1 00:00:12,847 --> 00:00:14,640 [ Indistinct chanting ] 2 00:00:14,682 --> 00:00:21,564 ** 3 00:00:21,606 --> 00:00:25,526 -I grew up on a Hare Krishna commune. 4 00:00:25,568 --> 00:00:28,780 It was called New Vrindaban. 5 00:00:28,821 --> 00:00:33,618 ** 6 00:00:33,659 --> 00:00:37,413 -It was an enchanting, magical land. 7 00:00:37,455 --> 00:00:41,876 A beautiful, poetic picture of spirituality. 8 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:49,217 But I suffered a lot in life because my family was destroyed. 9 00:00:49,258 --> 00:00:52,595 ** 10 00:00:52,637 --> 00:00:56,349 -It's supposed to be a kind of heaven on Earth. 11 00:00:56,391 --> 00:00:58,810 The goings-on have been anything but angelic. 12 00:00:58,851 --> 00:01:03,147 ** 13 00:01:03,189 --> 00:01:06,609 -What most Americans think when they hear "Hare Krishna" 14 00:01:06,651 --> 00:01:09,779 is devotees dancing in the street. 15 00:01:09,821 --> 00:01:12,365 These are the people in the robes. 16 00:01:12,407 --> 00:01:15,785 They're kind of monks. They're kind of Buddhists. 17 00:01:15,827 --> 00:01:19,372 People think we're some religious cult 18 00:01:19,414 --> 00:01:21,958 in the sense that we all dressed a certain way, 19 00:01:21,999 --> 00:01:24,919 we had a certain mindset. 20 00:01:24,961 --> 00:01:30,174 But it's all about spreading the teachings of Krishna. 21 00:01:31,551 --> 00:01:34,303 There's a soul within everything. 22 00:01:35,555 --> 00:01:37,515 Devotees are supposed to be kind-hearted. 23 00:01:37,557 --> 00:01:41,728 They're supposed to even invite your enemy into your home. 24 00:01:41,769 --> 00:01:43,271 ** 25 00:01:43,312 --> 00:01:46,149 [ Gunshots ] 26 00:01:46,190 --> 00:01:50,987 Nothing about making someone disappear. 27 00:01:51,028 --> 00:01:52,613 -One of the disciples took 28 00:01:52,655 --> 00:01:57,493 that really sweet, early Hare Krishna message, 29 00:01:57,535 --> 00:01:59,912 and he dirtied it. 30 00:01:59,954 --> 00:02:02,165 ** 31 00:02:02,206 --> 00:02:04,417 -This world is a sick place. 32 00:02:04,459 --> 00:02:07,587 This is the place of the fallen, or the conditioned souls. 33 00:02:07,628 --> 00:02:10,423 And it is the place for reformation. 34 00:02:10,465 --> 00:02:12,759 -Kirtanananda Swami, Keith Ham, 35 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,969 wanted to take over the movement, 36 00:02:15,011 --> 00:02:16,971 started issuing all these orders 37 00:02:17,013 --> 00:02:21,726 to the point of engaging in the worst kind of abuse. 38 00:02:21,768 --> 00:02:25,688 -The sexual transgressions, the violence... 39 00:02:25,730 --> 00:02:31,235 the illogical application of the traditional philosophies. 40 00:02:31,277 --> 00:02:35,198 -Rape, torture, and brainwashing they allege they endured... 41 00:02:35,239 --> 00:02:36,866 [ Thunder rumbling ] 42 00:02:36,908 --> 00:02:41,204 -And even now, even after years, it's chilling. 43 00:02:41,245 --> 00:02:42,789 They killed my father. 44 00:02:42,830 --> 00:02:44,874 ** 45 00:02:44,916 --> 00:02:47,919 -Surely, you weren't afraid that Hare Krishnas would murder you? 46 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,587 -Surely, I was. 47 00:02:49,629 --> 00:02:52,340 ** 48 00:02:52,382 --> 00:02:53,883 -He was like the god. 49 00:02:53,925 --> 00:02:59,222 If you did go against Keith Ham... 50 00:02:59,263 --> 00:03:01,057 we didn't hear from you again. 51 00:03:01,099 --> 00:03:06,354 ** 52 00:03:06,396 --> 00:03:11,567 ** 53 00:03:11,609 --> 00:03:13,611 [ Thunder rumbling ] 54 00:03:19,534 --> 00:03:21,411 -When you get to be an old policeman, 55 00:03:21,452 --> 00:03:24,080 you can't carry your cases with you forever, 56 00:03:24,122 --> 00:03:26,916 or you won't live very long. 57 00:03:26,958 --> 00:03:29,836 But this is the case that's probably gonna be with me 58 00:03:29,877 --> 00:03:31,754 the rest of my life. 59 00:03:31,796 --> 00:03:38,636 ** 60 00:03:38,678 --> 00:03:40,847 I'm Detective Sergeant Tom Westfall 61 00:03:40,888 --> 00:03:42,640 of the Marshall County Sheriff's Department, 62 00:03:42,682 --> 00:03:44,434 Marshall County, West Virginia. 63 00:03:44,475 --> 00:03:45,852 Through no fault of my own, 64 00:03:45,893 --> 00:03:48,479 I became known as the "Krishna Cop." 65 00:04:08,332 --> 00:04:10,668 What was happening at New Vrindaban 66 00:04:10,710 --> 00:04:15,548 actually did follow what the definition of a cult is. 67 00:04:15,590 --> 00:04:18,134 Devotees were told that people wanted to harm them, 68 00:04:18,176 --> 00:04:20,344 people hated them. 69 00:04:20,386 --> 00:04:25,099 The devotees had their trust in a really aggressive personality, 70 00:04:25,141 --> 00:04:26,684 Keith Ham. 71 00:04:26,726 --> 00:04:28,811 He was the one that would save them and protect them 72 00:04:28,853 --> 00:04:31,439 and lead them in their spiritual quest. 73 00:04:32,815 --> 00:04:36,778 But none of them expected to be in the middle of murders. 74 00:04:36,819 --> 00:04:42,700 ** 75 00:04:42,742 --> 00:04:46,996 The irony of the case was that Krishna consciousness -- 76 00:04:47,038 --> 00:04:50,583 You know, it's non-material and it's nonviolent. 77 00:04:50,625 --> 00:04:52,001 It is a real religion, 78 00:04:52,043 --> 00:04:54,504 and if we followed all of the rules, 79 00:04:54,545 --> 00:04:56,464 it would be such a wonderful world. 80 00:04:56,506 --> 00:04:58,841 [ Indistinct singing ] 81 00:04:58,883 --> 00:05:01,511 -It's called the Hare Krishna movement. 82 00:05:01,552 --> 00:05:03,012 A colorful group often seen 83 00:05:03,054 --> 00:05:04,931 dancing and chanting in the street. 84 00:05:49,100 --> 00:05:52,186 -Prabhupada was the charismatic leader, 85 00:05:52,228 --> 00:05:56,524 an elderly, saintly person from India. 86 00:05:56,566 --> 00:05:59,318 The closest thing that anybody had seen seen, 87 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,821 say, to Jesus Christ. 88 00:06:27,138 --> 00:06:30,767 Prabhupada didn't invent Krishna consciousness, 89 00:06:30,808 --> 00:06:33,686 which is thousands of years old. 90 00:06:33,728 --> 00:06:36,272 But Prabhupada invented novel ways 91 00:06:36,314 --> 00:06:40,443 to attract people to the Hare Krishna movement. 92 00:06:40,485 --> 00:06:44,614 ** 93 00:06:44,655 --> 00:06:48,826 -Krishna consciousness was born in '60s America. 94 00:06:48,868 --> 00:06:52,163 I call this "the perfect window in time." 95 00:06:52,205 --> 00:06:54,165 ** 96 00:06:54,207 --> 00:06:56,292 Vietnam... 97 00:06:56,334 --> 00:06:58,127 civil-rights violence... 98 00:06:58,169 --> 00:07:01,839 President Kennedy assassinated... 99 00:07:01,881 --> 00:07:07,178 and millions of young Americans looking for life's answer. 100 00:07:07,220 --> 00:07:08,513 -There was great hopefulness 101 00:07:08,554 --> 00:07:11,974 in the beginning of the hippie development. 102 00:07:12,016 --> 00:07:15,186 Our slogan was "Love and peace, brother, 103 00:07:15,228 --> 00:07:18,731 love and peace, sister." 104 00:07:18,773 --> 00:07:23,069 -In the face of all this ugliness, 105 00:07:23,111 --> 00:07:26,155 the hippie movement led to psychedelics 106 00:07:26,197 --> 00:07:29,867 as a way to experience that there is another reality, 107 00:07:29,909 --> 00:07:33,746 there is another way to see things. 108 00:07:33,788 --> 00:07:37,166 -But there was a lot of ugliness creeping in. 109 00:07:37,208 --> 00:07:41,629 A lot of the drugs were starting to feel and taste 110 00:07:41,671 --> 00:07:43,673 and look just like all the stuff 111 00:07:43,715 --> 00:07:47,218 we were trying to get away from, actually. 112 00:07:57,395 --> 00:07:59,522 And then Prabhupada stepped in. 113 00:07:59,564 --> 00:08:03,234 -* Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna * 114 00:08:08,364 --> 00:08:10,783 [ Indistinct singing ] 115 00:08:10,825 --> 00:08:12,994 -What drew people to him was music. 116 00:08:13,035 --> 00:08:15,204 The whole philosophy is based 117 00:08:15,246 --> 00:08:19,208 on the chanting of transcendental sounds. 118 00:08:19,250 --> 00:08:25,131 -He knew that he had the formula to help them stay high forever. 119 00:08:28,426 --> 00:08:30,344 -"Stay high forever." 120 00:08:30,386 --> 00:08:32,305 -"No more coming down." 121 00:08:32,346 --> 00:08:34,974 Hare Krishna. Hare Krishna. 122 00:08:35,016 --> 00:08:36,225 -Krishna, Krishna. -Krishna, Krishna. 123 00:08:36,267 --> 00:08:38,936 Hare, Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama. 124 00:08:38,978 --> 00:08:40,730 Rama, Rama, Hare, Hare. 125 00:08:40,772 --> 00:08:44,692 -Translated, that means, "God and God's energy, 126 00:08:44,734 --> 00:08:47,945 please engage me in service to you." 127 00:08:47,987 --> 00:08:52,575 [ Indistinct chanting ] 128 00:08:52,617 --> 00:08:54,577 When we were chanting 129 00:08:54,619 --> 00:08:57,580 and at the same time passing out food, 130 00:08:57,622 --> 00:08:59,540 that was a recruiting tool. 131 00:08:59,582 --> 00:09:03,294 And they'd come in, hundreds and hundreds of people. 132 00:09:03,336 --> 00:09:07,715 [ Indistinct chanting ] 133 00:09:07,757 --> 00:09:09,884 -He always said the only way 134 00:09:09,926 --> 00:09:12,261 peace will prevail on this planet 135 00:09:12,303 --> 00:09:17,767 is when the actions of humankind revolve around the love of God. 136 00:09:17,809 --> 00:09:20,770 And his goal was clear -- 137 00:09:20,812 --> 00:09:23,481 to change the world. 138 00:09:23,523 --> 00:09:26,734 [ Indistinct chanting ] 139 00:09:26,776 --> 00:09:28,986 We gave up drugs... 140 00:09:29,028 --> 00:09:32,573 and we got hooked on the Swami. 141 00:09:32,615 --> 00:09:36,452 -We never saw him as somebody not to be trusted. 142 00:09:36,494 --> 00:09:38,121 He was not a cheater... 143 00:09:38,162 --> 00:09:41,290 in a world of cheating and disappointment. 144 00:09:41,332 --> 00:09:44,544 There was implicit trust and faith in him. 145 00:09:44,585 --> 00:09:47,880 ** 146 00:09:47,922 --> 00:09:51,467 -We not only trust him, we give up everything. 147 00:09:51,509 --> 00:09:55,847 I gave up a school scholarship. I gave up my home, my family. 148 00:09:55,888 --> 00:09:58,891 And I joined the Hare Krishnas. 149 00:09:58,933 --> 00:10:02,395 -But there were certain rules and regulations. 150 00:10:02,437 --> 00:10:04,897 No intoxication of any sorts. 151 00:10:04,939 --> 00:10:08,776 No more weed. No more LSD. Nothing. 152 00:10:08,818 --> 00:10:11,028 -Not even coffee or tea. 153 00:10:11,070 --> 00:10:12,488 -...barbecue sauce... 154 00:10:12,530 --> 00:10:15,032 -No meat eating. -No gambling. 155 00:10:15,074 --> 00:10:18,828 Mental speculation. Like, even the stock market. 156 00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:21,998 -And no more illicit sex. 157 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:24,459 -So no sex outside of marriage. 158 00:10:24,500 --> 00:10:27,503 -Well, that was a big one. 159 00:10:27,545 --> 00:10:30,590 So it presented challenges. 160 00:10:30,631 --> 00:10:35,344 After I left medical school, at the time of initiation, 161 00:10:35,386 --> 00:10:40,058 they would shave our head, shave our mustaches and beard, 162 00:10:40,099 --> 00:10:44,353 and it would be more of a monastic look. 163 00:10:46,064 --> 00:10:48,941 Then Prabhupada changed all of our names 164 00:10:48,983 --> 00:10:54,822 from a Western name to a more mystical, spiritual name. 165 00:10:54,864 --> 00:10:57,742 So I went from Bill to Bhagavan. 166 00:10:57,784 --> 00:10:59,952 [ Cheering ] 167 00:10:59,994 --> 00:11:03,372 That helps you rebirth yourself. 168 00:11:03,414 --> 00:11:05,708 Your first birth by biological parents, 169 00:11:05,750 --> 00:11:08,961 your second birth by your spiritual mentor. 170 00:11:09,003 --> 00:11:13,216 [ Indistinct chanting ] 171 00:11:13,257 --> 00:11:15,426 -But when you get young, immature people, 172 00:11:15,468 --> 00:11:18,012 you're going to get a certain percentage of people 173 00:11:18,054 --> 00:11:20,348 who are just wired for trouble. 174 00:11:20,390 --> 00:11:24,102 ** 175 00:11:24,143 --> 00:11:27,897 -One of Prabhupada's very first disciples was Keith Ham, 176 00:11:27,939 --> 00:11:30,233 who became Kirtanananda. 177 00:11:36,489 --> 00:11:41,119 Kirtanananda came from a Baptist preacher family. 178 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,414 He had a pretty vast intelligence. 179 00:11:44,455 --> 00:11:49,127 But your intelligence can tie you up in knots, too. 180 00:11:49,168 --> 00:11:53,131 -He dropped out of a doctoral program in history, 181 00:11:53,172 --> 00:11:55,258 but he had a real work ethic. 182 00:11:55,299 --> 00:11:57,093 I mean, he was just work, work, work. 183 00:11:57,135 --> 00:11:59,011 So he was the first disciple of Prabhupada 184 00:11:59,053 --> 00:12:03,433 to take Sannyasi, which he did in 1967. 185 00:12:03,474 --> 00:12:05,643 And so he was, like, the only Sannyasi 186 00:12:05,685 --> 00:12:07,520 besides Prabhupada in the Hare Krishna movement, 187 00:12:07,562 --> 00:12:09,188 which gave him this great status. 188 00:12:09,230 --> 00:12:11,566 But I knew from the very beginning 189 00:12:11,607 --> 00:12:14,819 his maybe two most characteristic features 190 00:12:14,861 --> 00:12:17,488 were ability and ambition. 191 00:12:22,994 --> 00:12:25,079 -He was like a dominator. 192 00:12:25,121 --> 00:12:29,625 He wasn't...a uniter. 193 00:12:29,667 --> 00:12:34,630 Prabhupada worked with him and held all of us together. 194 00:12:34,672 --> 00:12:36,257 ** 195 00:12:36,299 --> 00:12:41,804 So peak growth occurred because he was here. 196 00:12:41,846 --> 00:12:44,182 [ Indistinct chanting ] 197 00:12:49,979 --> 00:12:53,983 -This was our first coup d'état. 198 00:12:54,025 --> 00:12:57,278 Srila Prabhupada and Krishna consciousness 199 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,072 come west. 200 00:12:59,113 --> 00:13:00,698 -In those days, I had close friends 201 00:13:00,740 --> 00:13:04,077 in the emerging music world, 202 00:13:04,118 --> 00:13:07,163 so I asked around, 203 00:13:07,205 --> 00:13:10,666 and the Mantra-Rock concert was born. 204 00:13:10,708 --> 00:13:12,960 [ Rock music plays ] 205 00:13:13,002 --> 00:13:15,546 -Prabhupada flew out to San Francisco. 206 00:13:15,588 --> 00:13:18,132 Allen Ginsberg was there. 207 00:13:18,174 --> 00:13:20,176 -Big Brother and the Holding Company, 208 00:13:20,218 --> 00:13:23,179 a.k.a. Janis Joplin. 209 00:13:23,221 --> 00:13:25,223 -My friend Jerry Garcia said 210 00:13:25,264 --> 00:13:27,517 that the Grateful Dead would play. 211 00:13:27,558 --> 00:13:29,227 The Swami showed up 212 00:13:29,268 --> 00:13:31,354 and led more than a thousand hippies 213 00:13:31,396 --> 00:13:34,440 in the "Hare Krishna" mantra. 214 00:13:34,482 --> 00:13:39,529 -So that blew up the whole West Coast/San Francisco scene. 215 00:13:41,155 --> 00:13:45,535 And then the devotees went to England. 216 00:13:45,576 --> 00:13:46,828 -We were thinking 217 00:13:46,869 --> 00:13:49,705 if the Beatles start chanting "Hare Krishna," 218 00:13:49,747 --> 00:13:52,291 that will get the attention of the whole world, 219 00:13:52,333 --> 00:13:56,003 and the whole world will chant "Hare Krishna." 220 00:13:56,045 --> 00:13:57,213 You know, Prabhupada -- 221 00:13:57,255 --> 00:13:59,590 If there was a spark, he'd fan it. 222 00:13:59,632 --> 00:14:01,884 ** 223 00:14:01,926 --> 00:14:06,013 -We went down to the Apple office. 224 00:14:06,055 --> 00:14:07,432 One of our tricks we pulled 225 00:14:07,473 --> 00:14:11,144 was we made an apple pie and sent it down 226 00:14:11,185 --> 00:14:15,356 with "Hare Krishna" inscribed in the surface. 227 00:14:15,398 --> 00:14:21,070 And then we got invited to the Apple Christmas party. 228 00:14:21,112 --> 00:14:24,407 George sat down across the table from me and he said, 229 00:14:24,449 --> 00:14:28,578 "Where have you been? I've been waiting to meet you." 230 00:14:28,619 --> 00:14:33,249 And that started our lifelong friendship. 231 00:14:33,291 --> 00:14:38,171 By May and June, a few of us were living with George. 232 00:14:38,212 --> 00:14:41,758 And George was like Prabhupada's favorite son. 233 00:14:41,799 --> 00:14:43,760 [ Typewriter clacking ] 234 00:14:43,801 --> 00:14:52,727 ** 235 00:14:52,769 --> 00:14:58,524 One morning, George started singing this wild gospel melody. 236 00:14:58,566 --> 00:15:00,943 * Hallelujah * 237 00:15:00,985 --> 00:15:02,236 So I start yelling... 238 00:15:02,278 --> 00:15:06,240 * Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna * 239 00:15:06,282 --> 00:15:08,117 And it just sort of blended in 240 00:15:08,159 --> 00:15:11,079 and became part of the ultimate song. 241 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:12,580 "My Sweet Lord" 242 00:15:12,622 --> 00:15:16,334 was one of the greatest-selling songs of all time. 243 00:15:16,375 --> 00:15:18,628 -Everything happened from there. 244 00:15:20,171 --> 00:15:23,132 -That was huge growth. 245 00:15:23,174 --> 00:15:25,426 Everyone had the momentum 246 00:15:25,468 --> 00:15:28,137 of propagating the mission of the movement, 247 00:15:28,179 --> 00:15:30,306 which was to spread, 248 00:15:30,348 --> 00:15:35,478 proselytizing the tradition that we were in. 249 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,481 -I mean, we were so naive back then. 250 00:15:38,523 --> 00:15:42,235 And then inevitably some very bad things did happen 251 00:15:42,276 --> 00:15:45,988 within the Hare Krishna movement. 252 00:15:46,030 --> 00:15:47,407 Unfortunately, when Prabhupada 253 00:15:47,448 --> 00:15:50,159 met George Harrison and the Beatles, 254 00:15:50,201 --> 00:15:53,121 that triggered Keith Ham because he became jealous 255 00:15:53,162 --> 00:15:56,249 of what was going on in England. 256 00:15:56,290 --> 00:15:59,502 And so he tried to take over the movement. 257 00:15:59,544 --> 00:16:03,423 ** 258 00:16:06,801 --> 00:16:11,389 ** 259 00:16:11,431 --> 00:16:13,683 -Those of us who were early devotees, 260 00:16:13,725 --> 00:16:16,394 we already knew this guy Kirtanananda had this -- 261 00:16:16,436 --> 00:16:19,689 what I would call a renegade propensity. 262 00:16:19,731 --> 00:16:23,985 Declared that he was the successor to God 263 00:16:24,026 --> 00:16:27,697 who can cheat people and lie and steal and even murder 264 00:16:27,739 --> 00:16:31,701 because it's all for the higher cause. 265 00:16:31,743 --> 00:16:34,454 Kirtanananda was ambitious, and he saw -- 266 00:16:34,495 --> 00:16:35,872 "Here's an opportunity. 267 00:16:35,913 --> 00:16:39,500 Maybe I can take advantage of this movement." 268 00:16:48,426 --> 00:16:53,890 -The major reason really that you can say why things expanded 269 00:16:53,931 --> 00:16:56,893 was that Prabhupada at his late age 270 00:16:56,934 --> 00:17:00,605 never stopped traveling. 271 00:17:00,646 --> 00:17:04,567 We were building the temples, and Prabhupada had a directive 272 00:17:04,609 --> 00:17:07,612 of how he wanted the society to run. 273 00:17:07,653 --> 00:17:11,407 The official organization was the International Society 274 00:17:11,449 --> 00:17:13,951 for Krishna Consciousness -- ISKCON. 275 00:17:15,536 --> 00:17:19,248 Kirtanananda was seen within ISKCON 276 00:17:19,290 --> 00:17:20,875 as a free radical. 277 00:17:20,917 --> 00:17:23,086 -As a Sannyasi, which was, like, kind of like 278 00:17:23,127 --> 00:17:24,629 God on Earth in those days. 279 00:17:24,670 --> 00:17:27,340 Kirtanananda, son of a Baptist minister. 280 00:17:27,382 --> 00:17:28,758 He said that Prabhupada -- 281 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,301 "Yeah, he's real nice and everything, 282 00:17:30,343 --> 00:17:34,514 but you know he doesn't understand about our culture." 283 00:17:34,555 --> 00:17:36,265 -He didn't like the way Prabhupada wanted us 284 00:17:36,307 --> 00:17:37,767 to dress in Indian robes. 285 00:17:37,809 --> 00:17:40,603 Kirtanananda wanted us to dress in suit-and-tie. 286 00:17:40,645 --> 00:17:42,814 And then at one point, Kirtanananda stole 287 00:17:42,855 --> 00:17:46,317 Prabhupada's "Bhagavad Gita" manuscript. 288 00:17:54,534 --> 00:17:56,661 He went to some publisher and he said, 289 00:17:56,702 --> 00:17:58,538 "I'm the author of this book." 290 00:17:58,579 --> 00:18:01,791 He was trying to take credit for Prabhupada's work, 291 00:18:01,833 --> 00:18:03,918 and they just didn't believe him. 292 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,837 -Prabhupada heard about it, then Prabhupada 293 00:18:05,878 --> 00:18:07,922 started writing letters saying that, you know, 294 00:18:07,964 --> 00:18:10,550 "Unfortunately, our Kirtanananda has gone crazy." 295 00:18:10,591 --> 00:18:12,135 [ Typewriter clacking ] 296 00:18:12,176 --> 00:18:13,594 -"Kirtanananda is a crazy man. 297 00:18:13,636 --> 00:18:16,973 Maybe we should get him into Bellevue." 298 00:18:17,014 --> 00:18:19,142 -He sort of went to war with Prabhupada. 299 00:18:19,183 --> 00:18:21,686 And Prabhupada, of course, won 300 00:18:21,728 --> 00:18:24,814 because his disciples were loyal to him. 301 00:18:24,856 --> 00:18:27,275 -The devotees were spitting on Kirtanananda. 302 00:18:27,316 --> 00:18:28,943 They were so upset with him. 303 00:18:28,985 --> 00:18:31,070 -For the next year or so, he was really -- 304 00:18:31,112 --> 00:18:33,322 He was outside the Hare Krishna movement, 305 00:18:33,364 --> 00:18:35,658 sort of persona non grata. 306 00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:39,162 -But he had caught on to one of Prabhupada's plans, 307 00:18:39,203 --> 00:18:41,873 which was to have farm communities. 308 00:18:41,914 --> 00:18:45,543 ** 309 00:18:45,585 --> 00:18:47,712 -Kirtanananda decided to start a community 310 00:18:47,754 --> 00:18:51,090 in the West Virginia Panhandle. 311 00:18:51,132 --> 00:18:52,675 It not only was the West Virginia Panhandle, 312 00:18:52,717 --> 00:18:56,179 but it was, like, remote even for the Panhandle. 313 00:18:56,220 --> 00:18:59,515 And then he started to develop New Vrindaban commune. 314 00:18:59,557 --> 00:19:07,690 ** 315 00:19:07,732 --> 00:19:10,318 -The creation myth, in terms of how the Hare Krishnas 316 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,111 ended up with a foothold in West Virginia, 317 00:19:12,153 --> 00:19:15,114 begins with an ad in the "San Francisco Oracle." 318 00:19:15,156 --> 00:19:18,910 Richard Rose puts an ad in the "Oracle" in 1968 319 00:19:18,951 --> 00:19:20,703 saying that he is looking to start 320 00:19:20,745 --> 00:19:23,623 a "non-denominational" spiritual ashram. 321 00:19:23,664 --> 00:19:27,293 -Had an idea about setting up a philosophic center, 322 00:19:27,335 --> 00:19:29,754 a place where people could come without charge, 323 00:19:29,796 --> 00:19:34,384 without obligation, without being brainwashed. 324 00:19:34,425 --> 00:19:36,052 -It was about 130 acres, 325 00:19:36,094 --> 00:19:38,262 and my father was looking for someone 326 00:19:38,304 --> 00:19:42,892 that he hoped was like-minded in his philosophical pursuits 327 00:19:42,934 --> 00:19:46,229 to come out and lease that property from him 328 00:19:46,270 --> 00:19:48,398 and take care of it. 329 00:19:48,439 --> 00:19:51,025 -Keith Ham said, "We were formerly members 330 00:19:51,067 --> 00:19:53,486 of the Hare Krishna community," but they were disaffected, 331 00:19:53,528 --> 00:19:55,363 and, "We want to start 332 00:19:55,405 --> 00:19:58,741 a non-dogmatic spiritual ashram, as well." 333 00:19:58,783 --> 00:20:00,618 So it was a 99-year lease, 334 00:20:00,660 --> 00:20:02,829 and basically it was -- you pay the taxes 335 00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:05,623 and have a non-dogmatic spiritual community, 336 00:20:05,665 --> 00:20:07,250 and it's yours. 337 00:20:07,291 --> 00:20:08,918 As soon as the lease was signed, 338 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,171 they put on bed sheets and started chanting. 339 00:20:27,103 --> 00:20:29,814 -When I started being a deputy sheriff in Marshall County, 340 00:20:29,856 --> 00:20:32,233 I drove down just to see what it was. 341 00:20:32,275 --> 00:20:34,694 They were going to have a farm and they were going to build it 342 00:20:34,736 --> 00:20:37,447 into a Krishna center, 343 00:20:37,488 --> 00:20:40,658 and he hoped to redeem himself in the eyes of Prabhupada. 344 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:42,952 [ Indistinct chanting, rhythmic drums playing ] 345 00:20:42,994 --> 00:20:49,959 ** 346 00:20:50,001 --> 00:20:51,669 Prabhupada came to visit the farm, 347 00:20:51,711 --> 00:20:54,297 and even though it was very primitive, 348 00:20:54,338 --> 00:20:57,425 he approved of it and he accepted Kirtanananda 349 00:20:57,467 --> 00:20:59,969 back into the fold. 350 00:21:00,011 --> 00:21:04,682 -Prabhupada saw his disciples as his children. 351 00:21:17,487 --> 00:21:20,656 -Prabhupada encouraged the New Vrindaban project, 352 00:21:20,698 --> 00:21:22,158 but Prabhupada was being very merciful 353 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,786 because he was trying to get something going 354 00:21:24,827 --> 00:21:27,246 with whatever tools he had in the toolbox, 355 00:21:27,288 --> 00:21:29,457 which weren't very good tools. 356 00:21:29,499 --> 00:21:31,209 [ Laughs ] 357 00:21:36,881 --> 00:21:39,133 [ Typewriter clacking ] 358 00:21:43,429 --> 00:21:49,143 ** 359 00:21:49,185 --> 00:21:51,354 -We soon found out that it wasn't going to be 360 00:21:51,396 --> 00:21:52,730 just a couple of folks, 361 00:21:52,772 --> 00:21:54,190 that there were more people coming 362 00:21:54,232 --> 00:21:56,692 and that they embraced a holistic lifestyle 363 00:21:56,734 --> 00:21:59,404 that was attractive to a lot of younger folks. 364 00:21:59,445 --> 00:22:01,364 ** 365 00:22:01,406 --> 00:22:03,449 They would publicize that, 366 00:22:03,491 --> 00:22:08,204 and there would be promotions to bring people out here. 367 00:22:08,246 --> 00:22:09,414 -Devotees serve Krishna 368 00:22:09,455 --> 00:22:11,874 according to their special propensities. 369 00:22:11,916 --> 00:22:14,502 We do not need liquor shops, gambling clubs, 370 00:22:14,544 --> 00:22:16,379 slaughterhouses, or brothels. 371 00:22:16,421 --> 00:22:19,507 -I simply want that you should live simply, 372 00:22:19,549 --> 00:22:23,678 chant, "Hare Krishna," have no worries, and be happy. 373 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,891 ** 374 00:22:28,933 --> 00:22:33,187 -My experience with Kirtanananda is that he -- 375 00:22:33,229 --> 00:22:35,940 he had a way of dealing with people 376 00:22:35,982 --> 00:22:38,401 that he would make you feel like 377 00:22:38,443 --> 00:22:42,739 you wanted to do things for him or to help him. 378 00:22:42,780 --> 00:22:44,532 When I first met Kirtanananda, 379 00:22:44,574 --> 00:22:48,953 he was talking about how great New Vrindaban was. 380 00:22:48,995 --> 00:22:51,789 My boyfriend at that time, we had very little money, 381 00:22:51,831 --> 00:22:53,750 so we were thinking this would be 382 00:22:53,791 --> 00:22:55,752 a really nice place to move to. 383 00:22:55,793 --> 00:22:58,337 "Let's go there. It's a farm." 384 00:22:59,714 --> 00:23:03,551 Um, was I 15? 16. 385 00:23:03,593 --> 00:23:05,720 ** 386 00:23:05,762 --> 00:23:08,473 My dad and mom were alcoholics. 387 00:23:08,514 --> 00:23:11,267 I was actually an alcoholic before I joined the Krishnas. 388 00:23:11,309 --> 00:23:14,979 14 years old, I was drinking like a fish. 389 00:23:15,021 --> 00:23:18,107 A lot of people's experience with their parents, 390 00:23:18,149 --> 00:23:20,610 telling them that, "I'm going to join the Krishnas," 391 00:23:20,651 --> 00:23:22,028 they were freaked out. 392 00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:24,238 I said, "They don't drink, smoke, take drugs, 393 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:25,782 or have sex or anything. 394 00:23:25,823 --> 00:23:27,825 You know, they live a clean life." 395 00:23:27,867 --> 00:23:30,119 She said, "I think that'd be a great idea." 396 00:23:30,161 --> 00:23:31,829 [ Laughs ] She was so happy. 397 00:23:31,871 --> 00:23:35,166 'Cause I was completely wild back then. 398 00:23:35,208 --> 00:23:37,126 ** 399 00:23:37,168 --> 00:23:38,961 -Devotees were recruited to come there. 400 00:23:39,003 --> 00:23:41,464 They were told that it was going to be a pastoral, 401 00:23:41,506 --> 00:23:44,801 non-material lifestyle. 402 00:23:44,842 --> 00:23:48,846 When they got there, they found out that it was really a slum. 403 00:23:48,888 --> 00:23:52,016 Some of the people lived in lean-tos. 404 00:23:52,058 --> 00:23:55,311 Some lived in old cars. 405 00:23:55,353 --> 00:23:57,271 There was a farm building 406 00:23:57,313 --> 00:23:58,940 and a couple of ramshackle houses 407 00:23:58,981 --> 00:24:01,818 that were off in the other parts of the property. 408 00:24:01,859 --> 00:24:04,195 So life was pretty difficult there. 409 00:24:04,237 --> 00:24:06,197 -When I would go to New Vrindaban, 410 00:24:06,239 --> 00:24:09,200 the unhealthy psychology was sort of palpable 411 00:24:09,242 --> 00:24:12,036 because Kirtanananda, you know, was a big spiritual leader, 412 00:24:12,078 --> 00:24:14,664 but he just wasn't a normal person. 413 00:24:14,705 --> 00:24:16,165 He wasn't, like, a nice guy. 414 00:24:16,207 --> 00:24:19,502 His mood, his psychology permeated everything. 415 00:24:19,544 --> 00:24:21,754 And then it got worse. 416 00:24:28,511 --> 00:24:30,513 [ Thunder rumbles ] 417 00:24:30,555 --> 00:24:33,599 -What it was first like when I went there 418 00:24:33,641 --> 00:24:35,852 was pretty rough. 419 00:24:35,893 --> 00:24:38,771 We slept in the barn with the cows. 420 00:24:38,813 --> 00:24:41,315 [ Chuckles ] 421 00:24:41,357 --> 00:24:43,860 It was pretty rough. There wasn't very much space 422 00:24:43,901 --> 00:24:46,696 for anybody to sleep or do anything. 423 00:24:46,738 --> 00:24:50,867 You were real redneck devotees. 424 00:24:50,908 --> 00:24:52,201 ** 425 00:24:52,243 --> 00:24:54,245 -It was just a mud hole. 426 00:24:54,287 --> 00:24:56,748 You know, they were doing a lot of construction out there, 427 00:24:56,789 --> 00:24:59,375 and it was amateur hour. 428 00:24:59,417 --> 00:25:00,626 I mean, you're talking about 429 00:25:00,668 --> 00:25:02,545 young people that were in their 20s, 430 00:25:02,587 --> 00:25:04,797 and I don't think they really knew what they were doing 431 00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:06,466 or how they were supposed to do it, 432 00:25:06,507 --> 00:25:09,677 and the sewage system was completely inadequate. 433 00:25:09,719 --> 00:25:12,055 Of course, they would defecate along the road. 434 00:25:12,096 --> 00:25:13,890 I mean, the stench was overwhelming 435 00:25:13,931 --> 00:25:16,017 when you would pass by. 436 00:25:17,769 --> 00:25:19,896 -Now, I had a cabin close to it. 437 00:25:19,937 --> 00:25:21,939 They were just bad neighbors. 438 00:25:21,981 --> 00:25:24,192 The chanting just never stopped. 439 00:25:24,233 --> 00:25:26,152 It was just on the loudspeaker. 440 00:25:26,194 --> 00:25:27,945 And I learned to meditate 441 00:25:27,987 --> 00:25:29,947 through "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, 442 00:25:29,989 --> 00:25:31,783 Hare Rama, Hare Rama." 443 00:25:31,824 --> 00:25:34,368 ** 444 00:25:34,410 --> 00:25:37,371 -We kept mostly cloistered. You know? 445 00:25:37,413 --> 00:25:39,415 It was like mostly kept to ourselves. 446 00:25:39,457 --> 00:25:42,585 But their view of us, I know as a fact, 447 00:25:42,627 --> 00:25:45,004 was like we were a cult. 448 00:25:45,046 --> 00:25:50,218 You know, a baby-killing cult or something. Bunch of crazies. 449 00:25:50,259 --> 00:25:51,469 -They just don't act like 450 00:25:51,511 --> 00:25:54,639 a normal group of people ought to. 451 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,101 -We were a little shocked and aggrieved 452 00:25:58,142 --> 00:26:00,311 that some of our neighbors felt this way. 453 00:26:00,353 --> 00:26:03,106 We've tried many times to invite all of our neighbors 454 00:26:03,147 --> 00:26:06,109 to come and see us, talk to us, 455 00:26:06,150 --> 00:26:08,945 see firsthand what we're doing, 456 00:26:08,986 --> 00:26:11,072 and they don't seem to want to come. 457 00:26:11,114 --> 00:26:14,200 ** 458 00:26:14,242 --> 00:26:16,452 -I think it's wrong to denigrate people 459 00:26:16,494 --> 00:26:21,249 who are attracted to things like the Hare Krishna religion. 460 00:26:21,290 --> 00:26:24,627 The devotees came to New Vrindaban, 461 00:26:24,669 --> 00:26:26,963 and they weren't stupid. 462 00:26:27,004 --> 00:26:29,465 What they were is they were hopeful. 463 00:26:29,507 --> 00:26:33,970 ** 464 00:26:34,011 --> 00:26:36,973 -I was born in Southern California. 465 00:26:37,014 --> 00:26:39,308 I was the black sheep of the family, 466 00:26:39,350 --> 00:26:44,147 and I was just longing to... 467 00:26:44,188 --> 00:26:46,315 be different... 468 00:26:46,357 --> 00:26:48,317 like the cool hippie kids. 469 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,361 I was hitchhiking across the country, 470 00:26:50,403 --> 00:26:54,157 and I got as far as Boulder, Colorado, 471 00:26:54,198 --> 00:26:56,659 and I went into the university there. 472 00:26:56,701 --> 00:26:58,369 And the first thing I saw 473 00:26:58,411 --> 00:27:01,414 were these guys in orange robes and shaved heads. 474 00:27:01,456 --> 00:27:06,377 And I just went, "Wow! Spiritual energy." 475 00:27:06,419 --> 00:27:09,672 And I just got...sucked in. 476 00:27:09,714 --> 00:27:11,716 ** 477 00:27:11,758 --> 00:27:14,927 They were trying to convince me to come and stay with them. 478 00:27:14,969 --> 00:27:17,597 They kept saying, "You never know what something's like 479 00:27:17,638 --> 00:27:18,973 until you come live it." 480 00:27:19,015 --> 00:27:21,559 And so I promised that I would stay for six months. 481 00:27:21,601 --> 00:27:23,853 And they promised that if I didn't like it 482 00:27:23,895 --> 00:27:25,354 after six months, I could leave. 483 00:27:25,396 --> 00:27:28,649 So I went with them... 484 00:27:28,691 --> 00:27:31,027 and, um... 485 00:27:31,069 --> 00:27:33,071 didn't get out for 11 years. 486 00:27:33,112 --> 00:27:35,031 ** 487 00:27:35,073 --> 00:27:40,703 Well, New Vrindaban had this aura of some kind of mystique. 488 00:27:41,746 --> 00:27:45,750 Part of me was scared to death. Part of me was kind of excited. 489 00:27:47,335 --> 00:27:51,881 I brought what little I had into my living quarters, 490 00:27:51,923 --> 00:27:58,179 which happened to be above the cows in the barn. 491 00:27:58,221 --> 00:27:59,889 [ Cows mooing ] 492 00:27:59,931 --> 00:28:02,517 And the first thing I had to do 493 00:28:02,558 --> 00:28:07,188 was learn how to wash the walls with cow urine. 494 00:28:07,230 --> 00:28:08,689 Pretty stinky job. 495 00:28:08,731 --> 00:28:13,569 But it was believed that the cow urine was antiseptic, 496 00:28:13,611 --> 00:28:17,865 and so that's how we're going to clean things. 497 00:28:17,907 --> 00:28:20,076 The food was a shock. 498 00:28:20,118 --> 00:28:23,579 This brown, gooey substance 499 00:28:23,621 --> 00:28:27,208 served on the floor on a piece of wax paper. 500 00:28:27,250 --> 00:28:30,128 It was very, very cold. 501 00:28:30,169 --> 00:28:32,338 We took our showers outside. 502 00:28:32,380 --> 00:28:37,135 We were allowed about a gallon of hot water a day. 503 00:28:37,176 --> 00:28:40,346 You could traipse across the snow 504 00:28:40,388 --> 00:28:42,557 into this little enclosure, 505 00:28:42,598 --> 00:28:44,600 pour your hot water over your head, 506 00:28:44,642 --> 00:28:49,522 and your feet are being frozen to the boards underneath. 507 00:28:49,564 --> 00:28:54,610 There were families living in very small rooms with no heat, 508 00:28:54,652 --> 00:28:59,615 so children were going to bed in snowsuits and mittens. 509 00:28:59,657 --> 00:29:03,035 There were times when I really, really wanted to leave, 510 00:29:03,077 --> 00:29:06,080 but I had made this promise to stay for six months. 511 00:29:06,122 --> 00:29:11,252 And by the end of that six months, I was brainwashed. 512 00:29:11,294 --> 00:29:13,671 I was there. I was in. 513 00:29:13,713 --> 00:29:18,259 I had quite a bit of respect for Keith Ham. 514 00:29:18,301 --> 00:29:21,846 He was our spiritual leader. 515 00:29:21,888 --> 00:29:24,932 -We look a little different. We dress a little different. 516 00:29:24,974 --> 00:29:27,185 -He was always in this really soothing 517 00:29:27,226 --> 00:29:31,731 and calm way of talking to you, you know? 518 00:29:31,773 --> 00:29:34,525 But you could see the wheels turning in his head. 519 00:29:34,567 --> 00:29:37,653 Manipulative. Power-hungry. 520 00:29:37,695 --> 00:29:40,406 He was the devil incarnate, really. 521 00:29:46,204 --> 00:29:47,455 -Krishna Consciousness. 522 00:29:47,497 --> 00:29:49,707 It is one of many groups that have grown 523 00:29:49,749 --> 00:29:54,045 with the big religious revival among many young Americans. 524 00:29:54,087 --> 00:29:57,673 -The rapid expansion of the movement came 525 00:29:57,715 --> 00:30:01,511 as Prabhupada started pushing book production. 526 00:30:01,552 --> 00:30:06,057 Literally millions of books were going out. 527 00:30:06,099 --> 00:30:10,812 We opened up temples in London, Paris, Amsterdam. 528 00:30:10,853 --> 00:30:15,024 Chanting in all the major cities in the world. 529 00:30:15,066 --> 00:30:16,734 -There was a time earlier 530 00:30:16,776 --> 00:30:19,362 where everyone knew Prabhupada, Prabhupada knew everyone. 531 00:30:19,404 --> 00:30:21,406 But the movement grew so fast 532 00:30:21,447 --> 00:30:23,699 that it was just humanly impossible. 533 00:30:23,741 --> 00:30:28,079 Prabhupada could no longer really keep track of everything. 534 00:30:28,121 --> 00:30:31,624 And Kirtanananda was extremely competitive. 535 00:30:31,666 --> 00:30:34,168 He wanted to build Prabhupada's palace. 536 00:30:34,210 --> 00:30:38,589 ** 537 00:30:38,631 --> 00:30:40,842 -Keith Ham was going to build New Vrindaban 538 00:30:40,883 --> 00:30:43,052 into the center of Krishna Consciousness 539 00:30:43,094 --> 00:30:44,721 in the United States. 540 00:30:44,762 --> 00:30:47,598 The goal was to build a huge palace 541 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,225 called the Palace of Gold. 542 00:30:49,267 --> 00:30:51,477 Kirtanananda would always say that it was going to be 543 00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:53,187 where Prabhupada lived, but he had to know 544 00:30:53,229 --> 00:30:55,440 that Prabhupada likely would not be alive 545 00:30:55,481 --> 00:30:57,859 by the time that the palace was finished 546 00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:00,194 and that was going to be his palace 547 00:31:00,236 --> 00:31:03,239 and he would be the ruler. 548 00:31:03,281 --> 00:31:06,451 -Kirtanananda just wanted labor. He wanted workers. 549 00:31:06,492 --> 00:31:08,119 So it was understood 550 00:31:08,161 --> 00:31:11,080 that if you had someone in the temple 551 00:31:11,122 --> 00:31:13,249 who was a little crazy, 552 00:31:13,291 --> 00:31:17,086 you would give them a bus ticket to New Vrindaban. 553 00:31:19,630 --> 00:31:21,215 -As the community grew, 554 00:31:21,257 --> 00:31:25,428 I started building a database of who was there. 555 00:31:25,470 --> 00:31:27,889 And one of the people that caught my attention early on 556 00:31:27,930 --> 00:31:32,018 was a man named Thomas Drescher. 557 00:31:32,060 --> 00:31:36,189 -There was just this strange aura about him. 558 00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:41,986 You'd just get this feeling that something's just not right. 559 00:31:43,154 --> 00:31:46,407 -He served in Vietnam. He had two Purple Hearts. 560 00:31:46,449 --> 00:31:48,910 He was no stranger to violence. 561 00:31:48,951 --> 00:31:51,037 Drescher had a criminal record 562 00:31:51,079 --> 00:31:53,039 before he ever came to New Vrindaban. 563 00:31:53,081 --> 00:31:56,918 A lot of situations where violence was used. 564 00:31:56,959 --> 00:31:59,379 And he clearly was a very unusual person 565 00:31:59,420 --> 00:32:01,506 to be at a Hare Krishna farm. 566 00:32:36,582 --> 00:32:38,710 It wasn't too long before we started having 567 00:32:38,751 --> 00:32:41,379 some incidents out there. 568 00:32:41,421 --> 00:32:43,965 -What were the circumstances that led to the shooting? 569 00:32:44,006 --> 00:32:46,551 -I was giving a class in our temple, 570 00:32:46,592 --> 00:32:50,263 and I heard these mutterings that men had returned with guns 571 00:32:50,304 --> 00:32:52,849 and they said they were looking for their daughter 572 00:32:52,890 --> 00:32:55,017 who supposedly came here. 573 00:32:55,059 --> 00:32:58,688 She was underage, and they wanted her back. 574 00:32:58,730 --> 00:33:00,690 -Everybody denied that his daughter was there, 575 00:33:00,732 --> 00:33:02,233 but the next morning they came back 576 00:33:02,275 --> 00:33:04,193 and one of them was carrying a shotgun. 577 00:33:04,235 --> 00:33:06,904 There was a scuffle, and the shotgun went off. 578 00:33:06,946 --> 00:33:09,490 The two men fled without the girl. 579 00:33:09,532 --> 00:33:11,367 Myself and two deputies showed up, 580 00:33:11,409 --> 00:33:13,703 and we were trying to make sense of what had happened out there. 581 00:33:13,745 --> 00:33:16,581 There were three or four devotees who had minor injuries. 582 00:33:16,622 --> 00:33:19,208 I think only one went to the hospital. 583 00:33:19,250 --> 00:33:22,253 When the media showed up, Keith Ham -- 584 00:33:22,295 --> 00:33:25,339 he told a completely different story than what had happened. 585 00:33:25,381 --> 00:33:27,133 -How many people came back today? 586 00:33:27,175 --> 00:33:29,886 -I think there were five, possibly six. 587 00:33:29,927 --> 00:33:32,055 -What were they armed with? 588 00:33:32,096 --> 00:33:36,893 -Shotguns. Pistols. Semiautomatic rifle. 589 00:33:36,934 --> 00:33:39,020 -He told a story about a place 590 00:33:39,062 --> 00:33:40,772 being invaded by a motorcycle gang 591 00:33:40,813 --> 00:33:42,732 and how he risked his life 592 00:33:42,774 --> 00:33:44,734 to fight for -- to protect the altar. 593 00:33:44,776 --> 00:33:47,153 And the guns were flying. There were machine guns. 594 00:33:47,195 --> 00:33:49,906 It just went into a crazy exaggeration. 595 00:33:49,947 --> 00:33:51,908 -Do you think they were shooting to kill anyone? 596 00:33:51,949 --> 00:33:54,702 -They didn't care. They looked absolutely crazy. 597 00:33:54,744 --> 00:33:56,746 -Kirtanananda Swami had his own script 598 00:33:56,788 --> 00:33:58,247 that he was going to go by, 599 00:33:58,289 --> 00:34:03,419 and the devotees were just players in the game. 600 00:34:03,461 --> 00:34:06,047 -It was very traumatizing. I wasn't there, so I can't -- 601 00:34:06,089 --> 00:34:08,633 I'm just going from what he said, but... 602 00:34:08,674 --> 00:34:12,261 They, you know, shot some devotees, 603 00:34:12,303 --> 00:34:15,056 and they took Kirtanananda up a hill and said, 604 00:34:15,098 --> 00:34:16,307 "We're going to shoot you." 605 00:34:16,349 --> 00:34:18,476 -It was just absurd to claim that, 606 00:34:18,518 --> 00:34:21,396 but he would claim that for decades to come -- 607 00:34:21,437 --> 00:34:24,190 he was the man who stood up to a motorcycle gang 608 00:34:24,232 --> 00:34:27,402 and defended the Krishna religion. 609 00:34:27,443 --> 00:34:28,945 -The Hare Krishna members 610 00:34:28,986 --> 00:34:32,240 are now making sandbag bunkers to protect themselves, 611 00:34:32,281 --> 00:34:34,450 and they say that they will take steps 612 00:34:34,492 --> 00:34:37,412 to prevent a further occurrence of this type. 613 00:34:37,453 --> 00:34:39,205 -That was a turning point. 614 00:34:39,247 --> 00:34:41,666 Because that's when New Vrindaban really started 615 00:34:41,707 --> 00:34:43,167 to become militant. 616 00:34:43,209 --> 00:34:46,212 Like, they armed themselves. They had target practice. 617 00:34:46,254 --> 00:34:48,297 And it was kind of like, "Never again. 618 00:34:48,339 --> 00:34:51,300 The next time they come, we'll blow their heads off." 619 00:34:51,342 --> 00:34:53,136 ** 620 00:34:53,177 --> 00:34:54,971 -Keith Ham -- he had to convince them 621 00:34:55,012 --> 00:34:57,223 that he was the savior, not their parents, 622 00:34:57,265 --> 00:35:00,476 not the police, not the outside world. 623 00:35:00,518 --> 00:35:02,979 Because you have to convince your followers 624 00:35:03,020 --> 00:35:05,398 that you are the safety 625 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,776 and the rest of the world is the danger. 626 00:35:09,861 --> 00:35:13,823 Thomas Drescher found a place in the Hare Krishna scripture 627 00:35:13,865 --> 00:35:15,241 that said he could exist 628 00:35:15,283 --> 00:35:18,161 as a personal guard to Kirtanananda. 629 00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:40,141 -I think that was a key historical moment. 630 00:35:40,183 --> 00:35:44,020 Because you have a narcissistic leader, 631 00:35:44,062 --> 00:35:46,272 but now it's becoming more militant. 632 00:35:51,611 --> 00:35:53,029 ** 633 00:35:53,071 --> 00:35:55,490 -In the '70s, we were getting people 634 00:35:55,531 --> 00:35:57,075 from all walks of life. 635 00:35:57,116 --> 00:35:59,243 Up in the Bay Area, 636 00:35:59,285 --> 00:36:02,205 Steve Jobs was working out of his garage 637 00:36:02,246 --> 00:36:04,665 as a starving technician, 638 00:36:04,707 --> 00:36:06,459 and he would come to the temple. 639 00:36:06,501 --> 00:36:10,380 So people are joining. People are having a good time. 640 00:36:22,225 --> 00:36:24,519 Prabhupada brought the enthusiasm 641 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,065 to make the world a better place for everybody. 642 00:36:29,107 --> 00:36:33,152 But as much as he would stress growth, 643 00:36:33,194 --> 00:36:38,074 he would stress that, "I'm only here temporarily." 644 00:36:38,116 --> 00:36:42,203 He went through a period of being physically ill. 645 00:36:42,245 --> 00:36:44,414 His passing was imminent. 646 00:37:13,651 --> 00:37:16,028 -We'd been taught from the beginning 647 00:37:16,070 --> 00:37:18,281 he wouldn't always be with us. 648 00:37:20,283 --> 00:37:23,745 But it didn't take away the pain. 649 00:37:23,786 --> 00:37:25,997 -Everyone was always wondering 650 00:37:26,038 --> 00:37:29,250 what happens after Prabhupada passes away. 651 00:37:29,292 --> 00:37:34,464 It was only when we actually saw him gone 652 00:37:34,505 --> 00:37:37,133 that the full weight of what happened -- 653 00:37:37,175 --> 00:37:39,886 that we've lost the charismatic leader. 654 00:37:39,927 --> 00:37:43,056 And what do we do now? 655 00:37:43,097 --> 00:37:44,891 On his deathbed, he said, 656 00:37:44,932 --> 00:37:49,020 "I will name some of you to be gurus." 657 00:37:49,062 --> 00:37:50,605 ** 658 00:37:50,646 --> 00:37:53,024 When we take that mantle of guru 659 00:37:53,066 --> 00:37:55,234 and you have your own disciples, 660 00:37:55,276 --> 00:37:59,030 there's this struggle within yourself. 661 00:37:59,072 --> 00:38:01,449 "Do I have enough spiritual resources 662 00:38:01,491 --> 00:38:04,160 to try to take on that mantle?" 663 00:38:04,202 --> 00:38:06,204 That's a learning curve 664 00:38:06,245 --> 00:38:11,459 that Prabhupada took his whole life to get to. 665 00:38:12,502 --> 00:38:14,921 -He was really worried about ISKCON 666 00:38:14,962 --> 00:38:16,172 just sort of disintegrating 667 00:38:16,214 --> 00:38:18,174 because when his guru left this world, 668 00:38:18,216 --> 00:38:21,469 the movement that he joined did disintegrate, 669 00:38:21,511 --> 00:38:23,596 and it disintegrated precisely because 670 00:38:23,638 --> 00:38:25,932 they hadn't worked out the management 671 00:38:25,973 --> 00:38:27,183 and people wanted power. 672 00:38:27,225 --> 00:38:28,893 So Prabhupada went through this trauma 673 00:38:28,935 --> 00:38:32,313 of seeing a spiritual movement to which he dedicated his life 674 00:38:32,355 --> 00:38:34,482 just self-destruct. 675 00:38:35,942 --> 00:38:39,278 And he was determined that that wouldn't happen with ISKCON. 676 00:38:45,368 --> 00:38:47,245 I literally got a letter in the mail, 677 00:38:47,286 --> 00:38:50,832 and suddenly I was a guru. 678 00:38:50,873 --> 00:38:53,334 I didn't feel I was ready. 679 00:38:53,376 --> 00:38:56,170 I was 29 years old. 680 00:38:56,212 --> 00:38:59,298 Now suddenly God on Earth. 681 00:39:01,342 --> 00:39:04,512 -You couldn't help at that time to wonder 682 00:39:04,554 --> 00:39:07,765 why some were picked and some weren't picked. 683 00:39:10,059 --> 00:39:12,228 -You have these young, immature people 684 00:39:12,270 --> 00:39:14,272 suddenly acquiring 685 00:39:14,313 --> 00:39:17,150 this absolute power over other human beings. 686 00:39:17,191 --> 00:39:21,362 ** 687 00:39:21,404 --> 00:39:24,323 Always reminds me of this "Three Stooges" episode 688 00:39:24,365 --> 00:39:26,242 where Moe played Hitler with a little mustache, 689 00:39:26,284 --> 00:39:28,035 and they're, like, dividing the globe up. 690 00:39:28,077 --> 00:39:29,996 -I am the winner! The world belongs to me! 691 00:39:30,037 --> 00:39:32,373 Give it to me! -No, it's mine! 692 00:39:32,415 --> 00:39:35,543 -So we, the ones that he named, 693 00:39:35,585 --> 00:39:41,549 tried as we best knew how to be a living teacher. 694 00:39:41,591 --> 00:39:45,344 But there was philosophical infighting, 695 00:39:45,386 --> 00:39:47,430 you could call it. 696 00:39:49,182 --> 00:39:51,559 -This world is a sick place. 697 00:39:51,601 --> 00:39:54,687 This is the place of the fallen, or the conditioned souls. 698 00:39:54,729 --> 00:39:58,274 And it is the place for reformation. 699 00:39:58,316 --> 00:40:03,029 -We were left to deal with an ego 700 00:40:03,071 --> 00:40:05,031 having no restrictor plates on it 701 00:40:05,073 --> 00:40:08,409 because Prabhupada was gone. 702 00:40:08,451 --> 00:40:11,329 Kirtanananda saw himself as the center of everything, 703 00:40:11,370 --> 00:40:14,207 and then Prabhupada became something 704 00:40:14,248 --> 00:40:17,293 that he could use 705 00:40:17,335 --> 00:40:20,046 for his own self-aggrandizement. 706 00:40:20,088 --> 00:40:25,593 ** 707 00:40:25,635 --> 00:40:27,178 -Way back in the early days, 708 00:40:27,220 --> 00:40:30,348 Kirtanananda was down-to-earth 709 00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:32,308 and more like one of us. 710 00:40:32,350 --> 00:40:33,851 And as time went on, 711 00:40:33,893 --> 00:40:39,273 he became more and more intense and authoritarian. 712 00:40:39,315 --> 00:40:42,402 -Kirtanananda absolutely had this vision. 713 00:40:42,443 --> 00:40:45,363 You know, he was the one. He was the messiah. 714 00:40:45,405 --> 00:40:46,864 "You're not gonna save the world. 715 00:40:46,906 --> 00:40:48,533 I'm gonna save the world." 716 00:41:01,129 --> 00:41:04,382 Kirtanananda, who was triggered by all this power -- 717 00:41:04,424 --> 00:41:08,010 he not only has these dark ideas in his head, 718 00:41:08,052 --> 00:41:12,348 but he actually has the power to carry out his fantasies. 719 00:41:12,390 --> 00:41:15,476 [ Telephone rings ] 720 00:41:15,518 --> 00:41:18,980 -A few years later, devotees would call and say, 721 00:41:19,021 --> 00:41:21,899 "We're treated badly, and if you try to leave, 722 00:41:21,941 --> 00:41:26,028 Kirtanananda won't give you your possessions or wallets." 723 00:41:26,070 --> 00:41:29,407 You might even get beat up if you say, "I'm going to leave." 724 00:41:29,449 --> 00:41:31,451 And there were some bullies on the farm 725 00:41:31,492 --> 00:41:33,661 that would push them around. 726 00:41:33,703 --> 00:41:36,122 And the one in particular that they talked about 727 00:41:36,164 --> 00:41:38,249 was Thomas Drescher. 728 00:41:38,291 --> 00:41:40,293 And one of the people that didn't like him 729 00:41:40,334 --> 00:41:42,545 was Charles St. Denis. 730 00:41:43,963 --> 00:41:48,676 -My father was Chakradara. Charles St. Denis by birth. 731 00:41:48,718 --> 00:41:52,889 And he was a very tall man, 732 00:41:52,930 --> 00:41:54,682 very jolly, very cheerful. 733 00:41:54,724 --> 00:41:57,518 At the same time, very straightforward, fearless. 734 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,563 Because he had a broken family, 735 00:42:00,605 --> 00:42:03,191 he had left home at a quite young age. 736 00:42:03,232 --> 00:42:05,276 I think my father was 17, 18 737 00:42:05,318 --> 00:42:08,279 when he became involved with the Krishnas. 738 00:42:08,321 --> 00:42:11,699 -He was very charismatic. People liked him. 739 00:42:11,741 --> 00:42:14,952 He was the light in the community. 740 00:42:14,994 --> 00:42:17,163 -A hard worker. 741 00:42:17,205 --> 00:42:19,832 He was just so capable. 742 00:42:19,874 --> 00:42:22,418 There was no way a leader could really avoid 743 00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:25,630 using him and relying on him. 744 00:42:25,671 --> 00:42:29,550 Keith Ham would always drive over in his Land Cruiser, 745 00:42:29,592 --> 00:42:32,345 and my father would sit in the car with him, 746 00:42:32,387 --> 00:42:34,097 and they'd be doing their, you know, 747 00:42:34,138 --> 00:42:36,099 managerial talk or whatever it was, you know? 748 00:42:36,140 --> 00:42:39,769 And I was like, "Oh, my dad's pretty important here, yeah." 749 00:42:39,811 --> 00:42:41,646 Up until then, it's just this beautiful, 750 00:42:41,687 --> 00:42:44,607 wonderful place and experience. 751 00:42:44,649 --> 00:42:48,736 And suddenly everything changed for me. 752 00:42:48,778 --> 00:42:50,405 -So, there was a point there 753 00:42:50,446 --> 00:42:53,741 where my dad got a big inheritance. 754 00:42:53,783 --> 00:42:55,785 And instead of giving this money to the temple, 755 00:42:55,827 --> 00:42:57,662 they used that money to buy a big -- 756 00:42:57,703 --> 00:43:01,874 I think it was 40-acres property next to the community. 757 00:43:01,916 --> 00:43:04,252 That was kind of the beginning of the resentment 758 00:43:04,293 --> 00:43:07,088 with Kirtanananda and my dad. 759 00:43:07,130 --> 00:43:09,465 Our dad keeping all that money, 760 00:43:09,507 --> 00:43:11,259 Kirtanananda didn't like that. 761 00:43:11,300 --> 00:43:13,428 He didn't like that individuality. 762 00:43:13,469 --> 00:43:15,763 He wanted, you know, soldiers. 763 00:43:15,805 --> 00:43:19,767 He wanted people that are going to be working for him. 764 00:43:19,809 --> 00:43:22,770 -Where they were located was on the fringe 765 00:43:22,812 --> 00:43:25,022 of the physical area of the community. 766 00:43:25,064 --> 00:43:28,067 My father and a lot of the other devotees 767 00:43:28,109 --> 00:43:31,654 who lived in that area may have kept long hair. 768 00:43:31,696 --> 00:43:35,533 Some of them drank. Some of them smoked marijuana. 769 00:43:35,575 --> 00:43:37,660 -I ran into him once in a convenience store 770 00:43:37,702 --> 00:43:40,496 when he was buying a case of Molson Ale. 771 00:43:40,538 --> 00:43:42,790 I said, "Chuck, what -- Is this for the Lord?" 772 00:43:42,832 --> 00:43:46,044 And he said, "It is tonight." 773 00:43:46,085 --> 00:43:50,423 Charles made an enemy of the Swami. 774 00:43:50,465 --> 00:43:52,300 So there was more than one incident 775 00:43:52,341 --> 00:43:55,803 where Swami would see Charles St. Denis 776 00:43:55,845 --> 00:43:58,056 and he would talk to him about his conduct. 777 00:43:58,097 --> 00:44:01,934 He called out St. Denis for not following the tenets 778 00:44:01,976 --> 00:44:04,854 and not wearing the clothes, not shaving his head, 779 00:44:04,896 --> 00:44:07,815 drinking beer, smoking marijuana, et cetera. 780 00:44:07,857 --> 00:44:10,651 And at one point, he did that in front of people 781 00:44:10,693 --> 00:44:13,780 where Charles St. Denis called him a hypocrite. 782 00:44:13,821 --> 00:44:16,491 -We had these things called darshans, 783 00:44:16,532 --> 00:44:18,409 and "darshan" literally means "vision," 784 00:44:18,451 --> 00:44:19,869 but it was a term that was used 785 00:44:19,911 --> 00:44:23,748 when we would have time, personal time with the guru. 786 00:44:23,790 --> 00:44:26,167 And during one of these darshans, 787 00:44:26,209 --> 00:44:30,880 my father publicly accused Kirtanananda. 788 00:44:30,922 --> 00:44:33,424 -Charles St. Denis called him a hypocrite. 789 00:44:33,466 --> 00:44:35,593 "You've collected all this money. 790 00:44:35,635 --> 00:44:38,763 You drive around in a stretch Cadillac limousine. 791 00:44:38,805 --> 00:44:40,973 But I know what your behavior is. 792 00:44:41,015 --> 00:44:42,433 Many know your behavior. 793 00:44:42,475 --> 00:44:45,019 You're the pot calling the kettle black." 794 00:44:45,061 --> 00:44:46,729 ** 795 00:44:46,771 --> 00:44:48,564 What St. Denis was referring to 796 00:44:48,606 --> 00:44:51,025 was that there was a constant rumor 797 00:44:51,067 --> 00:44:55,571 that Kirtanananda Swami was pretty sexually active 798 00:44:55,613 --> 00:44:59,325 with some of the men on the farm. 799 00:44:59,367 --> 00:45:03,246 -There was a number of laborers who were brought there to work. 800 00:45:03,287 --> 00:45:05,706 My father had heard -- 801 00:45:05,748 --> 00:45:07,750 And maybe he observed something. I don't know. 802 00:45:07,792 --> 00:45:10,294 But he was definitely speaking publicly. 803 00:45:10,336 --> 00:45:13,965 He said Kirtanananda was having sex with these workers 804 00:45:14,006 --> 00:45:19,011 while still playing this role of being a valid, celibate guru. 805 00:45:19,053 --> 00:45:23,057 -Sannyasi is sort of like the spiritual leader in the society. 806 00:45:23,099 --> 00:45:27,729 It's sort of like a Catholic monk where you're celibate. 807 00:45:27,770 --> 00:45:29,939 -He made a confrontation, 808 00:45:29,981 --> 00:45:34,152 pointing to hypocrisy like a double personality. 809 00:45:35,987 --> 00:45:39,615 My father complaining directly and publicly 810 00:45:39,657 --> 00:45:42,785 about Kirtanananda's immoral activities 811 00:45:42,827 --> 00:45:44,746 definitely created a large rift 812 00:45:44,787 --> 00:45:47,039 between them from that time on. 813 00:46:05,391 --> 00:46:08,102 -Swami Kirtanananda, with all of his obedient devotees, 814 00:46:08,144 --> 00:46:11,647 was not going to tolerate that kind of disrespect, 815 00:46:11,689 --> 00:46:13,524 and that might have been something that helped Swami 816 00:46:13,566 --> 00:46:17,695 make the decision that, "I want St. Denis taken care of." 817 00:46:22,575 --> 00:46:30,792 ** 818 00:46:30,833 --> 00:46:32,752 -Keith Ham gets credit for altering 819 00:46:32,794 --> 00:46:34,128 a lot of people's lives, 820 00:46:34,170 --> 00:46:35,922 but most of those people were the devotees 821 00:46:35,963 --> 00:46:38,299 who followed him around and ended up committing crimes 822 00:46:38,341 --> 00:46:41,677 and having crimes committed against them. 823 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:46,849 And one of those people was a devotee named Dan Reid. 824 00:46:48,476 --> 00:46:51,312 Dan Reid was a bookkeeper. He was a little guy. 825 00:46:51,354 --> 00:46:54,315 He was kind of a mousy guy, but he was very quiet. 826 00:46:54,357 --> 00:46:58,486 I mean, he didn't have a great physical presence. 827 00:46:58,528 --> 00:47:02,323 -Dan Reid, Daruka, was my father's friend, 828 00:47:02,365 --> 00:47:04,951 and his eldest son was my best friend. 829 00:47:04,992 --> 00:47:06,494 Our families were very friendly, 830 00:47:06,536 --> 00:47:09,831 knew each other very well, spent time together often. 831 00:47:09,872 --> 00:47:13,167 My father's relationship with Daruka, Dan Reid, 832 00:47:13,209 --> 00:47:15,169 was complicated. 833 00:47:15,211 --> 00:47:19,215 His wife and my father had an affair. 834 00:47:19,257 --> 00:47:21,926 I had my firsthand experience of that fact 835 00:47:21,968 --> 00:47:25,471 when me and my father were driving around. 836 00:47:25,513 --> 00:47:29,058 My father parked his Bronco up top of this hill 837 00:47:29,100 --> 00:47:31,352 and put me to sleep there. 838 00:47:31,394 --> 00:47:34,522 When I woke up, I woke up because the car was shaking, 839 00:47:34,564 --> 00:47:38,526 and it was, like, my dad and her on the hood of the car. 840 00:47:38,568 --> 00:47:39,819 You know, what did I know? 841 00:47:39,861 --> 00:47:43,364 But I'm sure you know. [ Chuckles ] 842 00:47:43,406 --> 00:47:48,369 Daruka was claiming that my father had raped his wife. 843 00:47:48,411 --> 00:47:52,373 Everybody knew that it wasn't rape. 844 00:47:53,583 --> 00:47:55,209 -But Dan Reid clung to the idea 845 00:47:55,251 --> 00:47:57,545 that he forced her to have sex with him. 846 00:47:57,587 --> 00:47:59,213 And that wasn't true. 847 00:47:59,255 --> 00:48:02,508 Dan Reid, he couldn't deal with it. 848 00:48:31,162 --> 00:48:34,248 -So, it was late in the night. 849 00:48:34,290 --> 00:48:38,419 My father got a call from Dan Reid 850 00:48:38,461 --> 00:48:41,672 to come out to his house and have a good time. 851 00:48:41,714 --> 00:48:44,133 ** 852 00:48:44,175 --> 00:48:46,052 -Dan Reid called and said, 853 00:48:46,094 --> 00:48:48,679 "Chakra, let's bury the hatchet." 854 00:48:48,721 --> 00:48:50,640 ** 855 00:48:50,681 --> 00:48:52,558 Chakra had told his wife, 856 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,187 "I'm going to Dan Reid's place and we're gonna drink some beer 857 00:48:56,229 --> 00:48:58,773 and, you know, smoke some weed." 858 00:48:58,815 --> 00:49:01,317 ** 859 00:49:01,359 --> 00:49:03,903 Charles St. Denis was very well-known as somebody 860 00:49:03,945 --> 00:49:06,114 who always had a little bit of marijuana 861 00:49:06,155 --> 00:49:08,825 and didn't mind selling it. 862 00:49:08,866 --> 00:49:10,368 Charles St. Denis didn't know 863 00:49:10,410 --> 00:49:12,453 as he drove up to Dan Reid's house 864 00:49:12,495 --> 00:49:15,498 that Thomas Drescher was also in there. 865 00:49:15,540 --> 00:49:20,920 ** 866 00:49:20,962 --> 00:49:22,380 Well, the next day, 867 00:49:22,422 --> 00:49:27,176 his wife realized that Chakra wasn't there. 868 00:49:27,218 --> 00:49:30,972 She went down to Reid's house and asked Dan Reid, 869 00:49:31,013 --> 00:49:33,182 "Have you seen Chakra?" 870 00:49:33,224 --> 00:49:36,102 He said, "I don't know. Why would you ask me? 871 00:49:36,144 --> 00:49:38,354 I don't know where he is." 872 00:49:39,689 --> 00:49:42,400 She didn't know what happened, and that's when eventually 873 00:49:42,442 --> 00:49:44,485 she would come to the sheriff's department 874 00:49:44,527 --> 00:49:46,946 and report that her husband was missing. 875 00:49:46,988 --> 00:49:50,074 ** 876 00:49:50,116 --> 00:49:52,952 St. Denis was nowhere to be found, 877 00:49:52,994 --> 00:49:54,871 and she knew that something was wrong. 878 00:49:54,912 --> 00:49:56,414 [ Telephone rings ] 879 00:49:56,456 --> 00:50:00,209 One afternoon, about 3:30, I got a phone call. 880 00:50:00,251 --> 00:50:02,879 It was Deborah Gere. She was crying. 881 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:04,839 And she said, "Sergeant Westfall, 882 00:50:04,881 --> 00:50:06,841 Chakra is gone. 883 00:50:06,883 --> 00:50:09,343 Something's happened to him. 884 00:50:09,385 --> 00:50:11,179 I'm afraid that Thomas Drescher 885 00:50:11,220 --> 00:50:15,266 may have done something to my husband." 886 00:50:15,308 --> 00:50:18,352 And I believed her, but I knew as she walked out the door -- 887 00:50:18,394 --> 00:50:20,521 One of the other deputies walked into my office 888 00:50:20,563 --> 00:50:22,315 and he said, "What was that about?" 889 00:50:22,356 --> 00:50:25,109 I said, "I think that's a widow right there." 890 00:50:28,488 --> 00:50:30,865 -We're up in the mountains of West Virginia. 891 00:50:30,907 --> 00:50:34,452 Once Kirtanananda got you out there, you weren't leaving. 892 00:50:34,494 --> 00:50:38,039 He went from being one of the gurus 893 00:50:38,081 --> 00:50:40,541 that were practicing what Prabhupada taught... 894 00:50:40,583 --> 00:50:43,878 to turning it into his own religion. 895 00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:45,546 -They needed money for New Vrindaban. 896 00:50:45,588 --> 00:50:48,800 They needed money to keep Kirtanananda's lifestyle up. 897 00:50:48,841 --> 00:50:51,219 -To build a city on the hill, 898 00:50:51,260 --> 00:50:53,888 they use sort of ruthless means. 899 00:50:53,930 --> 00:50:55,807 ** 900 00:50:55,848 --> 00:50:58,601 -A lot of us went through hell. 901 00:50:58,643 --> 00:51:03,731 We sacrificed a lot. Especially women. 902 00:51:03,773 --> 00:51:05,441 -I finally just decided, 903 00:51:05,483 --> 00:51:08,569 "My kids are going to have Mommy dead, 904 00:51:08,611 --> 00:51:11,364 Mommy in an insane asylum somewhere, 905 00:51:11,406 --> 00:51:14,242 or Mommy out trying to make it in the world 906 00:51:14,283 --> 00:51:16,285 to give them a safe home." 907 00:51:16,327 --> 00:51:19,038 ** 908 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:23,084 -Just like the Mob. You can't have a snitch. 909 00:51:23,126 --> 00:51:25,503 [ Gunshots ] 910 00:51:25,545 --> 00:51:34,637 ** 911 00:51:34,679 --> 00:51:43,521 **