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-[quirky pop]
-[mouse clicking]

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-[eraser shuffles]
-[mouse clicks]

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[determined music playing]

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Well, when I was running Microsoft…

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Ladies and gentlemen,
please welcome Bill Gates.

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[audience applauds]

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[Gates] …you know,
we were incredibly successful,

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but I understood then
that there'd be a range of opinions.

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[man 1] Log on to the Internet

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and you'll soon find
what some people think of Bill Gates.

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-You can punch him.
-[punches thud]

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[man 1] You can even put a pie in his eye.

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It was later, you know,
when I'm full time doing philanthropy,

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it really started getting crazy.

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Is it true
if you dropped a 10,000 dollar bill,

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it wasn't worth your time
to bend down to pick it up again?

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-No.
-[audience chuckles]

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[Gates] You know, extreme wealth

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certainly triggers questions
about your motives,

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but, you know,
this is on a whole new level.

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[dramatic sting]

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[producer] Uh, let's go with number one.
Let's see.

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[inquisitive music playing]

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"Bill Gates and the liberal world order
are orchestrating a scheme

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to force people to eat bugs." Hmm.

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"Their agenda is
to weaken the lower classes

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with protein-poor insect diets."

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[chef chuckles maniacally]

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Uh, I'd feel bad if I was doing that.

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[producer] Okay. Next.

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Oh, this is even better.
"Bill Gates is a shapeshifting lizard,

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part of the reptilian race
that includes Tom Hanks and Lady Gaga."

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"These lizard people
are secretly exerting global control."

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["Poker Face" by Lady Gaga playing]

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Someone mentioned this one to me.

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I didn't know
we had Tom Hanks in on it, though.

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I mean, that's great.

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[producer] Next.

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Hmm. "Bill Gates is pursuing immortality
by consuming babies' blood."

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"Bill Gates' massive farmland holdings

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are secretly supplying potatoes
to McDonald's

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to embed their french fries with vaccines
one Happy Meal at a time."

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I eat McDonald's.

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[producer] Okay, one last one.

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-[Gates] "After a fatal car crash…
-[car thuds]

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[Gates] …Bill Gates and ex-wife Melinda
have been replaced by clones."

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[water bubbling]

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[Gates] "A team of scientists
created replacements

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to keep his control
over the world never-ending."

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[producer] Have you heard that before?

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No, Melinda, I think,
is still a real person.

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[producer] And you?

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-I'm… I do my best.
-[producer chuckles]

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[opening theme music playing]

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-[electronic buzz]
-[music halts]

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[mouse clicks]

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[producer] So, I wanted
to ask you about truth.

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Uh, you strike me as somebody
who's driven by data and numbers.

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Do you think there's a difference
between data and truth?

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Not really. I mean, data…

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is the

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set of facts

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about, you know,
how much stuff is being sold,

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how many people are there,

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uh, what activities do they engage in?

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You know,
it's kind of how we make decisions.

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[producer] Except sometimes people
don't make decisions based on facts.

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They make it
based on emotions or narrative

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or, you know, something
that people feel they believe to be true.

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[inhales deeply]

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"How do I think
about a concept like truth?"

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[laughs]

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You wanted to come in
with a sort of, like, softball there.

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Well, I think
there are things called facts.

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If I put my hand in that fire,
it is going to hurt.

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But people have different ways
of reasoning, rationalizing,

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their claims to know something.

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I've started to think
much more intentionally

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about how we create truth.

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Truth to whom?

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And so,
truth becomes something negotiable,

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and it becomes something
more akin to opinion

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or even worse, like belief.

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[music fades]

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Well, the world
is far, far too complicated

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to have a complete fact-based way
of understanding behavior

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and weather and economics
and all these things,

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so we use shortcuts like,
"I trust this person."

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[film beeps]

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[reporter 1]

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the distinguished reporter
and news analyst Edward R. Murrow.

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[Murrow] For the first time,

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man's been able to sit at home
and look at two oceans at the same time.

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We're impressed
with the importance of this medium.

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We shall hope to learn to use it
and not to abuse it.

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[Wang] That was a brief period where
we thought of ourselves as rational beings

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who had beliefs that were based on
sort of verifiable facts,

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but that's not how we exist.

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It just would take too long if
you didn't believe what people told you.

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[reporter 2]
"Don't believe it

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just because it's posted."

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[reporter 3]
like wildfire in recent months.

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[Wang] The Internet
kind of enables this fantasy

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that we are actually
figuring these things out all alone,

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but trust is a single dial.

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You can't dial down trust
in one area of society

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and dial it up in the other.

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You can either go up or down.

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And if you decide to go down,

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you've really destabilized
a lot of things.

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Anything you hear,
you sit there, and you're like, "Uh…"

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No one knows what to trust
and what not to trust.

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[Wang] Peoples' trust in their neighbors,
in their leaders…

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[protester 1] People, wake up!

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[Wang] …and institutions of knowledge…

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You're CNN. You're fake news.

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…and that will come back and turn on you.

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Don't you understand
I'm trying to protect you?

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-[protester 2] Why is there…
-Freedom!

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[inquisitive music plays, fades]

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[man 2] There's always been
conspiracy theories out there.

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We underestimate
how creative Americans are,

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and I think I oftentimes
go out into the field

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with an idea, a question, and perhaps
a rational argument around that question.

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[Klepper] I headed to Trump rallies
in the crucial swing states

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of Ohio and Wisconsin

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to discover what his supporters know
that the rest of us don't.

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-Barack Obama had big part of 9/11.
-Which part?

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Not being around,
always on vacation, never in the office.

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Why do you think Barack Obama
wasn't in the Oval Office on 9/11?

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That I don't know.

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Really starting in that Trump era,

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we were getting stories and theories
that were outside of the norm.

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That went beyond just

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"I disagree with your point of view.
I hold the conservative point of view,"

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to "I've concocted a new reality,"

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and also stuff
I just hadn't heard about. Bonkers shit.

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So, at that point, you're like, "I want
to know more about where this gestates."

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[switch clicks]

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Uh, if you're into conspiracies
and/or computers,

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you may have heard of Bill Gates.
I hope I'm saying that correctly.

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Whether it's from population control
to vaccine microchips,

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the theories are vast,
and the real world consequences are real.

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So to help me dig into that, I have
Kathryn Joyce and Ike Sriskandarajah.

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You guys are gonna help me unpack

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how these conspiracies get attached
to someone like that,

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what the veracity
in some of these theories are,

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and which ones I should believe

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because I'm always looking for
a good conspiracy to sink my teeth into

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and/or give my money to.
So hopefully you can help me with that.

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[chuckles]

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Let's go back a little bit in time.
All right?

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Let's go back to 2010.

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When our foundation first started up,
it was focused on reproductive health

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because population growth
in poor countries

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is the biggest problem they face.

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You've got to help mothers
who want to limit family size

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have the tools and education to do that.

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[Joyce] So, the Gates Foundation,

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they were looking at
this rural community in Ghana,

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and they were looking at ways
to expand access to contraceptive safety

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for women who wanted to be able
to regulate their fertility

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or plan their births.

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This turned into
this really complicated conspiracy theory

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that claimed the Gates Foundation

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was funding
a population control experiment

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to limit the African population.

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Where does this distrust come from?

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In… This is tapping into
a lot of really potent old stuff.

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Um, you know,
there have been human rights abuses.

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In the 1960s,

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a third of all Puerto Rican women
ended up being sterilized.

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You know, there is the Tuskegee Study.

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There's lots of stuff.

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We, as a society, have done this.

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-We have forcibly sterilized people.
-To… To be clear, I have not done that.

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I can tell you there were some years
in my college time

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that I'm a little hazy about what I did,
but I can assure you, it was not that.

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-That's good.
-[Klepper] Thank you.

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But how does it go so quickly
from zero to population control,

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specifically with Bill Gates here?

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Well, it involves anti-abortion activists…

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[crowd chanting]

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[Joyce] …and very cynically co-opting
these legitimate concerns.

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And then in 2012

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when the Gates Foundation gets really
involved in this new large campaign,

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all of this just sort of
clicks into place.

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These wealthy Western organizations,

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not only were they telling us
to control our population,

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they came with their own drugs.

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[man 3] This is a tragedy!

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It's genocidal.

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[crowd cheering]

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Part of the reason these
conspiracy theories become so electric

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is because there is
this little kernel of truth

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that health care is not
and has not been equitable.

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[woman 1] I spend a lot of time
telling people Bill is not Darth Vader.

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"How do you know?"

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"I know him. He's not doing it.
He's busy doing these things."

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-You know, I literally met him 109 times.
-[bell chimes]

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Well, how do you look at the landscape
at this moment,

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especially in the Internet space?

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We'll look back at this
as one of the great periods of invention.

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[Swisher] I think a lot of people
that started the Internet

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saw it as a way to bring us together,
to expand knowledge,

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and a lot of the early stuff
was like that.

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[producer] What happened?

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Well, it took a turn, right?

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[dial-up tone]

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[AOL voice]

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[upbeat music playing]

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[Roberts] It was a business decision
very early on to create a platform,

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create a sandbox, create a playground,

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and invite everyone in.

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When we first launched,
we were hoping for maybe 400, 500 people.

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Now we're at 100,000 people,
so who knows where we're going next. Um…

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[Roberts] Because without all of us
around the world

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constantly filling up these spaces
with our self-expression,

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you know, whatever form that takes,

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these would be essentially empty vessels,

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so it became a business model
of "We'll sort it out later."

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This law is
truly revolutionary legislation

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that will bring the future
to our doorstep.

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In the early days, if you were responsible
for everything on your platform,

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you could get sued out of existence
before you were even out of the crib.

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And so they tried
to create some protection

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for these companies to grow.

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[man 4] The Internet changes too fast.
Its content changes too fast.

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If the government takes the view

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that it can control it,
define it, and regulate it

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while it's still in embryonic form,

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it's bound to fail.

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[Roberts] So, this particular piece
of legislation, called Section 230,

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decided that
rather than platforms be responsible

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for things that flowed over their wires,

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they in fact were indemnified
from responsibility for that material.

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This bill protects consumers
against monopolies.

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It guarantees the diversity of voices
our democracy depends upon.

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Perhaps most of all,
it enhances the common good.

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[Roberts] But at the time
Section 230 came into being,

241
00:11:33,984 --> 00:11:36,946
we were talking about a company
that had a wall of modems

242
00:11:37,029 --> 00:11:39,699
and a T1 connection to the Internet,

243
00:11:39,782 --> 00:11:44,745
so it made sense to consider
these companies to be nothing more

244
00:11:44,829 --> 00:11:48,708
than this neutral conduit for information
that Section 230 envisioned.

245
00:11:49,917 --> 00:11:52,503
[Swisher] And now
this law protects the richest

246
00:11:52,586 --> 00:11:55,464
and most powerful companies
in the history of the world.

247
00:11:55,548 --> 00:11:57,091
[inquisitive music playing]

248
00:11:57,174 --> 00:11:58,551
[Swisher] I think what
they didn't anticipate

249
00:11:58,634 --> 00:12:01,220
was what a good medium it is for hiding

250
00:12:01,303 --> 00:12:03,514
and for being anonymous
in a malevolent way.

251
00:12:04,265 --> 00:12:07,977
You know, TV and broadcast,
broadcast even has limits.

252
00:12:08,602 --> 00:12:11,272
Newspapers have limits.
Physical things have limits.

253
00:12:11,355 --> 00:12:14,400
But then you introduce this thing
that's addictive and fun

254
00:12:14,483 --> 00:12:16,026
and full of crazy stuff.

255
00:12:16,527 --> 00:12:18,404
It's so pretty. It's so shiny.

256
00:12:18,487 --> 00:12:21,323
It's so interesting,
and your life is boring.

257
00:12:21,407 --> 00:12:23,534
It's to have you lean forward, right?

258
00:12:23,617 --> 00:12:26,328
And if it keeps you there,
and then it starts spinning things

259
00:12:26,412 --> 00:12:29,415
that continue
to drag you down a rabbit hole,

260
00:12:29,498 --> 00:12:31,000
then you'd never come back.

261
00:12:33,043 --> 00:12:34,170
-[Gates]
-

262
00:12:35,129 --> 00:12:36,630
Our backgrounds are pretty different.

263
00:12:37,214 --> 00:12:39,842
I'm not an artist,
and you're not a programmer.

264
00:12:39,925 --> 00:12:44,054
Okay, but to say you're not an artist,
I feel like is not really entirely fair.

265
00:12:44,138 --> 00:12:47,266
-Well, that's being nice.
-I'm definitely not a programmer, though.

266
00:12:47,808 --> 00:12:51,937
You know, given all the things that have
happened to us with misinformation,

267
00:12:52,021 --> 00:12:55,274
do you feel like it's more intense
the last four years?

268
00:12:55,357 --> 00:12:57,109
I think we've both seen in different ways

269
00:12:57,193 --> 00:13:00,446
the way that misinformation
can destroy people's lives.

270
00:13:00,529 --> 00:13:01,781
Absolutely.

271
00:13:01,864 --> 00:13:05,367
There's a way
that we experience information now

272
00:13:05,451 --> 00:13:08,162
that has a lot to do with entertainment

273
00:13:08,245 --> 00:13:10,998
and information
being a lot closer together

274
00:13:11,081 --> 00:13:12,708
than they ever have been before.

275
00:13:13,209 --> 00:13:16,712
Yeah, the idea
that if it's kind of outrageous and funny,

276
00:13:17,421 --> 00:13:18,422
it's almost like,

277
00:13:18,506 --> 00:13:22,551
"Well, okay, maybe it's not true,
but it made me laugh,"

278
00:13:22,635 --> 00:13:24,553
or, you know,
"I kind of wish it was true."

279
00:13:24,637 --> 00:13:27,723
Yeah, the entertaining story is, you know,

280
00:13:27,807 --> 00:13:31,352
that "Bill Gates hates what people say
about him in relation to vaccines,"

281
00:13:31,435 --> 00:13:34,605
or "Lady Gaga is, you know,
mortified at these rumors."

282
00:13:34,688 --> 00:13:35,523
But for me,

283
00:13:35,606 --> 00:13:38,818
I've been used to lies being printed
about me since I was 20 years old,

284
00:13:38,901 --> 00:13:41,654
so I'm a performer.
I think it's kind of funny.

285
00:13:42,613 --> 00:13:44,990
[Cooper] People obviously think
you're not being who you are

286
00:13:45,074 --> 00:13:47,451
because you are wearing
a lot of makeup and…

287
00:13:47,535 --> 00:13:48,911
This is what I'm really like.

288
00:13:49,703 --> 00:13:51,455
This is exactly what I'm really like.

289
00:13:51,539 --> 00:13:54,625
This… This is the cup
I drink out of every day.

290
00:13:54,708 --> 00:13:58,045
This is the diamond
I put in my coffee when I get nervous.

291
00:13:58,128 --> 00:13:59,922
It's not a real diamond. It's fake.

292
00:14:00,548 --> 00:14:05,886
I feel like I know firsthand how much
the public really hates being manipulated.

293
00:14:06,428 --> 00:14:09,890
Entertainment as a form of manipulation
is a big part of my career.

294
00:14:10,474 --> 00:14:14,937
When I went to the MTV Awards
with discharged soldiers

295
00:14:15,020 --> 00:14:16,355
during "Don't Ask, Don't Tell,"

296
00:14:17,022 --> 00:14:18,232
I wore the meat dress,

297
00:14:18,732 --> 00:14:22,111
and there were fans I had that loved it
'cause they thought it was smart.

298
00:14:22,194 --> 00:14:26,198
They said, "Oh, she's using entertainment
to further her political agenda,"

299
00:14:26,282 --> 00:14:28,367
but it really bothered people

300
00:14:28,450 --> 00:14:31,871
that didn't wanna talk about LGBTQ+ rights
at the time.

301
00:14:31,954 --> 00:14:34,081
[all chanting] Stop the Lady Gaga concert!

302
00:14:40,462 --> 00:14:44,550
[Gaga] So, by doing something disruptive,
I guess what I'm trying to say is

303
00:14:44,633 --> 00:14:47,761
I know firsthand as a performer
how much the public hates that.

304
00:14:48,345 --> 00:14:51,140
You know, in my case,
a lot of it's all vaccine-related,

305
00:14:51,724 --> 00:14:53,601
which I am connected to vaccines.

306
00:14:53,684 --> 00:14:54,894
That part is true,

307
00:14:54,977 --> 00:14:58,647
but if there was only one or two of them,
and it wasn't a broad phenomenon,

308
00:14:58,731 --> 00:15:00,566
I would attempt to say,

309
00:15:00,649 --> 00:15:02,610
"Hey, wait a minute.
Pick on something else."

310
00:15:02,693 --> 00:15:04,528
"Don't pick on vaccines."

311
00:15:05,112 --> 00:15:07,865
You might not
personally feel offended by it,

312
00:15:07,948 --> 00:15:10,534
but it could affect a decade's worth

313
00:15:10,618 --> 00:15:13,746
of people's relationship with vaccines
and their trust.

314
00:15:14,246 --> 00:15:18,334
And if the public loses their trust,
there's no way to stop it.

315
00:15:18,417 --> 00:15:19,835
Yeah. [chuckles]

316
00:15:21,587 --> 00:15:24,381
[Klepper] Now, Ike, I want to bring you
into the conversation here too.

317
00:15:24,465 --> 00:15:26,383
I feel there's something
in the America character,

318
00:15:26,467 --> 00:15:28,093
this need for embellishment.

319
00:15:28,177 --> 00:15:32,514
At every step, you regurgitate an idea
and then embellish one extra fact.

320
00:15:32,598 --> 00:15:36,018
[Sriskandarajah] It's the game
of telephone on steroids.

321
00:15:36,101 --> 00:15:39,605
That's where we get
the microchip vaccine conspiracy theory.

322
00:15:39,688 --> 00:15:41,357
Do we have a good name for it yet?

323
00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,901
Is it the COVID conspiracy?
Is it the microchip conspiracy?

324
00:15:43,984 --> 00:15:47,404
I think I would call it
the microchip vaccine conspiracy theory.

325
00:15:47,488 --> 00:15:49,323
-Okay. Yeah.
-Do you have a better…?

326
00:15:49,406 --> 00:15:53,869
No. I mean, it's wordy,
but, uh, it has all the searchable terms,

327
00:15:53,953 --> 00:15:55,579
which is helpful on a Reddit board.

328
00:15:55,663 --> 00:15:59,083
-It's search engine optimized.
-What is that? Give me the broad strokes.

329
00:15:59,166 --> 00:16:02,086
Okay, so I was listening to
The Breakfast Club…

330
00:16:02,670 --> 00:16:05,255
[DJ Envy] Morning, everybody.
It's

331
00:16:05,339 --> 00:16:08,592
Now if you just joined us,
we were talking about Donald Trump.

332
00:16:08,676 --> 00:16:11,261
It came out yesterday
that him and his wife have coronavirus,

333
00:16:11,345 --> 00:16:13,639
so, do you think it's real?
Do you think it's a hoax?

334
00:16:13,722 --> 00:16:16,350
Do you think
he really has the coronavirus?

335
00:16:17,101 --> 00:16:18,686
So, he's riffing in the morning

336
00:16:18,769 --> 00:16:22,481
and then takes the conversation
in a direction I did not expect.

337
00:16:22,564 --> 00:16:24,775
This is Charlamagne Tha God,
Lenard McKelvey talking.

338
00:16:24,858 --> 00:16:25,776
I don't believe it.

339
00:16:25,859 --> 00:16:28,153
And I think this could all be a stunt
to make one of those

340
00:16:28,237 --> 00:16:30,906
value-menu vaccines
they're rushing out look safe.

341
00:16:30,990 --> 00:16:33,784
He'll take it on national TV,
all of a sudden be well,

342
00:16:33,867 --> 00:16:36,662
and give the illusion to the public
that the vaccine is safe.

343
00:16:36,745 --> 00:16:39,248
He'll look like a hero
because he's one of the first to try it.

344
00:16:39,331 --> 00:16:41,917
Millions of people
will line up to get it and boom!

345
00:16:42,001 --> 00:16:43,419
Microchip implants for all y'all.

346
00:16:44,253 --> 00:16:48,257
And I was like, "Whoa. He's-- I mean,
everybody knows he's joking, right?"

347
00:16:48,340 --> 00:16:50,050
I remember that during COVID too.

348
00:16:50,134 --> 00:16:53,137
COVID's a time of everybody's
going a little bit stir-crazy,

349
00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:56,181
and this idea
of whether we should trust this vaccine,

350
00:16:56,265 --> 00:16:58,559
that was a point of conversation.

351
00:16:58,642 --> 00:17:02,146
Yes, but he said it four times.

352
00:17:02,229 --> 00:17:05,566
Microchip. Microchip implant!
Microchips. In your ***.

353
00:17:05,649 --> 00:17:06,859
I was like, "Whoa."

354
00:17:06,942 --> 00:17:11,530
"I'm worried people are gonna hear this
and not think that he's joking,"

355
00:17:12,031 --> 00:17:13,741
and I had this reporting question.

356
00:17:13,824 --> 00:17:15,743
"Do people believe this?"

357
00:17:16,326 --> 00:17:18,078
"How many people believe this?"

358
00:17:18,662 --> 00:17:22,875
"And what effect could this have
on our fight against COVID?"

359
00:17:22,958 --> 00:17:24,626
I'm actually surprised that at that point,

360
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:26,920
you still had hope
that messaging could be clear.

361
00:17:27,004 --> 00:17:27,921
[chuckles] Yeah.

362
00:17:28,005 --> 00:17:30,716
My memory of it at that point,
our minds were all messed up,

363
00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:32,968
thinking about
and sourdough recipes.

364
00:17:33,844 --> 00:17:39,933
So I was wondering if you could apply
the methodology of contact tracing

365
00:17:40,017 --> 00:17:43,562
to tracing a lie to its origin.

366
00:17:43,645 --> 00:17:50,611
And the beginning of this particular
microchip vaccine conspiracy theory starts

367
00:17:50,694 --> 00:17:55,074
with a Reddit AMA that Bill Gates hosted.

368
00:17:56,033 --> 00:18:00,245
And he predicts
that the future will involve us

369
00:18:00,329 --> 00:18:03,624
all having some kind of digital passport.

370
00:18:03,707 --> 00:18:07,503
Not a microchip,
not something implanted into your body,

371
00:18:07,586 --> 00:18:09,296
but, like, that's where it starts.

372
00:18:09,379 --> 00:18:14,343
And so, to pick up then,
what happens after people see this AMA?

373
00:18:14,927 --> 00:18:18,097
-It travels across the Internet…
-[Klepper] Mm-hmm.

374
00:18:18,180 --> 00:18:19,473
[Sriskandarajah] …to Sweden.

375
00:18:20,182 --> 00:18:22,351
Where some biohackers--

376
00:18:22,434 --> 00:18:25,646
Those are the people who like
to inject technology into their bodies,

377
00:18:25,729 --> 00:18:27,147
so they can turn into Iron Man?

378
00:18:27,731 --> 00:18:30,526
Well, these guys are advocates.

379
00:18:30,609 --> 00:18:32,152
They're shooting lead into their veins,

380
00:18:32,236 --> 00:18:35,823
and they're advocating for the idea
of man becoming robot?

381
00:18:35,906 --> 00:18:40,452
They're strong proponents
of implantable technology.

382
00:18:40,536 --> 00:18:43,413
-I'm not here on behalf of biohacking.
-Come on.

383
00:18:43,497 --> 00:18:46,750
This is why people can't trust the media.
All right? Give it to me straight.

384
00:18:46,834 --> 00:18:49,294
-Okay, these guys are a little unhinged.
-Thank you.

385
00:18:49,378 --> 00:18:52,506
You see that's two by twelve millimeters.

386
00:18:52,589 --> 00:18:56,093
It's the size
of a luxurious grain of rice.

387
00:18:56,677 --> 00:19:00,097
These biohackers are looking
for opportunities

388
00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:04,643
to advance the issue
of human-implantable microchips.

389
00:19:04,726 --> 00:19:07,312
[man 5] I do single sign-on on my laptop,

390
00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:09,523
unlocking your phone,
getting into my house.

391
00:19:09,606 --> 00:19:10,566
[lock beeps, unlocks]

392
00:19:11,150 --> 00:19:13,944
Cypher, the biohacker
who's paying attention to this,

393
00:19:14,027 --> 00:19:17,614
posts a headline,
a little provocative, a little misleading.

394
00:19:17,698 --> 00:19:22,161
It goes, "Bill Gates
will use microchip implants

395
00:19:22,244 --> 00:19:23,704
to fight coronavirus."

396
00:19:23,787 --> 00:19:25,038
[Klepper] He posts a headline.

397
00:19:25,122 --> 00:19:27,416
What does that mean?
Does he own a newspaper?

398
00:19:27,499 --> 00:19:28,333
[laughs]

399
00:19:28,417 --> 00:19:29,626
This is the problem right here.

400
00:19:29,710 --> 00:19:31,587
You could post a headline
like it's a fact.

401
00:19:31,670 --> 00:19:33,672
So, he takes a leap of faith, and he says,

402
00:19:33,755 --> 00:19:36,466
"This is gonna be something
that will be injected into your body."

403
00:19:36,550 --> 00:19:38,093
Yeah. You know how the Internet works.

404
00:19:38,177 --> 00:19:42,556
Mm-hmm. It destroys humanity
faster than we ever could have expected?

405
00:19:42,639 --> 00:19:43,473
[Sriskandarajah] You know…

406
00:19:43,557 --> 00:19:45,767
We should talk to the guy
who really was at the beginning

407
00:19:45,851 --> 00:19:47,936
of this whole computer movement.
What's his name?

408
00:19:48,020 --> 00:19:50,731
Uh, Bill. Bill Gates.

409
00:19:50,814 --> 00:19:52,274
-[music halts]
-[Bill slurps]

410
00:19:53,609 --> 00:19:54,818
[gulps]

411
00:19:54,902 --> 00:19:56,028
[upbeat music playing]

412
00:19:56,111 --> 00:19:59,865
Hello, this is Adam with
I want to share an article with you today.

413
00:19:59,948 --> 00:20:00,949
Look at this.

414
00:20:01,033 --> 00:20:05,829
So, this article lands on the desk
of a Jacksonville pastor,

415
00:20:05,913 --> 00:20:08,123
so he makes a YouTube video.

416
00:20:08,207 --> 00:20:09,625
[Adam] The article reads,

417
00:20:09,708 --> 00:20:12,628
"Bill Gates will launch
human-implantable capsules

418
00:20:12,711 --> 00:20:15,047
that have 'digital certificates'

419
00:20:15,130 --> 00:20:19,092
which can show
who has been tested for the coronavirus."

420
00:20:19,176 --> 00:20:23,764
Now, this is quite a concern
for any Bible-believing Christians

421
00:20:23,847 --> 00:20:26,350
knowing what the Bible says
about the end times.

422
00:20:26,433 --> 00:20:30,312
Knowing that the Bible says
there will be an Antichrist,

423
00:20:30,395 --> 00:20:35,275
a man that proclaims to be God
that gives glory to the Dragon,

424
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:36,318
which is the Devil.

425
00:20:36,401 --> 00:20:43,116
He titles his video "Bill Gates Microchip
Vaccine Implants to fight Coronavirus."

426
00:20:44,117 --> 00:20:46,161
So, he adds the word "vaccine."

427
00:20:46,245 --> 00:20:48,538
-[tense music playing]
-[crowd angrily shouting]

428
00:20:48,622 --> 00:20:52,668
[man 6] I've read articles about putting
a little chip in with the vaccine.

429
00:20:52,751 --> 00:20:56,546
When is Bill Gates' serpent tongue
gonna come out of his mouth,

430
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:59,466
and… and when will his horns
and tail appear?

431
00:20:59,549 --> 00:21:02,469
So, when the… the cameras,
the 5G comes out, what?

432
00:21:02,552 --> 00:21:04,721
They're gonna scan everybody?
We gotta get scanned?

433
00:21:05,597 --> 00:21:09,685
[Klepper] Yeah, I remember I was
at an anti-vaxx rally in Orange County,

434
00:21:09,768 --> 00:21:11,895
and people were talking a lot
about Bill Gates.

435
00:21:12,479 --> 00:21:14,690
They were talking about him
almost like he was Thanos.

436
00:21:14,773 --> 00:21:18,277
Like he wanted a sixth of the population
to just disappear.

437
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:20,237
[electronic whir]

438
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:21,822
-[fingers snap]
-[loud explosion]

439
00:21:23,824 --> 00:21:26,451
Well, I guess it's important to say
that even before the pandemic,

440
00:21:27,035 --> 00:21:29,579
there is a group of people
who were anti-vaccine.

441
00:21:29,663 --> 00:21:30,956
[indistinct shouting]

442
00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:33,542
[Gates] There's some that you'd think of
as more on the left,

443
00:21:33,625 --> 00:21:35,460
some more on the right,

444
00:21:35,544 --> 00:21:38,338
and with both there's the sense of freedom

445
00:21:38,422 --> 00:21:40,632
and does the government know
what they're doing?

446
00:21:40,716 --> 00:21:45,429
How it turned into,
"There's a chip in the vaccine,"

447
00:21:45,512 --> 00:21:48,515
which, how does it get through the needle?
I don't know.

448
00:21:48,598 --> 00:21:50,267
And what's the power source?

449
00:21:51,143 --> 00:21:56,189
That's the first time I experienced
a complete conspiracy theory

450
00:21:56,690 --> 00:22:00,110
that say I had something to do
with the creation of the pandemic.

451
00:22:00,193 --> 00:22:02,821
That's one of the more extreme ones,

452
00:22:03,447 --> 00:22:08,076
so that was a very new thing
and… and very surprising.

453
00:22:09,995 --> 00:22:11,163
[birds tweeting]

454
00:22:11,246 --> 00:22:15,500
[Gates] Well, during the pandemic,
we would talk on a regular basis.

455
00:22:15,584 --> 00:22:19,212
A lot of it was "Okay, wow.
The world's gotten a bit crazy."

456
00:22:19,296 --> 00:22:20,255
"Are you doing okay?"

457
00:22:20,339 --> 00:22:23,759
And, "Do you see this the same way I do?"
And "Did you hear the latest?"

458
00:22:23,842 --> 00:22:29,973
Our constant communication over that
was very psychologically, uh, therapeutic.

459
00:22:30,057 --> 00:22:31,224
[both laugh]

460
00:22:31,308 --> 00:22:32,225
[Fauci] Because I'd say

461
00:22:32,309 --> 00:22:35,771
at least I know somebody understands
what I'm going through.

462
00:22:35,854 --> 00:22:39,316
[crowd chanting] Kill Bill Gates!
Kill Bill Gates! Kill…

463
00:22:39,399 --> 00:22:43,320
[Gates] At the beginning of the pandemic,
people accused me of making money

464
00:22:43,403 --> 00:22:47,908
and went as far as to say
that intentionally I get vaccines out

465
00:22:47,991 --> 00:22:50,369
that literally have caused
millions of deaths.

466
00:22:50,452 --> 00:22:52,746
-Right.
-[Gates] It's kind of inverting the truth.

467
00:22:52,829 --> 00:22:55,791
Instead of spending billions
to save millions,

468
00:22:55,874 --> 00:22:58,835
I kill millions to make billions.

469
00:22:58,919 --> 00:23:00,670
[Fauci] Yeah, and when you talk to people

470
00:23:00,754 --> 00:23:04,591
who come up with something
that's outlandishly untrue,

471
00:23:04,674 --> 00:23:09,054
and you say, "That's just not true.
How did you come to that conclusion?"

472
00:23:09,137 --> 00:23:12,557
I gotta tell you, more often than not
it's, "Somebody showed me a tweet."

473
00:23:12,641 --> 00:23:14,893
-[Gates] Yeah.
-[Fauci] So, you can take an untruth,

474
00:23:14,976 --> 00:23:19,022
tweet it, and retweet it 100,000 times,
and then it becomes a fact.

475
00:23:20,315 --> 00:23:22,025
[horns honking]

476
00:23:22,818 --> 00:23:25,028
[Gates] I remember we had these rules

477
00:23:25,112 --> 00:23:28,615
that there was a certain time of night
you weren't supposed to get your phone,

478
00:23:28,698 --> 00:23:33,495
and so sometimes Mom would go to bed,
and I was supposed to enforce the rules,

479
00:23:33,578 --> 00:23:36,748
but then you ended up having
a second phone or something.

480
00:23:36,832 --> 00:23:40,502
But do you find yourself,
even at this age, using your phone

481
00:23:40,585 --> 00:23:42,963
and staying on social media
more than you want to?

482
00:23:43,046 --> 00:23:44,256
Oh my gosh, yeah.

483
00:23:44,339 --> 00:23:47,175
TikTok is so addictive.
I'm on it, like, all the time.

484
00:23:47,259 --> 00:23:50,470
And have you ever run into
crazy misinformation about me?

485
00:23:51,179 --> 00:23:53,849
Crazy misinformation about you?
All the time.

486
00:23:53,932 --> 00:23:56,768
I've even had friends cut me off
because of these vaccine rumors.

487
00:23:56,852 --> 00:23:58,562
But I'm a public health student
at Stanford,

488
00:23:58,645 --> 00:24:00,647
and I think that
there's just so much nuance

489
00:24:00,730 --> 00:24:04,025
on how do you communicate, like,
accurate public health information

490
00:24:04,109 --> 00:24:05,402
or scientific data.

491
00:24:05,485 --> 00:24:12,284
I don't know. I… I need to learn more, um,
because I naively still believe that

492
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,621
digital communication can be
a force to bring us together,

493
00:24:16,705 --> 00:24:17,956
to have reasonable debate.

494
00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:21,334
I think one thing, like, you don't really
understand about online is, like,

495
00:24:21,418 --> 00:24:23,962
it's not really, like, logic and fact
that win out.

496
00:24:24,045 --> 00:24:25,213
Like, people want an escape.

497
00:24:25,297 --> 00:24:27,674
They want to, like, laugh.
They want an engaging video.

498
00:24:27,757 --> 00:24:30,760
They want to, you know,
be taken away from boring reality.

499
00:24:30,844 --> 00:24:33,180
And so, like, the most popular video
of you online

500
00:24:33,263 --> 00:24:34,890
is you literally trying to do the dab.

501
00:24:34,973 --> 00:24:36,933
[man 7] Uh, Bill,
can you do the dab real quick?

502
00:24:37,017 --> 00:24:38,935
Damn, Bill! [laughs]

503
00:24:39,019 --> 00:24:40,145
Or you jumping over the chair.

504
00:24:40,228 --> 00:24:43,398
Is it true that you can leap over a chair
from a standing position?

505
00:24:43,982 --> 00:24:45,484
It depends on the size of the chair.

506
00:24:45,567 --> 00:24:46,985
Uh, I'll cheat a little bit.

507
00:24:48,111 --> 00:24:48,945
Yes!

508
00:24:49,529 --> 00:24:52,324
Those were the most popular
'cause people want to escape from things,

509
00:24:52,407 --> 00:24:54,868
so I don't think fact and reason
always win out online.

510
00:24:54,951 --> 00:24:58,455
But the thing about, you know,
I make lots of money from vaccines,

511
00:24:58,538 --> 00:25:00,582
it's hard for me to figure out
where that comes from.

512
00:25:00,665 --> 00:25:06,463
It's not like a political organization.
It's just madness, and who promotes that?

513
00:25:06,546 --> 00:25:09,716
I think it's fear. Everyone was stuck
at home during a pandemic.

514
00:25:09,799 --> 00:25:11,301
We're all scared for our lives.

515
00:25:11,384 --> 00:25:13,762
No one really knows
what to trust or what to believe,

516
00:25:13,845 --> 00:25:15,722
so that's what our society does.

517
00:25:15,805 --> 00:25:20,018
Yeah, the pandemic was definitely, uh,
social media at its worst.

518
00:25:20,101 --> 00:25:23,146
-[chuckles]
-[Gates] Uh, oversimplifying things.

519
00:25:23,230 --> 00:25:24,940
You know, it's so scary to me that

520
00:25:25,023 --> 00:25:28,193
I think of democracy
as a debate over a set of issues

521
00:25:28,276 --> 00:25:32,531
as opposed to
this complete separation of us and them,

522
00:25:32,614 --> 00:25:35,492
and what if we have a pandemic
that's ten times worse--

523
00:25:35,575 --> 00:25:38,036
Don't say that. They're gonna think
you're gonna cause it then.

524
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,081
-That's right. I'm working on it.
-Don't you say that. Cut that.

525
00:25:41,164 --> 00:25:42,249
[both laugh]

526
00:25:42,332 --> 00:25:45,418
You can't go telling people
something's gonna happen,

527
00:25:45,502 --> 00:25:47,671
and then when it happens,
they're like, "Oh!"

528
00:25:47,754 --> 00:25:49,548
[Gates] This is not funny? [chuckles]

529
00:25:49,631 --> 00:25:51,508
This is bad short-form content

530
00:25:51,591 --> 00:25:54,094
that'll go everywhere,
millions of views, if you say it.

531
00:25:54,177 --> 00:25:55,428
Okay. [chuckles]

532
00:25:55,512 --> 00:25:58,181
[inquisitive music plays]

533
00:25:58,265 --> 00:26:03,144
So, I work in medieval legal history,
and I look at how the histories are made.

534
00:26:03,228 --> 00:26:06,439
So the official histories,
how do they get constructed?

535
00:26:06,523 --> 00:26:08,066
What pieces go into them?

536
00:26:08,817 --> 00:26:11,570
It's always
a sort of combination of factors,

537
00:26:11,653 --> 00:26:15,657
but a conspiracy theory
always has kind of the same story.

538
00:26:15,740 --> 00:26:17,284
[soft music playing]

539
00:26:17,367 --> 00:26:21,246
[Wang] Once upon a time,
we were happy, and everything was good.

540
00:26:22,872 --> 00:26:25,625
We were in charge, and we were safe.

541
00:26:27,168 --> 00:26:31,339
[Wang] And then the monsters took hold,
but no one knew that they had.

542
00:26:31,423 --> 00:26:32,424
[faint grumbles]

543
00:26:32,507 --> 00:26:33,842
[Wang] Everything seemed fine

544
00:26:33,925 --> 00:26:37,304
because the monsters made sure
this was all kept secret.

545
00:26:37,387 --> 00:26:41,474
They could change shapes and sizes,
and they could look like anything.

546
00:26:41,558 --> 00:26:42,392
[children gasp]

547
00:26:42,475 --> 00:26:46,354
[Wang] But the thing about these monsters
is that they're in control of the media.

548
00:26:46,438 --> 00:26:48,440
They're in control of their own image,

549
00:26:48,523 --> 00:26:52,360
and so only a very few people
can actually see these monsters.

550
00:26:52,944 --> 00:26:54,946
And if… if you're special enough,

551
00:26:55,030 --> 00:26:58,575
you could spot the monsters
no matter what they looked like.

552
00:26:58,658 --> 00:27:00,493
[soft music continues]

553
00:27:00,577 --> 00:27:03,330
[Wang] Only the heroes of the story
knew the truth,

554
00:27:03,413 --> 00:27:05,457
and then they arrived to save the world.

555
00:27:05,540 --> 00:27:07,751
Of course this is a compelling story.

556
00:27:07,834 --> 00:27:10,253
Like, I'm a dragon slayer?
Yeah, sign me up!

557
00:27:10,337 --> 00:27:15,050
And then came
a magical device called the Internet.

558
00:27:16,718 --> 00:27:18,595
[Wang] It's a fairy tale
about who you are,

559
00:27:18,678 --> 00:27:21,556
and it's a sort of hero's journey
about yourself,

560
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:27,729
and that's the core of a conspiracy theory
is the way that it helps you see yourself.

561
00:27:28,313 --> 00:27:33,485
This was a battle of good versus evil,
and that's how they saw the world.

562
00:27:34,569 --> 00:27:36,529
-[children] The end.
-[teacher] The end. [chuckles]

563
00:27:36,613 --> 00:27:38,073
[child 1] That's a weird book.

564
00:27:38,156 --> 00:27:41,451
-Should we read it again?
-[children] No!

565
00:27:41,534 --> 00:27:43,036
[teacher] Okay, okay.

566
00:27:47,791 --> 00:27:50,251
[man 8] We didn't start
structurally tracking misinformation

567
00:27:50,335 --> 00:27:52,003
until really the beginning
of the pandemic.

568
00:27:52,087 --> 00:27:53,546
-[woman 2] Hello.
-[man 8] Hey, Bill.

569
00:27:53,630 --> 00:27:54,506
-Hi.
-[man 9] Hi, Bill.

570
00:27:54,589 --> 00:27:56,383
[man 8] I think Bill's biggest concern

571
00:27:56,466 --> 00:27:59,302
is misinformation about the topics
and the issues he works on.

572
00:27:59,386 --> 00:28:01,554
So whether that's climate change,
pandemic preparedness,

573
00:28:01,638 --> 00:28:03,264
whether that's global health more broadly,

574
00:28:03,348 --> 00:28:06,351
you know, we just have to be equipped
with what's happening in that sector.

575
00:28:06,434 --> 00:28:10,063
[Cook] So, we're gonna take you through
something you haven't seen yet.

576
00:28:10,146 --> 00:28:12,732
We're gonna show you
some of the things that are hot right now,

577
00:28:12,816 --> 00:28:15,151
and I also have to apologize.
Some of this stuff is dark.

578
00:28:15,944 --> 00:28:18,905
So, if there was an arc
of what happened in misinformation,

579
00:28:18,988 --> 00:28:20,907
it used to be à la carte issues.

580
00:28:20,990 --> 00:28:23,993
What has happened, though,
is people have done really good

581
00:28:24,077 --> 00:28:27,038
at conflating things
into these massive conspiracy theories

582
00:28:27,122 --> 00:28:29,791
that include microchips, farmland,

583
00:28:29,874 --> 00:28:33,002
vaccine technology,
about puppeteering world affairs,

584
00:28:33,086 --> 00:28:37,632
so this is a real-time dashboard
of all the misinformation about you.

585
00:28:37,716 --> 00:28:39,384
So, what you're seeing right now,

586
00:28:39,884 --> 00:28:44,931
these are all the posts and issues
contributing to all that volume.

587
00:28:45,014 --> 00:28:47,559
But I wonder if some things
like the microchipping thing,

588
00:28:47,642 --> 00:28:49,936
has that dropped to zero,
or is that still there?

589
00:28:50,019 --> 00:28:54,149
No, that's, like, a quarter
of so many of those sections.

590
00:28:54,774 --> 00:28:56,609
[Cook] This is a pretty interesting one.

591
00:28:56,693 --> 00:28:59,571
This blue line
is really just about climate.

592
00:29:00,238 --> 00:29:03,658
A lot of this is
about puppeteering the food supply.

593
00:29:03,742 --> 00:29:05,785
Let me take you down a little bit here.

594
00:29:06,369 --> 00:29:09,706
So, one of the emerging rumors
and conspiracy theories is

595
00:29:09,789 --> 00:29:13,793
you've engineered ticks
that when they bite people,

596
00:29:13,877 --> 00:29:17,172
they make people allergic
to traditional meat,

597
00:29:17,255 --> 00:29:22,093
and that this is a theory in order
to drive demand for synthetic meats.

598
00:29:22,177 --> 00:29:26,890
So, apparently, um, 450,000 Americans
have been bitten by these ticks,

599
00:29:26,973 --> 00:29:30,268
and they are gonna now
switch over to meat substitutes,

600
00:29:30,351 --> 00:29:33,897
and that's part of a profiteering plan
around synthetic meats.

601
00:29:33,980 --> 00:29:35,732
Obviously, the bizarre nature of this,

602
00:29:35,815 --> 00:29:37,901
I think this is being shared
a little bit more broadly

603
00:29:37,984 --> 00:29:39,569
because it's just so incredible

604
00:29:39,652 --> 00:29:42,447
that actual normal people are like,
"This is wack,"

605
00:29:42,530 --> 00:29:45,033
and it gets counted
as either a neutral or a positive one.

606
00:29:45,116 --> 00:29:48,077
Glad you're laughing. Uh, I found this
to be particularly depressing.

607
00:29:48,161 --> 00:29:51,164
It's interesting to know
how to fight back, though, you know,

608
00:29:51,706 --> 00:29:54,459
'cause a lot of ways to fight back
could even make it worse.

609
00:29:54,542 --> 00:29:57,003
Right. We noticed
that, like, if you do fact checking,

610
00:29:57,086 --> 00:30:00,089
often that's actually just highlighting
the story to more people.

611
00:30:00,173 --> 00:30:01,174
[Cook] Yeah.

612
00:30:01,257 --> 00:30:03,676
I love that word cluster. It's fantastic.

613
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,179
-[Cook] Yeah.
-[Gates] That's my to-do list.

614
00:30:06,262 --> 00:30:07,514
[woman 2 chuckles]

615
00:30:08,348 --> 00:30:11,518
When it comes to misinformation,
Bill's pretty tough-skinned.

616
00:30:11,601 --> 00:30:12,894
Some of this stuff is so wild.

617
00:30:12,977 --> 00:30:15,814
You know, so wild
that it almost makes him laugh.

618
00:30:16,940 --> 00:30:18,817
But when you talk to Bill,

619
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:22,570
I think misinformation
is incredibly perplexing to him

620
00:30:22,654 --> 00:30:27,200
because it's still not clear
how we address the issue

621
00:30:27,283 --> 00:30:30,662
in some way
that's systemic and foundational.

622
00:30:30,745 --> 00:30:31,830
You know, in the pandemic,

623
00:30:31,913 --> 00:30:35,792
when we'd watch those videos
of people in the hospital saying,

624
00:30:35,875 --> 00:30:37,710
"Now I want the vaccine,"

625
00:30:37,794 --> 00:30:41,130
and you see it explained to them
that it's just too late.

626
00:30:42,549 --> 00:30:45,051
You can ascribe millions of deaths

627
00:30:45,134 --> 00:30:48,680
as a result
of some of this misinformation.

628
00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:55,228
It's just sort of hard to get your head
and your heart wrapped around that.

629
00:30:58,606 --> 00:31:02,902
So, when I was in my early twenties,
there was a rumor that I was a man,

630
00:31:03,570 --> 00:31:05,947
and I went all over the world.

631
00:31:06,030 --> 00:31:10,118
I mean, I traveled for tours,
for promoting my records,

632
00:31:10,201 --> 00:31:13,913
and almost every interview I sat in,
they said, "You know, we--"

633
00:31:13,997 --> 00:31:16,958
Well, there was this image on the Internet
that had been doctored.

634
00:31:17,041 --> 00:31:17,876
Oh wow.

635
00:31:17,959 --> 00:31:21,129
And they were like, you know,
"There's this rumor that you're a man."

636
00:31:21,212 --> 00:31:22,672
"What do you have to say about that?"

637
00:31:22,755 --> 00:31:24,757
Do you ever go on the Internet, Lady Gaga?

638
00:31:24,841 --> 00:31:27,677
-I try to stay away.
-Yeah. 'Cause it's filled with mad rumors.

639
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:28,678
-Really?
-Oh yeah.

640
00:31:28,761 --> 00:31:30,054
[audience chuckles]

641
00:31:30,138 --> 00:31:33,016
-Would you like to hear a couple?
-I'm sure I don't have a choice. [laughs]

642
00:31:33,099 --> 00:31:37,562
Someone said that Lady Gaga is actually
a very well-endowed young man.

643
00:31:37,645 --> 00:31:40,523
What about the crazy rumors
about you being a hermaphrodite?

644
00:31:40,607 --> 00:31:42,692
How do you feel about that
when you read that?

645
00:31:43,276 --> 00:31:46,070
[Cooper] A lot of artists
would've put out a statement saying,

646
00:31:46,154 --> 00:31:48,489
"This is absolutely not true."
You have fun with it.

647
00:31:48,573 --> 00:31:50,700
Why the hell am I gonna waste my time

648
00:31:50,783 --> 00:31:53,536
and give a press release
about whether or not I have a penis?

649
00:31:53,620 --> 00:31:55,747
My fans don't care and neither do I.

650
00:31:56,247 --> 00:31:58,750
The reason I didn't answer the question
was because

651
00:31:59,292 --> 00:32:02,754
I didn't feel like a victim with that lie,

652
00:32:02,837 --> 00:32:06,883
but I thought about, like, what about
a kid that's being accused of that

653
00:32:06,966 --> 00:32:10,136
that would think
a public figure like me would feel shame?

654
00:32:10,219 --> 00:32:13,890
It's like… Sometimes… I guess
what I'm saying is I've been in situations

655
00:32:13,973 --> 00:32:17,644
where fixing a rumor was not
in the best interest of…

656
00:32:17,727 --> 00:32:20,355
I thought of, like,
the well-being of other people.

657
00:32:20,438 --> 00:32:22,106
-Huh.
-[Gaga] So, in that case,

658
00:32:22,190 --> 00:32:25,109
I try to be thought-provoking
and disruptive in another way.

659
00:32:25,193 --> 00:32:29,322
I tried to use the misinformation
to create another disruptive point.

660
00:32:29,906 --> 00:32:34,160
People, I think, assume that
someone like me that performs,

661
00:32:34,243 --> 00:32:37,038
that my performance is what's not real,

662
00:32:37,121 --> 00:32:40,959
but to me that's the most real thing
that you'll see about me.

663
00:32:41,042 --> 00:32:43,503
That is so much more real than, um,

664
00:32:44,212 --> 00:32:49,467
all of the rumors that are designed
to orbit me to gain more clicks.

665
00:32:49,550 --> 00:32:50,718
Yeah. [chuckles]

666
00:32:52,929 --> 00:32:55,682
Do you think we have tactics
for reducing this?

667
00:32:55,765 --> 00:33:00,937
That is a very sensitive issue
because we wanna make sure

668
00:33:01,020 --> 00:33:03,940
that there is this very strong element
of freedom of speech.

669
00:33:04,023 --> 00:33:04,857
Mm-hmm.

670
00:33:04,941 --> 00:33:09,570
Except freedom of speech does not allow
you to cry, "Fire" in a movie theater,

671
00:33:09,654 --> 00:33:12,031
then you have to reconsider
what can you do about that?

672
00:33:12,615 --> 00:33:14,450
[reporter 4] A new study
suggests that TikTok

673
00:33:14,534 --> 00:33:17,704
may be pushing harmful content
to its young users.

674
00:33:17,787 --> 00:33:19,789
[man 10] You basically
have to make a choice.

675
00:33:19,872 --> 00:33:24,752
Do you err on the side
of free speech and voice,

676
00:33:24,836 --> 00:33:30,341
or do you err on the side
of wanting to remove harmful content?

677
00:33:31,509 --> 00:33:34,429
[Musk] It seems to me that there's
a severe violation of the First Amendment

678
00:33:34,512 --> 00:33:36,764
in terms of how much control
the government had over old Twitter,

679
00:33:37,432 --> 00:33:39,350
and, uh, it no longer does,

680
00:33:39,434 --> 00:33:41,978
so, you know, there's a reason
for the First Amendment.

681
00:33:42,061 --> 00:33:45,773
I don't need a lecture on free speech
from Elon Musk. I don't.

682
00:33:45,857 --> 00:33:49,902
He just decides when he's gonna do
free speech on his platform that he owns.

683
00:33:49,986 --> 00:33:52,196
Free speech was not conceived
on such a scale,

684
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:55,450
and therefore it gives enormous power
to malevolent players.

685
00:33:55,533 --> 00:33:58,244
[soft music playing]

686
00:33:58,327 --> 00:34:02,749
[Boyd] I often come back
to this court case called Packer v. Utah.

687
00:34:02,832 --> 00:34:06,586
Utah had outlawed
putting tobacco ads in its state,

688
00:34:06,669 --> 00:34:08,796
and Packer,
which was a tobacco company, said,

689
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,091
"Ah, we have free speech rights.
We can put up an ad."

690
00:34:12,175 --> 00:34:14,177
The case worked its way up
to the Supreme Court,

691
00:34:14,260 --> 00:34:16,846
and the ruling is written
by Justice Brandeis,

692
00:34:17,513 --> 00:34:19,724
and he basically argues that,

693
00:34:19,807 --> 00:34:23,102
actually, the act of putting it
in a billboard in a community space

694
00:34:23,186 --> 00:34:25,688
was creating the conditions
that people had to look away.

695
00:34:25,772 --> 00:34:27,273
They had to avert their eyes.

696
00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:30,526
You have given too much privilege
to the speech act

697
00:34:30,610 --> 00:34:32,528
and not enough to the listener.

698
00:34:32,612 --> 00:34:36,532
Social media is not a question
of… of speech or speech acts.

699
00:34:36,616 --> 00:34:38,159
It's a question of amplification.

700
00:34:38,242 --> 00:34:42,538
If I choose to subscribe
to your information, fine.

701
00:34:42,622 --> 00:34:45,083
But what does it mean to be forced to see?

702
00:34:45,166 --> 00:34:46,709
Those are different things.

703
00:34:48,461 --> 00:34:51,089
[Diresta] Your right to be a jerk,
your right to be hateful.

704
00:34:51,172 --> 00:34:54,300
You can do that,
and the content can continue to exist.

705
00:34:54,383 --> 00:34:55,760
It can be on the platform.

706
00:34:55,843 --> 00:34:58,179
People who want
to go looking for it can find it.

707
00:34:58,262 --> 00:35:00,473
But the platform's not
under any obligation

708
00:35:00,556 --> 00:35:02,725
to push it out into an algorithmic feed.

709
00:35:03,518 --> 00:35:06,687
So, this question of who draws the lines

710
00:35:06,771 --> 00:35:10,316
between your right to free expression
and real world harm

711
00:35:10,399 --> 00:35:13,319
is actually, I think,
the question for our time.

712
00:35:15,613 --> 00:35:19,951
Everything that is built today
is built in the era of polarization.

713
00:35:20,034 --> 00:35:22,453
Which is something that,
as social scientists have pointed out,

714
00:35:22,537 --> 00:35:23,913
-predates the Internet.
-Yeah.

715
00:35:23,996 --> 00:35:27,792
[man 11] We talk about disinformation,
rumors, misinformation,

716
00:35:27,875 --> 00:35:30,211
and it becomes personal for individuals.

717
00:35:30,753 --> 00:35:32,922
Mr. Gates, did you see this happening?

718
00:35:33,005 --> 00:35:34,257
Was this on your radar at all,

719
00:35:34,340 --> 00:35:37,260
or was this a… was this
a completely surprising phenomenon?

720
00:35:37,844 --> 00:35:44,308
I didn't realize the digital realm
would let people sort of cluster

721
00:35:44,809 --> 00:35:48,855
and revel in often things
that are not real,

722
00:35:48,938 --> 00:35:51,482
so I'm actually quite concerned
about that.

723
00:35:51,566 --> 00:35:53,818
[Stamos] Is this something
that's only getting worse,

724
00:35:53,901 --> 00:35:57,238
or is there some kind of turning point
where… where maybe things improve a bit?

725
00:35:57,321 --> 00:36:00,283
So, I think there's technological problems
and there's social problems,

726
00:36:00,366 --> 00:36:02,034
and, of course, there's this intersection.

727
00:36:02,118 --> 00:36:04,495
And since social media brought everybody
into the same spaces,

728
00:36:04,579 --> 00:36:07,206
put them on the same infrastructure,
you have this interesting dynamic

729
00:36:07,290 --> 00:36:09,542
where some recommendation
and curation decisions,

730
00:36:09,625 --> 00:36:12,753
just some really bad design decisions
that were made very unintentionally.

731
00:36:12,837 --> 00:36:14,672
[birds squawking]

732
00:36:14,755 --> 00:36:16,716
[Diresta] The way most platforms
keep people online

733
00:36:16,799 --> 00:36:18,634
is they give you a sense of community.

734
00:36:18,718 --> 00:36:21,012
I've used the metaphor
of flocks of starlings.

735
00:36:21,095 --> 00:36:22,388
There's these murmurations.

736
00:36:22,471 --> 00:36:23,306
They careen around,

737
00:36:23,389 --> 00:36:27,143
and it happens because each bird
can see the seven birds nearest it.

738
00:36:27,852 --> 00:36:29,270
So one bird kinda changes direction,

739
00:36:29,353 --> 00:36:33,232
and then it has this cascading effect
where things move very quickly.

740
00:36:34,066 --> 00:36:36,986
But it has no idea
what the rest of the flock is doing.

741
00:36:37,486 --> 00:36:39,780
You see something.
It comes across your feed,

742
00:36:39,864 --> 00:36:41,616
and you hit the like button,

743
00:36:41,699 --> 00:36:44,744
and you don't necessarily think
that has an impact,

744
00:36:44,827 --> 00:36:48,664
but once you engage, you're feeding it
more information about your interests.

745
00:36:48,748 --> 00:36:51,626
If you're in an anti-vaccine group,
you're probably gonna like chemtrails.

746
00:36:51,709 --> 00:36:54,086
If you like chemtrails,
here's some flat earth,

747
00:36:54,170 --> 00:36:56,964
and so it is constantly
pushing you recommendations

748
00:36:57,048 --> 00:36:59,675
because it's competing for your attention
against the other platforms

749
00:36:59,759 --> 00:37:01,260
that are doing the same thing.

750
00:37:01,344 --> 00:37:03,262
[inquisitive music playing]

751
00:37:03,346 --> 00:37:07,016
[Gates] I think the mistake I made was
thinking when people were sitting there,

752
00:37:07,099 --> 00:37:09,435
they were mostly just trying
to gather facts

753
00:37:09,518 --> 00:37:12,605
and there would be less misinformation,

754
00:37:12,688 --> 00:37:15,149
but as we connect to things
over the Internet,

755
00:37:15,233 --> 00:37:16,817
even myself,

756
00:37:16,901 --> 00:37:19,070
if an article has a headline that says,

757
00:37:19,153 --> 00:37:23,366
"People You Disagree With Politically
Are Even Stupider Than You Thought,"

758
00:37:23,449 --> 00:37:28,996
you know, I might click on that and think,
"Hey, yeah! They really are. Yeah."

759
00:37:29,789 --> 00:37:32,875
As a result of that, as a result
of the polarization in the United States,

760
00:37:32,959 --> 00:37:36,128
this conversation has become
a very partisan fight

761
00:37:36,212 --> 00:37:37,713
when it's actually happening globally.

762
00:37:37,797 --> 00:37:39,423
[inquisitive music playing]

763
00:37:39,507 --> 00:37:42,301
[Diresta] In 2010,
activist groups began to realize

764
00:37:42,385 --> 00:37:45,304
that the Internet actually is
a powerful tool for organizing.

765
00:37:45,388 --> 00:37:48,057
Nowhere is this more visible
than in the Arab Spring.

766
00:37:48,140 --> 00:37:50,768
[indistinct shouting]

767
00:37:50,851 --> 00:37:53,145
[Diresta] This wakes up governments.

768
00:37:53,229 --> 00:37:55,940
They no longer think about this
as some people talking on the Internet.

769
00:37:56,023 --> 00:37:57,400
Now it's toppling regimes.

770
00:37:57,483 --> 00:38:01,112
So, what you start to see
is governments incorporating the Internet

771
00:38:01,195 --> 00:38:03,531
into their propaganda apparatus.

772
00:38:03,614 --> 00:38:04,865
[reporter 5] The Islamic State,

773
00:38:04,949 --> 00:38:08,786
they're producing propaganda pieces
every single day.

774
00:38:09,453 --> 00:38:12,957
What ISIS does very overtly,
Russia goes and does very covertly,

775
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,043
and all of a sudden, you have
this kind of war of all against all

776
00:38:16,127 --> 00:38:19,046
where different factions are fighting
for attention and clout

777
00:38:19,130 --> 00:38:20,881
and then real power in the real world.

778
00:38:21,465 --> 00:38:26,012
We've seen influence operations
originated by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, India,

779
00:38:26,095 --> 00:38:28,681
Pakistan, Jordan, gosh, the United States.

780
00:38:28,764 --> 00:38:30,850
-[Santos] United States.
-Right? [chuckles]

781
00:38:30,933 --> 00:38:32,476
[Diresta] There's nobody
that isn't doing it

782
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,895
to try to manipulate
the information space of their enemy.

783
00:38:34,979 --> 00:38:38,357
And again, this ties back to
very old concepts of war and dominance

784
00:38:38,441 --> 00:38:41,527
where if you can activate
a small group of people within one country

785
00:38:41,610 --> 00:38:43,654
to fight against a group of people
in another country,

786
00:38:43,738 --> 00:38:45,489
you can destabilize your enemy

787
00:38:45,573 --> 00:38:49,618
purely using real existing tensions
that exist within the world.

788
00:38:50,494 --> 00:38:54,290
[Srinivasan] This issue of disinformation
has really gone on steroids

789
00:38:54,373 --> 00:38:58,419
because we are overwhelmed
and inundated with information.

790
00:38:58,502 --> 00:39:03,049
We barely have time or space to reflect,
let alone process something deeply,

791
00:39:03,132 --> 00:39:06,886
so, as a result, we're just gonna accept
what is coming at us.

792
00:39:07,887 --> 00:39:10,431
And I think people
are suspicious and skeptical

793
00:39:10,514 --> 00:39:12,641
of the world
that's being presented to them,

794
00:39:12,725 --> 00:39:14,352
but we have no other choice.

795
00:39:16,687 --> 00:39:19,565
Well, in the end,
this is a societal problem,

796
00:39:19,648 --> 00:39:22,693
and there will have to be
laws and regulations

797
00:39:22,777 --> 00:39:25,780
that drive the solution to this.

798
00:39:26,989 --> 00:39:30,201
Obviously, different countries
will deal with this in different ways,

799
00:39:30,284 --> 00:39:33,496
but in the US, it's immensely complicated.

800
00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:36,957
[Kennedy] I've heard you talk about
the reforms you've made,

801
00:39:37,041 --> 00:39:39,377
but I don't think
you're gonna solve the problem.

802
00:39:39,460 --> 00:39:41,754
I think Congress
is gonna have to help you.

803
00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:48,177
We can no longer trust Meta and, frankly,
any of the other social media

804
00:39:48,260 --> 00:39:52,681
to provide the kind of safeguards
that children and parents deserve.

805
00:39:52,765 --> 00:39:57,895
Mr. Zuckerberg, why should
your company not be sued for this?

806
00:39:58,479 --> 00:40:00,064
Shouldn't you be held accountable?

807
00:40:00,147 --> 00:40:02,733
Senator, I… I think
I've already answered this. This is--

808
00:40:02,817 --> 00:40:05,486
[Hawley] Well, try us again.
Will you take personal responsibility?

809
00:40:05,569 --> 00:40:07,405
There's families of victims here today.

810
00:40:07,488 --> 00:40:08,906
Would you like now

811
00:40:08,989 --> 00:40:11,575
to apologize to the victims
who've been harmed by your posts?

812
00:40:11,659 --> 00:40:12,785
Show him the pictures.

813
00:40:13,994 --> 00:40:17,581
[Srinivasan] You can't expect them to take
responsibility to regulate themselves.

814
00:40:17,665 --> 00:40:20,876
We have to restructure
the entire apparatus

815
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,462
within which
these technology corporations operate

816
00:40:23,546 --> 00:40:27,049
to ensure that the people
are actually protected,

817
00:40:27,133 --> 00:40:29,718
especially those most vulnerable
in our society.

818
00:40:30,302 --> 00:40:35,057
I am a believer in a more decentralized
content moderation sphere

819
00:40:35,141 --> 00:40:37,601
where users have more, uh, control

820
00:40:37,685 --> 00:40:41,730
rather than Mark Zuckerberg
or others having to decide

821
00:40:41,814 --> 00:40:42,898
these are the policies,

822
00:40:42,982 --> 00:40:45,234
and they will then apply
to two billion people.

823
00:40:45,317 --> 00:40:47,194
[Swisher] The Internet
was paid for by taxpayers.

824
00:40:47,278 --> 00:40:49,280
So they took a thing we paid for,

825
00:40:49,363 --> 00:40:52,616
and then they make the decisions
that affect society,

826
00:40:52,700 --> 00:40:54,326
that actually cause impact,

827
00:40:54,410 --> 00:40:58,038
whether it's addiction
or insurrection or radicalization,

828
00:40:58,122 --> 00:41:00,291
but then have no responsibility for that.

829
00:41:00,374 --> 00:41:03,252
We've done nothing about it.
Nothing. Nothing. Zero.

830
00:41:03,335 --> 00:41:06,130
[dramatic music plays]

831
00:41:06,213 --> 00:41:10,217
I think disinformation
is perpetuated by all of us.

832
00:41:10,301 --> 00:41:11,385
Absolutely.

833
00:41:11,469 --> 00:41:15,264
I think it's not something
that we can just blame social media

834
00:41:15,347 --> 00:41:18,392
for not making sure
that they have better practices.

835
00:41:18,476 --> 00:41:22,104
I think that we also
have to hold ourselves to a standard

836
00:41:22,188 --> 00:41:25,733
of what we are willing to perpetuate
on our own platforms.

837
00:41:25,816 --> 00:41:27,860
Well, we've made it so easy

838
00:41:29,195 --> 00:41:31,071
to just post anything.

839
00:41:31,155 --> 00:41:33,240
You know, so somebody who,

840
00:41:33,324 --> 00:41:36,744
you know, on the playground
would have been rude and nasty,

841
00:41:37,244 --> 00:41:41,165
okay, a few dozen kids hear that,
that's not great, you know,

842
00:41:41,248 --> 00:41:42,958
but hopefully they'll grow up.

843
00:41:43,042 --> 00:41:45,169
But you're sitting in your own home,

844
00:41:45,669 --> 00:41:49,924
and if somebody is questioning
your traditional values,

845
00:41:50,007 --> 00:41:52,510
it's just, you know,
you just sit there and type,

846
00:41:53,052 --> 00:41:56,722
and then the system takes that
and it's not just the playground,

847
00:41:56,805 --> 00:41:58,474
it's millions of people.

848
00:41:59,058 --> 00:42:01,519
So, blaming the individuals is hard

849
00:42:01,602 --> 00:42:05,481
because it's kind of human nature
but just blasted out.

850
00:42:07,107 --> 00:42:09,235
[Gaga] When I hear you talk
about the playground,

851
00:42:09,735 --> 00:42:11,487
what I think right away is,

852
00:42:11,570 --> 00:42:15,741
if enough people were on the playground
shouting at each other at the same time,

853
00:42:15,824 --> 00:42:18,202
I feel like someone might calm it down.

854
00:42:18,285 --> 00:42:19,286
No, you're right.

855
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:22,331
On that playground, if, you know,
things go too out of control,

856
00:42:22,414 --> 00:42:25,000
there was some adult who would show up.

857
00:42:25,084 --> 00:42:28,295
And even when you attack somebody
on the playground,

858
00:42:28,379 --> 00:42:30,339
you can see their face, you know.

859
00:42:30,422 --> 00:42:32,800
And maybe they'll cry,
or maybe they'll, you know, run away,

860
00:42:32,883 --> 00:42:35,344
and you're like, "Was that my intention?"

861
00:42:35,427 --> 00:42:37,263
"I did make that person feel bad."

862
00:42:37,346 --> 00:42:41,058
Whereas when you're sitting there typing,
and you're feeling like you're so clever,

863
00:42:41,141 --> 00:42:45,980
you don't see that human reaction
that makes you think twice about it.

864
00:42:48,399 --> 00:42:52,403
Say you wanted to understand people
with different viewpoints,

865
00:42:52,486 --> 00:42:55,072
is there any way
to get exposed to that broader?

866
00:42:55,656 --> 00:42:58,534
Yeah, I'd say that you have to
definitely intentionally seek it out.

867
00:42:58,617 --> 00:43:02,580
If you wanna get the other side,
you have to literally search that out,

868
00:43:02,663 --> 00:43:05,165
especially because
the algorithm tailors towards your views

869
00:43:05,249 --> 00:43:07,126
or the content
you're engaging with the most.

870
00:43:07,209 --> 00:43:09,461
We're just gonna have to be
even more aware

871
00:43:09,545 --> 00:43:11,589
of what's true and what's not true.

872
00:43:11,672 --> 00:43:15,301
Yeah, you know, I'd love a little bit
that every once in a while

873
00:43:15,384 --> 00:43:17,761
if there's really
a well-reasoned kind of right wing,

874
00:43:17,845 --> 00:43:21,765
why do they see it differently, you know,
understand our perspective.

875
00:43:21,849 --> 00:43:23,809
-I'd love to get that into your theme.
-Same. Same.

876
00:43:23,892 --> 00:43:25,811
Because I'm big
about moving people to the middle.

877
00:43:25,894 --> 00:43:28,147
That's why tweaking the algorithm
would be so important.

878
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:31,609
If I could say to it, "Hey, today
I wanna see content from both sides."

879
00:43:31,692 --> 00:43:32,943
"Don't just label me as left."

880
00:43:33,527 --> 00:43:35,321
I wish I could tweak the algorithm to say,

881
00:43:35,404 --> 00:43:37,573
"I don't wanna see this today.
I wanna see this."

882
00:43:37,656 --> 00:43:40,534
If I could really play around with it,
that would be really fun.

883
00:43:40,618 --> 00:43:42,828
[inspiring music playing]

884
00:43:42,911 --> 00:43:46,373
[Wang] So, right now
the problem with social media is

885
00:43:46,457 --> 00:43:50,919
that we are actually destabilizing trust
more broadly within the society.

886
00:43:51,587 --> 00:43:55,924
And once you sort of break trust,
you have to replace it with something.

887
00:43:56,008 --> 00:43:58,594
You can't just continue being skeptical

888
00:43:58,677 --> 00:44:01,388
because skepticism
doesn't produce knowledge.

889
00:44:01,472 --> 00:44:06,602
If your only sort of premise is
what you think you know, you don't know,

890
00:44:06,685 --> 00:44:10,481
you can't actually go anywhere from there.
That doesn't lead you in any directions.

891
00:44:10,564 --> 00:44:13,567
[man 12] It's no longer a conspiracy
when you do your own homework.

892
00:44:13,651 --> 00:44:15,653
You're trying to get us
'cause you're obviously not,

893
00:44:15,736 --> 00:44:18,030
so you're trying to make us seem bad,
but you're the bad guy.

894
00:44:18,113 --> 00:44:21,200
I can't hear you 'cause you have
a stupid mask on your face.

895
00:44:21,283 --> 00:44:25,454
[Diresta] Right now, you see
that kind of conspiracy without the theory

896
00:44:25,537 --> 00:44:28,207
almost replacing
the actual conspiracy theories.

897
00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:30,709
They are against us.

898
00:44:30,793 --> 00:44:33,837
The theory of why they don't want
you to know is completely absent.

899
00:44:33,921 --> 00:44:37,675
The reason why "they" are doing this
is not even discussed.

900
00:44:38,175 --> 00:44:40,719
[Srinivasan] I think we're getting
to some tipping points here

901
00:44:40,803 --> 00:44:42,930
where a lot of us are recognizing

902
00:44:43,013 --> 00:44:46,350
that this current system as it stands
is overwhelming us.

903
00:44:46,433 --> 00:44:48,602
It's… It's isolating us.
It's fragmenting us.

904
00:44:48,686 --> 00:44:50,479
It's driving us all a little crazy.

905
00:44:50,562 --> 00:44:55,192
Bill Gates thinks of himself as God,
in control of the solar system,

906
00:44:55,275 --> 00:44:59,446
and that's why Bill Gates is now backing
something called sun-dimming technology.

907
00:44:59,530 --> 00:45:00,823
[woman 3] Thank you, Bill Gates,

908
00:45:00,906 --> 00:45:04,618
for trying to fuckin' trick us
that this is real snow.

909
00:45:04,702 --> 00:45:05,953
Snow fuckin' melts.

910
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:07,830
[inhales]

911
00:45:09,248 --> 00:45:10,582
What can you do?

912
00:45:10,666 --> 00:45:13,043
You know, I can't let it bother me

913
00:45:13,127 --> 00:45:18,173
that some people have
even the most negative view of my work,

914
00:45:18,257 --> 00:45:21,093
but I need a certain level of acceptance

915
00:45:21,176 --> 00:45:24,805
to be able to partner with governments
and other philanthropists

916
00:45:24,888 --> 00:45:26,640
and recruit the best scientists.

917
00:45:26,724 --> 00:45:31,145
So anything that starts to undermine
understanding of what we're about,

918
00:45:31,228 --> 00:45:33,605
what we've achieved, that's problematic.

919
00:45:34,231 --> 00:45:36,608
Do you think
that we're entering an era now

920
00:45:36,692 --> 00:45:40,654
where putting humanity back into things
is gonna be possible?

921
00:45:41,321 --> 00:45:44,908
I do, but partly
it's not that I have a specific plan.

922
00:45:44,992 --> 00:45:46,118
Come on, Bill.

923
00:45:46,201 --> 00:45:47,119
[both laugh]

924
00:45:47,202 --> 00:45:49,955
No, I sometimes…
My ultimate cop out is I say,

925
00:45:50,038 --> 00:45:52,166
"Hey, my generation did a lot of things,

926
00:45:52,249 --> 00:45:55,919
but we gifted to the next generation
a… a bit of a mess."

927
00:45:56,003 --> 00:45:58,505
We have a digital polarization thing

928
00:45:58,589 --> 00:46:02,009
that outweighs
the access to information thing,

929
00:46:02,092 --> 00:46:06,430
and, you know, hey, young people,
make some new rules.

930
00:46:06,513 --> 00:46:07,347
Right.

931
00:46:07,431 --> 00:46:11,393
Or have competition in excellence,
not competition in insanity.

932
00:46:11,977 --> 00:46:16,190
But I feel bad that I…
I don't have the… the solution.

933
00:46:18,275 --> 00:46:22,196
[Stamos] So, for the students here,
as, uh, mostly Gen Zers,

934
00:46:22,279 --> 00:46:26,116
do you think there's a generation gap here
on disinformation?

935
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,161
I would not say that younger people
are necessarily doing it better.

936
00:46:29,244 --> 00:46:33,749
I actually think younger generations now
have almost a social incentive

937
00:46:33,832 --> 00:46:34,917
to share a stance,

938
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,462
so while I think older generations
might see something and be outraged,

939
00:46:38,545 --> 00:46:39,922
and maybe they'll share it,

940
00:46:40,005 --> 00:46:43,175
I think people who are younger
are incentivized to share that

941
00:46:43,258 --> 00:46:44,426
and pretend to be an expert.

942
00:46:44,510 --> 00:46:47,513
So I think that can be
almost more dangerous.

943
00:46:47,596 --> 00:46:49,973
Yes, I'm skeptical of what's on my feed.

944
00:46:50,057 --> 00:46:52,601
I know that I can't be manipulated,

945
00:46:52,684 --> 00:46:55,979
so with that confidence you kind of
just go into these algorithms saying,

946
00:46:56,063 --> 00:46:58,232
"Yeah, give me more.
Tell me more about, like…"

947
00:46:58,315 --> 00:47:00,859
I'll keep scrolling
'cause I won't be manipulated.

948
00:47:00,943 --> 00:47:03,362
My youngest sister
is almost nine years younger than me.

949
00:47:03,445 --> 00:47:05,697
She's 20, so she's very much Gen Z,

950
00:47:05,781 --> 00:47:08,408
and I see a huge difference
even between us.

951
00:47:09,284 --> 00:47:10,911
[metal rattles]

952
00:47:10,994 --> 00:47:13,038
[Gates] I get out of date,
you know, pretty quickly.

953
00:47:13,121 --> 00:47:17,209
Like, you know, Facebook,
I guess that's not like a big thing.

954
00:47:17,292 --> 00:47:19,628
-Do you do any?
-No, I don't do any Facebook.

955
00:47:19,711 --> 00:47:23,173
And how many IDs
do you typically have on a system?

956
00:47:24,132 --> 00:47:25,259
How many what?

957
00:47:25,342 --> 00:47:28,095
Do you have multiple personas
on the same system?

958
00:47:28,178 --> 00:47:30,430
Oh, you mean accounts?
Uh, yeah, yeah, I do.

959
00:47:30,514 --> 00:47:32,474
Usually you have, like,
your big public account,

960
00:47:32,558 --> 00:47:35,644
and then you'll have a spam one
that's, like, for your closer friends

961
00:47:35,727 --> 00:47:37,980
that's just, like, funny stuff
that you put up.

962
00:47:38,063 --> 00:47:42,401
Yeah, I hear you,
but, you know, I'm a serious person.

963
00:47:42,484 --> 00:47:46,947
So how do I keep that serious persona
and not be a… a boring guy?

964
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:48,574
I think people want to see that person

965
00:47:48,657 --> 00:47:50,993
that they don't understand
living their day-to-day life.

966
00:47:51,076 --> 00:47:53,662
Like, I understand a lot of times
when people come to my page,

967
00:47:53,745 --> 00:47:55,873
they're coming to my page
because of my last name

968
00:47:55,956 --> 00:47:57,416
or interest in our family.

969
00:47:57,499 --> 00:47:59,835
And then I can sow in there
between, like, you know,

970
00:47:59,918 --> 00:48:03,463
a lot of times it's photos of my face
or when I show skin, I get more likes,

971
00:48:03,547 --> 00:48:04,715
but I can sow…

972
00:48:04,798 --> 00:48:08,051
No, but I can sow in there
stuff about reproductive health and stuff

973
00:48:08,135 --> 00:48:11,096
and then people are learning
that content as well,

974
00:48:11,179 --> 00:48:13,140
and because I'm doing a lot of this work

975
00:48:13,223 --> 00:48:15,642
spreading information
about reproductive justice

976
00:48:15,726 --> 00:48:17,603
or women making decisions
about their own bodies.

977
00:48:17,686 --> 00:48:21,064
I've even seen the amount
of, like, abuse I get online go up

978
00:48:21,148 --> 00:48:22,482
since I've gotten more followers.

979
00:48:22,566 --> 00:48:27,404
You're choosing to use social media
to educate and to activate.

980
00:48:27,487 --> 00:48:30,449
Yeah, so it's a fine line
between being personable

981
00:48:30,532 --> 00:48:32,576
but also then weaving in your real agenda.

982
00:48:32,659 --> 00:48:35,370
Okay. Here's the numbers.
Here's the science. Here's the facts.

983
00:48:35,454 --> 00:48:38,332
Just literally, like, a livestream video
of you talking through your day

984
00:48:38,415 --> 00:48:39,917
I think would be, like, really cool.

985
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:40,876
All right.

986
00:48:40,959 --> 00:48:42,836
And text me. Don't email me.

987
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,171
What's wrong with email?

988
00:48:44,254 --> 00:48:47,007
No one uses email
for personal communications.

989
00:48:47,090 --> 00:48:50,177
-Forty years ago, we did that a lot.
-Forty years ago, I'm sure that they did.

990
00:48:50,260 --> 00:48:53,597
Not this year
and never, ever, ever in the future.

991
00:48:54,389 --> 00:48:56,058
[distorted music plays]

992
00:48:56,642 --> 00:48:58,268
-[producer] Are you good?
-[man 13] Yeah.

993
00:48:58,352 --> 00:49:00,354
[producer] We got it. Thank you.

994
00:49:01,772 --> 00:49:03,607
So, what do you want me to do?
Get up and walk?

995
00:49:04,191 --> 00:49:05,901
-[producer] Thank you.
-[Boyd] No, thank you.

996
00:49:06,526 --> 00:49:12,366
Our human desire to be able to coexist
and think about the country or the world

997
00:49:12,449 --> 00:49:17,663
instead of us versus them
within the country, it's a challenge.

998
00:49:18,705 --> 00:49:21,166
I mean, climate change is just one example

999
00:49:21,249 --> 00:49:23,752
of something
we have to work together to solve.

1000
00:49:23,835 --> 00:49:27,464
Yet now with misinformation,
that progress is at risk,

1001
00:49:28,215 --> 00:49:32,761
but I'm really hoping that we'll minimize
the damage from misinformation

1002
00:49:32,844 --> 00:49:35,973
and continue to improve
the human condition.

1003
00:49:36,974 --> 00:49:40,686
I will say there's a few things you can do
to be a bit less of an asshole

1004
00:49:41,311 --> 00:49:42,813
with that person you disagree with.

1005
00:49:42,896 --> 00:49:44,564
One, read a book. [chuckles]

1006
00:49:44,648 --> 00:49:47,526
Sit in your thoughts for a while
and somebody else's head for a while.

1007
00:49:48,026 --> 00:49:50,153
Two, travel. Anywhere.

1008
00:49:50,237 --> 00:49:52,614
Just have a different experience,
even if it's down the block.

1009
00:49:52,698 --> 00:49:55,033
And three, concede something.

1010
00:49:55,117 --> 00:49:56,952
You wanna know
what I'd like about somebody?

1011
00:49:57,035 --> 00:49:58,370
When they think I'm right,

1012
00:49:58,453 --> 00:50:01,248
and when they can admit
a vulnerability they could be wrong.

1013
00:50:01,331 --> 00:50:04,459
And I think we never have conversations
where there's any concessions.

1014
00:50:04,543 --> 00:50:06,837
If we can create
healthy enough human beings who can say,

1015
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:08,922
"I think
I might've been wrong about this…"

1016
00:50:09,006 --> 00:50:10,966
[exhales] …little crack of light.

1017
00:50:11,466 --> 00:50:14,428
[inquisitive music playing]

1018
00:50:18,181 --> 00:50:19,891
[closing theme music playing]

1019
00:50:46,460 --> 00:50:48,128
[music fades]