,896 that Michael and Jacob were having, seemingly private 504 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,965 until they realized it's a hot mic. 505 00:27:53,068 --> 00:27:55,758 But it was very revealing. 506 00:27:55,862 --> 00:27:57,724 And it's important to get to the truth. 507 00:28:04,482 --> 00:28:08,379 [Beth] It shows Michael is aware of the statute of limitations. 508 00:28:08,482 --> 00:28:12,000 And this corroborates Natalia 509 00:28:12,103 --> 00:28:14,379 when she says she was beaten. 510 00:28:14,482 --> 00:28:19,379 But what's really revealing about it to me is that, 511 00:28:19,482 --> 00:28:22,482 they chose incidents to talk about. 512 00:28:23,172 --> 00:28:25,103 And left things out. 513 00:28:25,724 --> 00:28:26,758 Michael's in control. 514 00:28:28,793 --> 00:28:30,448 [Michael] There's a lot of cross blinds of 515 00:28:31,620 --> 00:28:32,655 who did 516 00:28:33,310 --> 00:28:35,586 what and when. 517 00:28:35,689 --> 00:28:39,310 Everything that Kristine has ever said or claimed, just assume is a lie. 518 00:28:40,517 --> 00:28:43,965 [Natalia] The way Michael is talking, 519 00:28:44,068 --> 00:28:46,724 is just like last time. 520 00:28:46,827 --> 00:28:49,241 He made it about himself. 521 00:28:49,344 --> 00:28:52,241 And pretty much blaming everything on Kristine. 522 00:28:52,344 --> 00:28:53,931 I'm here to hear Michael out. 523 00:28:54,034 --> 00:28:57,241 But, like, I want Michael to know how I feel about this. 524 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,379 I want everybody to know exactly how this affected me. 525 00:29:02,482 --> 00:29:05,862 I want him to know what he did was completely wrong. 526 00:29:07,206 --> 00:29:08,827 How did you even feel 527 00:29:09,655 --> 00:29:12,413 when Kristine was beating me? 528 00:29:12,517 --> 00:29:14,482 -Or-- -I will tell you specifically how I felt. 529 00:29:15,689 --> 00:29:17,827 One day, I come home from work and... 530 00:29:18,517 --> 00:29:20,103 You know already what... 531 00:29:21,068 --> 00:29:22,551 the air at home was. 532 00:29:23,172 --> 00:29:25,000 And I came in, 533 00:29:25,103 --> 00:29:26,793 you were... Your nose is on the wall in the kitchen. 534 00:29:28,551 --> 00:29:30,655 And Kristine got up, 535 00:29:31,655 --> 00:29:33,275 and she just looked at me, 536 00:29:34,724 --> 00:29:35,862 "Back your wife up!" 537 00:29:36,931 --> 00:29:39,413 And she went, grabbed you off the wall. 538 00:29:39,517 --> 00:29:41,448 She yanked you pretty good. 539 00:29:41,551 --> 00:29:44,344 You're over there and she gets you to here. 540 00:29:46,068 --> 00:29:48,206 "Stay out of my way or you'll never see your sons again." 541 00:29:49,551 --> 00:29:51,517 And she launches you on the ground. 542 00:29:52,344 --> 00:29:54,275 And the usual. 543 00:29:54,379 --> 00:29:56,724 "Who are you? Where have you been?" 544 00:29:57,241 --> 00:29:58,862 And she's wailing. 545 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,862 I'm stunned from what's going on. I'm just... I'm shocked. 546 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,655 I'm frozen in fear. 547 00:30:07,758 --> 00:30:11,965 And I know for a fact, if I do anything, 548 00:30:12,068 --> 00:30:15,068 I never see Wesley, Ethan, or Jacob ever again. 549 00:30:15,172 --> 00:30:18,000 And I hate to put it to you in that fashion, 550 00:30:18,103 --> 00:30:21,793 but I just wanted to have my family all together. 551 00:30:22,551 --> 00:30:24,379 So I start recording it. 552 00:30:24,482 --> 00:30:28,655 And the only thing I can think is, if I could just show her, 553 00:30:28,758 --> 00:30:32,724 "Look at this. This is abhorrent." 554 00:30:32,827 --> 00:30:35,931 I'm just thinking maybe I could just show it to her and she'll see how... 555 00:30:36,034 --> 00:30:38,275 bad she is and she'll stop. 556 00:30:38,379 --> 00:30:41,206 She'll realize she's gone too far and she'll stop. 557 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,275 Except, she's crazy. 558 00:30:44,379 --> 00:30:47,310 And logic's not gonna work. 559 00:30:47,413 --> 00:30:51,586 So, when she's done, she takes you up to your room, 560 00:30:51,689 --> 00:30:55,724 while she's up there, I get my phone and I hit play on it so I could look at it and... 561 00:30:55,827 --> 00:30:56,793 it's just... 562 00:30:58,310 --> 00:31:00,310 disgusting. 563 00:31:00,413 --> 00:31:03,448 Unfortunately, while I'm looking at it, 564 00:31:04,482 --> 00:31:06,034 she showed up right behind me 565 00:31:07,586 --> 00:31:09,862 and if I ever want to see my kids again, 566 00:31:09,965 --> 00:31:13,620 I have to reset my phone right now in front of her and delete everything. 567 00:31:15,241 --> 00:31:18,482 [Natalia] Michael, again, was making up excuses. 568 00:31:18,586 --> 00:31:20,862 That really hurts. 569 00:31:20,965 --> 00:31:24,517 Instead of being a dad, he was a coward. 570 00:31:25,137 --> 00:31:27,344 To me, Michael is guilty. 571 00:31:27,931 --> 00:31:29,896 Because he let it happen. 572 00:31:30,551 --> 00:31:32,620 [intense music playing] 573 00:31:37,206 --> 00:31:38,620 [somber music playing] 574 00:31:42,344 --> 00:31:43,896 Kristine's not my mom. 575 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,275 High five. Up top. There you go. 576 00:31:47,379 --> 00:31:50,965 I stopped calling her my mother the moment that she just started doing everything, 577 00:31:51,068 --> 00:31:53,827 -started saying everything. She was never my mom! -She's evil. 578 00:31:58,241 --> 00:32:00,241 One time, when she was mad, 579 00:32:01,275 --> 00:32:03,379 Kristine put me in a pink dress 580 00:32:03,482 --> 00:32:08,068 and she literally told me to stand still like a gnome. 581 00:32:10,172 --> 00:32:12,862 I think I was actually doing a little bit of schoolwork. 582 00:32:12,965 --> 00:32:16,482 I didn't get a question right or something like that. 583 00:32:16,586 --> 00:32:20,827 And then, she moved the chair into like, the front of the window, like there was like, 584 00:32:20,931 --> 00:32:24,758 big window, that was in the, um, in the dining room. 585 00:32:24,862 --> 00:32:27,793 She literally made me a cone hat, 586 00:32:27,896 --> 00:32:30,724 gave me an apple, put me in a pink dress, 587 00:32:30,827 --> 00:32:34,000 and told me I had to stand still like a gnome. 588 00:32:34,103 --> 00:32:36,103 Just stand there. I can't lean on the back of the chair, 589 00:32:36,206 --> 00:32:38,551 nothing. I just had to stand there like a gnome. 590 00:32:39,482 --> 00:32:41,000 Like, literally, I had to be like this. 591 00:32:41,103 --> 00:32:43,965 Apple was in my hand, just stand right here. 592 00:32:44,068 --> 00:32:48,413 Just like a garden gnome. Like, she literally told me I couldn't move, nothing. 593 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,482 And I was there until Michael got home from work. 594 00:32:52,586 --> 00:32:55,034 Which was, it was starting to get dark. 595 00:32:55,137 --> 00:32:58,931 Neighbors were driving by, nobody stopped and said anything. 596 00:33:01,413 --> 00:33:05,275 [Natalia] Put me in a pink dress and told me I had to stand still like a gnome. 597 00:33:06,137 --> 00:33:08,551 I've read an exchange 598 00:33:08,655 --> 00:33:11,931 that was in the court file part of discovery. 599 00:33:12,034 --> 00:33:14,344 This person close to Kristine, 600 00:33:15,517 --> 00:33:18,551 asks her, "How's the midget?" 601 00:33:18,655 --> 00:33:20,655 And Kristine says, "Still weird." 602 00:33:21,344 --> 00:33:23,413 Think about that. 603 00:33:23,517 --> 00:33:28,172 What does that tell you about Kristine and like, where her head is at? 604 00:33:29,689 --> 00:33:33,896 It's really unbelievable that she had this organization 605 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,241 that was dedicated to 606 00:33:36,344 --> 00:33:40,103 helping raise awareness about disabled people, 607 00:33:40,206 --> 00:33:42,965 who were experiencing physical and verbal abuse 608 00:33:43,068 --> 00:33:46,931 and here she is, I... I read it! She's engaging in this. 609 00:33:47,034 --> 00:33:50,896 In the same conversation, they're talking about little people as gnomes. 610 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:52,620 Keep them away. 611 00:33:52,724 --> 00:33:56,068 Like, what are you talking about? 612 00:33:56,172 --> 00:33:59,724 [Natalia] Did Kristine hate me because of my dwarfism? 613 00:33:59,827 --> 00:34:03,379 That's how crazy it is. Like, you wouldn't think about that. 614 00:34:03,482 --> 00:34:06,310 You would not think, "Oh, I'm gonna dress this person up as a gnome." 615 00:34:06,413 --> 00:34:07,724 What? 616 00:34:19,137 --> 00:34:22,965 [Terrance] I think Natalia had a very rough upbringing. 617 00:34:23,068 --> 00:34:25,103 However, at some level, 618 00:34:25,206 --> 00:34:29,862 Natalia has to be aware and accountable for her own behavior. 619 00:34:29,965 --> 00:34:33,068 When we look at the reports from the Larue Carter Hospital, 620 00:34:33,172 --> 00:34:35,827 there's a central theme to all of this. 621 00:34:35,931 --> 00:34:39,688 And that theme has to do with sexual promiscuity. 622 00:34:39,793 --> 00:34:42,585 There are third party accounts of these reports. 623 00:34:45,516 --> 00:34:47,516 [Michael] While Natalia was at the state mental hospital, 624 00:34:47,620 --> 00:34:52,757 Kristine and I had gotten phone calls from Larue Carter after a while. 625 00:34:52,862 --> 00:34:55,241 [somber music playing] 626 00:34:57,172 --> 00:35:02,931 She is propositioning men who are mental patients 627 00:35:03,655 --> 00:35:07,379 for sexual activity, 628 00:35:07,482 --> 00:35:11,137 and it's disturbing them and she can't be here. 629 00:35:11,241 --> 00:35:12,827 Those are the exact words. 630 00:35:26,586 --> 00:35:27,448 What? 631 00:35:30,103 --> 00:35:32,241 I don't even remember none of that. 632 00:35:32,344 --> 00:35:36,034 Like, I was a kid in an adult section of a hospital. 633 00:35:37,379 --> 00:35:39,413 And... 634 00:35:39,517 --> 00:35:42,724 Like, I, I don't even remember really being around guys like that. 635 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,827 So I don't know where all of this is coming from. 636 00:35:49,448 --> 00:35:52,448 I don't ever remember talking about having a boyfriend or wanting a boyfriend. 637 00:35:53,068 --> 00:35:55,862 [intense music playing] 638 00:35:55,965 --> 00:35:59,413 Natalia told me that she was in a mental hospital. 639 00:35:59,517 --> 00:36:03,620 And they told her after a full evaluation, 640 00:36:03,724 --> 00:36:06,206 the doctors came and said they couldn't find nothing wrong with her. 641 00:36:06,793 --> 00:36:08,034 She was a normal child. 642 00:36:09,517 --> 00:36:13,034 [Cynthia] But as far as acting out in other ways? 643 00:36:13,137 --> 00:36:15,241 She could have been acting out for attention. 644 00:36:15,344 --> 00:36:17,137 I mean, she was a child. 645 00:36:17,241 --> 00:36:20,482 She probably wanted to get attention however she could. 646 00:36:20,586 --> 00:36:22,965 You know, she could have been acting out to make friends. 647 00:36:23,068 --> 00:36:26,896 She could have been acting out to gets some adults that seen her 648 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,068 to realize, "Hey, I'm struggling here. 649 00:36:29,172 --> 00:36:31,206 Like, I don't know what to do on my own." 650 00:36:33,344 --> 00:36:38,482 It's like, if there is a possibility that I did say sexual comments, 651 00:36:38,586 --> 00:36:41,000 I probably heard that from somebody. 652 00:36:41,103 --> 00:36:44,620 'Cause I was really little and, like, I was at that stage where, like, 653 00:36:44,724 --> 00:36:46,931 not understanding what it is, but I wanna say it 654 00:36:47,034 --> 00:36:50,206 because I heard somebody else say it so I'm thinking, it's okay to say it. 655 00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:52,827 [foreboding music playing] 656 00:36:53,689 --> 00:36:55,724 The truth is that, 657 00:36:55,827 --> 00:37:00,931 I feel like I got exposed to sexual stuff at a really young age. 658 00:37:01,793 --> 00:37:04,517 [intense music playing] 659 00:37:04,620 --> 00:37:08,689 In fact, like, Kristine tried to set me up on a date 660 00:37:08,793 --> 00:37:10,862 at seven years old with a grown man. 661 00:37:12,241 --> 00:37:13,758 Who knows what could have happened? 662 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,586 [upbeat music playing] 663 00:37:26,172 --> 00:37:29,586 Stuff happened while I was in that Westfield apartment. 664 00:37:31,275 --> 00:37:34,172 I got exposed to sexual stuff. 665 00:37:36,137 --> 00:37:37,586 I... 666 00:37:37,689 --> 00:37:40,344 [suspenseful music playing] 667 00:37:43,827 --> 00:37:46,413 Kristine never taught me how to take care of myself. 668 00:37:48,241 --> 00:37:53,724 Kristine never taught me anything about stranger danger or... 669 00:37:53,827 --> 00:37:55,172 She told me she did. 670 00:38:01,068 --> 00:38:02,931 Did you know that she was putting make-up on me? 671 00:38:06,620 --> 00:38:08,896 [Natalia] One day, I was playing in my room. 672 00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,482 [suspenseful music playing] 673 00:38:12,586 --> 00:38:16,137 Kristine came in and she just sat me down on the floor in the kitchen 674 00:38:16,241 --> 00:38:18,068 and she cut my hair. 675 00:38:18,172 --> 00:38:21,482 [suspenseful music playing] 676 00:38:21,586 --> 00:38:24,482 She cut it off all the way to, like, right here. 677 00:38:24,586 --> 00:38:26,206 Like, shoulder-length. 678 00:38:28,172 --> 00:38:31,172 And then, I remember Kristine did my make-up. 679 00:38:35,068 --> 00:38:37,724 Did you know that she was trying to make me look like an adult? 680 00:38:38,862 --> 00:38:40,241 [exhales] 681 00:38:42,758 --> 00:38:47,689 She can create drama out of the most innocent or benign situation. 682 00:38:47,793 --> 00:38:50,620 Such as a mother dressing up her daughter. 683 00:38:50,724 --> 00:38:54,517 You have Kristine Barnett doting over her only female child. 684 00:38:55,517 --> 00:39:01,689 If I factor in the personality of Natalia, 685 00:39:01,793 --> 00:39:05,172 It's easy for me to see how she can turn something so innocent 686 00:39:05,275 --> 00:39:07,379 into something more nefarious. 687 00:39:08,931 --> 00:39:10,482 [Natalia] That's crazy. 688 00:39:11,103 --> 00:39:13,068 Just seeing this? 689 00:39:13,172 --> 00:39:16,896 This is crazy. This is, like, too much. 690 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,310 [stammers] I'm seven years old, I shouldn't even have make-up on. 691 00:39:22,275 --> 00:39:24,241 When she did the make-up, 692 00:39:24,344 --> 00:39:26,413 she literally told me, 693 00:39:27,448 --> 00:39:29,068 "This is what an adult looks like. 694 00:39:29,172 --> 00:39:31,448 When a kid does their make-up, they look like a clown." 695 00:39:38,310 --> 00:39:42,206 Did you know that she was sending them to a guy, trying to get me put me on a date? 696 00:39:42,310 --> 00:39:43,620 No. 697 00:39:45,103 --> 00:39:47,620 I just found that out three or four weeks ago. 698 00:39:50,862 --> 00:39:55,862 It sounds like Kristine maybe, you know, wanting to take pictures of her to send 699 00:39:55,965 --> 00:39:58,862 to Freddie Gill or whoever she was trying to 700 00:39:58,965 --> 00:40:00,827 set up Natalia on a date with. 701 00:40:00,931 --> 00:40:05,344 Thank God Freddie told Kristine, "Absolutely, no way!" 702 00:40:05,448 --> 00:40:09,034 Kristine tried to set me up with a guy when I was seven years old. 703 00:40:09,137 --> 00:40:11,000 With a grown man. 704 00:40:11,896 --> 00:40:14,206 What if the guy raped me? 705 00:40:14,310 --> 00:40:17,482 Like, he could have did anything. He could have kidnapped me. 706 00:40:17,586 --> 00:40:19,103 He could have murdered me. 707 00:40:19,793 --> 00:40:22,344 And, when she did that, 708 00:40:22,448 --> 00:40:24,517 you were in the Westfield apartment, right? 709 00:40:24,620 --> 00:40:25,965 No, I was still in the house. 710 00:40:26,068 --> 00:40:27,965 You were still in the house? Holy [bleep]! 711 00:40:30,137 --> 00:40:32,517 No, I didn't know that. 712 00:40:32,620 --> 00:40:36,137 Did you ever have to speak to any of these people or meet any of these people? 713 00:40:36,241 --> 00:40:39,275 No. I don't remember talking to anybody. 714 00:40:39,379 --> 00:40:42,655 I didn't even know she was doing that until I found out when I was... 715 00:40:44,344 --> 00:40:46,758 2019 maybe? 716 00:40:46,862 --> 00:40:50,034 [Beth] Michael doesn't know anything about this, apparently. 717 00:40:50,758 --> 00:40:52,724 That may be true. 718 00:40:52,827 --> 00:40:55,758 I do believe that there are things that went on in that house 719 00:40:55,862 --> 00:40:58,413 between Kristine and Natalia that Michael's unaware of. 720 00:41:01,034 --> 00:41:03,103 I'm sorry that was your experience. 721 00:41:05,344 --> 00:41:07,586 [Beth] So it's possible he didn't know, 722 00:41:07,689 --> 00:41:09,310 and that he's hearing it for the first time 723 00:41:09,413 --> 00:41:12,310 'cause he seems pretty sincere and apologetic. 724 00:41:12,413 --> 00:41:14,827 I'm sorry that they didn't have the wherewithal 725 00:41:14,931 --> 00:41:17,655 to press the right charges in the right place. 726 00:41:17,758 --> 00:41:20,344 Like, they could still get her right now if they wanted to. 727 00:41:21,241 --> 00:41:23,448 Then again, he is a good salesman. 728 00:41:25,068 --> 00:41:28,172 Michael is an accomplice to the monster. 729 00:41:28,275 --> 00:41:31,034 Because he went along with everything that Kristine said. 730 00:41:31,137 --> 00:41:33,206 I've had nightmares. 731 00:41:34,034 --> 00:41:36,379 I've cried myself to sleep. 732 00:41:37,655 --> 00:41:39,482 [sobbing] For years after. 733 00:41:40,310 --> 00:41:41,620 [sobs] 734 00:41:42,034 --> 00:41:43,448 [cries] 735 00:41:44,551 --> 00:41:46,586 You know what you did was wrong, 736 00:41:46,689 --> 00:41:48,758 but you're trying to keep it under wraps. 737 00:41:48,862 --> 00:41:50,655 [intense music playing] 738 00:41:50,758 --> 00:41:53,758 He still let me be alone with Kristine. 739 00:41:53,862 --> 00:41:57,965 Everything that Kristine told him, he told the world like he was there. 740 00:41:58,068 --> 00:41:59,620 She'd been diagnosed a sociopath. 741 00:41:59,724 --> 00:42:01,275 Con artist, grown up. 742 00:42:01,379 --> 00:42:02,862 She was gonna kill everybody. 743 00:42:02,965 --> 00:42:04,448 [Natalia] But now he's switching up, saying, 744 00:42:04,551 --> 00:42:07,034 "I don't even remember what... I don't know what happened." 745 00:42:07,137 --> 00:42:12,344 I have a lot of suspicions that I can't prove, but I'm sure are there. 746 00:42:12,448 --> 00:42:13,896 I lived through it. 747 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,965 Every time I talk about it, I live through it. 748 00:42:17,068 --> 00:42:19,206 You sound guilty with that. 749 00:42:19,310 --> 00:42:22,413 [intense music playing]