1 00:00:12,221 --> 00:00:14,182 [ Ominous music plays ] 2 00:00:14,223 --> 00:00:17,518 ** 3 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,063 -My father told my mother about 4 00:00:20,104 --> 00:00:23,858 these ongoing dreams he was having. 5 00:00:28,112 --> 00:00:32,700 He would be under a starry sky 6 00:00:32,742 --> 00:00:37,246 at a campfire 7 00:00:37,288 --> 00:00:40,750 with an elder person. 8 00:00:40,792 --> 00:00:45,880 And this elder wise person told him, 9 00:00:45,922 --> 00:00:49,717 "You're going to be murdered 10 00:00:49,759 --> 00:00:53,930 by enemies in the guise of friends." 11 00:00:53,971 --> 00:00:56,307 [ Gunshot ] 12 00:00:57,809 --> 00:01:01,187 And this elder wise person 13 00:01:01,229 --> 00:01:03,815 would pick up pieces of wood 14 00:01:03,856 --> 00:01:06,526 from the stack of wood he had there 15 00:01:06,567 --> 00:01:08,611 and place those into the fire. 16 00:01:08,653 --> 00:01:16,494 ** 17 00:01:16,536 --> 00:01:18,955 And every time he would have this dream again, 18 00:01:18,996 --> 00:01:21,541 there was less wood. 19 00:01:21,582 --> 00:01:23,292 And it was understood by my father 20 00:01:23,334 --> 00:01:26,629 that once that wood would be all burned... 21 00:01:26,671 --> 00:01:34,429 ** 22 00:01:34,470 --> 00:01:36,222 ...his time would be up. 23 00:01:36,264 --> 00:01:43,104 ** 24 00:01:43,146 --> 00:01:45,022 He knew. 25 00:01:45,064 --> 00:01:50,778 ** 26 00:01:50,820 --> 00:01:56,367 ** 27 00:01:56,409 --> 00:01:58,870 [ Indistinct chanting ] 28 00:01:58,911 --> 00:02:08,129 ** 29 00:02:08,171 --> 00:02:09,922 -May I ask you how you feel 30 00:02:09,964 --> 00:02:12,884 when someone bows down on the ground in front of you? 31 00:02:12,925 --> 00:02:15,178 -That is not meant for me. 32 00:02:15,219 --> 00:02:18,014 That is meant for -- for God. 33 00:02:18,056 --> 00:02:21,225 -The new Vrindaban, Kirtanananda, Keith Ham -- 34 00:02:21,267 --> 00:02:22,769 he wanted to make New Vrindaban 35 00:02:22,810 --> 00:02:24,812 the glory of the Hare Krishna movement. 36 00:02:24,854 --> 00:02:27,690 He was a big guru, you know. He was God on Earth. 37 00:02:27,732 --> 00:02:31,194 You know, there's a certain dictator psychology. 38 00:02:31,235 --> 00:02:35,239 It was never...normal. 39 00:02:36,657 --> 00:02:40,578 -Kirtanananda, or Keith Ham -- 40 00:02:40,620 --> 00:02:44,332 God, I just remember him being larger than life. 41 00:02:44,373 --> 00:02:48,336 You lived and breathed Kirtanananda 42 00:02:48,378 --> 00:02:51,547 and serving Kirtanananda. 43 00:02:51,589 --> 00:02:54,008 That was your life. 44 00:02:54,050 --> 00:02:56,969 People just sitting at his feet, 45 00:02:57,011 --> 00:03:00,306 worshipping his feet, giving him money, 46 00:03:00,348 --> 00:03:02,725 giving him gifts. 47 00:03:02,767 --> 00:03:05,520 And I just remember looking up and just being like, 48 00:03:05,561 --> 00:03:09,524 "Oh, the man is so great. He's so wonderful. He's God." 49 00:03:12,193 --> 00:03:15,363 -He went from being one of the gurus 50 00:03:15,405 --> 00:03:18,074 that were practicing what Prabhupada taught 51 00:03:18,116 --> 00:03:20,410 and getting the movement out there 52 00:03:20,451 --> 00:03:24,455 to turning it into his own religion. 53 00:03:28,543 --> 00:03:30,795 But he also chose 54 00:03:30,837 --> 00:03:36,759 a super-isolated part of the country. 55 00:03:36,801 --> 00:03:42,432 You were up in the mountains of West Virginia, 56 00:03:42,473 --> 00:03:46,602 surrounded by woods. 57 00:03:46,644 --> 00:03:48,604 Once Kirtanananda got you out there, 58 00:03:48,646 --> 00:03:52,108 once he got his clutches into you and got you out there, 59 00:03:52,150 --> 00:03:53,776 you weren't leaving. 60 00:03:53,818 --> 00:03:56,529 [ Mid-tempo music playing ] 61 00:03:56,571 --> 00:03:59,115 -If you look at political dictators, 62 00:03:59,157 --> 00:04:02,493 you can worship the state or you can say you're worshipping God, 63 00:04:02,535 --> 00:04:05,788 but there's a lot of shared psychology, I think. 64 00:04:05,830 --> 00:04:11,294 So criticizing Kirtanananda and all that was intolerable. 65 00:04:11,335 --> 00:04:12,879 It's Kirtanananda. 66 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:19,677 ** 67 00:04:19,719 --> 00:04:26,309 ** 68 00:04:26,350 --> 00:04:28,686 -My father was Chakradara, 69 00:04:28,728 --> 00:04:30,813 and Charles St. Denis by birth. 70 00:04:30,855 --> 00:04:35,610 And, yeah, he was very jolly, very cheerful, 71 00:04:35,651 --> 00:04:39,113 at the same time very straightforward, fearless. 72 00:04:39,155 --> 00:04:42,575 And he had a conflict with Kirtanananda. 73 00:04:42,617 --> 00:04:45,995 Part of his leadership position is that he's a celibate, 74 00:04:46,037 --> 00:04:47,955 he's pure, and so on. 75 00:04:47,997 --> 00:04:50,541 But my father had heard, 76 00:04:50,583 --> 00:04:53,002 and maybe he observed something -- I don't know -- 77 00:04:53,044 --> 00:04:54,796 but I know he was speaking openly 78 00:04:54,837 --> 00:04:59,008 that you may be portraying yourself to be a pure person, 79 00:04:59,050 --> 00:05:00,593 a pure devotee of Krishna, 80 00:05:00,635 --> 00:05:03,554 but you're engaged in immoral activities 81 00:05:03,596 --> 00:05:05,848 such as having sex with workers 82 00:05:05,890 --> 00:05:11,646 while still playing this role of being avowed celibate guru. 83 00:05:11,687 --> 00:05:13,856 -Chakra called him a hypocrite. 84 00:05:13,898 --> 00:05:15,691 You've collected all this money. 85 00:05:15,733 --> 00:05:18,986 You drive around in a stretch Cadillac limousine. 86 00:05:19,028 --> 00:05:23,491 Charles made an enemy of the Swami. 87 00:05:23,533 --> 00:05:25,118 His wife called me one day. 88 00:05:25,159 --> 00:05:26,411 She was crying and she said, 89 00:05:26,452 --> 00:05:30,456 "Sergeant Westfall, Chakra is gone. 90 00:05:30,498 --> 00:05:32,875 Something's happened to him. 91 00:05:32,917 --> 00:05:34,711 I'm afraid that Thomas Drescher 92 00:05:34,752 --> 00:05:37,463 may have done something to my husband." 93 00:05:37,505 --> 00:05:38,840 And I believed her. 94 00:05:38,881 --> 00:05:41,968 Thomas Drescher would be a pretty imposing, 95 00:05:42,009 --> 00:05:43,386 scary kind of guy. 96 00:05:43,428 --> 00:05:46,597 He took to the role of being a bully, and he liked it. 97 00:05:46,639 --> 00:05:49,434 And Kirtanananda -- he enjoyed having him. 98 00:05:49,475 --> 00:05:51,352 He was like his personal protection. 99 00:05:51,394 --> 00:05:55,773 But what I learned is that it all started with Dan Reid. 100 00:05:56,983 --> 00:06:01,154 -Dan Reid, Daruka, was my father's friend. 101 00:06:01,195 --> 00:06:02,822 Our families were very friendly, 102 00:06:02,864 --> 00:06:06,743 knew each other very well, spent time together often. 103 00:06:06,784 --> 00:06:11,539 My father's relationship with Dan Reid was complicated. 104 00:06:11,581 --> 00:06:14,625 His wife and my father had an affair. 105 00:06:15,835 --> 00:06:19,130 -Dan Reid suspected that his wife had had sex 106 00:06:19,172 --> 00:06:20,506 with Charles St. Denis. 107 00:06:20,548 --> 00:06:22,258 It was too much for him. 108 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:23,593 He told Kirtanananda, 109 00:06:23,634 --> 00:06:26,804 "Charles St. Denis had sex with my wife, 110 00:06:26,846 --> 00:06:28,723 and it's embarrassing for me. 111 00:06:28,765 --> 00:06:32,143 And I want you to do something about it." 112 00:06:32,185 --> 00:06:34,395 Kirtanananda told Dan Reid, 113 00:06:34,437 --> 00:06:38,858 "Get Tirtha," which was Thomas Drescher's name. 114 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:41,611 "Tell Tirtha that I told him 115 00:06:41,652 --> 00:06:43,780 to take care of Charles St. Denis." 116 00:06:43,821 --> 00:06:47,658 So Drescher went to see Kirtanananda Swami and said, 117 00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:51,412 "You want me to take care of Charles St. Denis?" 118 00:06:51,454 --> 00:06:54,207 He waved his hand and Drescher said, 119 00:06:54,248 --> 00:06:56,584 "A wave of your hand is not good enough. 120 00:06:56,626 --> 00:06:59,545 Do you want me to kill Charles St. Denis?" 121 00:06:59,587 --> 00:07:01,172 He said, "Yes." 122 00:07:03,383 --> 00:07:05,176 [ Telephone rings ] 123 00:07:05,218 --> 00:07:07,303 Dan Reid called and said, 124 00:07:07,345 --> 00:07:09,764 "Chakra, let's bury the hatchet." 125 00:07:09,806 --> 00:07:11,891 Charles St. Denis told his wife, 126 00:07:11,933 --> 00:07:14,602 "I'm going to Dan Reid's place." 127 00:07:14,644 --> 00:07:15,895 He didn't know 128 00:07:15,937 --> 00:07:18,731 that Thomas Drescher was also in there. 129 00:07:18,773 --> 00:07:20,650 And she never heard from him again. 130 00:07:20,691 --> 00:07:29,992 ** 131 00:07:30,034 --> 00:07:33,287 [ Man chanting indistinctly ] 132 00:07:36,874 --> 00:07:39,627 Well, the next day, his wife realized 133 00:07:39,669 --> 00:07:42,463 that Chakra wasn't there. 134 00:07:42,505 --> 00:07:46,259 She went down to Reid's house and asked Dan Reid, 135 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:48,761 "Have you seen Chakra?" 136 00:07:48,803 --> 00:07:52,181 And he said, "I don't know. Why would you ask me?" 137 00:07:52,223 --> 00:07:55,143 She didn't know what happened, and that's when eventually 138 00:07:55,184 --> 00:07:56,978 she would come to the sheriff's department 139 00:07:57,019 --> 00:08:01,107 and report that her husband was missing. 140 00:08:01,149 --> 00:08:04,694 She had gone to the point of hiring an airplane 141 00:08:04,736 --> 00:08:06,738 to fly over the entire community 142 00:08:06,779 --> 00:08:10,158 so she could see where his vehicle was. 143 00:08:10,199 --> 00:08:15,371 ** 144 00:08:15,413 --> 00:08:18,875 A friend of Charles' called on the phone, and he said, 145 00:08:18,916 --> 00:08:21,961 "Charles's car is sitting a block down from the house," 146 00:08:22,003 --> 00:08:25,214 but he said he hasn't -- he hasn't seen anything of -- 147 00:08:25,256 --> 00:08:26,924 of Chakra. 148 00:08:26,966 --> 00:08:28,301 We went over the vehicle. 149 00:08:28,342 --> 00:08:30,678 We didn't see any evidence of a struggle 150 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,513 or any visible evidence of blood. 151 00:08:32,555 --> 00:08:35,558 And it didn't lead us to any more of a conclusion. 152 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,810 But as I went back to my office, 153 00:08:37,852 --> 00:08:40,146 I was thinking, "This is not a good situation." 154 00:08:40,188 --> 00:08:41,814 There was a good chance we were never gonna see 155 00:08:41,856 --> 00:08:44,942 Charles St. Denis again. 156 00:08:44,984 --> 00:08:48,905 And as time went on, he didn't contact Deborah. 157 00:08:48,946 --> 00:08:52,366 No one had any contact with him. 158 00:08:52,408 --> 00:08:54,702 So I came to believe, just as Deborah did, 159 00:08:54,744 --> 00:08:56,412 that he was probably killed. 160 00:08:56,454 --> 00:09:00,792 But nobody was really listening because we didn't have a body. 161 00:09:02,794 --> 00:09:05,421 I went out to the farm over the next few days, 162 00:09:05,463 --> 00:09:07,465 and I would talk to devotees. 163 00:09:07,507 --> 00:09:08,883 Devotees who used to talk to me 164 00:09:08,925 --> 00:09:10,551 and look me in the eye would look away and say, 165 00:09:10,593 --> 00:09:12,929 "No, we think he's probably just -- he left her. 166 00:09:12,970 --> 00:09:15,098 He went to California. He's away. 167 00:09:15,139 --> 00:09:18,434 He's on some trip or something." 168 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:20,812 When I approached Dan Reid 169 00:09:20,853 --> 00:09:23,106 and asked him about the situation, 170 00:09:23,147 --> 00:09:25,108 I thought Dan Reid was gonna faint. 171 00:09:25,149 --> 00:09:27,985 His face was completely white. He was sweating. 172 00:09:28,027 --> 00:09:29,904 His hands -- he was wringing his hands. 173 00:09:29,946 --> 00:09:31,239 And I would say, "Well, where is he?" 174 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:32,740 And he would say, "I don't have any idea. 175 00:09:32,782 --> 00:09:34,033 I don't know." 176 00:09:34,075 --> 00:09:36,869 Not more than three hours after I left, 177 00:09:36,911 --> 00:09:38,413 he headed for California. 178 00:09:41,958 --> 00:09:46,129 But Kirtanananda was on the road. 179 00:09:46,170 --> 00:09:49,799 I pulled up beside him and I said, 180 00:09:49,841 --> 00:09:51,592 "Hear anything about Charles St. Denis?" 181 00:09:51,634 --> 00:09:52,969 And he said, "Charles St. Denis -- 182 00:09:53,010 --> 00:09:55,930 He's gone to California. Everybody knows that." 183 00:09:55,972 --> 00:09:58,766 And I said, "Ah, he never left here, Swami. 184 00:09:58,808 --> 00:10:00,935 He never left here." 185 00:10:03,271 --> 00:10:05,773 I think there was an undercurrent of people 186 00:10:05,815 --> 00:10:07,650 who did believe that Charles St. Denis 187 00:10:07,692 --> 00:10:10,987 had been killed by the Swami. 188 00:10:11,028 --> 00:10:13,156 I came to believe that he was probably killed 189 00:10:13,197 --> 00:10:16,451 and that Thomas Drescher had something to do with it. 190 00:10:18,745 --> 00:10:20,538 -I didn't know anything at the time, 191 00:10:20,580 --> 00:10:23,374 but there was a request that came from my mother 192 00:10:23,416 --> 00:10:26,169 for me to come to her room, 193 00:10:26,210 --> 00:10:29,005 and she didn't speak immediately. 194 00:10:29,047 --> 00:10:33,384 She took time, perhaps composing her words, 195 00:10:33,426 --> 00:10:35,678 and then kind of abruptly saying, 196 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,724 "He's gone. Your father is gone." 197 00:10:41,976 --> 00:10:44,520 She told me right there she believed 198 00:10:44,562 --> 00:10:47,065 that Dan Reid and Tirtha, Thomas Drescher, 199 00:10:47,106 --> 00:10:48,858 had killed my father. 200 00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:50,318 And even as I remember it now, 201 00:10:50,359 --> 00:10:53,446 even after years of going through this, 202 00:10:53,488 --> 00:10:55,073 it's chilling. 203 00:10:59,202 --> 00:11:02,955 And I started talking to my schoolmates about it. 204 00:11:02,997 --> 00:11:05,041 "Hey, did you know this happened to me?" 205 00:11:05,083 --> 00:11:08,252 You know, like, "Tirtha and Daruka killed my dad." 206 00:11:09,837 --> 00:11:13,299 The teachers overheard what I was saying. 207 00:11:14,967 --> 00:11:16,969 And they announced to us that 208 00:11:17,011 --> 00:11:20,973 my father had suddenly left town. 209 00:11:21,015 --> 00:11:24,769 He had gone on vacation. 210 00:11:24,811 --> 00:11:27,355 And I was confident that what my mother told me was the truth 211 00:11:27,397 --> 00:11:30,191 and I just said, "No, Tirtha and Daruka killed my father. 212 00:11:30,233 --> 00:11:32,110 I know." 213 00:11:32,151 --> 00:11:34,529 Boy, they grabbed me, 214 00:11:34,570 --> 00:11:37,573 took me into the side room, 215 00:11:37,615 --> 00:11:40,284 and beat the shit out of me. 216 00:11:40,326 --> 00:11:42,954 Slapped me, kicked me, pushed me around. 217 00:11:42,995 --> 00:11:44,330 I was crying. 218 00:11:44,372 --> 00:11:48,126 My cheeks were burning, like, real hot. 219 00:11:48,167 --> 00:11:51,504 I was arguing that, "No, they murdered my father. 220 00:11:51,546 --> 00:11:52,880 My father's dead." 221 00:11:52,922 --> 00:11:56,509 "No, he's not. He's just on vacation." 222 00:11:56,551 --> 00:12:00,263 And shook me about and threw me on the ground 223 00:12:00,304 --> 00:12:03,266 until I agreed and repeated back to them, 224 00:12:03,307 --> 00:12:05,268 "Okay, he's gone. He's just gone on vacation." 225 00:12:05,309 --> 00:12:08,438 "Say it again." "Yes, he's just on vacation." 226 00:12:08,479 --> 00:12:11,899 "Good." 227 00:12:11,941 --> 00:12:14,110 Until I got that real straight, 228 00:12:14,152 --> 00:12:17,822 they basically kept beating me. 229 00:12:17,864 --> 00:12:21,117 Before my father was killed, I wasn't afraid of anybody 230 00:12:21,159 --> 00:12:25,079 'cause my father was big and strong. 231 00:12:25,121 --> 00:12:27,665 But from that time on, it was very clear 232 00:12:27,707 --> 00:12:31,335 that I was just open game. 233 00:12:31,377 --> 00:12:38,885 ** 234 00:12:38,926 --> 00:12:40,136 [ Man chanting indistinctly ] 235 00:12:40,178 --> 00:12:42,638 -With the Charles St. Denis murder, 236 00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:47,060 nobody was really listening because we didn't have a body. 237 00:12:47,101 --> 00:12:49,312 If we go to trial without the body, 238 00:12:49,353 --> 00:12:51,189 they would be found not guilty. 239 00:12:51,230 --> 00:12:53,733 We couldn't try them again if we had a body. 240 00:12:53,775 --> 00:12:56,152 It would be double jeopardy. 241 00:12:56,194 --> 00:12:58,196 -Kirtanananda was just out of control. 242 00:12:58,237 --> 00:13:01,949 I think that led to a sort of a perfect storm brewing 243 00:13:01,991 --> 00:13:06,037 because you have a narcissistic leader, 244 00:13:06,079 --> 00:13:09,665 and therefore, to him, the end justifies the means, 245 00:13:09,707 --> 00:13:13,669 whatever it takes -- murder, whatever it takes. 246 00:13:13,711 --> 00:13:17,256 ** 247 00:13:20,802 --> 00:13:23,721 [ Man chanting indistinctly ] 248 00:13:25,139 --> 00:13:26,849 -New Vrindaban, I think, epitomized 249 00:13:26,891 --> 00:13:31,104 that messianic superiority where Kirtanananda, 250 00:13:31,145 --> 00:13:33,398 he wanted to build up New Vrindaban as almost, 251 00:13:33,439 --> 00:13:37,944 I guess, like a -- like a Hindu Vatican or something. 252 00:13:37,985 --> 00:13:40,321 -It was just -- it was beautiful. 253 00:13:40,363 --> 00:13:44,742 And I think that's what the goal was, 254 00:13:44,784 --> 00:13:50,415 for Kirtanananda to build this... 255 00:13:50,456 --> 00:13:52,333 Heaven on Earth. 256 00:13:53,626 --> 00:13:55,962 -Never expected to see anything like this 257 00:13:56,003 --> 00:13:57,380 in the hills of West Virginia. 258 00:13:57,422 --> 00:13:59,924 -Absolutely incredible. -Oh, it's fabulous. 259 00:13:59,966 --> 00:14:01,968 -I just don't know how they did it. 260 00:14:02,009 --> 00:14:04,512 -We began with four block walls, 261 00:14:04,554 --> 00:14:08,683 and then we added the terraces and fountains 262 00:14:08,725 --> 00:14:10,143 and so many things. 263 00:14:10,184 --> 00:14:11,394 The additions are still going on, 264 00:14:11,436 --> 00:14:14,397 and hopefully they'll go on eternally. 265 00:14:15,690 --> 00:14:18,276 -Kirtanananda had a lot of plans. 266 00:14:18,317 --> 00:14:22,113 He had many more plans to expand the palace area, 267 00:14:22,155 --> 00:14:25,575 you know, make a spiritual Disneyland. 268 00:14:25,616 --> 00:14:31,497 ** 269 00:14:31,539 --> 00:14:34,417 How to make gold leaf, how to, you know, build pillars, 270 00:14:34,459 --> 00:14:38,004 how to do all the things for construction to build it. 271 00:14:38,046 --> 00:14:40,173 -Srila Kirtanananda Swami says 272 00:14:40,214 --> 00:14:42,258 it's impossible to put a value on the building. 273 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:44,385 -Insurance men -- they just back off. 274 00:14:44,427 --> 00:14:50,308 No one will actually say because it's impossible to build. 275 00:14:50,349 --> 00:14:53,519 -It was a wonder of the world 276 00:14:53,561 --> 00:14:56,856 in terms of the artwork and the craftsmanship. 277 00:14:56,898 --> 00:15:00,610 At one point, it became so prominent that 278 00:15:00,651 --> 00:15:02,653 they had tens of thousands of people 279 00:15:02,695 --> 00:15:04,530 coming on tourist buses to see it. 280 00:15:04,572 --> 00:15:07,867 But then, to build a city on the hill, 281 00:15:07,909 --> 00:15:10,286 he used sort of ruthless means. 282 00:15:10,328 --> 00:15:12,163 -Hare Krishnas have been asking for money 283 00:15:12,205 --> 00:15:13,790 at airports for years now. 284 00:15:13,831 --> 00:15:16,042 Krishnas have a big operation going, 285 00:15:16,084 --> 00:15:19,420 all the money tax-free because they are a religious group. 286 00:15:19,462 --> 00:15:22,840 -The Hare Krishna philosophy of raising funds 287 00:15:22,882 --> 00:15:26,594 for the church was the term sankirtan. 288 00:15:28,888 --> 00:15:33,434 Sankirtan was essentially devotional fundraising. 289 00:15:38,356 --> 00:15:39,690 -Every time you went to an airport, 290 00:15:39,732 --> 00:15:41,734 Hare Krishna devotees would approach you 291 00:15:41,776 --> 00:15:45,321 and ask you if you'd like to have a copy of their book, 292 00:15:45,363 --> 00:15:48,783 and then they would ask for donations. 293 00:15:48,825 --> 00:15:51,202 -We were distributing millions of books, 294 00:15:51,244 --> 00:15:55,248 but we didn't own anything as individuals. 295 00:15:55,289 --> 00:15:59,252 It was foot soldiers out there selling books 296 00:15:59,293 --> 00:16:03,339 and collecting money in large quantities. 297 00:16:03,381 --> 00:16:07,260 -But Kirtanananda led for New Vrindaban 298 00:16:07,301 --> 00:16:09,345 all kinds of activities 299 00:16:09,387 --> 00:16:14,183 which are very much outside our principles. 300 00:16:14,225 --> 00:16:17,228 -Transcendental trickery. What does that mean? 301 00:16:17,270 --> 00:16:19,313 -Deceiving someone 302 00:16:19,355 --> 00:16:22,358 in any way to get a donation. 303 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,361 [ Man chanting indistinctly ] 304 00:16:31,075 --> 00:16:34,078 -At New Vrindaban, they found a way to go out, 305 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,122 collect money, and lie to people. 306 00:16:36,164 --> 00:16:39,292 These young devotees who did not look like Hare Krishna devotees 307 00:16:39,333 --> 00:16:41,627 would approach people and ask them for money 308 00:16:41,669 --> 00:16:46,466 for well-known charities like Meals on Wheels, 309 00:16:46,507 --> 00:16:49,218 Vietnam vets, schools, churches. 310 00:16:49,260 --> 00:16:51,012 They called it The Pick. 311 00:16:51,054 --> 00:16:54,348 -At New Vrindaban, sankirtan became The Pick, 312 00:16:54,390 --> 00:16:56,309 or whatever you might call it. 313 00:16:56,350 --> 00:16:58,478 Do you know why it's called The Pick? 314 00:16:58,519 --> 00:17:01,606 Because that's something that carnies do. 315 00:17:01,647 --> 00:17:04,567 It came from a word that carnies use 316 00:17:04,609 --> 00:17:09,113 when they are taking advantage of people 317 00:17:09,155 --> 00:17:11,491 or pickpocketing. 318 00:17:11,532 --> 00:17:14,619 They needed money for New Vrindaban. 319 00:17:14,660 --> 00:17:17,080 They needed money for the Palace of Gold. 320 00:17:17,121 --> 00:17:20,833 They needed money to keep Kirtanananda's lifestyle up. 321 00:17:20,875 --> 00:17:25,505 -At New Vrindaban, well, [chuckles] 322 00:17:25,546 --> 00:17:29,300 you know, the issue is they used women, 323 00:17:29,342 --> 00:17:33,137 and he worked them hard. 324 00:17:33,179 --> 00:17:34,514 -There was a group of women 325 00:17:34,555 --> 00:17:37,308 who went across the United States in vans 326 00:17:37,350 --> 00:17:40,686 selling books and collecting money. 327 00:17:40,728 --> 00:17:43,856 -Many of them would say, "I was stuck in this situation. 328 00:17:43,898 --> 00:17:45,441 It's like schizophrenia. 329 00:17:45,483 --> 00:17:48,653 I came here because I wanted a non-material lifestyle, 330 00:17:48,694 --> 00:17:52,698 and yet my duty to Krishna was to get in the back of a van 331 00:17:52,740 --> 00:17:55,701 with 15 other people and drive from place to place 332 00:17:55,743 --> 00:17:58,663 and lie to people to collect money." 333 00:17:58,704 --> 00:18:01,332 -I never determined how they figured this out, 334 00:18:01,374 --> 00:18:04,377 but the Hare Krishnas in New Vrindaban 335 00:18:04,419 --> 00:18:08,381 would make baseball caps and bumper stickers, 336 00:18:08,423 --> 00:18:11,634 major college memorabilia -- 337 00:18:11,676 --> 00:18:15,346 Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame. 338 00:18:15,388 --> 00:18:17,598 And they would send the teams out 339 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,394 on a college football game weekend, 340 00:18:21,436 --> 00:18:24,522 and the women would walk through the parking lots, 341 00:18:24,564 --> 00:18:27,900 and they would assert that this is for 342 00:18:27,942 --> 00:18:29,277 Save the Children, 343 00:18:29,318 --> 00:18:31,904 this is for lonely children in America, 344 00:18:31,946 --> 00:18:35,700 whatever they could make up, and sell this material 345 00:18:35,742 --> 00:18:39,579 which they were paying cents on the dollars for. 346 00:18:39,620 --> 00:18:43,624 They would bring in close to $1 million a weekend. 347 00:18:43,666 --> 00:18:46,377 [ Indistinct talking ] 348 00:18:46,419 --> 00:18:49,172 -We sold the heck out of those stickers. 349 00:18:49,213 --> 00:18:55,386 We had them loaded by the boxfuls in our vans, 350 00:18:55,428 --> 00:18:59,474 just every team you could think of. 351 00:18:59,515 --> 00:19:03,061 We also had generic stickers like Snoopy 352 00:19:03,102 --> 00:19:06,773 that would work for generic kind of events, 353 00:19:06,814 --> 00:19:08,441 and we'd have, like, an itinerary 354 00:19:08,483 --> 00:19:10,526 to make our way to this big event 355 00:19:10,568 --> 00:19:13,446 and work smaller things along the way. 356 00:19:13,488 --> 00:19:15,865 We went to a lot of really cool stuff, 357 00:19:15,907 --> 00:19:18,534 like Indy 500. 358 00:19:18,576 --> 00:19:20,411 The concerts were awesome. 359 00:19:20,453 --> 00:19:22,538 We had people who were drinking and doing drugs, 360 00:19:22,580 --> 00:19:27,293 so they weren't as uptight with their money. 361 00:19:27,335 --> 00:19:29,087 -Anything where there were a lot of people, 362 00:19:29,128 --> 00:19:32,340 but I was like kind of, like, not outgoing. 363 00:19:32,382 --> 00:19:35,426 So for me to be in a big crowd, I was, like, terrified. 364 00:19:35,468 --> 00:19:36,969 [ Bell rings ] 365 00:19:37,011 --> 00:19:39,722 First thing they sent me to was a Kentucky Derby. 366 00:19:39,764 --> 00:19:41,474 They said, "Oh, let's see how she does." 367 00:19:41,516 --> 00:19:43,184 Kirtanananda said that. 368 00:19:43,226 --> 00:19:44,769 And I-I really actually spent 369 00:19:44,811 --> 00:19:46,813 90% of my time in the bathroom 370 00:19:46,854 --> 00:19:50,942 crying and freaking out 'cause I was so scared. 371 00:19:50,983 --> 00:19:57,156 But against my desire, I became one of the biggest collectors. 372 00:19:57,198 --> 00:19:59,367 You know, people thought I was attractive back then, 373 00:19:59,409 --> 00:20:01,160 so I was, like, stuck, 374 00:20:01,202 --> 00:20:03,579 because even with me not wanting to do it, 375 00:20:03,621 --> 00:20:06,624 I could collect more money than the rest of them. 376 00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:10,795 But then it became to where it was, like, too much 377 00:20:10,837 --> 00:20:13,798 about making money, and, you know, we have, like, 378 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,801 things that we're supposed to follow, 379 00:20:16,843 --> 00:20:21,597 our spiritual thing every day, which we used to do. 380 00:20:21,639 --> 00:20:23,349 But then it was like, well, you know, 381 00:20:23,391 --> 00:20:24,851 you're going out and collecting money, 382 00:20:24,892 --> 00:20:26,811 so you don't have to do any of that. 383 00:20:26,853 --> 00:20:29,272 And that's when a lot of us went off the deep end 384 00:20:29,313 --> 00:20:33,234 and, you know, strayed and had all kinds of problems. 385 00:20:33,276 --> 00:20:39,532 ** 386 00:20:39,574 --> 00:20:41,200 And because of being on the road, 387 00:20:41,242 --> 00:20:44,370 I developed, you know, drinking problems. 388 00:20:44,412 --> 00:20:47,373 I mean, I just couldn't take it. 389 00:20:47,415 --> 00:20:51,461 I was actually an alcoholic before I joined the Krishnas. 390 00:20:51,502 --> 00:20:53,880 That's why my mom was so happy that I joined the Krishnas, 391 00:20:53,921 --> 00:20:58,634 because I never drank anything once I joined the temple, 392 00:20:58,676 --> 00:21:03,389 until one day when I was on sankirtan years later. 393 00:21:03,431 --> 00:21:05,183 But I was kind of, like, stuck doing it 394 00:21:05,224 --> 00:21:10,063 because the more money you made, the more you had to go out. 395 00:21:10,104 --> 00:21:12,148 But... 396 00:21:12,190 --> 00:21:14,776 Kirtanananda would have a target of how much 397 00:21:14,817 --> 00:21:17,779 he'd want to collect for a certain period of time. 398 00:21:17,820 --> 00:21:21,115 I made like a quarter of a million dollars in that year. 399 00:21:22,617 --> 00:21:24,952 [ Laughs ] Yes. 400 00:21:24,994 --> 00:21:30,833 -A good day might be around $1,000 or more per person. 401 00:21:30,875 --> 00:21:33,920 We'd have a room full of just money everywhere. 402 00:21:33,961 --> 00:21:37,924 The deposits could never be more than $10,000 403 00:21:37,965 --> 00:21:41,511 so that it wouldn't trigger the feds. 404 00:21:41,552 --> 00:21:44,263 I guess the bank just got used to us coming in 405 00:21:44,305 --> 00:21:50,937 with these $9,000 deposits every single day. 406 00:21:50,978 --> 00:21:55,942 -That was their principal fundraising organization. 407 00:21:55,983 --> 00:21:59,862 But if you weren't super successful, 408 00:21:59,904 --> 00:22:03,074 Keith Ham was quoted as saying, 409 00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:05,743 "There are three things that are better when you beat them -- 410 00:22:05,785 --> 00:22:08,538 your drum, your dog, and your wife." 411 00:22:15,962 --> 00:22:19,549 -Kirtanananda felt like the Palace of Gold 412 00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:21,426 would make him a prominent person 413 00:22:21,467 --> 00:22:25,805 because he'd be making the biggest temple in America. 414 00:22:25,847 --> 00:22:28,725 New Vrindaban became the de facto biggest community 415 00:22:28,766 --> 00:22:31,185 in ISKCON. 416 00:22:32,270 --> 00:22:35,732 -Kirtanananda exuded the feeling that, 417 00:22:35,773 --> 00:22:38,735 "I'm the chosen one 418 00:22:38,776 --> 00:22:41,863 and I hold the power." 419 00:22:41,904 --> 00:22:44,532 We didn't really like that very much 420 00:22:44,574 --> 00:22:47,618 [chuckles] as a group of leaders. 421 00:22:47,660 --> 00:22:50,747 He always, right under the surface, 422 00:22:50,788 --> 00:22:53,291 was pissing everybody off. 423 00:22:53,332 --> 00:22:56,127 It was like, "Okay, uh, Kirtanananda, 424 00:22:56,169 --> 00:22:59,839 you have your project and we have ours, you know. 425 00:22:59,881 --> 00:23:03,843 So don't get too far ahead of yourself." 426 00:23:03,885 --> 00:23:05,970 -Kirtanananda started saying things like, 427 00:23:06,012 --> 00:23:09,223 "It's my temple, it's my men, it's my money. 428 00:23:09,265 --> 00:23:10,433 I can do what I want." 429 00:23:10,475 --> 00:23:13,394 He started getting very arrogant, let's say. 430 00:23:13,436 --> 00:23:17,106 -Pretty soon, sankirtan became an incredible moneymaker. 431 00:23:17,148 --> 00:23:21,360 And the man who ran that was Dennis Gorrick. 432 00:23:21,402 --> 00:23:25,865 -In trying to figure out the hierarchy of New Vrindaban, 433 00:23:25,907 --> 00:23:29,118 Dennis was almost like an independent contractor. 434 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,748 Dennis didn't have to really partake in anything 435 00:23:33,790 --> 00:23:38,002 as long as he kept the money coming in. 436 00:23:38,044 --> 00:23:41,422 -In the parlance of criminal organizations, 437 00:23:41,464 --> 00:23:42,965 Dennis Gorrick was an earner. 438 00:23:43,007 --> 00:23:45,551 He was in charge of the main money-making operation, 439 00:23:45,593 --> 00:23:47,178 The Pick. 440 00:23:48,846 --> 00:23:53,017 -Dharmatma's Western name was Dennis Gorrick. 441 00:23:53,059 --> 00:23:57,313 Doing The Pick, this was somebody you did not cross. 442 00:23:57,355 --> 00:24:03,069 He was definitely a bully, especially towards women. 443 00:24:03,111 --> 00:24:09,826 He had this close relationship with Keith Ham, 444 00:24:09,867 --> 00:24:15,540 which gave Dennis more authority. 445 00:24:15,581 --> 00:24:17,708 -Kirtanananda -- he's your leader. 446 00:24:17,750 --> 00:24:19,877 The best analogy is gonna be the don, 447 00:24:19,919 --> 00:24:23,214 your Mafioso, right? He's the top. 448 00:24:23,256 --> 00:24:26,259 And then underneath him, you've got guys 449 00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:29,846 who are his made men, his captains. 450 00:24:29,887 --> 00:24:33,307 Dennis -- his role is to control this section, 451 00:24:33,349 --> 00:24:36,519 control the women's sankirtan, bring in the money. 452 00:24:36,561 --> 00:24:39,105 It was organized crime 453 00:24:39,147 --> 00:24:42,358 with Kirtanananda at the top. 454 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,610 -Dennis Gorrick was also ruthless 455 00:24:44,652 --> 00:24:46,904 and treated the devotees horribly. 456 00:24:46,946 --> 00:24:48,573 If they wanted off of The Pick, they would have to 457 00:24:48,614 --> 00:24:51,033 ask Dennis Gorrick, and he might slap them. 458 00:24:51,075 --> 00:24:52,869 He might shove them against the wall. 459 00:24:52,910 --> 00:24:55,621 He might tell them, "Until I tell you, 460 00:24:55,663 --> 00:24:59,041 you stay on The Pick." 461 00:24:59,083 --> 00:25:01,753 -He could basically do whatever he wanted to do, 462 00:25:01,794 --> 00:25:05,131 because money means power. 463 00:25:06,507 --> 00:25:10,887 And so Dennis could do things that were outside of the rules, 464 00:25:10,928 --> 00:25:15,808 like illicit sex with the women on his team. 465 00:25:15,850 --> 00:25:19,979 And I became one of them. 466 00:25:20,021 --> 00:25:22,732 And I -- And I did this 467 00:25:22,774 --> 00:25:25,234 knowing that it was against the rules 468 00:25:25,276 --> 00:25:28,988 and it was against our basic principles. 469 00:25:29,030 --> 00:25:32,158 He was held, in general, in such esteem 470 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,745 that I thought that if he did it, 471 00:25:35,787 --> 00:25:38,831 it was okay. 472 00:25:38,873 --> 00:25:41,209 My first conversation with Dennis Gorrick, 473 00:25:41,250 --> 00:25:45,546 he told me he knows how to please women. 474 00:25:45,588 --> 00:25:49,175 Promise them everything and give them nothing. 475 00:25:51,427 --> 00:25:53,262 -He had his own harem -- 476 00:25:53,304 --> 00:25:56,641 Multiple, I guess you would call them, wives. 477 00:25:56,682 --> 00:26:00,978 But, you know, some of the New Vrindaban marriages 478 00:26:01,020 --> 00:26:06,943 weren't based on any concept of love or companionship 479 00:26:06,984 --> 00:26:09,904 or -- it's just, you were assigned. 480 00:26:09,946 --> 00:26:14,075 And for women, your job was to serve. 481 00:26:15,493 --> 00:26:20,706 -The culture around Dennis was that if it made him happy, 482 00:26:20,748 --> 00:26:22,750 it should make me happy. 483 00:26:22,792 --> 00:26:24,168 And if I wasn't happy for him, 484 00:26:24,210 --> 00:26:27,797 there was something wrong with me. 485 00:26:27,839 --> 00:26:29,132 Th-- I can't call it anything else 486 00:26:29,173 --> 00:26:31,092 but being brainwashed. 487 00:26:31,134 --> 00:26:32,844 And rumors abounded, 488 00:26:32,885 --> 00:26:36,889 not just illicit relationships with the women on his team, 489 00:26:36,931 --> 00:26:41,185 but other women in other temples. 490 00:26:41,227 --> 00:26:43,730 Dennis was told by Keith Ham, 491 00:26:43,771 --> 00:26:47,442 "You marry one of them or you marry all of them." 492 00:26:47,483 --> 00:26:50,570 Dennis decided he would marry three of us. 493 00:26:53,865 --> 00:26:55,992 -I never, ever liked the idea. 494 00:26:56,033 --> 00:26:58,244 I didn't want to do it, but I -- 495 00:26:58,286 --> 00:27:00,955 it was either I go along with having two other co-wives 496 00:27:00,997 --> 00:27:02,373 or I wasn't married to Dharmatma, 497 00:27:02,415 --> 00:27:06,544 and I was too attached to him by that time. 498 00:27:06,586 --> 00:27:09,547 Christina and I were both pregnant at the same time, 499 00:27:09,589 --> 00:27:12,717 which was weird 'cause, yeah, we weren't -- 500 00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:14,218 didn't really get along, you know? 501 00:27:14,260 --> 00:27:16,429 It was almost like, "Who's gonna have the baby first?" 502 00:27:16,471 --> 00:27:18,389 kind of competition. [ Laughs ] 503 00:27:18,431 --> 00:27:22,018 So I had Dhruva, and then three days later, 504 00:27:22,060 --> 00:27:24,395 Christina had Prema. 505 00:27:24,437 --> 00:27:33,362 ** 506 00:27:33,404 --> 00:27:35,656 -My mom didn't even get to name me. 507 00:27:35,698 --> 00:27:38,034 Kirtanananda named me. 508 00:27:38,076 --> 00:27:42,080 I mean, that's like... 509 00:27:42,121 --> 00:27:44,290 who does that? 510 00:27:44,332 --> 00:27:46,626 Being a girl in New Vrindaban, 511 00:27:46,667 --> 00:27:52,173 you're not looked at on the same level as any boys. 512 00:27:52,215 --> 00:27:56,552 You were told from a very young age 513 00:27:56,594 --> 00:28:00,181 that you weren't gonna go to school, 514 00:28:00,223 --> 00:28:04,185 you were going to be, um, married off, 515 00:28:04,227 --> 00:28:07,438 most likely to somebody not of your choosing. 516 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,401 You're just less than. You're not valued. 517 00:28:14,028 --> 00:28:16,572 -Um, it was a lot of fun times. 518 00:28:16,614 --> 00:28:19,659 It was really just a beautiful playground. 519 00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:21,202 The place was -- was heavenly. 520 00:28:21,244 --> 00:28:24,330 And to me, he was just Uncle Kirtanananda, you know? 521 00:28:24,372 --> 00:28:27,083 He was always very good to me, to my friends. 522 00:28:27,125 --> 00:28:31,254 Like, he would -- you know, he'd play with us. 523 00:28:31,295 --> 00:28:33,673 My father was quite a genius. 524 00:28:33,715 --> 00:28:36,300 It was so awesome, what he started -- 525 00:28:36,342 --> 00:28:38,094 this new, like, tidal wave 526 00:28:38,136 --> 00:28:44,267 of good energy, money coming in, wealth. 527 00:28:44,308 --> 00:28:45,810 -As soon as Dhruva was born, 528 00:28:45,852 --> 00:28:50,481 we were both very attached and happy to have him, you know. 529 00:28:50,523 --> 00:28:53,109 But that's when Kirtanananda told my husband, 530 00:28:53,151 --> 00:28:55,236 "Tell your wives they have to go out." 531 00:28:55,278 --> 00:28:57,530 So when Dhruva was two months old, 532 00:28:57,572 --> 00:29:01,117 I had to leave him behind and go out on the road 533 00:29:01,159 --> 00:29:04,120 and wouldn't see him for weeks. 534 00:29:04,162 --> 00:29:05,705 And that's when I kind of realized 535 00:29:05,747 --> 00:29:09,459 that he wasn't all he's cracked up to be. 536 00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:11,878 'Cause you wouldn't do that to a mother, 537 00:29:11,919 --> 00:29:15,339 I don't think, personally. 538 00:29:18,342 --> 00:29:20,803 -One of the strangest things that happened -- 539 00:29:20,845 --> 00:29:23,097 the women who were ordered to go out on sankirtan, 540 00:29:23,139 --> 00:29:28,436 their children would be watched in -- in a nursery situation. 541 00:29:28,478 --> 00:29:32,899 -In Krishna consciousness, you would want to make sure 542 00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:38,654 that you were not attached to anything in this material world, 543 00:29:38,696 --> 00:29:42,617 including people, which would include your children. 544 00:29:44,118 --> 00:29:47,705 So your children were removed from you, 545 00:29:47,747 --> 00:29:50,792 and then they would go off to a boarding school. 546 00:29:55,338 --> 00:29:57,340 -In the gurukula system in New Vrindaban, 547 00:29:57,382 --> 00:30:01,260 we would have one teacher who would be the teacher, 548 00:30:01,302 --> 00:30:05,223 in whose ashram room you lived, where you slept, 549 00:30:05,264 --> 00:30:07,809 and he was in charge of you. 550 00:30:07,850 --> 00:30:09,519 -If you could talk, if you knew how to [chuckles] 551 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,147 make change for a dollar, you were out on The Pick. 552 00:30:13,189 --> 00:30:16,484 If you weren't, you were in the gurukula. 553 00:30:16,526 --> 00:30:19,445 People who were mentally unstable and obviously had, 554 00:30:19,487 --> 00:30:21,656 you know, what we call now anger issues 555 00:30:21,697 --> 00:30:25,326 were in charge of watching these children. 556 00:30:25,368 --> 00:30:30,039 -I suffered physical abuses that were 557 00:30:30,081 --> 00:30:32,166 so normal and so frequent 558 00:30:32,208 --> 00:30:35,128 and so intensive. 559 00:30:35,169 --> 00:30:37,213 Kids got their arms broken from being yanked 560 00:30:37,255 --> 00:30:39,382 and roughly handled around, 561 00:30:39,424 --> 00:30:41,634 constantly being beaten in many different ways -- 562 00:30:41,676 --> 00:30:44,053 switched with switches, paddled with paddles, 563 00:30:44,095 --> 00:30:46,681 punched, [chuckles] whatever. 564 00:30:46,723 --> 00:30:49,267 And it was a lifestyle, you know, that we lived, 565 00:30:49,308 --> 00:30:50,727 that we grew up with. 566 00:30:50,768 --> 00:30:53,229 Like, that's what our whole childhoods were made of. 567 00:30:53,271 --> 00:30:54,564 I was alone. I didn't have protection. 568 00:30:54,605 --> 00:30:57,442 My mother at that time was collecting. 569 00:30:57,483 --> 00:30:59,444 She was gone for long periods of time. 570 00:30:59,485 --> 00:31:01,487 I didn't see her much. 571 00:31:01,529 --> 00:31:04,407 Keith Ham's example and character 572 00:31:04,449 --> 00:31:07,076 certainly flowed down everything that I experienced. 573 00:31:07,118 --> 00:31:12,915 He basically would preach that you have to control your wife, 574 00:31:12,957 --> 00:31:17,920 you know, keep her in line, and beat her if necessary. 575 00:31:17,962 --> 00:31:22,383 Everything flows down from the top in that sense. 576 00:31:22,425 --> 00:31:24,552 -In New Vrindaban, 577 00:31:24,594 --> 00:31:28,097 women were definitely seen as, um, 578 00:31:28,139 --> 00:31:30,308 lesser human beings. 579 00:31:30,349 --> 00:31:33,519 Dennis was so controlling 580 00:31:33,561 --> 00:31:37,023 to, uh, the point where we had to ask, 581 00:31:37,065 --> 00:31:39,859 "When can I eat? What can I have?" 582 00:31:39,901 --> 00:31:43,446 I was at risk at all times 583 00:31:43,488 --> 00:31:45,907 of anywhere from a slap 584 00:31:45,948 --> 00:31:49,077 to a very severe beating. 585 00:31:49,118 --> 00:31:54,832 He was and is an evil man. 586 00:31:58,878 --> 00:32:01,547 I absolutely think that Dennis would refuse 587 00:32:01,589 --> 00:32:03,841 to do an interview with you. 588 00:32:03,883 --> 00:32:09,722 ** 589 00:32:09,764 --> 00:32:13,393 -Dennis Gorrick interview. Mark. 590 00:32:18,481 --> 00:32:21,067 [ Woman chanting indistinctly ] 591 00:32:21,109 --> 00:32:24,612 -I'm not gonna say that I was such a pure guy. 592 00:32:24,654 --> 00:32:28,741 I had my problems, too. 593 00:32:28,783 --> 00:32:32,662 Our philosophy is based on separation of the sexes. 594 00:32:32,703 --> 00:32:36,040 Just for that reason, the butter and fire principle -- 595 00:32:36,082 --> 00:32:40,586 men are like butter and women are like fire, 596 00:32:40,628 --> 00:32:42,672 and when the two come together [chuckles] 597 00:32:42,714 --> 00:32:48,928 generally, you know, the butter starts melting. 598 00:32:48,970 --> 00:32:51,764 So on some occasions, I had relations 599 00:32:51,806 --> 00:32:54,016 with, uh, some of the ladies. 600 00:32:54,058 --> 00:32:56,936 On a couple of occasions women told me that, 601 00:32:56,978 --> 00:33:00,440 "I'm gonna leave if, you know, you don't do something with me." 602 00:33:00,481 --> 00:33:04,694 I was perplexed because, you know, I felt guilty. 603 00:33:04,736 --> 00:33:07,196 So I went to Kirtanananda and he said, 604 00:33:07,238 --> 00:33:10,032 "Well, whatever it takes, 605 00:33:10,074 --> 00:33:13,369 whatever it takes to keep them out there on The Pick, 606 00:33:13,411 --> 00:33:15,621 getting -- making money." 607 00:33:15,663 --> 00:33:19,292 But there could be up to 100 devotees going out. 608 00:33:19,333 --> 00:33:22,295 It became more stress for me. 609 00:33:22,336 --> 00:33:24,756 Sometimes I was a little firm 610 00:33:24,797 --> 00:33:29,052 and maybe a little... heavy-handed. 611 00:33:29,093 --> 00:33:30,887 -Kirtanananda told him -- 612 00:33:30,928 --> 00:33:32,722 he said, "What if I'm having trouble, 613 00:33:32,764 --> 00:33:34,348 like, the girls don't want to go out? 614 00:33:34,390 --> 00:33:35,767 What should I do?" And he said, 615 00:33:35,808 --> 00:33:39,062 "Oh, just smack them. That always works." 616 00:33:39,103 --> 00:33:42,482 -When he gave me that instruction that I smack them, 617 00:33:42,523 --> 00:33:45,860 you know, I-I did it on occasion. 618 00:33:48,112 --> 00:33:51,532 You know, they would argue, they would, uh -- 619 00:33:51,574 --> 00:33:56,162 they'd challenge you or cuss or something. 620 00:33:56,204 --> 00:33:59,165 And I-I would smack them, 621 00:33:59,207 --> 00:34:04,670 I mean, after getting the, uh, go-ahead from Kirtanananda. 622 00:34:04,712 --> 00:34:08,174 But our philosophy is such that if the spiritual master 623 00:34:08,216 --> 00:34:10,009 asks you to do something, 624 00:34:10,051 --> 00:34:13,096 you take it as, uh, something good. 625 00:34:13,137 --> 00:34:16,557 I thought it was something that had to be done. 626 00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:18,684 As Kirtanananda explained, 627 00:34:18,726 --> 00:34:23,022 whatever keeps them doing their service. 628 00:34:23,064 --> 00:34:25,900 Prior to getting the go-ahead from Kirtanananda, 629 00:34:25,942 --> 00:34:29,904 I'd never hit a woman in my life and, you know, 630 00:34:29,946 --> 00:34:34,826 I-I feel terrible about it, that it happened, uh... 631 00:34:36,494 --> 00:34:39,038 You know, uh... 632 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:40,915 You know what I mean? Sometimes you just lash out 633 00:34:40,957 --> 00:34:43,960 when you get very disturbed and angry. 634 00:34:44,001 --> 00:34:47,964 -Dennis beat me with, um, a wooden coat hanger. 635 00:34:48,005 --> 00:34:52,468 He beat me with a metal nail file. 636 00:34:52,510 --> 00:34:58,057 His favorite tool was, um, a rubber hose. 637 00:34:58,099 --> 00:35:01,477 One of the worst times was when I was pregnant. 638 00:35:01,519 --> 00:35:04,230 He made me strip off all my clothes, 639 00:35:04,272 --> 00:35:05,565 lay on the floor, 640 00:35:05,606 --> 00:35:07,483 and he just beat me with that rubber hose 641 00:35:07,525 --> 00:35:09,902 up and down my back, up and down my legs. 642 00:35:16,117 --> 00:35:18,077 -The rubber hose. Mm. 643 00:35:20,204 --> 00:35:23,583 Well, t-truth being, uh, 644 00:35:23,624 --> 00:35:26,252 she was one of the biggest problems. 645 00:35:26,294 --> 00:35:31,758 There was a few times that I just lost it with her. 646 00:35:31,799 --> 00:35:35,595 And I might have picked up something that was handy -- 647 00:35:35,636 --> 00:35:38,806 a stick or, you know, they say rubber hose. 648 00:35:38,848 --> 00:35:42,602 There might have been a piece of something to that effect. 649 00:35:42,643 --> 00:35:48,232 The problem is, nowadays with the #MeToo movement, 650 00:35:48,274 --> 00:35:49,984 women can say anything. 651 00:35:50,026 --> 00:35:55,782 And, you know, i-it's for me to prove. 652 00:35:57,492 --> 00:35:59,243 -Oh. Man, I don't even know. 653 00:35:59,285 --> 00:36:04,624 It hurts through every layer of skin that you have. 654 00:36:04,665 --> 00:36:07,585 I remember that I had to stand up all night 655 00:36:07,627 --> 00:36:09,754 because the only place that didn't hurt 656 00:36:09,796 --> 00:36:12,507 was the bottom of my feet. 657 00:36:14,008 --> 00:36:18,638 I did not dare press charges 658 00:36:18,679 --> 00:36:21,140 because he would kill me. 659 00:36:21,182 --> 00:36:23,142 Without a doubt. 660 00:36:23,184 --> 00:36:25,937 And I finally just decided, you know what? 661 00:36:25,978 --> 00:36:30,400 My kids are gonna have Mommy dead, 662 00:36:30,441 --> 00:36:33,111 Mommy in an insane asylum somewhere, 663 00:36:33,152 --> 00:36:36,823 or Mommy out trying to make it in the world 664 00:36:36,864 --> 00:36:39,992 to give them a safe home. 665 00:36:40,034 --> 00:36:43,496 And that was when I decided that I had to leave. 666 00:36:43,538 --> 00:36:49,961 ** 667 00:36:50,002 --> 00:36:52,171 Okay. 668 00:36:52,213 --> 00:36:54,006 Can we -- Can we move on? 669 00:36:54,048 --> 00:37:00,096 ** 670 00:37:00,138 --> 00:37:04,684 -I have this memory from when I was four of my mother, 671 00:37:04,726 --> 00:37:09,814 Christina, escaping New Vrindaban. 672 00:37:09,856 --> 00:37:12,483 I remember being told for a couple of weeks 673 00:37:12,525 --> 00:37:14,610 that she was coming back. 674 00:37:16,404 --> 00:37:19,365 Well, she never came back. 675 00:37:19,407 --> 00:37:22,952 And then the story changed. 676 00:37:22,994 --> 00:37:27,123 My father -- he told me, "She doesn't love you. 677 00:37:27,165 --> 00:37:30,960 She's not coming back. She never cared about you. 678 00:37:31,002 --> 00:37:33,296 Just forget about her." 679 00:37:36,132 --> 00:37:38,384 I was four. 680 00:37:38,426 --> 00:37:45,808 ** 681 00:37:45,850 --> 00:37:48,311 [ Voice breaking ] I hated her for so long. 682 00:37:51,397 --> 00:37:53,107 [ Sniffles ] 683 00:37:53,149 --> 00:37:55,109 So long. 684 00:37:55,151 --> 00:37:57,028 And wanted absolutely nothing to do with her 685 00:37:57,070 --> 00:37:59,072 because of what my father did 686 00:37:59,113 --> 00:38:02,784 and how he poisoned all of us against her. 687 00:38:02,825 --> 00:38:06,079 That was the way things were done in New Vrindaban 688 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,082 to exert control. 689 00:38:09,123 --> 00:38:14,420 It was more of that mental and emotional abuse. 690 00:38:14,462 --> 00:38:22,595 ** 691 00:38:22,637 --> 00:38:27,100 -When Kirtanananda got too much involved in people's lives, 692 00:38:27,141 --> 00:38:29,143 it caused him to almost lose his life 693 00:38:29,185 --> 00:38:33,231 because people fought back at that. 694 00:38:33,272 --> 00:38:37,360 -In October of 1985, a call came in that said 695 00:38:37,402 --> 00:38:41,155 somebody had attacked Swami Kirtanananda. 696 00:38:42,323 --> 00:38:46,452 -I was sitting on his lap when he got hit on the head 697 00:38:46,494 --> 00:38:49,664 by a metal pole of sort, 698 00:38:49,705 --> 00:38:54,460 and my father was there holding Kirtanananda's head together. 699 00:38:54,502 --> 00:38:58,464 When he got out of the hospital, he was different. 700 00:38:58,506 --> 00:39:01,300 -The doctor said it was enough to kill 100 men. 701 00:39:01,342 --> 00:39:06,389 -That was the spiritual pushback to the extreme. 702 00:39:08,182 --> 00:39:13,730 And once he survived that, he became more extreme. 703 00:39:20,111 --> 00:39:23,197 [ Man chanting indistinctly ] 704 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,952 ** 705 00:39:27,994 --> 00:39:31,456 -When Kirtanananda survived the attack, 706 00:39:31,497 --> 00:39:33,374 he was never the same. 707 00:39:33,416 --> 00:39:37,920 Whatever he was before exponentially expanded 708 00:39:37,962 --> 00:39:39,922 into a kind of... 709 00:39:39,964 --> 00:39:43,718 mish-mash spiritual madness. 710 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,430 And his followers just followed him 711 00:39:47,472 --> 00:39:49,849 because they're basically minions 712 00:39:49,891 --> 00:39:53,436 instead of self-thinking individuals. 713 00:39:53,478 --> 00:39:57,607 -The Swami bought an attack dog, a very expensive attack dog. 714 00:39:57,648 --> 00:40:01,569 He had personal security people around him. 715 00:40:01,611 --> 00:40:05,156 Once he had the dog growl and snarl at me and he asked me, 716 00:40:05,198 --> 00:40:07,450 "Well, Sergeant Westfall, are you afraid of my dog?" 717 00:40:07,492 --> 00:40:10,119 I said, "Well, unless they have bulletproof dogs, Swami, 718 00:40:10,161 --> 00:40:12,622 I'm not afraid of your dog." 719 00:40:12,663 --> 00:40:15,083 [ Indistinct singing ] 720 00:40:15,124 --> 00:40:17,919 -Kirtanananda was kind of losing it. 721 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:21,839 He became, like, less and less, uh, himself. 722 00:40:21,881 --> 00:40:23,591 We -- that's what I felt. 723 00:40:23,633 --> 00:40:26,552 And more and more, like, off the deep end. 724 00:40:26,594 --> 00:40:29,055 So, and, you know, people were following him. 725 00:40:29,097 --> 00:40:31,182 Many devotees that lived there didn't want to believe 726 00:40:31,224 --> 00:40:34,519 that he had lost it and that he had done anything wrong. 727 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,980 So they stayed with him no matter what. 728 00:40:38,022 --> 00:40:40,024 -I think a lot of people there either didn't know 729 00:40:40,066 --> 00:40:42,026 what he was doing or just kind of thought 730 00:40:42,068 --> 00:40:45,988 they weren't supposed to be thinking about that 731 00:40:46,030 --> 00:40:48,199 because he's a superior. 732 00:40:51,202 --> 00:40:53,496 It's interesting how, in the name of morality 733 00:40:53,538 --> 00:40:56,958 and the name of decency, people can become monsters. 734 00:40:56,999 --> 00:41:02,255 ** 735 00:41:02,296 --> 00:41:07,176 ** 736 00:41:07,218 --> 00:41:11,097 -My dad -- I didn't know whether he was dead or alive 737 00:41:11,139 --> 00:41:15,977 or really what that meant any more than he was gone. 738 00:41:16,018 --> 00:41:18,938 Was he alive? Was he dead? 739 00:41:18,980 --> 00:41:22,191 How does this resolve? 740 00:41:22,233 --> 00:41:26,070 -I had a murder that I'd been investigating for several years, 741 00:41:26,112 --> 00:41:27,363 the Charles St. Denis murder. 742 00:41:27,405 --> 00:41:29,157 My prosecutor would not go forward 743 00:41:29,198 --> 00:41:31,325 because there was no body. 744 00:41:31,367 --> 00:41:32,869 We didn't have the corpus delicti 745 00:41:32,910 --> 00:41:35,830 is what the attorneys always called it. 746 00:41:35,872 --> 00:41:39,250 [ Man chanting indistinctly ] 747 00:41:39,292 --> 00:41:43,379 -Eventually, the West Virginia State Police had been approached 748 00:41:43,421 --> 00:41:45,798 by a man named Steven Bryant, 749 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,677 who claimed that, um, there were all sorts of crimes 750 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,721 going on out in New Vrindaban, 751 00:41:51,763 --> 00:41:54,682 including murder and child abuse, 752 00:41:54,724 --> 00:41:59,562 and, you know, Keith Ham was running the operation. 753 00:42:00,730 --> 00:42:03,691 -Since 1977, these new self-appointed gurus 754 00:42:03,733 --> 00:42:06,569 have made 300, 400, 500 disciples each. 755 00:42:06,611 --> 00:42:08,571 So right now they hold the power of the movement 756 00:42:08,613 --> 00:42:13,076 in their hands, but they don't hold the morality. 757 00:42:13,117 --> 00:42:15,745 -Steve Bryant was a personal friend of mine 758 00:42:15,787 --> 00:42:18,581 and he told me, "I'm gonna go to New Vrindaban." 759 00:42:18,623 --> 00:42:20,875 And I says, "Oh, you can't go there." 760 00:42:20,917 --> 00:42:22,752 I was trying to warn him. 761 00:42:22,794 --> 00:42:25,922 He says, "Oh, yeah, uh, my wife wants to be with devotees 762 00:42:25,963 --> 00:42:28,925 on a -- on a rural community, so we're gonna go there." 763 00:42:28,966 --> 00:42:31,761 I says, "No, no, no, no, no, big mistake." 764 00:42:31,803 --> 00:42:33,805 -Steve was a -- a zealot. 765 00:42:33,846 --> 00:42:37,266 He was a person who interpreted scripture all of the time 766 00:42:37,308 --> 00:42:40,311 and always called people out for they were violating this 767 00:42:40,353 --> 00:42:43,314 or they were violating that. 768 00:42:43,356 --> 00:42:46,234 -The word that comes to mind is he was manic. 769 00:42:46,275 --> 00:42:48,444 He had a jewelry business that required him to travel. 770 00:42:48,486 --> 00:42:52,740 -And he had absented himself from New Vrindaban, 771 00:42:52,782 --> 00:42:55,827 and when he returned, he realized that Keith Ham 772 00:42:55,868 --> 00:42:58,454 had initiated his wife. 773 00:42:58,496 --> 00:43:02,667 -So Kirtanananda became her authority. 774 00:43:02,708 --> 00:43:04,043 And that's one of the things 775 00:43:04,085 --> 00:43:06,212 Steve Bryant was complaining about. 776 00:43:06,254 --> 00:43:09,090 -He doesn't seem to be under the spell of Keith Ham 777 00:43:09,132 --> 00:43:11,092 because he can resist. 778 00:43:11,134 --> 00:43:16,139 Well, Keith Ham can't tolerate resistance. 779 00:43:16,180 --> 00:43:17,640 -The walls started tumbling down 780 00:43:17,682 --> 00:43:20,727 when they had another Hare Krishna devotee 781 00:43:20,768 --> 00:43:22,478 who was about to come into an inheritance, 782 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,940 so they married Steve Bryant's wife to this new member 783 00:43:25,982 --> 00:43:28,109 to keep him on the community long enough for them 784 00:43:28,151 --> 00:43:29,652 to get the inheritance, which the Swami 785 00:43:29,694 --> 00:43:32,780 would be able to get his hands on. 786 00:43:32,822 --> 00:43:35,658 That's what had him riled up. 787 00:43:35,700 --> 00:43:38,202 -And he knew that Keith Ham had taken over control 788 00:43:38,244 --> 00:43:41,122 of his wife, and by virtue of that, 789 00:43:41,164 --> 00:43:43,040 had gained control over his children. 790 00:43:43,082 --> 00:43:45,793 And he's trying to get his children out of the community. 791 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,547 -One day he grabbed his kids 792 00:43:49,589 --> 00:43:53,718 and left New Vrindaban property in his van. 793 00:43:55,386 --> 00:44:00,099 And he was chased down by New Vrindaban people. 794 00:44:00,141 --> 00:44:01,601 They forced him to stop, 795 00:44:01,642 --> 00:44:04,020 and then they took his kids back to New Vrindaban. 796 00:44:04,062 --> 00:44:06,314 [ Indistinct chanting ] 797 00:44:08,483 --> 00:44:11,736 So after that, he called me up and he says, 798 00:44:11,778 --> 00:44:13,446 "I'm gonna come to Berkeley. 799 00:44:13,488 --> 00:44:15,031 We're going to do some writing together. 800 00:44:15,073 --> 00:44:18,868 We're gonna defeat these guys. We're gonna take them down." 801 00:44:18,910 --> 00:44:20,661 So he was in Berkeley 802 00:44:20,703 --> 00:44:24,332 writing his book called "The Guru Business." 803 00:44:25,249 --> 00:44:27,585 [ Typewriter keys clacking ] 804 00:44:27,627 --> 00:44:34,717 ** 805 00:44:34,759 --> 00:44:41,849 ** 806 00:44:41,891 --> 00:44:48,773 ** 807 00:44:48,815 --> 00:44:51,651 -He wanted to expose what was happening to the Krishnas, 808 00:44:51,692 --> 00:44:55,405 and he wanted to set the record straight. 809 00:44:55,446 --> 00:45:00,159 Steven Bryant was going around and talking to people and -- 810 00:45:00,201 --> 00:45:02,203 and what you saw happening at the gurukula, 811 00:45:02,245 --> 00:45:04,122 at the -- what they call with the school -- 812 00:45:04,163 --> 00:45:06,374 there was child abuse. 813 00:45:06,416 --> 00:45:08,876 What was happening out on The Pick, 814 00:45:08,918 --> 00:45:10,420 and this story about this man, 815 00:45:10,461 --> 00:45:11,754 St. Denis, who had been murdered. 816 00:45:11,796 --> 00:45:13,756 It was kind of a whispering out there 817 00:45:13,798 --> 00:45:16,134 and not knowing what had happened. 818 00:45:17,635 --> 00:45:19,637 Steven Bryant -- he was just so damn thorough. 819 00:45:19,679 --> 00:45:21,597 And, you know, he was picking up momentum 820 00:45:21,639 --> 00:45:23,599 and get-- and getting more and more information 821 00:45:23,641 --> 00:45:26,394 and more and more first-hand accounts. 822 00:45:26,436 --> 00:45:28,896 And he was also a catalyst. 823 00:45:28,938 --> 00:45:34,694 And I feel that he was emboldening people to talk. 824 00:45:34,736 --> 00:45:37,905 -Then he started traveling to other temples 825 00:45:37,947 --> 00:45:42,201 and would make his allegations about New Vrindaban. 826 00:45:42,243 --> 00:45:47,457 And that word was getting back to Keith Ham. 827 00:45:47,498 --> 00:45:49,625 -He's threatening Keith Ham by telling him, 828 00:45:49,667 --> 00:45:54,464 "Listen, I'm going to reveal. I'm pulling the curtain back." 829 00:45:54,505 --> 00:45:56,049 -He talked to devotees. 830 00:45:56,090 --> 00:45:59,177 He said, "The sinister movement is within our movement," 831 00:45:59,218 --> 00:46:01,637 and they couldn't have some whistleblower going around 832 00:46:01,679 --> 00:46:04,265 saying there's criminal activity going on. 833 00:46:04,307 --> 00:46:08,144 Just like the mob, you can't have a snitch. 834 00:46:08,186 --> 00:46:09,604 Can't allow that. 835 00:46:15,902 --> 00:46:20,907 ** 836 00:46:20,948 --> 00:46:24,911 -Steve was coming back for the 1985 World Conference 837 00:46:24,952 --> 00:46:28,456 where all of the officials of the Hare Krishna movement 838 00:46:28,498 --> 00:46:31,250 were going to be in, uh, West Virginia. 839 00:46:31,292 --> 00:46:34,754 Steven Bryant felt that he was gonna burst into this meeting 840 00:46:34,796 --> 00:46:38,424 and he was gonna make his accusations against Kirtanananda 841 00:46:38,466 --> 00:46:41,636 and the gurus were all gonna turn around and say, 842 00:46:41,677 --> 00:46:43,179 "Well, we're gonna remove him." 843 00:46:43,221 --> 00:46:47,100 And then Steven Bryant was going to be the victor. 844 00:46:47,141 --> 00:46:48,601 -He had written statements. 845 00:46:48,643 --> 00:46:51,396 He had cassette tapes that he brought from people. 846 00:46:51,437 --> 00:46:53,439 And I was surprised at how many people 847 00:46:53,481 --> 00:46:57,276 were willing to talk to Steven Bryant 848 00:46:57,318 --> 00:46:59,278 and perhaps bring about a change 849 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:00,905 where their love for the religion 850 00:47:00,947 --> 00:47:02,949 could be totally aligned with the love of the hierarchy 851 00:47:02,990 --> 00:47:05,743 that was actually administering that religion. 852 00:47:05,785 --> 00:47:10,623 Steven was brave, but Steve was also foolhardy. 853 00:47:10,665 --> 00:47:13,668 -At one point before the 1985 World Conference, 854 00:47:13,710 --> 00:47:16,212 he called my sheriff at the time, 855 00:47:16,254 --> 00:47:17,797 Sheriff Donald Bordenkircher, 856 00:47:17,839 --> 00:47:20,049 and said, "I want to appear at the World Conference, 857 00:47:20,091 --> 00:47:21,801 but I need personal protection." 858 00:47:21,843 --> 00:47:25,096 But in West Virginia, sheriffs are elected officials. 859 00:47:25,138 --> 00:47:28,766 And Sheriff Bordenkircher knew that when he ran for reelection, 860 00:47:28,808 --> 00:47:32,353 if he could pick up 500 votes from the community out there 861 00:47:32,395 --> 00:47:34,605 just by doing some favors for them, 862 00:47:34,647 --> 00:47:37,233 that was a pretty good trade. 863 00:47:37,275 --> 00:47:40,570 So what the sheriff did was called the Hare Krishnas 864 00:47:40,611 --> 00:47:42,613 about the conversation with Steven Bryant 865 00:47:42,655 --> 00:47:43,948 and that he was coming back, 866 00:47:43,990 --> 00:47:47,243 and that put the Krishna community on alert. 867 00:47:47,285 --> 00:47:49,162 -Steven was so happy because, 868 00:47:49,203 --> 00:47:50,288 "Oh, I'm working with the sheriff, 869 00:47:50,329 --> 00:47:51,956 and I'm doing God's work." 870 00:47:51,998 --> 00:47:55,293 And at some point, the sheriff had said he should get a gun 871 00:47:55,334 --> 00:47:58,421 or make sure you protect yourself. 872 00:47:58,463 --> 00:48:00,923 So he's staying at a local motel. 873 00:48:00,965 --> 00:48:04,052 And the sheriff came by, and when he sees the sheriff, 874 00:48:04,093 --> 00:48:06,137 he said, "Hey, I got the piece." 875 00:48:06,179 --> 00:48:08,639 He shows him the gun. He's really proud of himself. 876 00:48:08,681 --> 00:48:10,266 And like -- and the sheriff says, "Good, good. 877 00:48:10,308 --> 00:48:11,809 That's good," you know. 878 00:48:11,851 --> 00:48:14,687 -So then the sheriff called two road deputies in 879 00:48:14,729 --> 00:48:17,023 and told them to locate Steven Bryant and arrest him. 880 00:48:17,065 --> 00:48:20,234 His pistol was in his -- in his belt. 881 00:48:20,276 --> 00:48:22,612 Well, the two deputies put him down on the floor, 882 00:48:22,653 --> 00:48:25,323 put the handcuffs on, seized his .45 pistol, 883 00:48:25,364 --> 00:48:27,617 and took him up to the office, 884 00:48:27,658 --> 00:48:30,912 and they charged him with a weapons charge. 885 00:48:30,953 --> 00:48:34,040 -So it was the sheriff's idea that he gets a gun. 886 00:48:34,082 --> 00:48:35,333 He gets a gun. 887 00:48:35,374 --> 00:48:37,043 Sheriff comes and arrests him for having a gun. 888 00:48:37,085 --> 00:48:39,003 So he wondered just how deeply this connection went 889 00:48:39,045 --> 00:48:42,256 between the sheriff and the Hare Krishnas. 890 00:48:42,298 --> 00:48:44,717 It came out while Steve was in jail on the gun charge 891 00:48:44,759 --> 00:48:46,886 that the sheriff had actually invited members 892 00:48:46,928 --> 00:48:51,224 of the Hare Krishna community in to view all these documents 893 00:48:51,265 --> 00:48:52,600 that Steve Bryant had collected 894 00:48:52,642 --> 00:48:55,978 that were incriminating the Hare Krishnas. 895 00:48:56,020 --> 00:48:58,648 The sheriff was encouraging Steve Bryant to collect 896 00:48:58,689 --> 00:49:01,067 in order to incriminate the Hare Krishnas, and, in fact, 897 00:49:01,109 --> 00:49:03,528 the sheriff had invited the Krishna community in, 898 00:49:03,569 --> 00:49:05,363 members of the community in, to say, 899 00:49:05,405 --> 00:49:07,073 "Here's what Steve Bryant has on you." 900 00:49:10,118 --> 00:49:12,161 -Steven Bryant was held in the jail 901 00:49:12,203 --> 00:49:15,540 until the 1985 World Conference was over. 902 00:49:15,581 --> 00:49:17,792 When Steven Bryant got out of jail, 903 00:49:17,834 --> 00:49:21,129 That's when they started to surveil him. 904 00:49:21,170 --> 00:49:24,590 Thomas Drescher took a Snoopy sticker 905 00:49:24,632 --> 00:49:26,926 that they used in their sankirtan collections 906 00:49:26,968 --> 00:49:29,011 and put it on the back bumper of his van, 907 00:49:29,053 --> 00:49:32,181 so that made tailing him that much easier. 908 00:49:32,223 --> 00:49:38,271 ** 909 00:49:38,312 --> 00:49:40,440 -At that point, Steve told me, 910 00:49:40,481 --> 00:49:41,983 "I'm gonna quit doing all this." 911 00:49:42,024 --> 00:49:43,943 He told me, "I'm gonna give up on this battle. 912 00:49:43,985 --> 00:49:47,780 I'm not gonna do this anymore. It's too dangerous." 913 00:49:47,822 --> 00:49:51,451 -He really felt betrayed by the authorities. 914 00:49:51,492 --> 00:49:53,119 -When he came back, he was gonna just 915 00:49:53,161 --> 00:49:56,497 start his life over again. 916 00:49:56,539 --> 00:49:59,792 But it was too late. 917 00:49:59,834 --> 00:50:03,755 -I remember two guys coming to the door, 918 00:50:03,796 --> 00:50:09,802 and Dennis told me to get $5,000 out of the money room. 919 00:50:09,844 --> 00:50:13,306 And then, um, I saw him handing this money 920 00:50:13,347 --> 00:50:16,601 to Thomas Drescher. 921 00:50:16,642 --> 00:50:18,853 -Tirtha had come to my house, 922 00:50:18,895 --> 00:50:21,147 and he showed me some pages from a book 923 00:50:21,189 --> 00:50:26,903 where Kirtanananda was being criticized by Steven Bryant. 924 00:50:26,944 --> 00:50:30,740 And then I was authorized to give him some money 925 00:50:30,782 --> 00:50:32,033 to do surveillance. 926 00:50:32,075 --> 00:50:33,701 That's all it was supposed to be for -- 927 00:50:33,743 --> 00:50:37,455 surveillance of Steven Bryant. 928 00:50:37,497 --> 00:50:38,748 -That's when Thomas Drescher -- 929 00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:40,374 he was given money for it, 930 00:50:40,416 --> 00:50:44,212 and he was on his way with some false identification. 931 00:50:44,253 --> 00:50:46,631 He went to Los Angeles. 932 00:50:46,672 --> 00:50:48,508 -And I said, "Steve, don't go to L.A. 933 00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:50,635 Don't go to L.A. because the police here 934 00:50:50,676 --> 00:50:53,179 in Berkeley like us. This is our refuge." 935 00:50:53,221 --> 00:50:56,682 But Steve was very worried that if we were together, 936 00:50:56,724 --> 00:50:58,267 we would both be taken out together, 937 00:50:58,309 --> 00:51:02,772 and then there would be no one left to tell the story. 938 00:51:02,814 --> 00:51:05,900 He wanted to go to Los Angeles for that reason. 939 00:51:05,942 --> 00:51:08,903 He said, "This is probably the last time I'll ever see you." 940 00:51:10,571 --> 00:51:12,740 He knew. 941 00:51:15,952 --> 00:51:18,704 -I got a call from the detective from Los Angeles, 942 00:51:18,746 --> 00:51:20,498 and he asked me if I knew Steven Bryant. 943 00:51:20,540 --> 00:51:23,459 And I'm thinking about the file cabinets and the boxes 944 00:51:23,501 --> 00:51:25,211 and all of the materials that I had. 945 00:51:25,253 --> 00:51:28,089 -Everything went on with Kirtanananda knowing about it 946 00:51:28,131 --> 00:51:29,215 in the community. 947 00:51:29,257 --> 00:51:31,551 -The attorney said, "We need to talk, 948 00:51:31,592 --> 00:51:33,553 because I can help you find the body. 949 00:51:33,594 --> 00:51:34,929 We need to make a deal." 950 00:51:34,971 --> 00:51:37,515 -The first image that I can remember seeing 951 00:51:37,557 --> 00:51:40,560 was them pulling my father's skull 952 00:51:40,601 --> 00:51:42,770 out of the earth. 953 00:51:42,812 --> 00:51:45,898 -They were also concerned about assaults and sexual crimes 954 00:51:45,940 --> 00:51:47,984 against the children in the schools. 955 00:51:48,025 --> 00:51:50,987 -Kirtanananda had this philosophy that sex is sex, 956 00:51:51,028 --> 00:51:52,113 and you're having your sex 957 00:51:52,155 --> 00:51:53,906 within the bounds of your marriage. 958 00:51:53,948 --> 00:51:56,242 And you're criticizing these guys for having, 959 00:51:56,284 --> 00:52:01,205 as he called it, "hankie panky" in the gurukula with the boys. 960 00:52:01,247 --> 00:52:02,999 -You're taking down an organization 961 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,752 or taking down someone, suddenly there's a -- the flip. 962 00:52:05,793 --> 00:52:08,755 And now 51% is turning against them. 963 00:52:08,796 --> 00:52:11,382 [ Gunshots ] 964 00:52:13,801 --> 00:52:22,060 ** 965 00:52:22,101 --> 00:52:30,151 ** 966 00:52:30,193 --> 00:52:33,196 **