1 00:00:12,638 --> 00:00:16,392 -Banwell interview. Take one. Mark. 2 00:00:16,434 --> 00:00:18,895 -How should I say this? Okay. 3 00:00:18,936 --> 00:00:21,064 My name is Jeffrey M. Banwell. 4 00:00:21,105 --> 00:00:22,565 I'm a former special agent 5 00:00:22,607 --> 00:00:24,817 of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. 6 00:00:24,859 --> 00:00:28,738 ** 7 00:00:28,780 --> 00:00:32,575 My initial assignment -- I was the junior agent -- 8 00:00:32,617 --> 00:00:35,912 the counties I was given were the least populated 9 00:00:35,953 --> 00:00:39,457 and hardest to navigate. 10 00:00:39,499 --> 00:00:41,459 ** 11 00:00:41,501 --> 00:00:46,381 I had to familiarize myself with the principal location 12 00:00:46,422 --> 00:00:48,424 of the Hare Krishna community. 13 00:00:48,466 --> 00:00:51,511 I think it was a 2,000-acre settlement 14 00:00:51,552 --> 00:00:54,055 in the hills of West Virginia. 15 00:00:54,097 --> 00:00:57,975 That was when my education about the Hare Krishnas started. 16 00:00:58,017 --> 00:01:01,104 ** 17 00:01:01,145 --> 00:01:03,147 -This world is a sick place. 18 00:01:03,189 --> 00:01:06,567 This is the place of the fallen or the conditioned souls, 19 00:01:06,609 --> 00:01:08,528 and it is a place for reformation. 20 00:01:08,569 --> 00:01:11,948 -Keith Ham was the spiritual leader 21 00:01:11,989 --> 00:01:18,955 that talked a...high element of social consciousness. 22 00:01:18,996 --> 00:01:20,540 [ Thunder rumbles ] 23 00:01:20,581 --> 00:01:24,210 But in the end, it was all about power 24 00:01:24,252 --> 00:01:26,254 and it was all about money. 25 00:01:26,295 --> 00:01:29,924 And as Winston Churchill alliterated, 26 00:01:29,966 --> 00:01:33,136 power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. 27 00:01:33,177 --> 00:01:36,639 The Palace of Gold was, 28 00:01:36,681 --> 00:01:39,225 I guess you'd call it a rammed earth structure. 29 00:01:39,267 --> 00:01:40,893 It was basically mud. 30 00:01:42,437 --> 00:01:45,815 The Palace of Gold is basically mud 31 00:01:45,857 --> 00:01:49,610 and it's been gilded with gold leaf 32 00:01:49,652 --> 00:01:54,532 to appear to be something that it is not. 33 00:01:54,574 --> 00:01:58,244 That's my opinion of New Vrindaban. 34 00:01:58,286 --> 00:02:00,329 At that time, 35 00:02:00,371 --> 00:02:05,001 everything underneath it was rotten. 36 00:02:05,043 --> 00:02:08,337 The West Virginia State Police had been approached 37 00:02:08,379 --> 00:02:10,715 by a man named Steven Bryant. 38 00:02:10,757 --> 00:02:14,218 -Since 1977, these new self-appointed gurus 39 00:02:14,260 --> 00:02:16,679 have made 300, 400, 500 disciples each. 40 00:02:16,721 --> 00:02:19,849 So right now they hold the power of the movement in their hands. 41 00:02:19,891 --> 00:02:22,518 -Steven Bryant claimed that there were 42 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,396 all sorts of crimes going on out in New Vrindaban, 43 00:02:25,438 --> 00:02:28,357 including murder, 44 00:02:28,399 --> 00:02:33,780 and that Keith Ham was running the operation. 45 00:02:33,821 --> 00:02:37,825 Steve Bryant was alleging that he was being surveilled. 46 00:02:37,867 --> 00:02:39,035 He was being followed. 47 00:02:39,077 --> 00:02:42,205 It was a week later 48 00:02:42,246 --> 00:02:45,374 he was found murdered. 49 00:02:45,416 --> 00:02:51,714 ** 50 00:02:51,756 --> 00:02:57,678 ** 51 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,056 -I asked to be filmed in silhouette for this 52 00:03:00,098 --> 00:03:03,684 because I was advised by the police to do that. 53 00:03:03,726 --> 00:03:07,438 Steve Bryant was a personal friend of mine, 54 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,732 and I do get threats 55 00:03:09,774 --> 00:03:11,859 and threatening-type messages even now. 56 00:03:11,901 --> 00:03:16,114 I'm just, you know, erring on the side of caution. 57 00:03:16,155 --> 00:03:18,074 ** 58 00:03:18,116 --> 00:03:22,870 Kirtanananda was one of the early disciples of Prabhupada. 59 00:03:22,912 --> 00:03:25,706 He felt like the Palace of Gold 60 00:03:25,748 --> 00:03:27,917 would make him a prominent person. 61 00:03:27,959 --> 00:03:30,586 He would have the biggest community, the biggest temple, 62 00:03:30,628 --> 00:03:32,171 the biggest everything. 63 00:03:32,213 --> 00:03:35,508 ** 64 00:03:35,550 --> 00:03:38,761 People knew you could get into trouble if you spoke out. 65 00:03:38,803 --> 00:03:43,307 Steve Bryant found that out himself as soon as he protested, 66 00:03:43,349 --> 00:03:45,351 as soon as he caused trouble. 67 00:03:45,393 --> 00:03:47,395 He's a marked man. 68 00:03:47,437 --> 00:03:51,149 Steve told me, "They're gonna get us. 69 00:03:51,190 --> 00:03:54,152 If we're together, they're gonna take us together. 70 00:03:54,193 --> 00:03:55,194 We'll both go. 71 00:03:55,236 --> 00:03:56,946 One of us has to survive 72 00:03:56,988 --> 00:03:59,699 so that there'll be somebody to tell the story." 73 00:03:59,741 --> 00:04:03,202 The last day I saw Steve Bryant 74 00:04:03,244 --> 00:04:06,748 was around May 19, 1986. 75 00:04:06,789 --> 00:04:09,333 He went to Los Angeles. 76 00:04:09,375 --> 00:04:12,378 He died May 22, 1986. 77 00:04:12,420 --> 00:04:15,298 [ Siren wailing ] 78 00:04:15,339 --> 00:04:16,883 -Leroy and I worked the division 79 00:04:16,924 --> 00:04:19,010 called Robbery-Homicide Division, 80 00:04:19,052 --> 00:04:21,763 Special Homicide Investigations. 81 00:04:21,804 --> 00:04:25,099 Basically high-publicity cases. 82 00:04:25,141 --> 00:04:28,644 -But the thing was surprising that the Hare Krishnas -- 83 00:04:28,686 --> 00:04:30,354 I mean, you're not talking local gangs. 84 00:04:30,396 --> 00:04:32,065 You're not talking Mafia case. 85 00:04:32,106 --> 00:04:34,400 But this is just so strange. 86 00:04:34,442 --> 00:04:40,948 ** 87 00:04:40,990 --> 00:04:44,368 -On May 22, 1986, 88 00:04:44,410 --> 00:04:47,163 Bryant decided to park his van 89 00:04:47,205 --> 00:04:51,334 directly under a streetlight and then sleep for the night. 90 00:04:51,375 --> 00:04:55,755 He was seated in the driver's seat, smoking a joint 91 00:04:55,797 --> 00:04:59,759 anywhere between midnight to 1:00 in the morning. 92 00:04:59,801 --> 00:05:03,262 Someone walked up to the side of the van 93 00:05:03,304 --> 00:05:08,768 and took his .45 semi-automatic 94 00:05:08,810 --> 00:05:11,479 and put it up next to the window... 95 00:05:12,730 --> 00:05:15,024 ...and shot him in the head. 96 00:05:15,066 --> 00:05:18,027 ** 97 00:05:18,069 --> 00:05:21,072 And then he shot him a second time in the head. 98 00:05:21,114 --> 00:05:24,033 ** 99 00:05:24,075 --> 00:05:27,036 The gun was torn apart and thrown in the trash. 100 00:05:27,078 --> 00:05:33,668 And why did this guy get shot on a side street in West LA 101 00:05:33,710 --> 00:05:36,879 and he's connected to the Krishnas in West Virginia? 102 00:05:36,921 --> 00:05:43,344 ** 103 00:05:43,386 --> 00:05:45,304 -I was in the temple there at 3:00, 104 00:05:45,346 --> 00:05:46,639 3:15 in the morning. 105 00:05:46,681 --> 00:05:48,224 The whole place was buzzing. 106 00:05:48,266 --> 00:05:50,977 Steven Bryant has been killed. 107 00:05:51,018 --> 00:05:53,479 Kirtanananda gave a class that morning 108 00:05:53,521 --> 00:05:55,857 and someone right out asked him, 109 00:05:55,898 --> 00:05:58,901 "What should we think when a demon is killed?" 110 00:05:58,943 --> 00:06:02,905 And Kirtanananda just says, "Well, like a poisonous snake, 111 00:06:02,947 --> 00:06:04,574 you're not disturbed when it's killed." 112 00:06:04,615 --> 00:06:06,951 ** 113 00:06:06,993 --> 00:06:10,413 It troubled me to think that Kirtanananda could be involved 114 00:06:10,455 --> 00:06:15,168 after having so much faith and trust in him over the years. 115 00:06:15,209 --> 00:06:19,797 But nothing went on in the community without his say. 116 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,425 ** 117 00:06:22,467 --> 00:06:25,511 Later on, when I went back to the sankirtan house, 118 00:06:25,553 --> 00:06:29,223 I got a phone call from Thomas Drescher. 119 00:06:29,265 --> 00:06:33,269 He said, "Did Kirtanananda tell you to give me money?" 120 00:06:33,311 --> 00:06:36,689 And I said, "I don't know anything about it." 121 00:06:36,731 --> 00:06:38,149 And I honestly didn't. 122 00:06:38,191 --> 00:06:40,985 And then he got very, very abusive 123 00:06:41,027 --> 00:06:43,696 and he just said, "Well, he better not screw me around. 124 00:06:43,738 --> 00:06:46,199 I need money to get out of the country." 125 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,452 ** 126 00:06:49,494 --> 00:06:51,454 -I got a call from LAPD. 127 00:06:51,496 --> 00:06:54,665 Paul Tippin said, "Do you know a guy named Steven Bryant?" 128 00:06:54,707 --> 00:06:56,167 And I said, "Yeah. What's he up to?" 129 00:06:56,209 --> 00:06:57,919 He said, "Well, he's dead." 130 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,213 And he said, "Well, how much do you know about these people?" 131 00:07:00,254 --> 00:07:02,715 I'm thinking about the file cabinets and the boxes 132 00:07:02,757 --> 00:07:04,634 and all of the materials that I had. 133 00:07:04,675 --> 00:07:06,886 And I said, "Well, I know kind of a lot." 134 00:07:06,928 --> 00:07:14,352 ** 135 00:07:14,394 --> 00:07:18,815 -LAPD, we start learning more and more about New Vrindaban. 136 00:07:18,856 --> 00:07:21,984 We were shocked to find out that they were involved 137 00:07:22,026 --> 00:07:26,030 in so many different criminal acts. 138 00:07:26,072 --> 00:07:29,826 I mean, it's so many that we heard about. 139 00:07:29,867 --> 00:07:33,079 After a while, we're just in awe of what was happening. 140 00:07:33,121 --> 00:07:38,793 -Luckily, we found out West Virginia State Troopers 141 00:07:38,835 --> 00:07:42,922 had an informant that was talking to them. 142 00:07:42,964 --> 00:07:47,093 -Randall Gorby, he was an aging revolutionary. 143 00:07:47,135 --> 00:07:49,178 Early on, he came to like the Hare Krishnas, 144 00:07:49,220 --> 00:07:51,764 and he put himself at their disposal. 145 00:07:51,806 --> 00:07:56,144 At that time, the ruling group in New Vrindaban 146 00:07:56,185 --> 00:07:58,604 were trying to acquire more property, 147 00:07:58,646 --> 00:08:00,231 and they did not have a very good relationship 148 00:08:00,273 --> 00:08:01,816 with the farmers who were their neighbors. 149 00:08:01,858 --> 00:08:03,735 But they knew that some of the farmers 150 00:08:03,776 --> 00:08:06,320 wanted to sell their property. 151 00:08:06,362 --> 00:08:10,908 -And so Randall acted as a straw man for them 152 00:08:10,950 --> 00:08:16,205 to purchase acreage because the local West Virginia natives 153 00:08:16,247 --> 00:08:19,917 weren't gonna sell property to the Hare Krishnas. 154 00:08:19,959 --> 00:08:22,962 -Gorby knew Keith Ham 155 00:08:23,004 --> 00:08:26,049 and was a friend of Tom Drescher, 156 00:08:26,090 --> 00:08:29,302 and Tom Drescher reached out to Randall 157 00:08:29,343 --> 00:08:35,058 and told Randall, "They promised to pay me to do this..." 158 00:08:35,099 --> 00:08:36,726 [ Metal taps ] 159 00:08:36,768 --> 00:08:38,728 "...to Bryant." 160 00:08:38,770 --> 00:08:42,899 He never said kill. He said, "To do this to Bryant." 161 00:08:42,940 --> 00:08:49,113 And Randall got cold feet to say the least. 162 00:08:49,155 --> 00:08:53,367 And he told the state police, and so they gave him a recorder 163 00:08:53,409 --> 00:08:57,663 and told him to have a conversation and get it on tape. 164 00:08:57,705 --> 00:08:59,957 And so Randall did. 165 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:20,269 ** 166 00:09:20,311 --> 00:09:24,941 -If we just had a dead body in a van, that's a whodunit 167 00:09:24,982 --> 00:09:27,110 and you have no clues. 168 00:09:27,151 --> 00:09:29,946 We got a clue right out of the get-go. 169 00:09:29,987 --> 00:09:32,115 [ Telephone rings ] 170 00:09:32,156 --> 00:09:34,033 ** 171 00:09:34,075 --> 00:09:37,203 Once we got the phone call and you had Gorby 172 00:09:37,245 --> 00:09:39,914 talking about what was going on, 173 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:42,959 it started the nucleus of the case. 174 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,963 We knew we needed to talk to Randall Gorby. 175 00:09:47,004 --> 00:09:48,631 -We had to go to West Virginia. 176 00:09:48,673 --> 00:09:52,135 ** 177 00:09:52,176 --> 00:09:55,304 We get there, Banwell comes out of an office. 178 00:09:55,346 --> 00:09:57,098 Comes up, they say, "You're not gonna believe this. 179 00:09:57,140 --> 00:10:01,227 Someone blew up Gorby's house." 180 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,237 ** 181 00:10:11,279 --> 00:10:15,283 -At that point, Leroy Orozco and Paul Tippin arrive 182 00:10:15,324 --> 00:10:18,161 and it's like, "Well, Randall's in the hospital 183 00:10:18,202 --> 00:10:20,079 'cause his house blew up." 184 00:10:20,121 --> 00:10:24,751 The entire house was completely full of natural gas. 185 00:10:24,792 --> 00:10:27,336 -We suspect someone disconnected it 186 00:10:27,378 --> 00:10:29,422 with the knowledge that every morning he'd wake up, 187 00:10:29,464 --> 00:10:32,300 the first thing he would do is light a cigarette. 188 00:10:32,341 --> 00:10:33,926 [ Explosion ] 189 00:10:33,968 --> 00:10:37,555 -He went through the roof like a rocket. 190 00:10:37,597 --> 00:10:41,225 But we were notified that Randall Gorby was not dead, 191 00:10:41,267 --> 00:10:44,312 that he was in the hospital and in intensive care, 192 00:10:44,353 --> 00:10:48,483 second- and third-degree burns on three quarters of his body. 193 00:10:48,524 --> 00:10:50,151 -But we're going to the hospital 194 00:10:50,193 --> 00:10:51,903 and we're gonna do a dying declaration, 195 00:10:51,944 --> 00:10:56,282 which is a specific type of interrogation 196 00:10:56,324 --> 00:10:59,410 that can be used later in a court proceeding. 197 00:10:59,452 --> 00:11:02,455 -Gorby, he came up with what we needed. 198 00:11:02,497 --> 00:11:06,292 -That Drescher called him and told him he had killed Bryant. 199 00:11:06,334 --> 00:11:08,419 -Randall Gorby also told police 200 00:11:08,461 --> 00:11:11,381 that Thomas Drescher was up in Kent, Ohio. 201 00:11:11,422 --> 00:11:16,135 ** 202 00:11:16,177 --> 00:11:20,098 -I received a call and they were looking for a murder suspect 203 00:11:20,139 --> 00:11:23,059 that they felt was in Kent. 204 00:11:23,101 --> 00:11:25,520 They gave me a description of the vehicle, 205 00:11:25,561 --> 00:11:27,522 which was a white Isuzu. 206 00:11:27,563 --> 00:11:29,273 It had Oregon plates on it. 207 00:11:29,315 --> 00:11:32,902 So I grabbed another detective and we got in my unmarked car 208 00:11:32,944 --> 00:11:35,321 and went looking for him. 209 00:11:35,363 --> 00:11:37,949 We were driving around and my partner is like, 210 00:11:37,990 --> 00:11:39,367 "You know, it's getting towards lunchtime. 211 00:11:39,409 --> 00:11:41,786 How long are we gonna do this?" 212 00:11:41,828 --> 00:11:44,455 I said, "You know, if we're hungry, maybe he's hungry." 213 00:11:44,497 --> 00:11:47,500 And I had knowledge of the Krishnas, 214 00:11:47,542 --> 00:11:49,669 and I remembered that they're vegetarians. 215 00:11:49,711 --> 00:11:51,170 And I told my partner, I said, 216 00:11:51,212 --> 00:11:52,797 "Let's just check a couple of the restaurants 217 00:11:52,839 --> 00:11:54,382 that serve vegetarian food." 218 00:11:54,424 --> 00:11:57,009 So we started towards one, and as we got there, 219 00:11:57,051 --> 00:11:58,928 we see the white Isuzu. 220 00:11:58,970 --> 00:12:01,848 ** 221 00:12:01,889 --> 00:12:03,224 So I decided we're gonna do 222 00:12:03,266 --> 00:12:05,017 the stop right there in the parking lot. 223 00:12:05,059 --> 00:12:06,686 ** 224 00:12:06,728 --> 00:12:09,647 When we ordered Thomas Drescher out of the car, 225 00:12:09,689 --> 00:12:11,524 he was stone-faced. 226 00:12:11,566 --> 00:12:16,487 The vehicle was full of suitcases and bags. 227 00:12:16,529 --> 00:12:18,114 There was a stun gun. 228 00:12:18,156 --> 00:12:20,366 There were several knives, 229 00:12:20,408 --> 00:12:22,493 a blackjack. 230 00:12:22,535 --> 00:12:25,705 Then we found a lot of handwritten notes. 231 00:12:25,747 --> 00:12:28,207 First ones were about getting out of the country, 232 00:12:28,249 --> 00:12:30,543 and it talked about going to New York City 233 00:12:30,585 --> 00:12:34,338 to the Indian Embassy and getting visas. 234 00:12:34,380 --> 00:12:39,052 We also found Thomas Drescher had over $4,000 in large bills. 235 00:12:39,093 --> 00:12:41,888 He had plans that he was going to disappear. 236 00:12:41,929 --> 00:12:44,307 -Authorities say Thomas Drescher, 237 00:12:44,348 --> 00:12:47,060 a member of the West Virginia Krishna compound, 238 00:12:47,101 --> 00:12:49,771 was hired to kill Steven Bryant. 239 00:12:49,812 --> 00:12:52,565 -The allegation is that, despite the docile appearance 240 00:12:52,607 --> 00:12:55,359 of the Krishnas, that there's a violence underneath, 241 00:12:55,401 --> 00:12:57,236 that Steve Bryant was a dissenter 242 00:12:57,278 --> 00:12:59,072 and that's why he was killed. 243 00:12:59,113 --> 00:13:02,325 -I think it's a concoction by people 244 00:13:02,366 --> 00:13:07,038 that have organized themselves to discredit, defame, 245 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,248 and destroy New Vrindaban. 246 00:13:09,290 --> 00:13:13,252 -Tirtha got arrested and the reaction 247 00:13:13,294 --> 00:13:15,338 of the entire community in New Vrindaban, 248 00:13:15,380 --> 00:13:17,632 myself and everybody included, 249 00:13:17,673 --> 00:13:22,345 was, like, completely shocked and disbelief 250 00:13:22,387 --> 00:13:24,597 that Kirtanananda would have anything to do 251 00:13:24,639 --> 00:13:28,101 with hiring someone to commit a murder. 252 00:13:28,142 --> 00:13:31,604 -The fact is they have not shown any connection 253 00:13:31,646 --> 00:13:36,109 between the murder of Mr. Bryant and our community. 254 00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:37,860 -Is there any connection? 255 00:13:37,902 --> 00:13:39,529 -Not that I know of. 256 00:13:39,570 --> 00:13:47,620 ** 257 00:13:47,662 --> 00:13:50,957 -In developing the information necessary 258 00:13:50,998 --> 00:13:53,459 to continue the investigation, 259 00:13:53,501 --> 00:13:59,632 the issue was if Drescher was hired to kill somebody... 260 00:14:00,758 --> 00:14:02,719 ...how were they funding that? 261 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,806 So we had to learn what their funding mechanism was. 262 00:14:06,848 --> 00:14:12,019 -So I'm sitting in the United States Attorneys office 263 00:14:12,061 --> 00:14:14,814 and Jeff Banwell said, "Do devotees 264 00:14:14,856 --> 00:14:17,775 ever go across state lines other than this murder?" 265 00:14:17,817 --> 00:14:20,778 And then I told him about the financial crimes and The Pick. 266 00:14:20,820 --> 00:14:24,365 And that's when Jeff Banwell said, "Eureka. 267 00:14:24,407 --> 00:14:27,285 Another federal crime." 268 00:14:27,326 --> 00:14:31,038 -There is a statute for going after organizations, 269 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,082 and the acronym is RICO. 270 00:14:33,124 --> 00:14:35,168 R-I-C-O -- 271 00:14:35,209 --> 00:14:39,255 Racketeering Influenced Corrupt Organizations. 272 00:14:39,297 --> 00:14:42,925 Now, individuals within the organization 273 00:14:42,967 --> 00:14:48,347 will be charged with crimes that fall under the federal statutes. 274 00:14:48,389 --> 00:14:51,851 And we had two of the principal elements 275 00:14:51,893 --> 00:14:53,728 with a contract murder... 276 00:14:53,770 --> 00:14:55,271 [ Gunshot ] 277 00:14:55,313 --> 00:14:58,483 ...and copyright violations. 278 00:14:58,524 --> 00:15:00,109 -And that's why we were interested 279 00:15:00,151 --> 00:15:02,987 in the copyright violations and the money and the scams 280 00:15:03,029 --> 00:15:05,531 that were being done all over the United States, 281 00:15:05,573 --> 00:15:07,825 ordered by Kirtanananda Swami. 282 00:15:07,867 --> 00:15:11,829 So we decided that we were gonna get search warrants 283 00:15:11,871 --> 00:15:13,206 and get a team together, 284 00:15:13,247 --> 00:15:16,292 and we were gonna raid Dennis Gorrick's house 285 00:15:16,334 --> 00:15:19,670 because he ran the sankirtan operation. 286 00:15:19,712 --> 00:15:22,924 -I was in New York City, and I get a phone call 287 00:15:22,965 --> 00:15:27,720 saying that the FBI had been there with helicopters, 288 00:15:27,762 --> 00:15:32,600 with tractor trailers, and they were emptying out my warehouse, 289 00:15:32,642 --> 00:15:35,728 and that really freaked me out. 290 00:15:35,770 --> 00:15:38,064 -But when you open the garage door, 291 00:15:38,106 --> 00:15:40,400 it's floor to ceiling of boxes 292 00:15:40,441 --> 00:15:44,278 with the counterfeit hats and bumper stickers. 293 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:45,780 -By the end of the day, 294 00:15:45,822 --> 00:15:49,325 they had taken almost two semi loads of contraband, 295 00:15:49,367 --> 00:15:52,328 copyright infringement material, and computers. 296 00:15:52,370 --> 00:15:55,665 -I wasn't there, so I came back to the house. 297 00:15:55,706 --> 00:15:57,417 All the shelves were emptied out. 298 00:15:57,458 --> 00:16:00,628 They had taken everything they could from the house. 299 00:16:01,796 --> 00:16:02,880 It was pretty heavy. 300 00:16:02,922 --> 00:16:07,385 -Now we had all their financial records. 301 00:16:07,427 --> 00:16:09,595 -And so then the Swami decides 302 00:16:09,637 --> 00:16:11,222 he's gonna go out on a publicity tour 303 00:16:11,264 --> 00:16:12,807 and he's gonna set the record straight. 304 00:16:12,849 --> 00:16:14,350 -60 agents. 305 00:16:14,392 --> 00:16:16,561 Now, do you want to tell me 306 00:16:16,602 --> 00:16:20,565 that that would have happened to the Catholic Church? 307 00:16:20,606 --> 00:16:23,067 -Did you give the order to murder Steve Bryant? 308 00:16:23,109 --> 00:16:24,360 -[ Chuckles ] 309 00:16:24,402 --> 00:16:26,946 I'm surprised at you. 310 00:16:26,988 --> 00:16:28,656 Of course not. 311 00:16:28,698 --> 00:16:30,908 -I don't know if he'd ever really been in a situation 312 00:16:30,950 --> 00:16:32,785 where people were gonna ask him tough questions. 313 00:16:32,827 --> 00:16:34,078 -And you're not concerned 314 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,289 about all of these legal inquiries? 315 00:16:36,330 --> 00:16:37,749 -No, not at all. 316 00:16:37,790 --> 00:16:39,792 Actually, they're doing us a great favor, 317 00:16:39,834 --> 00:16:42,378 because there's been some publicity about us. 318 00:16:42,420 --> 00:16:44,630 -So you're enjoying this? -Of course. 319 00:16:44,672 --> 00:16:47,759 -Kirtanananda was talking about the sankirtan 320 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,262 and saying that he had nothing to do with it, 321 00:16:51,304 --> 00:16:54,807 that it was all me, which wasn't true 322 00:16:54,849 --> 00:16:57,560 because everything went on with Kirtanananda 323 00:16:57,602 --> 00:16:59,270 knowing about it in the community. 324 00:16:59,312 --> 00:17:03,357 I lost respect for him. 325 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:05,985 -Banwell and I had to deal with both the murders 326 00:17:06,027 --> 00:17:07,779 and the financial stuff. 327 00:17:07,820 --> 00:17:10,364 But what makes it federal is they used the mail 328 00:17:10,406 --> 00:17:11,991 and that makes it mail fraud. 329 00:17:12,033 --> 00:17:15,828 So that helped us leverage some of the other people. 330 00:17:15,870 --> 00:17:18,915 ** 331 00:17:18,956 --> 00:17:25,922 -I became formally charged with three counts of mail fraud. 332 00:17:25,963 --> 00:17:28,716 They could have charged me with 1,000 counts. 333 00:17:28,758 --> 00:17:33,137 After some time, Jeff Banwell and Sergeant Westfall 334 00:17:33,179 --> 00:17:35,390 showed up one morning and said, 335 00:17:35,431 --> 00:17:37,809 "The train's gonna be leaving soon 336 00:17:37,850 --> 00:17:39,977 and we really suggest you get on it." 337 00:17:47,235 --> 00:17:51,072 -I had a murder that I'd been investigating for several years, 338 00:17:51,114 --> 00:17:53,699 the Charles St. Denis murder. 339 00:17:53,741 --> 00:17:55,451 My prosecutor would not go forward 340 00:17:55,493 --> 00:17:56,911 because there was no body. 341 00:17:56,953 --> 00:18:01,916 We needed to get a charge immediately on Drescher 342 00:18:01,958 --> 00:18:05,128 to hold him and maybe even bring him to West Virginia. 343 00:18:05,169 --> 00:18:07,046 So I offered, 344 00:18:07,088 --> 00:18:10,216 "I'll sign a first-degree murder warrant on Thomas Drescher." 345 00:18:10,258 --> 00:18:12,552 ** 346 00:18:12,593 --> 00:18:16,055 -My dad, I didn't know whether he was dead or alive 347 00:18:16,097 --> 00:18:19,809 or really what that meant any more than he was gone. 348 00:18:19,851 --> 00:18:21,894 Was he alive? 349 00:18:21,936 --> 00:18:23,563 Was he dead? 350 00:18:23,604 --> 00:18:25,398 How does this resolve? 351 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,567 ** 352 00:18:27,608 --> 00:18:30,111 -Because of the one question about not having the body 353 00:18:30,153 --> 00:18:32,989 in the St. Denis case, we were all concerned 354 00:18:33,030 --> 00:18:35,908 that a jury might not find our case to be viable. 355 00:18:35,950 --> 00:18:40,413 So we started working on Dan Reid to cooperate. 356 00:18:40,455 --> 00:18:42,999 Dan Reid worked as a bookkeeper on the farm. 357 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:44,792 He came to believe that Charles St. Denis 358 00:18:44,834 --> 00:18:47,378 was having an affair with his wife, 359 00:18:47,420 --> 00:18:49,964 and that was hard for him to process. 360 00:18:50,006 --> 00:18:55,636 After St. Denis went missing, Dan Reid had fled. 361 00:18:55,678 --> 00:18:57,638 The two detectives, Tippin and Orozco, 362 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,349 located Dan Reid in California. 363 00:19:00,391 --> 00:19:03,269 -At the time, he had a job in Beverly Hills 364 00:19:03,311 --> 00:19:06,814 in a very exclusive law firm. 365 00:19:08,524 --> 00:19:10,318 -I remember the day that we walked in there -- 366 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,113 slick, nice leather jacket, Gucci'd out. 367 00:19:14,155 --> 00:19:15,281 You know, the beard. 368 00:19:15,323 --> 00:19:17,158 I mean, he looked like a nice kid. 369 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,869 And then the panic -- "What are you doing?" 370 00:19:19,911 --> 00:19:22,330 "You're under arrest for murder." 371 00:19:22,371 --> 00:19:31,297 ** 372 00:19:31,339 --> 00:19:34,300 -And Thomas Drescher went to trial. 373 00:19:34,342 --> 00:19:36,469 ** 374 00:19:36,511 --> 00:19:39,722 And we had all of our witnesses come in. Deborah Gere came in. 375 00:19:39,764 --> 00:19:42,433 There were some other people who came in that would testify 376 00:19:42,475 --> 00:19:45,186 that all of them believed that Thomas Drescher 377 00:19:45,228 --> 00:19:49,148 had killed Charles St. Denis and had buried the body. 378 00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:52,819 Tom White, the prosecutor, told me every day of the trial, 379 00:19:52,860 --> 00:19:54,987 he said, "I'm gonna be in there doing this 380 00:19:55,029 --> 00:19:56,697 and questioning somebody 381 00:19:56,739 --> 00:19:58,991 and the door in the back of the courtroom is gonna open 382 00:19:59,033 --> 00:20:01,619 and Charles St. Denis is gonna walk through it." 383 00:20:01,661 --> 00:20:03,162 And I said, "Trust me, Mr. White. 384 00:20:03,204 --> 00:20:05,915 Charles St. Denis is not gonna walk through that door." 385 00:20:05,957 --> 00:20:08,084 There's only been one other conviction 386 00:20:08,126 --> 00:20:10,336 in the state of West Virginia where there was no body, 387 00:20:10,378 --> 00:20:12,130 but they found Drescher guilty. 388 00:20:12,171 --> 00:20:16,259 Thomas Drescher is sentenced to life with no chance of parole. 389 00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:19,887 The attorney who had been appointed for Dan Reid said, 390 00:20:19,929 --> 00:20:21,556 "We need to talk 391 00:20:21,597 --> 00:20:24,684 because Dan Reid can help you find the body. 392 00:20:24,726 --> 00:20:26,686 We need to make a deal." 393 00:20:26,728 --> 00:20:28,813 -Daniel Reid was allowed to plead 394 00:20:28,855 --> 00:20:31,065 to a lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter 395 00:20:31,107 --> 00:20:34,193 after he agreed to show police where the body had been buried. 396 00:20:34,235 --> 00:20:39,907 -What Dan Reid testified to numerous times... 397 00:20:41,159 --> 00:20:44,746 ...he said that he called Charles St. Denis and said, 398 00:20:44,787 --> 00:20:46,873 "Let's bury the hatchet." 399 00:20:46,914 --> 00:20:48,499 And when he got out of his Blazer 400 00:20:48,541 --> 00:20:49,834 and started toward the cabin, 401 00:20:49,876 --> 00:20:52,378 Thomas Drescher was waiting for him. 402 00:20:52,420 --> 00:20:54,505 [ Gunshots ] 403 00:20:54,547 --> 00:20:56,758 Drescher looked at him and he wasn't dead. 404 00:20:57,925 --> 00:21:00,261 -Our dad was a big guy, and he started coming at him. 405 00:21:00,303 --> 00:21:04,223 -Drescher, he yelled to Dan Reid, "Give me a knife." 406 00:21:04,265 --> 00:21:07,560 Dan Reid handed the knife to Thomas Drescher 407 00:21:07,602 --> 00:21:10,104 and he plunged it into his chest. 408 00:21:10,146 --> 00:21:14,650 ** 409 00:21:14,692 --> 00:21:17,028 So they both rolled Charles St. Denis' body 410 00:21:17,070 --> 00:21:18,780 up into the plastic. 411 00:21:19,781 --> 00:21:23,034 But then St. Denis' eyes opened and he says, 412 00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:24,827 "Don't do that. You'll smother me." 413 00:21:24,869 --> 00:21:27,538 -So Tirtha smashes him in the side of the skull 414 00:21:27,580 --> 00:21:31,459 with the hammer... and he went limp. 415 00:21:31,501 --> 00:21:35,463 -They put the body in the back of Charles St. Denis' Blazer. 416 00:21:35,505 --> 00:21:40,551 They drove down over the hill where there was a reservoir. 417 00:21:40,593 --> 00:21:42,762 -And they dragged him over to the river 418 00:21:42,804 --> 00:21:44,555 where they dammed up the creek. 419 00:21:44,597 --> 00:21:46,808 -He took rocks and blocked the water 420 00:21:46,849 --> 00:21:50,269 so he could redirect it to one side of the stream. 421 00:21:50,311 --> 00:21:53,731 -Tirtha knew that if he dug the grave underneath that stream 422 00:21:53,773 --> 00:21:56,192 that a dog would never be able to smell it. 423 00:21:56,234 --> 00:21:58,152 -It's something that Thomas Drescher learned 424 00:21:58,194 --> 00:21:59,529 when he was in the Army. 425 00:21:59,570 --> 00:22:02,031 -But my dad was still breathing. 426 00:22:02,073 --> 00:22:06,536 -He started yelling out, "Don't do this. 427 00:22:06,577 --> 00:22:08,830 Don't do this," you know, again and again. 428 00:22:08,871 --> 00:22:12,667 -At that point, Thomas Drescher told Chakra, 429 00:22:12,708 --> 00:22:15,920 "Start saying your prayers. Start chanting Krishna." 430 00:22:15,962 --> 00:22:20,133 And he folded St. Denis' body up and stuffed it down in the hole 431 00:22:20,174 --> 00:22:23,052 and then covered it up with gravel and rocks 432 00:22:23,094 --> 00:22:25,138 and then took the other rocks away 433 00:22:25,179 --> 00:22:27,140 so the stream would cover the body. 434 00:22:27,181 --> 00:22:30,435 ** 435 00:22:30,476 --> 00:22:32,645 -While he was under there, there was some evidence 436 00:22:32,687 --> 00:22:36,107 that he was still alive there, trying to get out. 437 00:22:36,149 --> 00:22:42,155 ** 438 00:22:42,196 --> 00:22:45,658 -I was down around that stream 20 times. 439 00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:49,537 Never thought to look under the water. 440 00:22:51,289 --> 00:22:54,083 -The first image that I can remember seeing 441 00:22:54,125 --> 00:22:58,004 was them pulling my father's skull out of the earth. 442 00:22:58,046 --> 00:23:00,882 It was gruesome. 443 00:23:00,923 --> 00:23:07,472 ** 444 00:23:07,513 --> 00:23:14,020 ** 445 00:23:14,062 --> 00:23:15,855 -One of the things that I had to investigate 446 00:23:15,897 --> 00:23:20,359 at the state level was the complaints about 447 00:23:20,401 --> 00:23:23,029 sexual crimes against the children in the schools. 448 00:23:23,071 --> 00:23:28,785 ** 449 00:23:34,082 --> 00:23:36,375 -How widespread was the child abuse 450 00:23:36,417 --> 00:23:41,047 and why I think it was so widespread? 451 00:23:41,089 --> 00:23:44,008 It's a question I've thought about. 452 00:23:44,050 --> 00:23:52,392 ** 453 00:23:52,433 --> 00:24:00,400 ** 454 00:24:00,441 --> 00:24:04,654 -In Krishna consciousness, you would want to make sure 455 00:24:04,695 --> 00:24:09,492 that you were not attached to anything in this material world 456 00:24:09,534 --> 00:24:11,661 which would include your children. 457 00:24:11,702 --> 00:24:17,250 So your children were removed from you at 5 years old 458 00:24:17,291 --> 00:24:21,546 and then they would go off to a gurukula. 459 00:24:21,587 --> 00:24:24,632 ** 460 00:24:24,674 --> 00:24:28,177 -The issue of molestation and sexual assaults on children 461 00:24:28,219 --> 00:24:30,430 in the community was a -- was a real problem. 462 00:24:30,471 --> 00:24:34,100 The devotees would say some of the teachers 463 00:24:34,142 --> 00:24:37,311 are not mentally capable. 464 00:24:38,646 --> 00:24:41,941 -My father was no longer there to protect me. 465 00:24:41,983 --> 00:24:47,113 And they knew that probably better, a lot better than I did. 466 00:24:47,155 --> 00:24:49,615 During my time in the gurukula, 467 00:24:49,657 --> 00:24:53,953 there was rampant abuse, physical abuses, 468 00:24:53,995 --> 00:24:58,624 sexual abuses that were so normal 469 00:24:58,666 --> 00:25:02,712 and so frequent and so intensive. 470 00:25:02,754 --> 00:25:06,382 I remember it was, like, dark and everyone else was sleeping, 471 00:25:06,424 --> 00:25:08,843 and I just remember being woken up 472 00:25:08,885 --> 00:25:11,804 with something on my shoulder. 473 00:25:11,846 --> 00:25:14,015 And I asked him, you know -- 474 00:25:14,057 --> 00:25:17,018 you know, like innocent kids do, is ask straightforward, 475 00:25:17,060 --> 00:25:19,020 "What are you doing?" you know? 476 00:25:19,062 --> 00:25:21,814 ** 477 00:25:21,856 --> 00:25:25,318 And he said, "It's good for you. 478 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,945 It's helping you relax." 479 00:25:27,987 --> 00:25:32,492 And he started massaging -- massaging me there. 480 00:25:34,243 --> 00:25:37,288 My body was frozen. 481 00:25:40,291 --> 00:25:42,502 And I don't remember much after that, 482 00:25:42,543 --> 00:25:44,962 but this happened frequently. 483 00:25:45,004 --> 00:25:47,340 Like, it became a thing. 484 00:25:47,382 --> 00:25:50,760 I've been in trauma therapy 485 00:25:50,802 --> 00:25:54,013 and really spent a lot of time with these memories. 486 00:25:54,055 --> 00:25:57,350 It was just so disgusting. 487 00:25:57,392 --> 00:25:59,519 It's hard to really convey 488 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,187 the intensity of what it is for a child 489 00:26:01,229 --> 00:26:05,525 and the impact that it can echo throughout our lives, really. 490 00:26:05,566 --> 00:26:08,986 ** 491 00:26:09,028 --> 00:26:11,114 -I got enough information to get a warrant 492 00:26:11,155 --> 00:26:12,532 on one of the teachers. 493 00:26:12,573 --> 00:26:15,410 And after I arrested him, I realized 494 00:26:15,451 --> 00:26:17,829 that he was actually part of the victims' circle, 495 00:26:17,870 --> 00:26:21,541 which is not unusual in sexual assaults of young people, 496 00:26:21,582 --> 00:26:23,835 that he had been a student at the school 497 00:26:23,876 --> 00:26:27,422 and he, too, had been molested by teachers 498 00:26:27,463 --> 00:26:30,717 or people who were assigned to the school. 499 00:26:30,758 --> 00:26:32,677 So I was trying to get a handle on 500 00:26:32,719 --> 00:26:35,722 just how many people in the school 501 00:26:35,763 --> 00:26:38,641 had been molested, and I had a picture. 502 00:26:38,683 --> 00:26:40,727 It was a picture of -- of a group of kids 503 00:26:40,768 --> 00:26:43,730 standing on the steps of the Palace of Gold. 504 00:26:43,771 --> 00:26:46,816 And I said, "Could you point out how many of those kids 505 00:26:46,858 --> 00:26:48,234 had been molested?" 506 00:26:48,276 --> 00:26:50,403 And he stopped for a long time. 507 00:26:50,445 --> 00:26:52,405 And he looked and then he looked up to me and he said, 508 00:26:52,447 --> 00:26:55,074 "Well, it'd be hard to find one that wasn't." 509 00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:59,245 -The mistreatment of children problem 510 00:26:59,287 --> 00:27:02,373 was already existing to a -- to a small extent, 511 00:27:02,415 --> 00:27:05,168 even when Prabhupada was here, 512 00:27:05,209 --> 00:27:09,005 and Prabhupada made very dire statements. 513 00:27:09,047 --> 00:27:11,549 He said we should hang them. 514 00:27:11,591 --> 00:27:15,178 It was never his authorized idea 515 00:27:15,219 --> 00:27:17,096 that the children would be mistreated. 516 00:27:17,138 --> 00:27:18,598 But after he died, 517 00:27:18,639 --> 00:27:22,477 the children were severely mistreated or abused. 518 00:27:25,313 --> 00:27:28,691 -Sexuality had a very fearful element to it, 519 00:27:28,733 --> 00:27:33,279 and celibacy was, you know, the answer. 520 00:27:33,321 --> 00:27:35,948 And when you put someone who has 521 00:27:35,990 --> 00:27:43,414 that type of unresolved sexual drive in charge of children, 522 00:27:43,456 --> 00:27:48,461 it's gonna come out in a -- in a denied way. 523 00:27:48,503 --> 00:27:51,631 -There seems to be a special relationship 524 00:27:51,672 --> 00:27:53,174 with you and the young boys. 525 00:27:53,216 --> 00:27:57,136 Can you explain that? -That is love. 526 00:27:57,178 --> 00:28:01,265 Just as I love the boys, God loves -- 527 00:28:01,307 --> 00:28:04,727 God loves us and the boys love me. 528 00:28:04,769 --> 00:28:07,230 ** 529 00:28:07,271 --> 00:28:08,481 -I went to New Vrindaban. 530 00:28:08,523 --> 00:28:10,233 There's Kirtanananda driving around 531 00:28:10,274 --> 00:28:11,776 with a little boy on his lap. 532 00:28:11,818 --> 00:28:13,945 Kirtanananda had little boys in his cottage, 533 00:28:13,986 --> 00:28:15,905 little boys on his lap. 534 00:28:15,947 --> 00:28:17,657 Everybody could see he's sitting on a big seat, 535 00:28:17,698 --> 00:28:18,991 he's covered with little boys. 536 00:28:19,033 --> 00:28:20,660 What's going on here? 537 00:28:20,701 --> 00:28:23,496 It was just pedophile heaven. 538 00:28:29,877 --> 00:28:36,884 ** 539 00:28:36,926 --> 00:28:42,098 -I care deeply about justice, believe it or not. 540 00:28:42,140 --> 00:28:44,100 And because of the immersion 541 00:28:44,142 --> 00:28:46,477 that I had in the world that was going on out there, 542 00:28:46,519 --> 00:28:49,647 I cared very, very deeply about these children. 543 00:28:49,689 --> 00:28:51,899 And there was one incident in particular 544 00:28:51,941 --> 00:28:54,736 where I connected the dots about Keith Ham. 545 00:28:54,777 --> 00:28:58,114 At New Vrindaban, they had a dispute over fences. 546 00:28:58,156 --> 00:29:02,785 West Virginia can make a living doing fence law, you know? 547 00:29:02,827 --> 00:29:05,913 So I went to talk to Keith Ham about the fence. 548 00:29:07,415 --> 00:29:11,502 And when I walked in to his room, 549 00:29:11,544 --> 00:29:13,880 there was a young boy, I'd say 6, 7 years old, 550 00:29:13,921 --> 00:29:15,965 sleeping in that bed, and then there was Keith Ham, 551 00:29:16,007 --> 00:29:17,967 who was sitting or standing, is outside the bed. 552 00:29:18,009 --> 00:29:21,220 There was a look like I'd caught somebody doing something. 553 00:29:21,262 --> 00:29:22,680 And not just a look. 554 00:29:22,722 --> 00:29:25,308 There was an energetic assurance that I had walked -- 555 00:29:25,349 --> 00:29:28,019 It was like...that. 556 00:29:28,061 --> 00:29:32,106 At that moment, what I had seen would later be confirmed 557 00:29:32,148 --> 00:29:35,985 that the Swami had a propensity for young boys. 558 00:29:36,027 --> 00:29:38,529 ** 559 00:29:38,571 --> 00:29:40,364 -And he was grooming them. 560 00:29:40,406 --> 00:29:41,949 He was grooming these little boys. 561 00:29:41,991 --> 00:29:44,035 Maybe it was that you were the cutest one, 562 00:29:44,077 --> 00:29:47,163 but maybe it was also the fact that you were more vulnerable. 563 00:29:47,205 --> 00:29:50,792 -When there was some complaints that came to him, 564 00:29:50,833 --> 00:29:53,586 he had this philosophy that sex is sex. 565 00:29:53,628 --> 00:29:57,256 He would say, "So you're having your sex 566 00:29:57,298 --> 00:29:58,966 within the bounds of your marriage 567 00:29:59,008 --> 00:30:01,177 so that you can maintain your material attachments. 568 00:30:01,219 --> 00:30:03,930 And you're criticizing these guys for having," 569 00:30:03,971 --> 00:30:10,061 as he called it, "hanky panky" in the gurukula with the boys. 570 00:30:10,103 --> 00:30:13,064 It's like the pot calling the kettle black. 571 00:30:13,106 --> 00:30:15,691 I mean, these things were openly used by the teachers 572 00:30:15,733 --> 00:30:18,194 to rationalize some of their sexual abuse. 573 00:30:18,236 --> 00:30:20,738 -It's been a persistent allegation here for years 574 00:30:20,780 --> 00:30:24,033 that children are sexually used. -That is not true. 575 00:30:24,075 --> 00:30:26,369 -Unequivocally? -It's never been true. 576 00:30:26,411 --> 00:30:27,370 Unequivocally. 577 00:30:27,412 --> 00:30:36,879 ** 578 00:30:36,921 --> 00:30:39,173 -As we were moving along in our federal prosecution, 579 00:30:39,215 --> 00:30:42,176 we needed Thomas Drescher to testify against Kirtanananda. 580 00:30:42,218 --> 00:30:45,138 -Thomas Drescher is serving a sentence of life without mercy 581 00:30:45,179 --> 00:30:48,057 for the 1983 killing of Charles St. Denis. 582 00:30:48,099 --> 00:30:51,310 Despite that, Bhaktipada recently elevated him 583 00:30:51,352 --> 00:30:52,979 to the title of Swami. 584 00:30:53,020 --> 00:30:55,022 -The significance of this picture 585 00:30:55,064 --> 00:30:57,650 was the celebration of Thomas Drescher 586 00:30:57,692 --> 00:30:59,986 being elevated to the rank of Swami. 587 00:31:01,362 --> 00:31:06,075 The people who are walking along and celebrating 588 00:31:06,117 --> 00:31:08,661 so that Thomas Drescher can see out of his cell window 589 00:31:08,703 --> 00:31:11,956 and see that he is still loved. 590 00:31:11,998 --> 00:31:16,586 I think it was insurance to keep Thomas Drescher quiet, 591 00:31:16,627 --> 00:31:19,380 to not implicate Kirtanananda. 592 00:31:19,422 --> 00:31:24,427 Here is somebody who is serving life without mercy 593 00:31:24,469 --> 00:31:26,054 for murdering a devotee, 594 00:31:26,095 --> 00:31:28,639 and yet he's being elevated to the rank of Swami. 595 00:31:28,681 --> 00:31:31,100 So many people felt that it was an insult 596 00:31:31,142 --> 00:31:33,019 to the entire religion. 597 00:31:33,061 --> 00:31:35,271 ** 598 00:31:35,313 --> 00:31:39,275 In 1991, the RICO indictment was finally rendered 599 00:31:39,317 --> 00:31:41,069 by the Justice Department. 600 00:31:41,110 --> 00:31:48,743 ** 601 00:31:48,785 --> 00:31:51,996 -This summer, Bhaktipada was sentenced to 30 years 602 00:31:52,038 --> 00:31:55,875 for mail fraud, racketeering, and conspiracy to commit murder. 603 00:31:55,917 --> 00:31:57,794 He is now appealing his conviction 604 00:31:57,835 --> 00:32:00,922 and is out of prison on a quarter-million dollars bond. 605 00:32:00,963 --> 00:32:03,049 -He was convicted at that trial, 606 00:32:03,091 --> 00:32:08,012 but got a stay of his sentencing and was released. 607 00:32:12,642 --> 00:32:14,018 And he waited for his appeal, 608 00:32:14,060 --> 00:32:16,396 and his appeal was handled by Alan Dershowitz, 609 00:32:16,437 --> 00:32:21,526 the same attorney who had handled many high-profile cases. 610 00:32:21,567 --> 00:32:23,694 Alan Dershowitz did not come cheap, 611 00:32:23,736 --> 00:32:25,822 and some of the devotees at the farm 612 00:32:25,863 --> 00:32:27,448 were concerned about the amount of money 613 00:32:27,490 --> 00:32:30,910 that was being spent on Kirtanananda's criminal defense 614 00:32:30,952 --> 00:32:33,162 that would keep him from going to prison. 615 00:32:33,204 --> 00:32:40,503 Unfortunately, Alan Dershowitz's appeal was successful. 616 00:32:40,545 --> 00:32:44,632 They set aside the conviction and ordered a new trial. 617 00:32:44,674 --> 00:32:53,099 ** 618 00:32:53,141 --> 00:33:00,857 ** 619 00:33:00,898 --> 00:33:03,109 -So now Kirtanananda, 620 00:33:03,151 --> 00:33:07,572 the court had ordered him to leave New Vrindaban 621 00:33:07,613 --> 00:33:08,990 and never come back again, 622 00:33:09,031 --> 00:33:11,993 like physically never step foot there again. 623 00:33:13,244 --> 00:33:17,123 And he was being driven in a Winnebago motor home. 624 00:33:17,165 --> 00:33:21,919 The curtain to the back section of the mobile home opened up 625 00:33:21,961 --> 00:33:24,547 and the driver catches Kirtanananda, 626 00:33:24,589 --> 00:33:26,716 you know, having sex with this kid. 627 00:33:27,884 --> 00:33:31,804 -He sexually assaulted a young boy from India. 628 00:33:31,846 --> 00:33:33,681 And that shocked everyone. 629 00:33:33,723 --> 00:33:36,434 I mean, everyone was just aghast at that. 630 00:33:36,476 --> 00:33:39,437 -And that seemed to be the straw that broke the camel's back 631 00:33:39,479 --> 00:33:40,897 when it came to the devotees. 632 00:33:40,938 --> 00:33:42,273 They seemed to turn against him. 633 00:33:51,699 --> 00:33:56,245 -Kirtanananda, he separated himself from the truth 634 00:33:56,287 --> 00:33:59,916 of who Prabhupada was from the dignity 635 00:33:59,957 --> 00:34:04,253 of what a spiritual leader is. 636 00:34:04,295 --> 00:34:05,880 Part of what Prabhupada taught us, 637 00:34:05,922 --> 00:34:09,550 you have to live by social norms. 638 00:34:09,592 --> 00:34:13,262 -I would say my reaction when I heard about those things 639 00:34:13,304 --> 00:34:17,058 was probably very similar to your reaction. 640 00:34:17,100 --> 00:34:19,519 This is crazy. This is madness. 641 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,354 I mean, science shows 642 00:34:21,396 --> 00:34:25,400 that the more someone has power and -- and status 643 00:34:25,441 --> 00:34:30,071 or believes they do in an exact opposite scale, 644 00:34:30,113 --> 00:34:32,407 their empathy diminishes. 645 00:34:32,448 --> 00:34:36,202 -With pride comes the sense of invulnerability. 646 00:34:36,244 --> 00:34:42,125 And sooner or later, something trips you up as an individual, 647 00:34:42,166 --> 00:34:45,962 as a politician, as a priest, as a guru. 648 00:34:46,003 --> 00:34:50,299 At a certain point, the society 649 00:34:50,341 --> 00:34:52,885 separated itself from New Vrindaban. 650 00:34:52,927 --> 00:34:56,639 New Vrindaban became its own world. 651 00:34:56,681 --> 00:34:59,308 -The community had been expelled. 652 00:34:59,350 --> 00:35:02,186 And, unfortunately, the devotees, 653 00:35:02,228 --> 00:35:05,064 they were just swept up in this situation. 654 00:35:05,106 --> 00:35:10,570 So it was a really difficult time. 655 00:35:10,611 --> 00:35:13,740 -ISKCON, they had a big problem on their hands 656 00:35:13,781 --> 00:35:15,575 because they had been, 657 00:35:15,616 --> 00:35:19,454 up to that point, advertising New Vrindaban as the main show, 658 00:35:19,495 --> 00:35:22,123 and now all of a sudden they had to do a backflip. 659 00:35:22,165 --> 00:35:24,751 They said New Vrindaban is a rogue community. 660 00:35:24,792 --> 00:35:26,753 You know, they tried to backtrack. 661 00:35:26,794 --> 00:35:29,297 -I never thought I was on the same level as Prabhupada. 662 00:35:29,338 --> 00:35:31,090 I never thought that for a second. 663 00:35:31,132 --> 00:35:34,093 I was constantly teaching the opposite. 664 00:35:34,135 --> 00:35:37,013 But a short time later, I became a villain 665 00:35:37,055 --> 00:35:40,558 because I'd been one of the original gurus. 666 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,769 ** 667 00:35:42,810 --> 00:35:44,854 It got to the point of being a guru was almost like being 668 00:35:44,896 --> 00:35:46,439 an ex-Nazi or something. 669 00:35:46,481 --> 00:35:49,275 Like, where were you, you know, when Hitler was in power? 670 00:35:49,317 --> 00:35:51,652 And I just thought, Jesus Christ. 671 00:35:51,694 --> 00:35:54,822 You know, I just -- At that point, I just thought... 672 00:35:54,864 --> 00:35:56,324 I'm out of here. 673 00:35:56,365 --> 00:36:00,536 -In my mind, when Kirtanananda became a so-called guru, 674 00:36:00,578 --> 00:36:02,955 the gates of Hell literally opened up. 675 00:36:02,997 --> 00:36:05,083 The molesting really, really took off. 676 00:36:05,124 --> 00:36:07,293 Really became widespread. 677 00:36:07,335 --> 00:36:16,469 ** 678 00:36:16,511 --> 00:36:19,889 -Eventually it came to my attention, 679 00:36:19,931 --> 00:36:21,891 actually, through my son. 680 00:36:21,933 --> 00:36:23,518 ** 681 00:36:23,559 --> 00:36:28,398 We developed a school in France and my son was there. 682 00:36:28,439 --> 00:36:33,194 He and his friend came to me and told me 683 00:36:33,236 --> 00:36:40,159 that the teacher in that school was physically abusing them. 684 00:36:40,201 --> 00:36:43,996 When I called the person into the room 685 00:36:44,038 --> 00:36:46,499 who was the teacher at that time, 686 00:36:46,541 --> 00:36:51,003 I picked him up by the neck and lifted him off the ground. 687 00:36:51,045 --> 00:36:55,091 I was so...mad about this. 688 00:36:55,133 --> 00:36:58,428 And then I ask him to leave. 689 00:36:59,637 --> 00:37:02,098 When it comes to something like child abuse, 690 00:37:02,140 --> 00:37:05,476 there is no maybe about it. 691 00:37:05,518 --> 00:37:09,021 And so you have to decide how you're going to deal with it. 692 00:37:09,063 --> 00:37:12,692 ** 693 00:37:12,734 --> 00:37:16,529 It's always shocking, and you have to make a decision 694 00:37:16,571 --> 00:37:20,450 whether you're going to try to protect yourself 695 00:37:20,491 --> 00:37:26,539 and the movement by denying it or hitting it head-on. 696 00:37:28,166 --> 00:37:32,378 It became so much of an issue for me, 697 00:37:32,420 --> 00:37:36,340 that ultimately led to my departure from the movement. 698 00:37:36,382 --> 00:37:44,057 ** 699 00:37:44,098 --> 00:37:51,939 ** 700 00:37:51,981 --> 00:37:59,864 ** 701 00:37:59,906 --> 00:38:02,241 -We did have ISKCON sued. 702 00:38:02,283 --> 00:38:06,537 I helped collate the names of many victims. 703 00:38:06,579 --> 00:38:08,664 ** 704 00:38:08,706 --> 00:38:10,583 -One group of people raised in the schools 705 00:38:10,625 --> 00:38:14,045 run by the Hare Krishnas is suing the group for rape, 706 00:38:14,087 --> 00:38:16,422 torture, and brainwashing they allege 707 00:38:16,464 --> 00:38:18,049 they endured at the hands of teachers. 708 00:38:18,091 --> 00:38:21,469 -A large amount of money settled, 709 00:38:21,511 --> 00:38:25,014 but I wanted our day in court to speak our truth. 710 00:38:25,056 --> 00:38:26,641 I didn't care about money or this or that 711 00:38:26,682 --> 00:38:28,476 or destroying ISKCON or any of that. 712 00:38:28,518 --> 00:38:32,021 Philosophically speaking, culturally, morally speaking, 713 00:38:32,063 --> 00:38:34,774 it was shameful and it still stands 714 00:38:34,816 --> 00:38:39,487 as a huge blemish on the character of ISKCON. 715 00:38:39,529 --> 00:38:41,447 -That was a major wake-up call. 716 00:38:41,489 --> 00:38:43,533 And right on the spot, there was an organization 717 00:38:43,574 --> 00:38:45,284 created called Children of Krishna. 718 00:38:45,326 --> 00:38:47,412 We raised $100,000 in pledges, 719 00:38:47,453 --> 00:38:49,539 which, for Krishna devotees, was a lot of money. 720 00:38:49,580 --> 00:38:54,919 So in 1998, we formed this Global Child Protection Office 721 00:38:54,961 --> 00:38:56,754 to investigate any allegations of abuse 722 00:38:56,796 --> 00:38:59,298 that happened up in the past and address it. 723 00:38:59,340 --> 00:39:00,800 You know, you can't fix something 724 00:39:00,842 --> 00:39:02,135 if you don't talk about it. 725 00:39:02,176 --> 00:39:08,474 ** 726 00:39:08,516 --> 00:39:14,439 ** 727 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,775 -In Prabhupada's teachings, 728 00:39:17,817 --> 00:39:21,612 the consequences for -- for posing as a guru 729 00:39:21,654 --> 00:39:26,826 are the most severe because a false guru is misleading people 730 00:39:26,868 --> 00:39:28,911 and destroying their lives. 731 00:39:28,953 --> 00:39:35,168 ** 732 00:39:35,209 --> 00:39:41,007 ** 733 00:39:41,049 --> 00:39:43,593 -We went back to trial in 1996. 734 00:39:43,634 --> 00:39:45,553 The difference would be that in this trial, 735 00:39:45,595 --> 00:39:49,307 Kirtanananda's sexual behavior involving young children 736 00:39:49,348 --> 00:39:53,519 had turned many of his long-time devotees against him. 737 00:39:53,561 --> 00:39:55,688 And among those was Thomas Drescher. 738 00:39:55,730 --> 00:40:00,485 He'd been inundated with mail in his prison cell 739 00:40:00,526 --> 00:40:03,446 from people from the community who were talking about 740 00:40:03,488 --> 00:40:06,157 all of the things that Kirtanananda had done. 741 00:40:07,575 --> 00:40:10,745 Thomas Drescher is willing to testify to both of the murders 742 00:40:10,787 --> 00:40:12,205 and who authorized them. 743 00:40:12,246 --> 00:40:15,625 So we went to trial in 1996. 744 00:40:15,666 --> 00:40:18,378 It was a much different situation. 745 00:40:23,925 --> 00:40:29,305 ** 746 00:40:29,347 --> 00:40:34,727 ** 747 00:40:34,769 --> 00:40:38,815 -In 1996, Thomas Drescher sat on the witness stand coolly 748 00:40:38,856 --> 00:40:41,651 and looked Kirtanananda right in the eye. 749 00:40:41,692 --> 00:40:45,238 When asked who told him to kill Charles St. Denis, 750 00:40:45,279 --> 00:40:49,826 Drescher said, "Kirtanananda Bhaktipada told me to do it." 751 00:40:49,867 --> 00:40:51,119 [ Gunshots ] 752 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,621 And he was the one who had ordered him to kill 753 00:40:53,663 --> 00:40:59,711 and had paid for the murder of Steven Bryant in Los Angeles. 754 00:40:59,752 --> 00:41:01,337 [ Metal taps ] 755 00:41:01,379 --> 00:41:03,715 And that pretty much sealed the case, 756 00:41:03,756 --> 00:41:05,508 except that there was one more witness 757 00:41:05,550 --> 00:41:07,844 that was to come after Thomas Drescher, 758 00:41:07,885 --> 00:41:09,303 and that was me. 759 00:41:09,345 --> 00:41:12,014 So I got on the witness stand. 760 00:41:12,056 --> 00:41:14,892 The Dershowitz brothers stood up and said, "Your Honor, 761 00:41:14,934 --> 00:41:16,686 may we approach the bench?" 762 00:41:16,728 --> 00:41:20,940 The attorneys asked for a recess to discuss a plea agreement 763 00:41:20,982 --> 00:41:22,608 with the United States attorney, 764 00:41:22,650 --> 00:41:25,778 and Judge Merhige looked over at me and he said, 765 00:41:25,820 --> 00:41:28,781 "You know what? Think you got him this time, son." 766 00:41:28,823 --> 00:41:30,783 ** 767 00:41:30,825 --> 00:41:32,702 I don't think that Kirtanananda thought 768 00:41:32,744 --> 00:41:36,038 that he was actually gonna serve a day in prison. 769 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,375 Judge Merhige sentenced him to 360 months. 770 00:41:39,417 --> 00:41:41,878 And he said, "36 months?" 771 00:41:41,919 --> 00:41:45,757 And their lawyer leaned over and said, "No, 360 months." 772 00:41:45,798 --> 00:41:50,595 And as I looked across the room and looked at Swami's face, 773 00:41:50,636 --> 00:41:53,514 he was no longer sarcastic-looking. 774 00:41:53,556 --> 00:41:55,516 He understood now that he was going to prison, 775 00:41:55,558 --> 00:41:57,351 probably for the rest of his life. 776 00:41:57,393 --> 00:42:00,396 His rule was over. 777 00:42:00,438 --> 00:42:02,315 As Kirtanananda was being sentenced, 778 00:42:02,356 --> 00:42:05,234 I also realized that this long, 779 00:42:05,276 --> 00:42:07,111 long journey was also over for me. 780 00:42:07,153 --> 00:42:10,490 In many ways, his conduct changed my life, too, 781 00:42:10,531 --> 00:42:12,492 because I couldn't walk away 782 00:42:12,533 --> 00:42:16,496 while this man was doing what he was doing. 783 00:42:16,537 --> 00:42:18,956 One of the things that I look back on this case 784 00:42:18,998 --> 00:42:21,918 that impresses me and I'm kind of proud of 785 00:42:21,959 --> 00:42:26,089 is the fact that New Vrindaban survived Kirtanananda Swami. 786 00:42:26,130 --> 00:42:29,050 ** 787 00:42:29,092 --> 00:42:31,594 The palace is used for what it's supposed to be. 788 00:42:31,636 --> 00:42:34,764 It's a palace of worship. 789 00:42:35,723 --> 00:42:38,434 The intensity when Kirtanananda was there 790 00:42:38,476 --> 00:42:41,771 is no longer there. 791 00:42:41,813 --> 00:42:45,650 New Vrindaban no longer relies on sankirtan money, 792 00:42:45,691 --> 00:42:48,361 but they do have funds that come in. 793 00:42:48,403 --> 00:42:51,656 Ironically, underneath all of the acreage 794 00:42:51,697 --> 00:42:54,784 that New Vrindaban owns is natural gas. 795 00:42:54,826 --> 00:42:58,496 And it's a pretty lucrative deal 796 00:42:58,538 --> 00:43:01,749 because of the amount of acreage that they have. 797 00:43:01,791 --> 00:43:10,216 ** 798 00:43:10,258 --> 00:43:14,804 -Part of our history is our international society 799 00:43:14,846 --> 00:43:17,473 taking action against New Vrindaban 800 00:43:17,515 --> 00:43:19,934 and then over the years, our society 801 00:43:19,976 --> 00:43:22,603 bringing New Vrindaban back into the fold. 802 00:43:22,645 --> 00:43:24,313 Reparations being made, 803 00:43:24,355 --> 00:43:28,025 a chance for New Vrindaban to take corrective action. 804 00:43:28,067 --> 00:43:32,655 I'm very happy to be part of the history of reparation. 805 00:43:32,697 --> 00:43:35,825 I'm very happy to be coming back from betrayal. 806 00:43:35,867 --> 00:43:39,996 We're not going to deny what happened. 807 00:43:40,037 --> 00:43:43,040 But we're gonna do our very, very best 808 00:43:43,082 --> 00:43:46,002 to make sure it doesn't happen again. 809 00:43:46,044 --> 00:43:54,469 ** 810 00:43:54,510 --> 00:44:03,102 ** 811 00:44:03,144 --> 00:44:11,736 ** 812 00:44:15,406 --> 00:44:20,912 -For all the pain and suffering 813 00:44:20,953 --> 00:44:22,914 that he caused to other people. 814 00:44:25,541 --> 00:44:28,336 After I regained custody of my children, 815 00:44:28,378 --> 00:44:31,255 it was a very, very difficult time. 816 00:44:31,297 --> 00:44:35,134 They had been told, if you behave really badly, 817 00:44:35,176 --> 00:44:39,555 she'll get tired of it and send you back home. 818 00:44:39,597 --> 00:44:43,434 Their loyalty was to their dad. 819 00:44:45,937 --> 00:44:47,980 -I wanted absolutely nothing to do with her. 820 00:44:48,022 --> 00:44:52,068 I fought her every day when she got custody because I -- 821 00:44:52,110 --> 00:44:56,572 of what my father did and how he poisoned all of us against her. 822 00:44:58,116 --> 00:45:01,786 -But I want my babies back. That's what I want. 823 00:45:01,828 --> 00:45:03,830 I want my babies back. I want to be their mommy. 824 00:45:03,871 --> 00:45:06,916 I want to -- I want to love them and care for them 825 00:45:06,958 --> 00:45:11,963 and let them know that they're the most important thing to me. 826 00:45:12,004 --> 00:45:16,008 -What she did, even though it was... 827 00:45:16,050 --> 00:45:20,888 I know the hardest thing she's ever had to do... 828 00:45:20,930 --> 00:45:24,726 was to separate herself from her kids. 829 00:45:24,767 --> 00:45:27,019 She had no other choice. 830 00:45:27,061 --> 00:45:28,938 ** 831 00:45:28,980 --> 00:45:31,774 -You know, I-I came to realize something 832 00:45:31,816 --> 00:45:36,863 that I had never realized before, 833 00:45:36,904 --> 00:45:41,075 and that is that I was brave 834 00:45:41,117 --> 00:45:47,290 to get out of there and to take the risk of being killed 835 00:45:47,331 --> 00:45:50,877 in order to make a better life for my kids. 836 00:45:50,918 --> 00:45:54,130 ** 837 00:45:54,172 --> 00:45:55,465 -We believe in karma. 838 00:45:55,506 --> 00:45:57,300 You know, what goes around comes around. 839 00:45:57,341 --> 00:46:01,220 And karma is a purif-- purifying agent, too. 840 00:46:01,262 --> 00:46:02,972 ** 841 00:46:03,014 --> 00:46:06,476 I first went to the county jail in Gainesville. 842 00:46:06,517 --> 00:46:08,102 It was worse than Hell. 843 00:46:08,144 --> 00:46:12,523 And then the judge finally let me out. 844 00:46:12,565 --> 00:46:14,901 ** 845 00:46:14,942 --> 00:46:19,489 -I think it's 45 years that we've been together and married. 846 00:46:19,530 --> 00:46:22,658 We got legally married in -- 847 00:46:22,700 --> 00:46:25,620 when he was in prison. [ Laughs ] 848 00:46:27,205 --> 00:46:29,707 We've gone through Hell and back. 849 00:46:29,749 --> 00:46:32,835 And it's not as if it's all been rosy, 850 00:46:32,877 --> 00:46:36,631 but somehow or other -- I mean, I always said, 851 00:46:36,672 --> 00:46:39,008 I'm gonna be with him till we die. 852 00:46:39,050 --> 00:46:43,096 And, like, I've always stuck to that no matter what. 853 00:47:16,129 --> 00:47:18,840 -The reason why we moved away from New Vrindaban 854 00:47:18,881 --> 00:47:21,050 was because I told my mother 855 00:47:21,092 --> 00:47:23,386 that I was getting sexually interfered with. 856 00:47:23,428 --> 00:47:25,722 ** 857 00:47:25,763 --> 00:47:28,266 We moved all the way across the country. 858 00:47:28,307 --> 00:47:30,727 We didn't have things in the house 859 00:47:30,768 --> 00:47:33,855 that really reminded me of it. 860 00:47:33,896 --> 00:47:36,357 But when my father died, 861 00:47:36,399 --> 00:47:40,236 it really was the beginning of a dark time for me. 862 00:47:40,278 --> 00:47:42,905 And so it would make sense to return to the place 863 00:47:42,947 --> 00:47:46,367 where that thing happened to more deeply understand it 864 00:47:46,409 --> 00:47:50,955 and to maybe unravel the mystery that that place has. 865 00:47:50,997 --> 00:47:52,623 ** 866 00:47:52,665 --> 00:47:54,333 When I returned to New Vrindaban, 867 00:47:54,375 --> 00:47:56,419 I was talking to people around town. 868 00:47:56,461 --> 00:47:58,463 Typical conversations would be, "Who are you? 869 00:47:58,504 --> 00:48:01,883 What's your name? Where are you --" And, "I'm from here." 870 00:48:01,924 --> 00:48:03,885 And, "Oh, really? Who are your parents?" 871 00:48:03,926 --> 00:48:06,095 You know, "Oh, Chakradara. Oh, my gosh." 872 00:48:06,137 --> 00:48:08,097 You know, "Well, that's the guy that...", you know. 873 00:48:08,139 --> 00:48:10,433 And, "Oh, you went to gurukula here?" 874 00:48:10,475 --> 00:48:13,311 And word got around 875 00:48:13,352 --> 00:48:16,606 to the previous headmaster of our gurukula. 876 00:48:16,647 --> 00:48:21,069 He gave, you know, an amazing retort, 877 00:48:21,110 --> 00:48:24,322 which was that I don't know why you're blaming me 878 00:48:24,363 --> 00:48:27,617 for any of these things because, as you know, 879 00:48:27,658 --> 00:48:30,078 these things are all part of your karma. 880 00:48:30,119 --> 00:48:36,000 ** 881 00:48:36,042 --> 00:48:39,128 Well, I could deliver you a lot of your karma, too, then. 882 00:48:39,170 --> 00:48:42,340 How about I punch you in the face right now and -- 883 00:48:42,382 --> 00:48:45,885 and it's just all part of Krishna's divine plan? 884 00:48:45,927 --> 00:48:49,639 I said to myself, I want to figure out 885 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,016 what is the baby from the bathwater here? 886 00:48:52,058 --> 00:48:56,396 What is the actual tradition? What is the actual culture here? 887 00:48:56,437 --> 00:48:59,232 What is Krishna consciousness? 888 00:48:59,273 --> 00:49:02,151 ** 889 00:49:02,193 --> 00:49:06,155 And so I started all of Prabhupada books, 890 00:49:06,197 --> 00:49:09,575 and I intensively read and contemplated, meditated, 891 00:49:09,617 --> 00:49:15,415 and I came to the conclusion that this is my life. 892 00:49:15,456 --> 00:49:19,043 I'm -- I'm basically a Krishna person. 893 00:49:19,085 --> 00:49:22,422 So I decided that I wanted to regain 894 00:49:22,463 --> 00:49:24,674 some of the belonging in our family 895 00:49:24,716 --> 00:49:26,259 and these relationships, 896 00:49:26,300 --> 00:49:30,263 certainly very much so with Chaitanya Lila. 897 00:49:30,304 --> 00:49:34,892 -He shared with me the abuse that he went through as a child 898 00:49:34,934 --> 00:49:37,270 and they're horrific, really. 899 00:49:37,311 --> 00:49:40,273 Like, I've cried. 900 00:49:40,314 --> 00:49:43,943 But he has done a lot of healing. 901 00:49:43,985 --> 00:49:49,407 -With her, I've finally found a partner in life. 902 00:49:49,449 --> 00:49:50,742 -We're at the airport. 903 00:49:50,783 --> 00:49:52,702 -On our way to India 904 00:49:52,744 --> 00:49:55,788 for putting my father to rest, 905 00:49:55,830 --> 00:49:58,666 spirit to rest, and getting married -- 906 00:49:58,708 --> 00:50:03,546 two of the most major life events that we will see. 907 00:50:03,588 --> 00:50:05,923 ** 908 00:50:05,965 --> 00:50:07,884 This is Krishna's place. 909 00:50:07,925 --> 00:50:10,261 ** 910 00:50:10,303 --> 00:50:12,638 And so to me, this seemed a very natural 911 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,140 and befitting resolution. 912 00:50:14,182 --> 00:50:19,562 -[ Speaking in native language ] 913 00:50:19,604 --> 00:50:23,775 -To put my father's spirit to rest where it was wanting to go. 914 00:50:23,816 --> 00:50:30,239 ** 915 00:50:30,281 --> 00:50:33,910 -Bhima said there's a lot more to it in the Vedic culture. 916 00:50:33,951 --> 00:50:37,663 You know, there's, you know, duties as sons 917 00:50:37,705 --> 00:50:42,085 that we need to do, and it sounded right to me. 918 00:50:42,126 --> 00:50:45,129 Everything kind of fell into place. 919 00:50:45,171 --> 00:50:48,591 Yeah, we both made it here at the same time. 920 00:50:48,633 --> 00:50:51,594 It's a pretty great feeling. 921 00:50:51,636 --> 00:50:53,429 ** 922 00:50:53,471 --> 00:50:56,599 -I'm glad we could do something for him, huh? 923 00:50:56,641 --> 00:51:00,269 -[ Sniffles ] -Yeah. 924 00:51:00,311 --> 00:51:02,438 ** 925 00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:08,236 -I've struggled a lot in life to come to this point. 926 00:51:08,277 --> 00:51:10,655 This journey to Vrindaban marks the beginning 927 00:51:10,696 --> 00:51:11,989 of a new life for me. 928 00:51:12,031 --> 00:51:15,118 I've finally found a partner in life 929 00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:19,705 that naturally resonates with the Krishna part of me 930 00:51:19,747 --> 00:51:21,207 and at the same time 931 00:51:21,249 --> 00:51:23,292 the traumatic and psychological aspects 932 00:51:23,334 --> 00:51:25,169 that have come with my experience. 933 00:51:25,211 --> 00:51:31,968 ** 934 00:51:32,009 --> 00:51:35,596 -I actually saw Prabhupada when he came to visit New Vrindaban, 935 00:51:35,638 --> 00:51:39,642 and he was a person that did project authority 936 00:51:39,684 --> 00:51:42,645 and piety, theology. 937 00:51:42,687 --> 00:51:45,064 ** 938 00:51:45,106 --> 00:51:47,442 Sometimes people criticize the devotees. 939 00:51:47,483 --> 00:51:50,945 Why would you put up with so much abuse? 940 00:51:50,987 --> 00:51:52,488 People would say, "Well, they must be stupid." 941 00:51:52,530 --> 00:51:55,241 And they were not stupid. They were hopeful. 942 00:51:55,283 --> 00:51:57,243 ** 943 00:51:57,285 --> 00:52:01,122 We're all hopeful of something better. 944 00:52:01,164 --> 00:52:05,168 -I'm really hoping that resolving, finally, 945 00:52:05,209 --> 00:52:08,463 this whole long story of my father's murder 946 00:52:08,504 --> 00:52:12,341 will assuage a lot of long-felt grief 947 00:52:12,383 --> 00:52:15,303 and perhaps help a lot of us 948 00:52:15,344 --> 00:52:17,889 to see that there's a larger picture. 949 00:52:17,930 --> 00:52:23,019 ** 950 00:52:23,061 --> 00:52:26,522 [ Cheers and applause ] 951 00:52:26,564 --> 00:52:30,234 Regaining some of the belonging and these relationships 952 00:52:30,276 --> 00:52:32,361 has been tremendous for me. 953 00:52:32,403 --> 00:52:34,989 Putting my father's story to rest here 954 00:52:35,031 --> 00:52:37,867 is really a big part of our starting point. 955 00:52:37,909 --> 00:52:40,328 [ Cheers and applause ] 956 00:52:40,369 --> 00:52:43,664 It's time to build a more positive future. 957 00:52:43,706 --> 00:52:47,585 [ Chanting in native language ] 958 00:52:47,627 --> 00:52:55,843 ** 959 00:52:55,885 --> 00:53:04,310 **