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Only three months
after the shooting of John Lennon,
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President Reagan is gunned down
in Washington, D.C.
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In custody tonight,
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charged with firing the shots
at the president
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and those around him,
is a young man named John Hinckley Jr.
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Like Lennon's murder,
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the shooting is in full view
of the public,
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and the suspect is apprehended
at the scene.
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Security was extremely tight
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{\an8}as John Hinckley Jr. arrived
at the federal courthouse
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{\an8}in an armored motorcade,
surrounded by armed federal marshals.
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In another parallel to the Lennon case,
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a copy of The Catcher in the Rye
is found in Hinckley's hotel room.
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His defense team plan to prove he's
not guilty by reason of insanity.
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{\an8}Schizophrenia is considered
the most severe of the mental illnesses.
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This would refer to people
who are experiencing hearing of voices,
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that are developing false belief systems
that are becoming dominant in their life.
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Carpenter said John Hinckley
suffered from schizophrenia
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and could not conform to the law
or realize what he was doing.
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There was no assumption
that he would be found not guilty
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by reason of insanity.
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There was an assumption
that the public would be upset.
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I mean, there'd be anger.
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{\an8}The Hinckley verdict:
Innocent by reason of insanity.
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{\an8}Reacting to that verdict today,
many New Yorkers
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said the insanity defense
was just a cop-out.
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Think he sh-- he's guilty
'cause I don't believe
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in the insanity clause or whatever.
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People hate the insanity defense
being successful.
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And it seems to be taken as a given
that if it's a heinous crime,
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that the person's gotta pay for it.
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Mark David Chapman, the accused killer
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of former Beatle John Lennon
has pleaded innocent
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to the shooting by reason of insanity.
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But when Chapman was asked,
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"How do you plead to the charge
of second-degree murder?"
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the answer was,
"Not guilty by reason of insanity."
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{\an8}Chapman never denies
shooting Lennon.
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{\an8}And after much psychiatric assessment,
including hypnosis,
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his defense team believe he was insane
at the time he pulled the trigger.
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It'll be a controversial defense,
and they prepare their client for trial.
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{\an8}The law is that
if you were legally insane
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{\an8}at the time
that you killed John Lennon,
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then you must be acquitted
by reason of insanity.
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That you don't go to prison,
but instead you go to a state institution.
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- A mental hospital.
- Mental hospital. Exactly.
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Is the question in this trial going
to be his state of mind
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{\an8}the night of the shooting?
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{\an8}The only issue
in this trial, really, will be
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{\an8}whether or not he was insane
at the time of the shooting.
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{\an8}And I think that our witnesses
will establish that he was.
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{\an8}Whether or not we can get a jury
to find that he is
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{\an8}not guilty by reason
of insanity is another question.
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I found that the climate
is extremely hostile towards Mr. Chapman.
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It doesn't come as a surprise, but it is.
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Pretty much everyone was feeling
pretty emotional about this,
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and there was a lot of animosity,
obviously, towards Chapman.
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His last attorney,
he was only on it for, like,
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a couple of days before he quit
because of death threats.
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I know we got some death threats
as well through the mail.
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{\an8}You know, that Lennon was near godlike,
and how dare we,
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{\an8}you know, defend this man
who murdered him in cold blood,
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and, "You'll pay the price for this."
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The other element at that time was
the attempted assassination of Reagan.
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And that really kicked up a lot
of public sentiment
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against the insanity defense in general.
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We knew we were gonna
be facing a very, very uphill battle.
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The prosecution
doesn't accept the insanity plea.
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They believe Chapman
killed Lennon for fame.
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In the context
of this interview that I'm having now,
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I will not use the defendant's name
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{\an8}because I don't wish
to be part or parcel of any...
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situation
which brings attention to him by name.
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So, I will refer
to him repeatedly as "the defendant."
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I will not use his name.
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This defendant wanted to be arrested
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because this was what was going
to bring attention to himself.
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He didn't seek to flee the scene
of the crime.
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{\an8}He could very easily have run
to get into the subway system
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and try to flee in that way,
or flee into the park, but he didn't.
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He just stood there and waited.
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Their theory was
that Chapman was a failure,
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he hadn't succeeded in anything,
he had these delusions of grandeur,
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and he wanted a lot of publicity.
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Is it rational, is it sane for someone
to murder some other human
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in cold blood with the full knowledge
that as a result of that,
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they're likely gonna wind up
in prison for life
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or in a mental institution for life?
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So they can, you know,
have an article or two
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on the front page of the papers?
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It just does not make sense.
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The prosecution will explain to the jury
that Chapman's movements
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before the shooting show
that this was not a random act of madness,
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but instead a meticulously planned murder.
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{\an8}The gun used
to kill John Lennon was traced
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{\an8}by New York authorities
to J&S Enterprises.
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A sales receipt shows
the gun was purchased
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by Mark Chapman
on October 27th of this year.
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Guy looked like a normal
upright human being when he bought it.
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He buys it and goes out and does something
like this six weeks later.
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What the hell can you do, you know?
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What the defendant's behavior
leading up to the crime
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indicated was that he was rational.
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He had the gun-- he came to New York--
but he didn't have any bullets for it.
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Having not been able
to buy bullets in New York,
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he went to visit this
friend of his in the Atlanta, Georgia area
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and got bullets from him.
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Not only that.
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Before the murder,
he had met up with a couple of female fans
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that stood in front of the Dakota
on a regular basis trying to meet
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with John Lennon as he entered
or left his apartment building.
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So, there was no indication
that he was suffering
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from such a mental disease
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that would cause him
to not be able to function appropriately.
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But recordings made
by his defense team at Rikers Island
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before the trial reveal how
incoherent Chapman's thinking is.
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I'm under complete
understanding now of what happened,
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and it's very clear and very rational.
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It is my sincere belief
that I killed John Lennon
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to get as many people as possible
to read The Catcher in the Rye.
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{\an8}All of my efforts will now
be devoted toward this goal.
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{\an8}People ask me, you know,
"Why did he kill Lennon?" I--
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And I said,
"Well, he said, because he wanted
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to promote the reading
of The Catcher in the Rye."
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And they sort of look at me
with puzzlement, and I say,
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"Your question assumes
that there's some sort of rational reason
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for why, you know, a crazy man
kills another human in cold blood."
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I said, "You're not ever gonna
get a rational explanation
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for why a crazy person did a crazy act."
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The character in the book was a young man
in his teens called Holden Caulfield,
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who goes to New York on a weekend,
and he's disillusioned
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by what he sees as the phoniness
of the world.
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You know, as a young child,
you're told that the world works one way,
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and as you get older, you see that
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there are aspects of it
that are false and phony.
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Chapman tells his
defense team he's the Holden Caulfield
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of his generation and on a mission
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to rid the world
of people he considers phonies.
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Here's what I say about John Lennon.
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"All you need is love."
Have you ever heard that?
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Well, this is what I say to that:
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All you need is love and $250 million.
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He was the biggest,
phoniest bastard that ever lived.
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I wasn't about to let the world
endure ten more years
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of his menagerie of bullshit.
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In my view,
he was obviously insane, you know,
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when I came across him,
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and we just needed to have a testimony
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that would demonstrate
the fact that, you know,
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he was not in touch with reality, and...
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you know, is clearly mentally ill.
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You know, trying to find out
why somebody went crazy is a difficult,
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difficult thing to do.
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But there are obviously a bunch of people
who had some insights.
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So, we went about interviewing
people who had known him in the past.
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The defense team travel
to Chapman's hometown in Georgia
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and speak to childhood friends.
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Well, when I first met Mark,
everything seemed fine.
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The typical American family.
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But as time went on,
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{\an8}I noticed that something dark
was happening.
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He'd be told to "go to your room."
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And then Mark's dad would come in
with a belt and start hitting him,
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even using the buckle end--
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just go into a fit and just pound away.
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But then he would stop and leave,
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and then you could hear him downstairs
beating on his mother.
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I mean, he beat the snot out
of his mother.
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And then Mark's dad
would go to the bedroom
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or to wherever the TV was at and sit down,
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and 30 minutes later,
be a completely different person.
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It's just that little click that happened.
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I went up to his house one day,
and he said,
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"Hey, look. I've got some marijuana here."
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But then
there was mescaline that showed up,
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opium that showed up, and then the acid
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from California would show up.
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And one particular weekend,
Mark took eight hits of LSD-25,
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which was very powerful,
and disappeared for the weekend.
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Sunday evening,
I got in touch with Mark, and I said,
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"Where were you at all weekend?"
He said, "Man, you won't believe it.
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I saw Jesus Christ
and he was just beautiful,
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and he was talking to me."
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Chapman's chaotic childhood
leads him to the local church in Atlanta.
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Mark was kind of a loner
didn't have lots of friends,
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and I got the impression that
his home life was an unhappy home life.
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{\an8}He was playing around
with drugs and was very, very
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{\an8}involved in hard rock,
acid rock music.
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In the South, in those days,
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people would identify
with the local church and
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most of them would be pretty active
and pretty faithful in the church.
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Mark had no church background
that I know of.
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And so, when he professed faith in Christ,
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it was my privilege to baptize him
in this very sanctuary,
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and to shepherd him.
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He immediately found a group
of people who loved him and accepted him.
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And he was quite attracted
to one of the girls in the youth group.
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Jessica.
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I usually start by saying,
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{\an8}"I used to date Mark Chapman
who later on killed John Lennon,"
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and everybody's really shocked.
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Ex-girlfriend, Jessica Blankenship,
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might prove a key witness
at Chapman's trial.
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I was 16,
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and I was at a retreat with my church.
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Someone had invited him to come.
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I just thought he was kind of cool
and sensitive, you know.
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His feelings really came through
when he talked.
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He just had a great sense of humor.
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And I guess I was smitten.
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He was an excellent guitar player,
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and he could play anything.
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He particularly loved the Beatles
until John Lennon said
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that they were more popular
than Jesus Christ.
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He wanted to learn more about the Bible
and grow deeper in his faith.
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What the problem was,
he got very depressed.
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He would just sort of pour his heart out
about how sad he was,
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and he just didn't feel
like he could make it.
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I felt like he was having
a nervous breakdown.
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I was actually begging him
to get some psychological help,
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and he would say,
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"I don't need to talk to anybody."
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He also, at that point,
started yelling at me,
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and this was about the time I believe
the relationship started falling apart.
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The breakdown of this relationship
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means Chapman's looking for a fresh start.
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He decides to move to Hawaii.
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Think about it.
Hawaii, beautiful place to live.
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Weather's perfect. Then it would be ideal.
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It would be like the Garden of the Eden.
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But I was getting depressed again,
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and I was just sick
and tired of everything,
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things I thought were gonna be so good
and they turned out the exact opposite.
234
00:16:42,045 --> 00:16:47,259
He drove to this
beautiful spot near the ocean,
235
00:16:47,259 --> 00:16:51,763
and he took a hose
236
00:16:51,763 --> 00:16:58,687
and took it from the exhaust pipe
and back into the car.
237
00:16:58,687 --> 00:17:01,565
And then he just sat there,
waiting to die.
238
00:17:05,776 --> 00:17:10,489
It was a relief when I realized
that I was gonna be dead.
239
00:17:11,157 --> 00:17:12,492
Life sure stinks.
240
00:17:16,746 --> 00:17:19,791
The defense team
believe the suicide attempt is evidence
241
00:17:19,791 --> 00:17:21,918
of Chapman's mental health issues,
242
00:17:22,419 --> 00:17:26,631
but it only reinforces the prosecution's
belief he craves attention.
243
00:17:27,757 --> 00:17:32,304
He had engaged in what
I would call a feigned suicide attempt.
244
00:17:32,304 --> 00:17:36,224
Again, activity designed
to bring attention to himself.
245
00:17:38,143 --> 00:17:43,231
This was a 25-year-old person
who had engaged in conduct in the past--
246
00:17:43,231 --> 00:17:45,734
none of which was particularly noteworthy
247
00:17:46,234 --> 00:17:48,028
who was frustrated by that,
248
00:17:48,028 --> 00:17:52,949
and had a personality disorder that felt
that he was worthy of attention.
249
00:17:54,159 --> 00:17:59,998
It is incredibly unfortunate
that he sought to
250
00:18:00,790 --> 00:18:03,543
bring that attention
to himself by stealing
251
00:18:04,294 --> 00:18:07,172
the fame of someone like John Lennon.
252
00:18:16,806 --> 00:18:20,644
The world's media now gather
for the trial of Mark Chapman.
253
00:18:21,978 --> 00:18:24,731
They hope to finally understand
why a global icon
254
00:18:25,232 --> 00:18:27,150
has been gunned down in cold blood.
255
00:18:29,611 --> 00:18:32,280
In New York,
two dozen spectators were searched
256
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,492
and admitted to the opening
of the trial of Mark Chapman.
257
00:18:36,743 --> 00:18:39,037
It was the first day of jury selection,
258
00:18:39,037 --> 00:18:40,830
the beginning of a long trial.
259
00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:44,960
A mob of reporters and some spectators
waited to get into the courtroom.
260
00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:49,256
{\an8}I love trials.
261
00:18:50,006 --> 00:18:53,385
{\an8}I find this great opportunity
to see drama.
262
00:18:53,385 --> 00:18:56,054
{\an8}There's a certain kind
of excitement that kicks in
263
00:18:56,054 --> 00:18:58,765
{\an8}and the adrenaline goes up a notch.
264
00:19:01,268 --> 00:19:06,773
I was a rookie reporter,
and this was one of my first big stories.
265
00:19:07,357 --> 00:19:09,025
The whole world was watching.
266
00:19:09,693 --> 00:19:12,195
He really did intend to kill John Lennon.
267
00:19:12,195 --> 00:19:15,907
He really did know what he was doing
when he killed John Lennon.
268
00:19:16,491 --> 00:19:18,326
Emotions are running high
269
00:19:18,326 --> 00:19:21,371
and opinions around Chapman
remain divided.
270
00:19:22,205 --> 00:19:23,540
We love John!
271
00:19:23,540 --> 00:19:26,668
For killing the legend, a loved,
peacing man like John Lennon.
272
00:19:27,168 --> 00:19:29,421
- He should get the death penalty.
- John believed in peace.
273
00:19:29,421 --> 00:19:31,506
To anyone out there
who's a true John Lennon fan,
274
00:19:32,007 --> 00:19:33,300
don't touch the guy.
275
00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:36,052
'Cause John Lennon just wouldn't like it.
It's not what he was on about.
276
00:19:36,052 --> 00:19:37,345
John Lennon was on about forgiveness.
277
00:19:37,345 --> 00:19:40,390
People are people,
no matter what they turn out like.
278
00:19:40,390 --> 00:19:42,976
How sick-- The guy's just sick.
That's all there is to it.
279
00:19:44,477 --> 00:19:48,440
I'm sure some of his friends
would say his activity was not normal,
280
00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:52,777
but there was no evidence
to suggest that he was suffering
281
00:19:52,777 --> 00:19:56,573
{\an8}from a mental disease so severe
that he didn't know
282
00:19:56,573 --> 00:19:58,700
{\an8}what he was doing or that it was wrong.
283
00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:01,411
That is the key issue in the case.
284
00:20:02,662 --> 00:20:05,707
It was a lot of excitement
as we gathered there
285
00:20:05,707 --> 00:20:07,042
outside of that courtroom,
286
00:20:07,042 --> 00:20:11,713
waiting for the doors to open
and the games to begin.
287
00:20:12,923 --> 00:20:14,716
This was the scene on the 13th floor
288
00:20:14,716 --> 00:20:17,302
{\an8}outside Judge Dennis Edwards' courtroom.
289
00:20:17,302 --> 00:20:20,263
The hallway was crawling
with reporters and crews flown in
290
00:20:20,263 --> 00:20:23,141
from all over the world
for the sensational murder case.
291
00:20:23,808 --> 00:20:26,853
So everybody was outside of the courtroom,
292
00:20:27,354 --> 00:20:29,397
waiting for the doors to open.
293
00:20:30,649 --> 00:20:34,277
But after an hour went by and even more,
294
00:20:34,778 --> 00:20:36,988
we began to worry
that something was going on
295
00:20:36,988 --> 00:20:38,782
and we were not a part of it.
296
00:20:44,871 --> 00:20:48,625
The judge decided
in his discretion to close the courtroom.
297
00:20:48,625 --> 00:20:51,920
So the only people that were there
were myself,
298
00:20:53,004 --> 00:20:57,425
the senior prosecutor,
the defense attorneys and the judge.
299
00:20:58,802 --> 00:21:01,304
Behind the closed doors of the courtroom,
300
00:21:01,304 --> 00:21:03,515
events take an unexpected turn.
301
00:21:05,225 --> 00:21:09,854
Chapman has pleaded guilty.
And we were going, "What?"
302
00:21:12,357 --> 00:21:15,402
Even more bizarre
is the reason Chapman gives
303
00:21:15,402 --> 00:21:17,404
for his sudden guilty plea.
304
00:21:18,613 --> 00:21:22,409
{\an8}He said God came to him in his cell
and told him to plead guilty,
305
00:21:23,743 --> 00:21:26,621
{\an8}and that he felt a great sense
of relief after that.
306
00:21:28,623 --> 00:21:30,792
I'm sitting in front of the radio,
307
00:21:30,792 --> 00:21:32,502
listening to rock music,
308
00:21:33,336 --> 00:21:35,714
{\an8}and I just felt the Holy Spirit talk
to my heart.
309
00:21:35,714 --> 00:21:41,177
And I knew that evening, you know,
the Lord wanted me to plead guilty.
310
00:21:41,678 --> 00:21:44,556
{\an8}But I didn't want to.
I wanted to go ahead with it.
311
00:21:46,808 --> 00:21:48,810
We told the judge that it was, you know,
312
00:21:48,810 --> 00:21:50,729
further evidence of his insanity.
313
00:21:51,605 --> 00:21:55,609
And that's when the judge said,
"I have relatives who believe they speak
314
00:21:55,609 --> 00:21:58,403
with God every day, and I'm not
about to say that they're insane."
315
00:21:58,403 --> 00:22:00,363
And that was pretty much the end of it.
316
00:22:00,947 --> 00:22:03,617
{\an8}God told him to do it.
That's why Mark David Chapman
317
00:22:03,617 --> 00:22:06,411
{\an8}claims he switched his plea
from innocent to guilty
318
00:22:06,411 --> 00:22:08,204
in the killing
of former Beatle John Lennon.
319
00:22:09,789 --> 00:22:12,459
If a judge has a defendant
before him who's willing
320
00:22:12,459 --> 00:22:18,048
to plead guilty and forgo a trial,
from the judge's perspective, that's fine.
321
00:22:21,218 --> 00:22:23,053
To some extent,
I wasn't surprised, I mean,
322
00:22:23,053 --> 00:22:26,306
'cause he had talked earlier before
323
00:22:26,306 --> 00:22:29,768
about how he was afraid
that if he went to a mental hospital,
324
00:22:30,518 --> 00:22:32,562
he was gonna be surrounded
by demons everywhere.
325
00:22:33,188 --> 00:22:34,481
And he was just adamant:
326
00:22:34,481 --> 00:22:37,692
He did not want to go
to a mental hospital,
327
00:22:38,318 --> 00:22:41,404
even though he was obviously crazy.
328
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,659
Chapman's plea cuts off a trial
that could have revealed his reasons
329
00:22:45,659 --> 00:22:49,120
for pumping four bullets into one
of the greatest stars of modern music.
330
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:50,497
Defense attorney Jonathan Marks
331
00:22:50,497 --> 00:22:53,541
said he was very disappointed
by his client's decision.
332
00:22:53,541 --> 00:22:56,419
{\an8}Was greatly looking forward
to what would have been
333
00:22:56,419 --> 00:23:01,633
{\an8}I think a very exciting
and interesting and useful trial.
334
00:23:01,633 --> 00:23:03,051
Because I think
that there are a lot of people
335
00:23:03,051 --> 00:23:04,511
who would have been educated about--
336
00:23:05,595 --> 00:23:08,431
about Mark Chapman and about
the insanity defense as a result of it.
337
00:23:08,431 --> 00:23:10,559
- Do you think he is insane?
- Yes, I certainly do.
338
00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:12,394
- There's no doubt in my mind about that.
- Legally insane?
339
00:23:12,394 --> 00:23:13,603
Legally insane. That's correct.
340
00:23:24,823 --> 00:23:29,619
Yeah, obviously, the psychiatric testimony
would have been critical.
341
00:23:30,328 --> 00:23:35,375
The prosecution-- their description
that he was seeking attention,
342
00:23:35,875 --> 00:23:38,044
that he had these delusions of grandeur--
343
00:23:38,545 --> 00:23:42,382
yes, it was a partial description
of Chapman and his conduct,
344
00:23:42,382 --> 00:23:44,968
but it was by no means a full picture.
345
00:23:45,635 --> 00:23:49,931
The depths of his insanity
were far greater
346
00:23:49,931 --> 00:23:51,433
than they were willing to acknowledge.
347
00:23:54,728 --> 00:23:57,439
Dr. Liza Gold is a forensic psychiatrist
348
00:23:57,439 --> 00:23:59,816
specializing in the insanity defense.
349
00:24:00,775 --> 00:24:02,944
She wasn't involved in Chapman's case,
350
00:24:03,445 --> 00:24:06,114
but assesses decisions made at the time.
351
00:24:06,740 --> 00:24:09,743
The lawyer said,
"I don't think he's competent."
352
00:24:10,285 --> 00:24:13,204
I'm not sure why a judge would say,
353
00:24:13,204 --> 00:24:15,665
"Well, I think he is." He's a judge.
354
00:24:15,665 --> 00:24:17,542
He's not a mental health professional.
355
00:24:17,542 --> 00:24:20,045
I would have voted for him
to get another competency hearing.
356
00:24:23,089 --> 00:24:25,634
I would want someone to ask him, you know,
357
00:24:25,634 --> 00:24:28,261
"Why are you changing your mind?"
358
00:24:28,261 --> 00:24:33,058
My suspicion is that he was starting
to fray under the stress
359
00:24:33,058 --> 00:24:36,436
of an upcoming high-profile media circus.
360
00:24:38,021 --> 00:24:40,440
Awaiting sentencing at Rikers Island,
361
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,236
the full extent of Chapman's mental state
is becoming apparent.
362
00:24:45,695 --> 00:24:48,240
This is a memo I wrote to the file.
363
00:24:48,949 --> 00:24:54,079
"On July 12, 1981, Mark Chapman
underwent a violent psychotic episode
364
00:24:54,079 --> 00:24:56,873
at Rikers Island Prison Hospital.
365
00:24:57,374 --> 00:24:59,584
He threw a chair at a television set
366
00:24:59,584 --> 00:25:03,213
and taunted in a high-pitched voice
saying that he was a demon.
367
00:25:03,964 --> 00:25:06,675
He was then locked in his cell
and began jumping around,
368
00:25:06,675 --> 00:25:10,804
climbing the bars of his cell,
and screeching and hooting like a monkey."
369
00:25:13,390 --> 00:25:15,517
By the time I saw him,
he had been medicated
370
00:25:15,517 --> 00:25:17,811
with a powerful antipsychotic drug.
371
00:25:17,811 --> 00:25:21,898
He told me that he was possessed
by two demons.
372
00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:25,443
He had already pleaded guilty.
373
00:25:25,443 --> 00:25:28,280
He had nothing to gain by this.
374
00:25:29,364 --> 00:25:31,324
I thought that
was pretty powerful evidence
375
00:25:31,324 --> 00:25:33,326
for again, his insanity.
376
00:25:39,541 --> 00:25:41,585
In the months
after the shooting,
377
00:25:41,585 --> 00:25:45,297
Yoko is still coming to terms
with the sudden loss of John.
378
00:25:45,922 --> 00:25:48,633
We were doing very well
in New York together,
379
00:25:49,384 --> 00:25:50,802
and that's gone, you know.
380
00:25:50,802 --> 00:25:54,180
And the fact
that he was gone so suddenly too,
381
00:25:54,180 --> 00:25:58,226
I think that affected me
because if it was a slow process,
382
00:25:58,226 --> 00:26:00,145
we could have talked about it or anything.
383
00:26:00,645 --> 00:26:05,859
But the last John I remember
is a very gregarious,
384
00:26:06,484 --> 00:26:08,945
energetic, high-spirited guy.
385
00:26:16,828 --> 00:26:20,081
Mark Chapman now appears
in public for sentencing.
386
00:26:20,790 --> 00:26:23,001
It's a final chance for his legal team
387
00:26:23,001 --> 00:26:26,213
to request leniency based
on his mental health.
388
00:26:27,005 --> 00:26:29,424
Authorities take no chances with Chapman.
389
00:26:29,424 --> 00:26:32,177
Figuring there are too many
die-hard Lennon fans around,
390
00:26:32,677 --> 00:26:36,681
Chapman arrived at court this morning
unseen under tight security.
391
00:26:36,681 --> 00:26:38,350
When the defendant was sentenced,
392
00:26:38,350 --> 00:26:42,729
the courtroom was open, so the members
of the public packed the courtroom.
393
00:26:43,688 --> 00:26:47,108
{\an8}The first couple of rows
in the courtroom filled with reporters
394
00:26:47,108 --> 00:26:48,610
{\an8}and members of the press.
395
00:26:48,610 --> 00:26:51,196
{\an8}Guards used
metal detectors to search everyone
396
00:26:51,196 --> 00:26:52,739
who entered the courtroom.
397
00:26:52,739 --> 00:26:54,115
Inside, Mark David Chapman,
398
00:26:54,115 --> 00:26:55,742
wearing a bulletproof vest
under his shirt,
399
00:26:55,742 --> 00:26:59,579
{\an8}sat clutching a paperback copy
of J. D. Salinger's Catcher in the Rye.
400
00:27:00,205 --> 00:27:03,375
{\an8}We'd seen Chapman
in the initial arraignment,
401
00:27:03,375 --> 00:27:06,628
and we'd seen Chapman
after he had pleaded guilty.
402
00:27:07,254 --> 00:27:11,216
The sentencing became
an opportunity to actually hear him.
403
00:27:11,216 --> 00:27:13,426
Chapman made
no reference to the man he killed
404
00:27:13,426 --> 00:27:16,513
when he took the judge up on his offer
to address the court.
405
00:27:16,513 --> 00:27:19,432
Instead, Chapman read a passage
from the book he's carried
406
00:27:19,432 --> 00:27:21,601
with him through most
of the court proceedings,
407
00:27:21,601 --> 00:27:23,937
J. D. Salinger's Catcher in the Rye.
408
00:27:26,273 --> 00:27:28,275
He never articulates a reason
409
00:27:28,275 --> 00:27:32,529
why publicizing the book
is such a good thing.
410
00:27:34,489 --> 00:27:36,533
He felt this book was so important
411
00:27:37,617 --> 00:27:40,453
that it was his statement
to commit an act like this.
412
00:27:41,162 --> 00:27:42,622
{\an8}You wanna know something?
413
00:27:43,415 --> 00:27:46,209
{\an8}Everybody on the case read it but me.
414
00:27:47,210 --> 00:27:48,753
{\an8}I just didn't buy it.
415
00:27:50,714 --> 00:27:54,509
This is the first time I'm admitting
publicly that I did not read this book.
416
00:27:57,095 --> 00:27:59,806
{\an8}He tries to get his name changed
to Holden Caulfield.
417
00:27:59,806 --> 00:28:04,185
{\an8}You know,
he's trying to be those people.
418
00:28:04,185 --> 00:28:06,187
There is really-- isn't a rational reason
419
00:28:06,187 --> 00:28:08,732
for thinking you're gonna turn
into somebody else,
420
00:28:08,732 --> 00:28:11,443
but it says how much he doesn't
want to be him.
421
00:28:15,906 --> 00:28:18,033
Today, two of Chapman's psychiatrists
422
00:28:18,033 --> 00:28:19,534
urged more treatment for him.
423
00:28:19,534 --> 00:28:22,120
They got a shrink that said he was crazy,
424
00:28:23,204 --> 00:28:26,458
so we got a shrink
that said he's not crazy.
425
00:28:26,958 --> 00:28:29,794
Then they got another shrink
to say he's crazy,
426
00:28:29,794 --> 00:28:32,047
and we got another one to say he's not.
427
00:28:32,631 --> 00:28:36,009
All I know is, I spoke to a lot
of psychiatrists on the job,
428
00:28:36,885 --> 00:28:39,638
and most of them are crazy themselves.
429
00:28:39,638 --> 00:28:41,306
Today, Mark David Chapman was sentenced
430
00:28:41,306 --> 00:28:42,766
to 20 years to life for the murder
431
00:28:42,766 --> 00:28:44,684
- of former Beatle John Lennon.
- ...Chapman was sentenced
432
00:28:44,684 --> 00:28:47,062
to 20 years to life for the murder
of John Lennon.
433
00:28:47,062 --> 00:28:49,105
There was also
no question he was criminally responsible
434
00:28:49,105 --> 00:28:50,774
for a premeditated act of murder.
435
00:28:51,942 --> 00:28:55,237
The defense attorney didn't
dispute the facts, just the conclusion.
436
00:28:55,237 --> 00:28:56,738
Absolutely.
It certainly was carefully planned.
437
00:28:56,738 --> 00:28:59,532
It was well carried out.
It was intentional. It was also insane.
438
00:28:59,532 --> 00:29:01,243
You are Marks, right?
439
00:29:01,910 --> 00:29:05,830
At that point, Jonathan and I both
knew he was gonna be in prison
440
00:29:05,830 --> 00:29:08,959
for the rest of his life,
and that if he was in prison,
441
00:29:08,959 --> 00:29:12,462
he wasn't gonna be getting
any psychiatric treatment.
442
00:29:12,462 --> 00:29:14,965
And that didn't seem
like the right result to me.
443
00:29:22,305 --> 00:29:26,017
Yoko remains at
the Dakota building with their son, Sean,
444
00:29:26,518 --> 00:29:28,395
trying to process what's happened.
445
00:29:30,272 --> 00:29:33,984
The only thing that I regret
is the fact that John had to die
446
00:29:33,984 --> 00:29:35,402
the way he did, you know.
447
00:29:35,902 --> 00:29:39,197
And some people say
if John was not in America,
448
00:29:39,781 --> 00:29:45,412
if he was in a-- Britain, for instance,
he wouldn't have been shot to death.
449
00:29:45,412 --> 00:29:47,831
Maybe we should have been more careful.
450
00:29:52,002 --> 00:29:53,253
After John died,
451
00:29:53,253 --> 00:29:56,006
it was such an enormous shock
for all of us.
452
00:29:56,590 --> 00:29:58,258
We were all pretty numb.
453
00:29:58,884 --> 00:30:01,887
Yoko was quite a pillar
of strength in that time.
454
00:30:01,887 --> 00:30:05,849
And John did not die
because he committed suicide
455
00:30:05,849 --> 00:30:09,936
or he was drugged or--
or he w-- he had a heart attack.
456
00:30:09,936 --> 00:30:12,564
No, John was killed,
457
00:30:13,064 --> 00:30:16,401
and it was very important
for me to show that to the world.
458
00:30:17,277 --> 00:30:22,073
And both John and I were always
trying to make a peaceful world.
459
00:30:22,699 --> 00:30:27,037
And it's very ironical that John,
who loved peace so much,
460
00:30:27,037 --> 00:30:28,997
died in such a violent way.
461
00:30:30,665 --> 00:30:34,544
I remember Yoko saying that
when the leader with the flag goes down,
462
00:30:35,295 --> 00:30:37,923
someone else has
to pick up that flag and keep going.
463
00:30:40,550 --> 00:30:41,718
Yoko eventually found a way
464
00:30:41,718 --> 00:30:44,888
of turning John's death
into a force for good.
465
00:30:45,388 --> 00:30:48,266
When she shared the picture
of John's bloody glasses
466
00:30:48,266 --> 00:30:49,392
as an album cover,
467
00:30:49,392 --> 00:30:52,729
a lot of people were very horrified
that she could do something like that.
468
00:30:53,521 --> 00:30:57,943
She called me that morning to help her
take the picture of the glasses.
469
00:30:58,902 --> 00:31:01,154
I went to the Dakota
and I set up some lights,
470
00:31:01,154 --> 00:31:04,741
and she wanted to have the glasses
on a windowsill with a glass of water,
471
00:31:04,741 --> 00:31:07,369
and Central Park on the other side
of the window.
472
00:31:09,037 --> 00:31:12,582
I felt it was her picture to take,
and so I took my other camera
473
00:31:12,582 --> 00:31:14,960
and took a picture
of her taking the picture.
474
00:31:15,877 --> 00:31:18,505
Now, when you look
at that picture of the glasses,
475
00:31:18,505 --> 00:31:21,091
you feel that horror.
476
00:31:21,091 --> 00:31:25,595
And that is one tiny bit
of what Yoko actually feels,
477
00:31:25,595 --> 00:31:26,680
because she was there.
478
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:28,181
She saw the glasses happen.
479
00:31:28,765 --> 00:31:31,101
But if you feel that bad looking
at a picture of it,
480
00:31:31,101 --> 00:31:34,688
you can imagine a little bit
of how Yoko's feeling.
481
00:31:37,148 --> 00:31:41,444
The glasses that he was wearing
in the last moment,
482
00:31:42,404 --> 00:31:47,450
it was a kind of statement
about how important to have gun control.
483
00:31:53,707 --> 00:31:55,458
Something has to be done about the guns,
484
00:31:55,458 --> 00:31:59,170
gun control,
and the minds of this country,
485
00:31:59,170 --> 00:32:00,881
the people who carry guns.
486
00:32:00,881 --> 00:32:02,465
It's horrible.
487
00:32:02,465 --> 00:32:06,553
If Chapman had a knife instead of a gun,
John Lennon might still be alive.
488
00:32:07,262 --> 00:32:11,725
Guns are very lethal.
There's no turning back.
489
00:32:13,351 --> 00:32:17,480
{\an8}The final decision to do it
can actually be quite impulsive.
490
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,816
And that's what appeared
to happen with Chapman.
491
00:32:25,196 --> 00:32:28,783
Chapman has spent
nearly ten years in solitary confinement
492
00:32:28,783 --> 00:32:31,745
when he accepts an offer
to be interviewed in prison
493
00:32:31,745 --> 00:32:34,331
by US talk show host, Larry King.
494
00:32:34,331 --> 00:32:37,417
{\an8}Tonight,
12 years ago, the music died
495
00:32:37,417 --> 00:32:41,296
{\an8}when Mark David Chapman shot
and killed former Beatle John Lennon...
496
00:32:42,297 --> 00:32:45,634
{\an8}It's the first time
the American public has heard directly
497
00:32:45,634 --> 00:32:47,135
from John Lennon's killer.
498
00:32:47,844 --> 00:32:52,224
Mark David Chapman joins us
from Attica Correctional Facility on this,
499
00:32:52,224 --> 00:32:55,435
the 12th anniversary
of John Lennon's death.
500
00:32:55,435 --> 00:32:58,521
{\an8}Mark, why now?
Why tell the story now?
501
00:32:59,606 --> 00:33:01,566
{\an8}Well, Larry, I'm well now.
502
00:33:01,566 --> 00:33:05,070
{\an8}I've had a number of years of--
of wellness.
503
00:33:05,904 --> 00:33:07,072
{\an8}I feel good.
504
00:33:07,072 --> 00:33:10,784
{\an8}There's always been things inside
of me that I wanted to get out,
505
00:33:10,784 --> 00:33:13,078
{\an8}to tell people why I did what I did.
506
00:33:14,329 --> 00:33:16,498
Back then, I was lost.
507
00:33:17,123 --> 00:33:20,919
And I didn't know who I was, but now I do.
508
00:33:21,795 --> 00:33:26,758
{\an8}Therefore,
you have to have daily regrets.
509
00:33:28,552 --> 00:33:31,930
{\an8}I have regrets. I'm sorry for what I did.
510
00:33:33,056 --> 00:33:36,768
{\an8}I realize now
that I really ended a man's life.
511
00:33:37,477 --> 00:33:39,854
{\an8}Then, he was an album cover to me.
512
00:33:39,854 --> 00:33:42,607
{\an8}He didn't exist,
even when I met him earlier that day
513
00:33:42,607 --> 00:33:46,236
{\an8}when he signed the album for me,
which he did very graciously.
514
00:33:46,987 --> 00:33:50,907
{\an8}And he was not a phony, by the way.
He was very patient.
515
00:33:50,907 --> 00:33:52,492
I just saw him as a--
516
00:33:53,577 --> 00:33:57,080
- as a two-dimensional celebrity...
- Okay.
517
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:58,707
{\an8}- ...with no real feelings.
- What cured
518
00:33:58,707 --> 00:34:00,917
{\an8}what you believe was schizophrenia?
519
00:34:01,793 --> 00:34:07,424
{\an8}Well, not medication and not doctors,
but the Lord.
520
00:34:07,424 --> 00:34:10,093
Mark David Chapman
was a failure in his own mind.
521
00:34:11,428 --> 00:34:14,681
He wanted to become
somebody important, Larry.
522
00:34:15,557 --> 00:34:18,268
He didn't know how
to handle being a nobody.
523
00:34:18,268 --> 00:34:22,771
He tried to be a somebody
through his years.
524
00:34:22,771 --> 00:34:25,733
But as he progressively got worse--
525
00:34:25,733 --> 00:34:27,693
And I believe I was
schizophrenic at the time.
526
00:34:27,693 --> 00:34:29,528
No one can tell me I wasn't.
527
00:34:29,528 --> 00:34:34,326
Although I was responsible,
Mark David Chapman struck out
528
00:34:34,326 --> 00:34:36,661
at something he perceived to be phony,
529
00:34:36,661 --> 00:34:39,831
something he was angry at,
to become something he wasn't,
530
00:34:39,831 --> 00:34:41,041
to become somebody.
531
00:34:41,624 --> 00:34:43,919
Chapman says he's a changed man,
532
00:34:43,919 --> 00:34:46,796
a born-again Christian,
sorry for what he did.
533
00:34:49,132 --> 00:34:53,260
Now for the first time,
and after almost 20 years in prison,
534
00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:57,390
Chapman goes before the parole board
today seeking his freedom.
535
00:34:58,016 --> 00:34:59,976
Yoko Ono wrote to the parole board
536
00:34:59,976 --> 00:35:04,731
that "should Chapman be released,
myself and John's two sons Sean and Julian
537
00:35:04,731 --> 00:35:07,275
would not feel safe
for the rest of our lives."
538
00:35:07,275 --> 00:35:09,486
Should Mark David Chapman be forgiven?
539
00:35:16,493 --> 00:35:19,788
I know that the pope went to the jail
540
00:35:19,788 --> 00:35:26,336
and-- visited the jail
and forgave this person
541
00:35:26,336 --> 00:35:29,256
who was trying to assassinate him,
something like that.
542
00:35:29,256 --> 00:35:30,715
But I'm not a pope.
543
00:35:31,341 --> 00:35:35,470
And it's very difficult for me
to forgive what happened.
544
00:35:36,429 --> 00:35:39,057
{\an8}This is Mark David Chapman's
third parole board hearing.
545
00:35:39,057 --> 00:35:40,725
{\an8}He is now 49 years old
546
00:35:40,725 --> 00:35:44,312
{\an8}an inmate at Attica State Prison
for nearly 24 years.
547
00:35:45,105 --> 00:35:48,400
Chapman has been eligible
for parole since the year 2000
548
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,820
and at every opportunity it's been denied.
549
00:35:52,487 --> 00:35:55,949
I think it's just terrible that someone
who killed a member of the Beatles
550
00:35:55,949 --> 00:35:59,369
is going to potentially
be let out of prison.
551
00:36:01,788 --> 00:36:03,331
I do still see him.
552
00:36:04,082 --> 00:36:06,209
He's paid a bigger penalty
than a lot of people realize
553
00:36:06,209 --> 00:36:09,004
because he's having
to live in isolation in prison.
554
00:36:09,713 --> 00:36:12,507
He can't even go to chapel services
because of fear of harm
555
00:36:12,507 --> 00:36:14,426
to him from other prisoners.
556
00:36:17,304 --> 00:36:18,930
Under any other circumstance,
557
00:36:18,930 --> 00:36:21,558
{\an8}he would have been tried
as an insane person.
558
00:36:21,558 --> 00:36:25,061
When he talked about the struggle
and the compulsion that he had,
559
00:36:25,061 --> 00:36:27,063
we'd call that a psychosis.
560
00:36:28,732 --> 00:36:30,734
If he had shot somebody who wasn't famous,
561
00:36:30,734 --> 00:36:34,237
I don't think he'd be in prison today.
But he shot the wrong man.
562
00:36:35,906 --> 00:36:38,700
I'm absolutely convinced
that he's no longer dangerous.
563
00:36:40,410 --> 00:36:43,038
The man who tried
to kill President Reagan,
564
00:36:43,038 --> 00:36:46,333
he just was released
and he was judged to be insane.
565
00:36:47,292 --> 00:36:51,171
John Hinckley Jr.
was found not guilty by reason of insanity
566
00:36:51,171 --> 00:36:53,215
for the shooting of President Reagan.
567
00:36:53,215 --> 00:36:55,383
John Hinckley Jr. will be freed
568
00:36:55,383 --> 00:37:00,013
after 35 years and released
to live with his mother.
569
00:37:00,764 --> 00:37:03,600
{\an8}He was successfully treated
in a psychiatric hospital
570
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:06,770
{\an8}and is no longer deemed
a danger to society.
571
00:37:07,437 --> 00:37:12,150
{\an8}I'm here today to call
on the New York State Parole Board
572
00:37:12,150 --> 00:37:16,571
{\an8}to deny the release of Mark Chapman.
573
00:37:17,405 --> 00:37:20,242
{\an8}Mark Chapman meanwhile
remains in prison
574
00:37:20,242 --> 00:37:22,953
{\an8}with limited access
to psychiatric treatment.
575
00:37:25,789 --> 00:37:28,667
{\an8}You know, I try to have
compassion for all my clients,
576
00:37:29,334 --> 00:37:30,835
{\an8}you know, and sometimes that's--
577
00:37:30,835 --> 00:37:33,505
that's harder to do than other times.
578
00:37:33,505 --> 00:37:35,590
And I had compassion for him.
579
00:37:35,590 --> 00:37:37,551
I mean, who could explain
why somebody goes crazy?
580
00:37:37,551 --> 00:37:41,429
I mean, I don't think
he wanted to c-- You know,
581
00:37:41,429 --> 00:37:42,722
if he'd had a choice,
582
00:37:42,722 --> 00:37:47,310
I don't think he would have chosen
to be crazy, but he was, you know.
583
00:37:47,310 --> 00:37:52,107
And so I had compassion
for him because of that.
584
00:37:57,737 --> 00:38:00,323
John Lennon died over 40 years ago,
585
00:38:01,616 --> 00:38:05,579
but the words from that final interview
still resonate today.
586
00:38:07,664 --> 00:38:10,458
{\an8}Seemed like
the underlying theme to the universe,
587
00:38:10,458 --> 00:38:13,753
{\an8}or to everything that was worthwhile,
588
00:38:14,254 --> 00:38:16,882
got down to this love, love, love thing.
589
00:38:17,591 --> 00:38:19,467
And it was the struggle to--
590
00:38:20,218 --> 00:38:23,847
to love, be loved, and express that.
591
00:38:23,847 --> 00:38:26,892
You know, there's something
about love that's fantastic.
592
00:38:27,809 --> 00:38:30,979
I want to be as loving as possible.
593
00:38:34,441 --> 00:38:38,361
I still miss him, especially now,
because of--
594
00:38:38,361 --> 00:38:45,285
The world is not quite right
and everybody seems to be suffering.
595
00:38:46,661 --> 00:38:49,247
And if he was here,
it would have been difficult--
596
00:38:49,247 --> 00:38:50,707
different, I think.
597
00:38:56,379 --> 00:38:59,424
When you think of your dad now,
598
00:38:59,424 --> 00:39:02,802
what are the most wonderful memories
that come up for you?
599
00:39:02,802 --> 00:39:04,012
What is it that you really go,
600
00:39:04,012 --> 00:39:06,473
"Yeah, that's the essence
of my relationship with my father?"
601
00:39:10,185 --> 00:39:15,148
Footage of just me and my father,
just like-- I'd always sit on his lap.
602
00:39:15,148 --> 00:39:16,566
You know, just being together.
603
00:39:16,566 --> 00:39:19,027
'Cause that was what it was like.
We'd always be together.
604
00:39:22,948 --> 00:39:25,700
You know, I just knew he was there,
and I knew he was my father...
605
00:39:28,036 --> 00:39:29,454
and I knew I loved him.
606
00:39:33,416 --> 00:39:35,919
What do you think your dad's
biggest contribution was?
607
00:39:36,628 --> 00:39:40,006
His music affected everybody,
608
00:39:41,383 --> 00:39:43,677
almost everybody in the entire world.
609
00:39:43,677 --> 00:39:48,848
I mean-- And it's amazing,
the impact that music can have on people.
610
00:39:49,891 --> 00:39:51,476
And his contribution to you?
611
00:39:52,060 --> 00:39:53,562
To me, he was my father.