1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:13,722 --> 00:00:15,765 ♪♪ 4 00:00:28,570 --> 00:00:30,947 I hope we didn't keep you waiting very long. 5 00:00:30,989 --> 00:00:33,033 Not at all. I would have waited all day for this. 6 00:00:33,116 --> 00:00:34,576 You and your buddies decided 7 00:00:34,617 --> 00:00:37,746 y'all were gonna kill him and take his dope. 8 00:00:37,787 --> 00:00:40,123 You started a fire with a blowtorch. 9 00:00:40,165 --> 00:00:42,334 When did you start viewing child pornography? 10 00:00:42,417 --> 00:00:44,169 Do you actually accept responsibility, 11 00:00:44,252 --> 00:00:47,464 or is this something that you're just coasting through? 12 00:00:47,505 --> 00:00:50,008 It hurts me still. I'm hurtin'. 13 00:00:50,508 --> 00:00:52,802 I truly am sorry for what I did. 14 00:00:52,886 --> 00:00:53,887 I definitely wanna say 15 00:00:53,970 --> 00:00:55,972 I'm sorry to the family of the victim. 16 00:00:56,014 --> 00:00:58,808 I decided I needed to help myself, 17 00:00:58,850 --> 00:01:00,393 fix myself 'cause I was broke. 18 00:01:00,477 --> 00:01:02,228 No early release in your sentence. 19 00:01:02,312 --> 00:01:03,646 You will serve out your sentence. 20 00:01:03,730 --> 00:01:04,938 No early discharge. 21 00:01:04,980 --> 00:01:07,025 commissioner: Parole has been denied. Good luck to you. 22 00:01:07,108 --> 00:01:09,361 ♪♪ 23 00:01:14,991 --> 00:01:16,951 newscaster: The penologists say let a criminal know 24 00:01:16,993 --> 00:01:18,495 just how much time he's going to do 25 00:01:18,536 --> 00:01:21,539 for a certain kind of crime, and no parole. 26 00:01:22,999 --> 00:01:24,918 For four decades now the parole board 27 00:01:25,001 --> 00:01:27,170 has stockpiled human lives. 28 00:01:27,212 --> 00:01:28,588 More than 50% of people 29 00:01:28,672 --> 00:01:30,632 appearing before the board are denied parole 30 00:01:30,674 --> 00:01:33,009 and disproportionately impact people of color 31 00:01:33,093 --> 00:01:34,886 and more specifically Black men. 32 00:01:35,220 --> 00:01:37,430 Abolish parole for violent felons. 33 00:01:37,514 --> 00:01:40,725 -Violent felons belong in jail! -(applause) 34 00:01:40,809 --> 00:01:43,853 newscaster: There is outrage over a parole board's decision 35 00:01:43,937 --> 00:01:45,604 to free convicted cop killer... 36 00:01:45,689 --> 00:01:49,150 This parole board needs to be fired. 37 00:01:49,234 --> 00:01:51,194 speaker: We cannot continue to have a system 38 00:01:51,235 --> 00:01:53,113 in which the worst thing that you've ever done 39 00:01:53,196 --> 00:01:55,031 is the only thing that you are judged for. 40 00:01:55,073 --> 00:01:57,200 Judge Richard Healy: Once you've served the minimum sentence, 41 00:01:57,241 --> 00:01:58,660 then you're eligible for parole. 42 00:02:00,203 --> 00:02:03,039 Rochelle Swartz: In the 20, maybe 45 minutes 43 00:02:03,123 --> 00:02:04,332 the parole board gives you, 44 00:02:04,374 --> 00:02:07,669 can you showcase you are remorseful, 45 00:02:07,752 --> 00:02:10,588 that you are deserving of a second chance? 46 00:02:10,672 --> 00:02:14,259 speaker: That parole board interview is about freedom. 47 00:02:14,342 --> 00:02:16,469 Is there any hope for your future? 48 00:02:16,553 --> 00:02:18,221 Whether you're gonna die in prison? 49 00:02:18,263 --> 00:02:22,434 Everything is on that, that one time, that one shot. 50 00:02:22,517 --> 00:02:24,561 Carol Shapiro: The severity of the offense 51 00:02:24,602 --> 00:02:25,603 is the cornerstone 52 00:02:25,687 --> 00:02:28,481 of most parole commissioners' decision-making. 53 00:02:28,732 --> 00:02:31,484 Sabrina Scott: The commissioners always say parole denied 54 00:02:31,568 --> 00:02:33,570 due to the nature of the crime, 55 00:02:33,611 --> 00:02:36,072 but the nature of the crime is never gonna change. 56 00:02:36,114 --> 00:02:37,906 And you're supposed to look at the person 57 00:02:37,949 --> 00:02:40,035 for who they are today. 58 00:02:40,118 --> 00:02:42,328 ♪♪ 59 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,987 Todd Scott: I've been in prison over 30 years. 60 00:03:16,863 --> 00:03:20,325 I am a lifer, you know, until they let me go. 61 00:03:20,408 --> 00:03:22,911 And it's-- Until then, that's what the, um-- 62 00:03:23,328 --> 00:03:24,704 I'm designated to be. 63 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,126 I've been in prison since I was 19. 64 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:32,962 Every day I pray and ask for forgiveness. 65 00:03:34,714 --> 00:03:37,841 How can you be more remorseful? 66 00:03:38,301 --> 00:03:40,970 How do you show that you changed? 67 00:03:43,348 --> 00:03:45,016 During the parole interview 68 00:03:45,308 --> 00:03:46,768 your anxiety's building. 69 00:03:47,310 --> 00:03:49,187 The commissioners come on the screen 70 00:03:49,270 --> 00:03:53,024 and they'll say, "This is your parole interview, 71 00:03:53,608 --> 00:03:56,069 "we're gonna talk about the crimes 72 00:03:56,152 --> 00:03:57,904 you're convicted for." 73 00:04:00,615 --> 00:04:04,369 So you gotta prepare yourself for that hard conversation. 74 00:04:05,662 --> 00:04:07,122 Over the years your conscience 75 00:04:07,163 --> 00:04:10,333 opens up more and more and it's like, you know, 76 00:04:10,375 --> 00:04:13,920 now you realize the gravity of what you participated in. 77 00:04:15,130 --> 00:04:16,630 I just gotta get in there 78 00:04:16,714 --> 00:04:18,216 and convince the commissioners 79 00:04:18,298 --> 00:04:20,719 that I'm worth taking a shot on. 80 00:04:21,886 --> 00:04:25,015 I turned 54 last week. 81 00:04:27,058 --> 00:04:30,186 I'm not the same 19-year-old. 82 00:04:30,270 --> 00:04:31,604 (camera shutter clicks) 83 00:04:31,688 --> 00:04:33,189 (siren wailing) 84 00:04:33,273 --> 00:04:36,401 (camera shutters clicking) 85 00:04:36,985 --> 00:04:39,404 (wailing continues) 86 00:04:43,867 --> 00:04:45,159 (indistinct radio chatter) 87 00:04:46,119 --> 00:04:48,913 newscaster: Veteran police officers are shedding tears tonight 88 00:04:48,997 --> 00:04:51,707 for a rookie cop, executed in cold blood. 89 00:04:51,791 --> 00:04:54,377 Officer Edward Byrne was just 22 years old, 90 00:04:54,461 --> 00:04:56,796 the son of a retired police lieutenant. 91 00:04:57,547 --> 00:05:00,258 Pat Hendry: That night Eddie Byrne was assigned 92 00:05:00,342 --> 00:05:03,136 to protect a witness who was testifying 93 00:05:03,678 --> 00:05:06,056 in a high-profile drug case. 94 00:05:06,097 --> 00:05:09,434 He was parked outside that location by himself. 95 00:05:09,851 --> 00:05:12,520 reporter: The parked car pulled up with its lights off, 96 00:05:12,604 --> 00:05:14,272 two men got out and one fired 97 00:05:14,356 --> 00:05:16,733 into the patrol car killing Byrne. 98 00:05:16,816 --> 00:05:19,402 Hendry: It was shocking, they went there that night 99 00:05:19,486 --> 00:05:22,447 to assassinate a New York City police officer. 100 00:05:23,114 --> 00:05:25,283 newscaster 1: The fourth suspect is behind bars. 101 00:05:25,367 --> 00:05:27,744 newscaster 2: Todd Scott, the man who was distracting Eddie Byrne 102 00:05:27,786 --> 00:05:29,245 at the time of the shooting... 103 00:05:29,329 --> 00:05:30,747 newscaster 3: Edward Byrne was murdered 104 00:05:30,789 --> 00:05:33,249 on the instructions of a known drug lord. 105 00:05:33,291 --> 00:05:35,794 newscaster 4: Reputed crack kingpin Howard "Pappy" Mason 106 00:05:35,877 --> 00:05:37,420 has been indicted for allegedly 107 00:05:37,504 --> 00:05:40,131 ordering the Byrne hit from behind bars. 108 00:05:42,050 --> 00:05:45,553 Hendry: This was a hit from the jail cell 109 00:05:45,595 --> 00:05:48,556 of Pappy Mason to send a message 110 00:05:48,598 --> 00:05:51,976 so that they can control the streets of Jamaica, Queens. 111 00:05:52,435 --> 00:05:53,895 judge: The sentence of this court 112 00:05:53,978 --> 00:05:55,980 shall be 25 years to life 113 00:05:56,064 --> 00:05:57,649 on the murder of second degree 114 00:05:57,732 --> 00:05:59,943 with the recommendation to the parole board 115 00:06:00,026 --> 00:06:01,778 that you'll never be paroled. 116 00:06:01,820 --> 00:06:03,863 (cheering) 117 00:06:07,575 --> 00:06:10,203 Hendry: All the murderers who killed Eddie Byrnes 118 00:06:10,286 --> 00:06:13,039 got the max, 25 to life. 119 00:06:13,790 --> 00:06:16,334 Todd Scott never deserves to step foot 120 00:06:16,418 --> 00:06:17,961 on the streets ever again. 121 00:06:18,294 --> 00:06:22,382 He was there that night to kill a New York City police officer. 122 00:06:22,465 --> 00:06:24,759 He might as well pulled the trigger. 123 00:06:25,635 --> 00:06:28,013 ♪♪ 124 00:06:42,861 --> 00:06:45,196 Rhiya Trivedi: My whole job is doing 125 00:06:45,280 --> 00:06:47,449 pro bono criminal defense work. 126 00:06:49,784 --> 00:06:51,703 Almost all of my clients have been incarcerated 127 00:06:51,786 --> 00:06:53,830 for what we call life on the back. 128 00:06:53,872 --> 00:06:56,582 Twenty-five to life, fifteen to life. 129 00:06:57,792 --> 00:07:00,462 And Todd is serving 25 to life 130 00:07:00,503 --> 00:07:03,340 and 15 to life for another murder 131 00:07:03,423 --> 00:07:05,216 and they ran concurrently. 132 00:07:06,051 --> 00:07:09,179 Todd's last parole interview decision reads, 133 00:07:09,262 --> 00:07:12,182 "You caused the death of a female victim by shooting her 134 00:07:12,265 --> 00:07:13,391 "because she stole money 135 00:07:13,475 --> 00:07:15,477 "from your drug distribution organization, 136 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,020 "and in February of 1988 137 00:07:17,062 --> 00:07:21,524 "you and your co-defendants planned and executed the murder 138 00:07:21,608 --> 00:07:23,777 "of a New York City police officer. 139 00:07:23,860 --> 00:07:26,029 "While the record appears clear that you were not the one 140 00:07:26,112 --> 00:07:28,198 "who fired the shots at Officer Byrne, 141 00:07:28,281 --> 00:07:30,450 "you admitted that you were the one that distracted him 142 00:07:30,533 --> 00:07:32,702 so that the other could kill him." 143 00:07:36,039 --> 00:07:38,582 Todd struggles to discuss 144 00:07:38,667 --> 00:07:42,337 the nature and circumstances of his crime 145 00:07:42,420 --> 00:07:45,423 and so that becomes my focus. 146 00:07:45,882 --> 00:07:49,469 The work is to demonstrate insight, 147 00:07:49,552 --> 00:07:51,221 rehabilitation, and remorse. 148 00:07:51,304 --> 00:07:53,973 That's the stated logic of parole. 149 00:07:54,391 --> 00:07:56,142 (distant chatter, doors locking) 150 00:07:57,602 --> 00:07:59,437 The parole commissioners are always looking 151 00:07:59,521 --> 00:08:00,772 for some acknowledgment that, 152 00:08:00,855 --> 00:08:04,484 that what we're talking about is irreversible. 153 00:08:04,567 --> 00:08:07,612 And you're in the, the most extreme situation 154 00:08:07,696 --> 00:08:09,531 of having to communicate that to them. 155 00:08:09,572 --> 00:08:12,826 Like, remorse, like remorse, like, I, I... 156 00:08:12,909 --> 00:08:14,536 I walk with my remorse every day. 157 00:08:15,078 --> 00:08:17,580 -I carry it, I sleep with it, I wake up with it. -Mm-hmm. 158 00:08:17,664 --> 00:08:19,541 And every hearing you get new information 159 00:08:19,582 --> 00:08:21,584 about how to approach the next one. 160 00:08:21,626 --> 00:08:23,586 -Mm-hmm. -Trivedi: And we can look at the transcript 161 00:08:23,670 --> 00:08:26,214 and think about how they recognize remorse. 162 00:08:26,256 --> 00:08:28,591 Mm-hmm. Redemption is an everyday growing thing, 163 00:08:28,675 --> 00:08:31,928 it's an everyday process of bettering yourself. 164 00:08:32,011 --> 00:08:35,347 You always, you always can work on bettering yourself. 165 00:08:35,432 --> 00:08:36,515 Trivedi: Mm-hmm. 166 00:08:36,599 --> 00:08:38,684 But how, but how do they measure it? 167 00:08:39,602 --> 00:08:41,479 There was a question asked by a commissioner, 168 00:08:41,563 --> 00:08:44,983 "Are the scales balanced?" 169 00:08:45,650 --> 00:08:47,068 What did you say? 170 00:08:47,444 --> 00:08:49,612 -And I said, "Only God knows." -Hmm. 171 00:08:49,654 --> 00:08:51,114 You know, God knows best. I don't-- 172 00:08:51,156 --> 00:08:53,825 Some things that I don't know what's happening 173 00:08:54,534 --> 00:08:56,578 and I had to figure it out on the fly. 174 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:02,125 It's a question that's asking an unknowable thing. 175 00:09:02,167 --> 00:09:03,835 -Right. -Right? And I hear you saying that. 176 00:09:03,918 --> 00:09:05,795 -Mm-hmm. -Like, only God knows in the sense 177 00:09:05,837 --> 00:09:08,465 -that I sure as hell don't know, right? -Right, right. 178 00:09:08,548 --> 00:09:10,091 Trivedi: I hear you talkin' about all the ways 179 00:09:10,133 --> 00:09:11,426 you try to help people 180 00:09:11,509 --> 00:09:12,677 and the hope you have that that's true 181 00:09:12,761 --> 00:09:14,763 and, and who doesn't have that hope for themselves 182 00:09:14,804 --> 00:09:18,183 that the good they've done outweighs the bad they've done? 183 00:09:20,810 --> 00:09:22,479 Do you know what I hear when I hear that question? 184 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:23,730 Todd: What? 185 00:09:23,813 --> 00:09:26,775 Trivedi: I hear them wanting to hear from you 186 00:09:27,150 --> 00:09:30,695 that there's nothing that you could ever do 187 00:09:30,779 --> 00:09:33,031 that would repair the damage you've done. 188 00:09:35,075 --> 00:09:38,495 Yeah, I-I never looked at it that way 189 00:09:38,578 --> 00:09:40,246 but I understand what you're saying. 190 00:09:40,330 --> 00:09:42,165 Because somewhere right now 191 00:09:42,248 --> 00:09:46,628 somebody is grieving a person who is not with them 192 00:09:46,711 --> 00:09:47,921 because of a decision you made. 193 00:09:48,004 --> 00:09:50,632 I understand exactly what you're saying, you know? 194 00:09:50,715 --> 00:09:53,259 I own it. I can own my part of it. 195 00:09:53,343 --> 00:09:54,636 Trivedi: Mm-hmm. 196 00:09:54,719 --> 00:09:56,179 And that's it. 197 00:09:59,599 --> 00:10:01,851 (solemn music playing) 198 00:10:05,063 --> 00:10:07,399 -(birds chirping) -(water trickling) 199 00:10:10,610 --> 00:10:12,320 Patrick Gallivan: Sometimes when somebody does 200 00:10:12,362 --> 00:10:14,155 something so egregious, 201 00:10:14,698 --> 00:10:17,534 they forfeited their right to be amongst all of us. 202 00:10:17,575 --> 00:10:20,370 No matter what good they might do in prison. 203 00:10:21,705 --> 00:10:23,498 So, the parole board's job is to decide 204 00:10:23,540 --> 00:10:25,583 whether or not an individual 205 00:10:25,667 --> 00:10:27,836 who's serving an indeterminate sentence 206 00:10:27,919 --> 00:10:29,713 should be released on parole. 207 00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:32,090 So, all the individuals that serve 208 00:10:32,173 --> 00:10:33,341 indeterminate sentences, 209 00:10:33,383 --> 00:10:36,761 where the judge sets a minimum amount of years to serve, 210 00:10:36,845 --> 00:10:38,888 and a maximum time, three to nine, 211 00:10:38,972 --> 00:10:41,558 twenty-five to life, five to fifteen, 212 00:10:41,599 --> 00:10:42,976 those are indeterminate. 213 00:10:43,059 --> 00:10:44,728 Um, all those individuals ultimately go 214 00:10:44,769 --> 00:10:47,022 before two or three commissioners 215 00:10:47,063 --> 00:10:50,358 up to 24 months, every two years. 216 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,820 And if they're denied, another two years after that, and so on. 217 00:10:53,903 --> 00:10:57,198 I, I think the best intended commissioners 218 00:10:57,282 --> 00:10:58,825 that are trying to do their job properly 219 00:10:58,908 --> 00:11:01,995 really try to get inside, um, the inmate 220 00:11:02,078 --> 00:11:05,081 and see what insight they've had into their conduct, 221 00:11:05,165 --> 00:11:08,293 what insight they've had into their life. 222 00:11:08,376 --> 00:11:11,338 And that could include remorse 223 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,216 or it, it could include an understanding of why they, 224 00:11:15,258 --> 00:11:16,259 why they committed a crime. 225 00:11:16,301 --> 00:11:18,345 (leaves rustling) 226 00:11:22,974 --> 00:11:25,268 Chad Campbell: I've been in prison for 31 years. 227 00:11:26,728 --> 00:11:28,688 Do I forgive my 14-year-old self? 228 00:11:33,568 --> 00:11:34,527 Um... 229 00:11:34,611 --> 00:11:35,945 No. 230 00:11:39,949 --> 00:11:42,911 It's, it's not that I don't want to... 231 00:11:44,662 --> 00:11:45,997 but in doing so, in my mind, 232 00:11:46,081 --> 00:11:47,707 and I still have this problem today, 233 00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:50,710 I don't forgive myself today at 46. 234 00:11:50,794 --> 00:11:52,921 If I forgive him it makes it alright. 235 00:11:54,089 --> 00:11:55,965 And what I did is not alright. 236 00:11:56,591 --> 00:11:58,593 (siren wailing) 237 00:11:58,635 --> 00:12:00,136 newscaster 1: In the summer of 1990, 238 00:12:00,220 --> 00:12:02,514 the lives of two Palmyra families 239 00:12:02,597 --> 00:12:04,432 were forever changed. 240 00:12:05,642 --> 00:12:07,352 newscaster 2: Chad Campbell was 14 241 00:12:07,435 --> 00:12:09,145 when he was convicted of killing a classmate 242 00:12:09,187 --> 00:12:11,356 and the toddler she was babysitting. 243 00:12:14,943 --> 00:12:16,653 newscaster 3: A New York State parole board 244 00:12:16,695 --> 00:12:18,905 has denied parole to Chad Campbell. 245 00:12:19,322 --> 00:12:21,199 It will be two more years before Campbell 246 00:12:21,282 --> 00:12:23,410 will have a chance to be released from prison. 247 00:12:28,039 --> 00:12:30,250 Judge Healy: Palmyra is a small rural community 248 00:12:30,333 --> 00:12:31,418 outside of Rochester. 249 00:12:31,501 --> 00:12:34,963 There's hardly any violent crime in Palmyra. 250 00:12:37,132 --> 00:12:40,510 I was an assistant DA in Wayne County in 1990. 251 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,096 Cindy Lewis was babysitting for Curtis Rizzo. 252 00:12:44,305 --> 00:12:47,183 And they had walked behind the school 253 00:12:47,892 --> 00:12:49,686 and that's the last time they were seen. 254 00:12:49,728 --> 00:12:51,730 They just sort of disappeared, 255 00:12:52,063 --> 00:12:53,106 the police were searching, 256 00:12:53,189 --> 00:12:55,483 the entire community was searching. 257 00:12:56,109 --> 00:12:58,862 Two days later, their bodies were found. 258 00:12:59,362 --> 00:13:02,157 The victims were stabbed multiple times. 259 00:13:02,949 --> 00:13:05,827 The child was, uh, 17 months old at the time, 260 00:13:05,910 --> 00:13:07,370 Cindy Lewis was 15. 261 00:13:07,454 --> 00:13:11,833 It was just a, a, a, just a horrible crime, uh, brutal. 262 00:13:12,917 --> 00:13:15,086 I was close to the victims' families. 263 00:13:15,170 --> 00:13:16,755 They were totally devastated. 264 00:13:16,838 --> 00:13:19,257 They wanted to see justice done. 265 00:13:21,885 --> 00:13:23,553 Because Chad Campbell was only 14 266 00:13:23,636 --> 00:13:24,721 at the time of the crime, 267 00:13:24,804 --> 00:13:26,848 he was considered a juvenile offender. 268 00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:30,060 The judge gave him 18 years to life. 269 00:13:30,101 --> 00:13:32,854 That was the maximum sentence he could have received. 270 00:13:33,730 --> 00:13:34,898 newscaster: Since then, Rizzo's family 271 00:13:34,981 --> 00:13:37,067 has fought to keep him behind bars. 272 00:13:37,150 --> 00:13:40,487 He's been up for parole every two years since 2008 273 00:13:40,570 --> 00:13:41,738 and has been denied. 274 00:13:41,821 --> 00:13:44,074 ♪♪ 275 00:13:49,162 --> 00:13:52,290 voice navigation: Take the ramp to New York 495 West. 276 00:13:56,419 --> 00:13:58,713 Swartz: Chad is due for his ninth parole interview 277 00:13:58,797 --> 00:14:00,632 in just a couple of weeks. 278 00:14:00,882 --> 00:14:03,385 He's been in prison 30 years now 279 00:14:03,426 --> 00:14:06,137 and he's been denied parole eight times. 280 00:14:07,013 --> 00:14:09,766 I always make a point of trying to visit Chad 281 00:14:09,849 --> 00:14:11,518 in advance of the parole interviews 282 00:14:11,601 --> 00:14:14,187 because I know that they can be quite stressful. 283 00:14:14,729 --> 00:14:19,442 I'm going up there to have a full and complete conversation 284 00:14:19,484 --> 00:14:22,487 about not just what happened, but what we're gonna do next. 285 00:14:23,488 --> 00:14:26,908 I do several practice runs with Chad to encourage him 286 00:14:26,950 --> 00:14:29,160 to not just say, "Yes, sir, no, sir," 287 00:14:29,244 --> 00:14:31,413 but really to speak his truth. 288 00:14:32,372 --> 00:14:33,373 (birds chirping) 289 00:14:33,456 --> 00:14:34,915 -Hey. (chuckles) -Chad: How are you? 290 00:14:34,958 --> 00:14:36,209 Swartz: How's it going? 291 00:14:36,292 --> 00:14:37,836 -Chad: Good, how about yourself? -Swartz: Good. 292 00:14:37,919 --> 00:14:39,462 -Okay, so come sit down. -Chad: Okay. 293 00:14:39,504 --> 00:14:43,550 -So, it's the ninth hearing. -Chad: Yeah. 294 00:14:43,633 --> 00:14:45,176 I think I'm ready. I really do. 295 00:14:45,260 --> 00:14:48,304 I mean, they're gonna ask me the exact same questions, you know? 296 00:14:48,388 --> 00:14:51,850 And I, and I tell them, it's, it's hard for me to s-- 297 00:14:51,933 --> 00:14:53,268 you know, explain what happened. 298 00:14:53,309 --> 00:14:54,978 I think probably you're gonna deal 299 00:14:55,020 --> 00:14:57,230 with the typical questions that you always get about, 300 00:14:57,313 --> 00:14:59,482 you know, "Tell me about this crime." 301 00:14:59,566 --> 00:15:02,736 "Why did you do it? Why did you take Curtis' life?" 302 00:15:02,819 --> 00:15:05,196 Right? Like, he wasn't a danger to you. 303 00:15:05,864 --> 00:15:07,032 The commissioners are asking me 304 00:15:07,115 --> 00:15:08,783 to explain the thought process 305 00:15:08,825 --> 00:15:11,828 and the actions of a 14-year-old, at the time. 306 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,998 Um, as I'll be 46 in September, 307 00:15:15,081 --> 00:15:18,376 so, right now, a 45-year-old man who is now educated, 308 00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:20,253 you know, compared to when I came to prison... 309 00:15:21,838 --> 00:15:23,798 this is not how I feel now. 310 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,259 But this is what I felt at the time. 311 00:15:28,011 --> 00:15:29,554 It was rage. 312 00:15:29,637 --> 00:15:31,389 It was rage, um... 313 00:15:35,310 --> 00:15:37,228 I don't know if anyone's ever experienced it 314 00:15:37,312 --> 00:15:40,231 and I hope people don't, you don't stop. 315 00:15:40,899 --> 00:15:43,109 It was, it was definitely like a break 316 00:15:43,526 --> 00:15:46,488 but it didn't start with Cynthia or Curtis. 317 00:15:46,863 --> 00:15:48,698 My anger started when I was younger, 318 00:15:48,782 --> 00:15:52,327 my anger was starting from not... 319 00:15:53,870 --> 00:15:55,914 being able to identify my emotions, 320 00:15:56,122 --> 00:15:59,709 for always thinking that you were stupid, broken, 321 00:15:59,751 --> 00:16:01,086 something was wrong with you, 322 00:16:01,169 --> 00:16:04,089 that being reinforced by your mother calling you 323 00:16:04,172 --> 00:16:06,049 a stupid son of a bitch all the time. 324 00:16:06,424 --> 00:16:08,551 We knew who my mother was talking to 325 00:16:09,469 --> 00:16:11,805 by what curses she used. 326 00:16:12,430 --> 00:16:15,725 I was "stupid son of a bitch," my sister was "goddamn asshole." 327 00:16:16,976 --> 00:16:18,561 So my feelings of anger, 328 00:16:18,645 --> 00:16:21,481 it was coming from an abusive household, 329 00:16:21,856 --> 00:16:23,274 a neglectful household. 330 00:16:26,027 --> 00:16:28,238 My father's only interaction with his children 331 00:16:28,613 --> 00:16:30,907 was when it was time to discipline them 332 00:16:31,574 --> 00:16:33,952 and that usually came in the form of a fist. 333 00:16:34,452 --> 00:16:36,579 The amount of abuse that occurred in my household 334 00:16:36,663 --> 00:16:38,373 growing up was overwhelming. 335 00:16:39,749 --> 00:16:43,670 My coping mechanisms, sports, physical sports, 336 00:16:44,295 --> 00:16:46,423 I didn't wanna, you know, play tennis. 337 00:16:46,464 --> 00:16:49,050 I wanted to play football and, you know, 338 00:16:49,092 --> 00:16:51,011 try and rip your head off. 339 00:16:51,761 --> 00:16:53,847 I don't wanna blame any of that 340 00:16:54,139 --> 00:16:56,099 but I'm able to track my anger, 341 00:16:56,141 --> 00:16:59,102 I'm able to track why... 342 00:17:00,020 --> 00:17:01,771 I was violent. 343 00:17:02,981 --> 00:17:07,527 My first parole board was May 2008. 344 00:17:09,029 --> 00:17:10,613 You know, you're about to go and answer 345 00:17:10,696 --> 00:17:12,115 for the worst mistake 346 00:17:12,198 --> 00:17:14,284 you've ever made in your entire life. 347 00:17:17,619 --> 00:17:19,247 commissioner 1: What happened to that 14-year-old 348 00:17:19,289 --> 00:17:22,125 that caused you to commit such a horrendous crime? 349 00:17:22,791 --> 00:17:26,253 Chad: For 30 years I thought about that extensively. 350 00:17:26,588 --> 00:17:28,840 It's like I couldn't control myself, 351 00:17:29,215 --> 00:17:30,633 and I think it's horrible. 352 00:17:30,967 --> 00:17:34,429 I can't begin to say how sorry I am for what I've done. 353 00:17:34,471 --> 00:17:36,264 commissioner 2: To commit such a vicious act 354 00:17:36,306 --> 00:17:37,932 with such rage and violence, 355 00:17:37,974 --> 00:17:39,309 it's incomprehensible, 356 00:17:39,392 --> 00:17:42,187 what you did was just really atrocious. 357 00:17:42,270 --> 00:17:43,688 Chad: I agree. 358 00:17:44,731 --> 00:17:46,566 commissioner 1: Do you think that after serving 30 years 359 00:17:46,649 --> 00:17:49,152 you're entitled to be released at this time? 360 00:17:49,194 --> 00:17:50,612 You're asking for parole. 361 00:17:50,653 --> 00:17:54,115 You understand what you did was beyond the pale, right? 362 00:17:54,157 --> 00:17:55,617 Chad: Yes, ma'am. 363 00:17:57,869 --> 00:17:59,496 The commissioners, they ask me 364 00:17:59,579 --> 00:18:01,706 was justice served in this case? 365 00:18:02,123 --> 00:18:04,167 And, um, my answer is always no. 366 00:18:04,209 --> 00:18:07,212 I'm alive, Cynthia and Curtis are not. 367 00:18:08,546 --> 00:18:09,589 You know? 368 00:18:09,673 --> 00:18:11,049 So, you know, there-- 369 00:18:11,132 --> 00:18:12,634 there can never be justice. 370 00:18:12,717 --> 00:18:15,553 But, uh, I also say that there's a, um, 371 00:18:15,637 --> 00:18:18,014 there's a, there's a flip side to that coin, 372 00:18:18,098 --> 00:18:19,557 and it's redemption. 373 00:18:19,641 --> 00:18:21,851 Um, I know I can never redeem myself 374 00:18:21,935 --> 00:18:22,894 for what I've done. 375 00:18:22,977 --> 00:18:24,187 Never. 376 00:18:24,604 --> 00:18:26,022 Not in my eyes, I can't. 377 00:18:26,356 --> 00:18:28,483 But it doesn't stop me from chasing it. 378 00:18:28,817 --> 00:18:31,569 And I've chased it for 31 years. 379 00:18:32,904 --> 00:18:34,447 I'ma keep doing it. 380 00:18:34,906 --> 00:18:37,158 ♪♪ 381 00:18:38,034 --> 00:18:40,286 (wind blowing) 382 00:18:48,670 --> 00:18:50,630 Gallivan: The parole commissioner's job 383 00:18:50,714 --> 00:18:55,176 is to make that admittedly subjective decision 384 00:18:55,468 --> 00:18:57,721 whether or not to release the individual. 385 00:18:57,762 --> 00:18:58,596 To become a commissioner, 386 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,390 the governor nominates an individual, 387 00:19:00,432 --> 00:19:03,268 those nominees come before the Senate. 388 00:19:03,852 --> 00:19:05,770 Good afternoon, everybody. 389 00:19:05,979 --> 00:19:08,148 I'm Senator Patrick Gallivan. 390 00:19:08,231 --> 00:19:09,482 Uh, Mr. James Ferguson, 391 00:19:09,566 --> 00:19:12,444 who was a former member of the board of parole. 392 00:19:12,902 --> 00:19:14,070 Uh, my name is James Ferguson. 393 00:19:14,154 --> 00:19:16,072 I was appointed by Governor Pataki. 394 00:19:16,114 --> 00:19:17,949 Violent felons belong in jail 395 00:19:18,033 --> 00:19:20,827 and with your support that is where they are going to be. 396 00:19:20,910 --> 00:19:22,328 (applause) 397 00:19:22,412 --> 00:19:25,248 James Ferguson: Obviously, whatever governor is in charge 398 00:19:25,331 --> 00:19:28,126 is going to try to appoint people consistent 399 00:19:28,209 --> 00:19:29,252 with their philosophy, 400 00:19:29,336 --> 00:19:31,296 and commissioners are generally appointed 401 00:19:31,379 --> 00:19:32,881 for six-year terms. 402 00:19:33,631 --> 00:19:37,010 And you see the polar opposites in the parole system. 403 00:19:37,093 --> 00:19:38,762 You have one side that wants everybody 404 00:19:38,845 --> 00:19:40,597 to stay in prison forever. 405 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,975 You have the other side who wants to let everybody out. 406 00:19:44,726 --> 00:19:47,771 My own understanding of rehabilitation and redemption 407 00:19:47,854 --> 00:19:49,439 starts with Catholic school, 408 00:19:49,481 --> 00:19:52,150 where you grow up with a very strong sense 409 00:19:52,233 --> 00:19:53,985 of what is right and what is wrong. 410 00:19:54,444 --> 00:19:57,364 In my personal opinion, as commissioners, 411 00:19:57,447 --> 00:19:58,698 we don't just have a person 412 00:19:58,782 --> 00:20:01,576 who wants their freedom that we're answerable to. 413 00:20:01,618 --> 00:20:04,954 We have society not only to protect, 414 00:20:05,038 --> 00:20:06,915 but we have society who's confidence 415 00:20:06,956 --> 00:20:10,669 in the criminal justice system is essential to make it work. 416 00:20:11,127 --> 00:20:13,213 Gallivan: The final nominee before us, 417 00:20:13,296 --> 00:20:14,464 that came from the governor... 418 00:20:14,506 --> 00:20:15,799 Shapiro: I served on the parole board 419 00:20:15,882 --> 00:20:17,425 for just two years. 420 00:20:17,467 --> 00:20:19,302 I know victimization firsthand. 421 00:20:19,386 --> 00:20:21,304 My mother was crushed by a drunk driver 422 00:20:21,388 --> 00:20:23,139 when I was a child. 423 00:20:23,223 --> 00:20:26,142 But I was lucky enough to grow up with, 424 00:20:26,226 --> 00:20:29,771 um, feelings of redemption and forgiveness, 425 00:20:29,813 --> 00:20:33,191 something that we don't really talk about here. 426 00:20:33,274 --> 00:20:35,360 Part of what the parole process is, 427 00:20:35,443 --> 00:20:38,113 is determining if somebody's ready to go home. 428 00:20:38,196 --> 00:20:39,322 Now, for each of us on the board, 429 00:20:39,406 --> 00:20:41,199 that meant something different. 430 00:20:41,282 --> 00:20:44,536 Um, I look at what have you done within your time 431 00:20:44,619 --> 00:20:46,996 and have you been transformed, 432 00:20:47,038 --> 00:20:48,665 and you're no longer, you know, 433 00:20:48,707 --> 00:20:52,002 a threat to anybody, yourself, or your family. 434 00:20:52,085 --> 00:20:53,420 On a 25 to life sentence, 435 00:20:53,503 --> 00:20:55,463 does that mean they should get out at that point 436 00:20:55,505 --> 00:20:56,840 just because they're "ready"? 437 00:20:56,923 --> 00:20:59,843 You're not just there to become a better person. 438 00:20:59,926 --> 00:21:01,886 You're there to pay a debt. 439 00:21:01,970 --> 00:21:04,389 ♪♪ 440 00:21:13,314 --> 00:21:15,567 Sabrina: I hate writing this number. 441 00:21:17,027 --> 00:21:19,112 (cookie bags crinkling) 442 00:21:19,362 --> 00:21:22,866 So, I usually send him like 30 packs of tuna. 443 00:21:23,491 --> 00:21:27,287 He's on the honor block, so, he's able to cook. 444 00:21:27,787 --> 00:21:29,372 I guess that's, that's the privilege 445 00:21:29,414 --> 00:21:31,166 of being in the honor block. 446 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,963 I'm sending him some meat so it's gonna be a little wet. 447 00:21:38,882 --> 00:21:41,760 -(siren wailing) -(indistinct radio chatter) 448 00:21:43,553 --> 00:21:46,931 Todd and I grew up in South Jamaica, Queens. 449 00:21:47,015 --> 00:21:48,933 It was a dangerous world. 450 00:21:49,601 --> 00:21:52,354 Drug dealers, dirty cops. 451 00:21:55,648 --> 00:21:58,610 Oh, my goodness, this place. 452 00:21:58,943 --> 00:22:01,488 I remember when Todd used to come to my house 453 00:22:01,571 --> 00:22:05,241 to get my brother to go play basketball. 454 00:22:05,283 --> 00:22:08,953 Nobody really looked deep into Todd's life 455 00:22:09,037 --> 00:22:13,458 because he always was a smiling kid, funny, 456 00:22:13,917 --> 00:22:16,378 but it was a lot of trauma 457 00:22:16,961 --> 00:22:18,546 and he got mixed up 458 00:22:18,588 --> 00:22:22,592 with the worst people ever, drug dealers. 459 00:22:23,218 --> 00:22:26,471 We were just shocked like, "Why? Why?" 460 00:22:26,971 --> 00:22:29,140 And bottom line, it was money. 461 00:22:30,558 --> 00:22:34,604 When Todd went to prison, my heart was broken. 462 00:22:35,772 --> 00:22:38,316 We wrote for about a year and a half 463 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,361 and then I went to see him. 464 00:22:42,779 --> 00:22:46,324 That was it. I told him we were gonna get married. 465 00:22:46,741 --> 00:22:49,953 I felt like I can help him get home. 466 00:22:50,954 --> 00:22:54,207 I have created petitions in South Jamaica 467 00:22:54,290 --> 00:22:58,420 and we had over 200 people come and sign the petitions. 468 00:22:58,503 --> 00:23:00,171 People in our community 469 00:23:00,255 --> 00:23:02,298 said it was time for Todd to come home. 470 00:23:02,716 --> 00:23:05,176 -(siren wailing) -(indistinct radio chatter) 471 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,015 The truth is an officer lost his life 472 00:23:10,265 --> 00:23:13,184 and it shouldn't have happened. 473 00:23:13,643 --> 00:23:16,813 They know Todd was not the trigger man 474 00:23:16,855 --> 00:23:19,232 but because he was there, they felt like, 475 00:23:19,315 --> 00:23:22,777 "You could have called the cops, you could have did something." 476 00:23:23,069 --> 00:23:26,364 But when you're in that life, in the streets, 477 00:23:26,448 --> 00:23:27,824 there's other rules. 478 00:23:27,907 --> 00:23:30,326 "If you don't do what I tell you to do." 479 00:23:30,368 --> 00:23:31,995 Like, "This is a order." 480 00:23:32,037 --> 00:23:33,830 "We know where you live." 481 00:23:33,872 --> 00:23:35,957 ♪♪ 482 00:23:42,922 --> 00:23:44,299 Trivedi: Okay, you want the transcript? 483 00:23:44,341 --> 00:23:45,467 Ron Kuby: I want the transcript. 484 00:23:45,717 --> 00:23:47,635 Oh, here we go. You ready? 485 00:23:47,719 --> 00:23:49,596 -Yeah. Yeah. -Trivedi: Hoo. 486 00:23:50,096 --> 00:23:55,143 I discuss everything with Kuby in terms of my approach. 487 00:23:55,393 --> 00:23:56,770 We process these things together 488 00:23:56,853 --> 00:23:59,397 because it's emotional for us. 489 00:23:59,481 --> 00:24:00,815 From the board's perspective, 490 00:24:00,857 --> 00:24:03,985 they see someone who was willing to participate 491 00:24:04,069 --> 00:24:05,111 in the taking of a life... 492 00:24:06,446 --> 00:24:09,699 on orders from a person 493 00:24:09,741 --> 00:24:12,452 who was not Todd's biological family 494 00:24:12,535 --> 00:24:15,830 nor who had the kind of power over Todd 495 00:24:15,914 --> 00:24:18,291 that they recognize as duress or coercion. 496 00:24:19,084 --> 00:24:20,794 But I think it has to do with the extent 497 00:24:20,877 --> 00:24:23,588 to which he was abandoned, abused, 498 00:24:23,672 --> 00:24:27,175 neglected from a profoundly early age 499 00:24:27,717 --> 00:24:31,054 and how he found family in this organization. 500 00:24:31,763 --> 00:24:34,432 And so when he received orders to do a thing, 501 00:24:34,891 --> 00:24:38,520 it was as though he was being told to do them by a parent 502 00:24:38,561 --> 00:24:40,855 in a context where it made sense. 503 00:24:40,897 --> 00:24:43,525 Right. They adopted him, they took care of him, 504 00:24:43,566 --> 00:24:47,737 they gave him a security, both financial and physical, 505 00:24:47,821 --> 00:24:50,115 that he didn't have at home and, 506 00:24:50,198 --> 00:24:53,868 you know, that's gotta be extraordinarily attractive 507 00:24:53,952 --> 00:24:57,080 to a 15-year-old who basically is on his own. 508 00:24:58,581 --> 00:25:00,709 Trivedi: I don't know that there was any instance 509 00:25:00,750 --> 00:25:03,253 where the parole commissioners acknowledged 510 00:25:03,336 --> 00:25:04,963 that the story of his family 511 00:25:05,046 --> 00:25:07,465 and his abandonment and his homelessness 512 00:25:08,174 --> 00:25:12,095 is the story of how he came to take orders from 513 00:25:12,137 --> 00:25:16,182 these older, more established street leaders. 514 00:25:16,266 --> 00:25:17,434 I need to talk to him about it 515 00:25:17,517 --> 00:25:20,562 because he refuses to see himself as a victim. 516 00:25:20,645 --> 00:25:24,649 There's a way for somebody to sort of tell that story 517 00:25:24,733 --> 00:25:27,902 about how this happens. 518 00:25:27,944 --> 00:25:29,612 -(tense music playing) -(subway tracks screeching) 519 00:25:29,654 --> 00:25:32,282 And to understand the significance of Todd's case 520 00:25:32,365 --> 00:25:33,908 we need to go back a little bit 521 00:25:33,950 --> 00:25:36,619 and get a sense of what New York was like 522 00:25:36,661 --> 00:25:38,830 -in the '70s and '80s. -(sirens wailing) 523 00:25:39,831 --> 00:25:41,666 New York City was bankrupt. 524 00:25:42,625 --> 00:25:46,338 And with it comes the crack epidemic. 525 00:25:47,005 --> 00:25:48,173 newscaster: Manhattan narcotic cops 526 00:25:48,256 --> 00:25:49,924 arrested more than 30 people in one building 527 00:25:49,966 --> 00:25:53,136 for allegedly dealing a new form of cocaine known as crack. 528 00:25:53,386 --> 00:25:56,765 Kuby: The police were unleashed. 529 00:25:56,848 --> 00:25:59,851 So there was this huge mistrust 530 00:25:59,934 --> 00:26:03,063 in communities of color of the police. 531 00:26:04,856 --> 00:26:08,651 And then the entire narrative changed. 532 00:26:08,735 --> 00:26:09,986 newscaster 1: Rookie officer Eddie Byrne 533 00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:11,613 was murdered by a drug dealer. 534 00:26:11,654 --> 00:26:14,449 newscaster 2: Howard "Pappy" Mason has denied any involvement 535 00:26:14,491 --> 00:26:16,201 with drugs and Byrne's murder. 536 00:26:16,284 --> 00:26:19,204 The four men convicted are allegedly in the Bebo gang. 537 00:26:19,287 --> 00:26:21,331 Their cult-like reverence for their leader 538 00:26:21,373 --> 00:26:22,665 said to be so strong, 539 00:26:22,749 --> 00:26:24,834 they carried out Mason's contract one day 540 00:26:24,918 --> 00:26:27,253 after he was jailed on a weapons charge. 541 00:26:28,213 --> 00:26:31,216 Kuby: Eddie Byrne was a kid, I mean, he was 21 years old. 542 00:26:31,299 --> 00:26:32,884 And when he was murdered 543 00:26:32,967 --> 00:26:35,095 there was a lot of community outrage. 544 00:26:35,428 --> 00:26:36,721 This was horrific. 545 00:26:36,805 --> 00:26:38,473 reporter: The shooting of Officer Edward Byrne 546 00:26:38,515 --> 00:26:40,266 is the case of good guy versus bad guy. 547 00:26:40,517 --> 00:26:41,976 Kuby: This was a hero cop 548 00:26:42,018 --> 00:26:46,815 and he died in service of the community. 549 00:26:47,315 --> 00:26:49,192 And now the police finally, 550 00:26:49,275 --> 00:26:53,446 instead of being called pigs and murderers, were embraced 551 00:26:53,530 --> 00:26:59,369 and so the police and the community are now united. 552 00:26:59,411 --> 00:27:01,413 officer: ...police! Search warrant! 553 00:27:01,496 --> 00:27:02,706 Rudy Giuliani: We need a death penalty 554 00:27:02,789 --> 00:27:04,708 for people who murder police officers. 555 00:27:04,749 --> 00:27:07,168 We need life imprisonment for major drug dealers. 556 00:27:07,210 --> 00:27:11,881 Kuby: Eddie Byrne became a rallying cry against crime 557 00:27:11,965 --> 00:27:16,261 and for mass arrests and mass incarceration. 558 00:27:16,344 --> 00:27:19,931 This is the badge of a fallen police officer, 559 00:27:20,348 --> 00:27:23,685 New York cop that many of y'all knew, Eddie Byrne. 560 00:27:23,768 --> 00:27:25,186 Kuby: George Herbert Walker Bush, 561 00:27:25,228 --> 00:27:26,563 when he was running for president 562 00:27:26,646 --> 00:27:28,857 he carried Eddie Byrne's badge with him. 563 00:27:28,940 --> 00:27:32,902 Politicians all over the country use this 564 00:27:32,944 --> 00:27:35,572 and it paved the way for judges to hand out 565 00:27:35,613 --> 00:27:37,907 every maximum sentence available. 566 00:27:37,991 --> 00:27:39,617 The sentence of the court is 567 00:27:39,701 --> 00:27:41,870 twenty-five years to life with the recommendation 568 00:27:41,953 --> 00:27:43,496 that you'll never be paroled. 569 00:27:43,580 --> 00:27:45,582 (cheering) 570 00:27:46,166 --> 00:27:48,877 The most depressing thing for me personally 571 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,087 is that he's done 33 years, 572 00:27:51,129 --> 00:27:54,299 and, I mean, you actually become eligible for parole 573 00:27:54,382 --> 00:27:59,471 for a cop killing in the real world after 45. 574 00:27:59,554 --> 00:28:02,682 -Who has gotten out before 45? -Trivedi: No, that's, that's it. 575 00:28:02,766 --> 00:28:04,893 I don't seriously consider him to be parole eligible 576 00:28:04,976 --> 00:28:06,686 for at least another seven years, 577 00:28:06,770 --> 00:28:08,813 and that might be, um, 578 00:28:08,897 --> 00:28:11,608 wishful thinking in and of itself 579 00:28:11,691 --> 00:28:13,068 which disturbs me, honestly. 580 00:28:13,109 --> 00:28:16,446 Like, is bursting that bubble my job? 581 00:28:16,529 --> 00:28:17,572 Nope. 582 00:28:17,822 --> 00:28:20,742 Nope! That's not our job. 583 00:28:20,825 --> 00:28:23,286 (ambient city street noise) 584 00:28:26,498 --> 00:28:28,500 (office phones ringing) 585 00:28:29,417 --> 00:28:32,629 Swartz: Chad Campbell has been in prison for 32 years. 586 00:28:32,712 --> 00:28:34,798 I originally got involved in his case 587 00:28:34,881 --> 00:28:37,759 after he was denied parole for the fifth time, 588 00:28:37,842 --> 00:28:39,678 which was about two years ago. 589 00:28:40,095 --> 00:28:43,848 I had no exposure to parole, to incarceration issues, 590 00:28:43,932 --> 00:28:45,392 to really any of that. 591 00:28:45,892 --> 00:28:47,727 I'm a commercial litigator, 592 00:28:47,811 --> 00:28:51,398 but the pro bono partner here at Orrick said to me, 593 00:28:51,481 --> 00:28:53,316 "Hey, we have an oral argument in seven days 594 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:54,567 "and nobody can handle it 595 00:28:54,651 --> 00:28:56,736 and it would be a great experience." 596 00:28:56,820 --> 00:28:59,823 And I said, "Okay, sure. I guess I'll try that." 597 00:29:02,867 --> 00:29:06,788 If you're denied parole you can file an appeal 598 00:29:06,830 --> 00:29:08,206 where you go to court 599 00:29:08,289 --> 00:29:12,335 and you argue that the board did something wrong. 600 00:29:13,169 --> 00:29:15,171 Even if you convince the court 601 00:29:15,213 --> 00:29:17,007 that the parole board did something wrong, 602 00:29:17,090 --> 00:29:22,012 New York courts are not willing to release a parole applicant. 603 00:29:22,345 --> 00:29:25,390 They'll say, "Okay, you can have a new parole interview." 604 00:29:26,057 --> 00:29:28,226 Your Honors, my client would be the first to tell you 605 00:29:28,309 --> 00:29:31,104 that the crime he committed was truly horrible. 606 00:29:31,187 --> 00:29:34,315 However, he committed that crime when he was 14 years old. 607 00:29:34,858 --> 00:29:36,818 To what extent are these crimes 608 00:29:36,860 --> 00:29:38,153 that these child offenders commit 609 00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:40,030 part of transient immaturity? 610 00:29:40,488 --> 00:29:43,533 This is now the fifth time that he's been denied parole. 611 00:29:43,616 --> 00:29:45,577 All you're really left with is saying, 612 00:29:45,660 --> 00:29:47,871 "Basically, this crime was so serious 613 00:29:47,912 --> 00:29:50,040 that no remorse could ever be enough." 614 00:29:50,665 --> 00:29:53,126 Frankly, I believe that the parole board 615 00:29:53,209 --> 00:29:55,754 is being allowed to sentence Mr. Campbell, 616 00:29:55,837 --> 00:29:58,381 who was a child offender, to life in prison 617 00:29:58,465 --> 00:29:59,799 in two-year intervals. 618 00:30:00,175 --> 00:30:01,092 Thank you. 619 00:30:01,176 --> 00:30:02,385 Swartz: Thank you, Your Honors. 620 00:30:02,427 --> 00:30:03,636 Respondent, please. 621 00:30:03,928 --> 00:30:06,806 You have these very troubling facts 622 00:30:06,890 --> 00:30:10,852 of the underlying crime and the board wants to ensure, 623 00:30:10,894 --> 00:30:13,813 having the responsibility for discretionary release, 624 00:30:14,147 --> 00:30:17,734 that Mr. Campbell truly understands 625 00:30:17,776 --> 00:30:19,611 what happened that day. 626 00:30:19,944 --> 00:30:23,281 The board is asking open-ended questions, 627 00:30:23,365 --> 00:30:25,533 "Why did you do something like this? 628 00:30:25,575 --> 00:30:27,827 "How did Cynthia Lewis end up dead? 629 00:30:27,911 --> 00:30:29,996 What were you thinking at the time that you--" 630 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,832 How is that ever gonna change by the way? 631 00:30:32,916 --> 00:30:34,793 Does that mean he's gonna stay in jail 632 00:30:34,876 --> 00:30:38,171 as a 14-year-old offender until he's 80? 633 00:30:38,254 --> 00:30:40,256 Till he's 90? Till a thousand? 634 00:30:40,298 --> 00:30:43,927 When does that ever change if that's a factor? 635 00:30:44,427 --> 00:30:46,304 Swartz: Appeals are really hard to win, 636 00:30:46,388 --> 00:30:49,307 and not surprisingly we lost that one, 637 00:30:49,974 --> 00:30:51,559 which for me highlights 638 00:30:51,601 --> 00:30:56,690 this retributivist idea of justice that we have, 639 00:30:57,315 --> 00:31:01,778 that the only correct outcome for a violent crime 640 00:31:01,861 --> 00:31:04,072 is to put someone away for life. 641 00:31:05,281 --> 00:31:07,992 Before I met Chad I wouldn't necessarily 642 00:31:08,076 --> 00:31:10,286 have disagreed with that approach. 643 00:31:10,370 --> 00:31:12,122 If someone commits a violent crime, 644 00:31:12,205 --> 00:31:14,749 they should just spend the rest of their life in prison. 645 00:31:14,791 --> 00:31:17,711 But once I got to know Chad, 646 00:31:17,794 --> 00:31:19,462 got to know the facts of the case, 647 00:31:19,546 --> 00:31:22,924 he's never committed another act of violence in 30 years. 648 00:31:22,966 --> 00:31:25,260 He's grown and changed in an environment 649 00:31:25,343 --> 00:31:28,930 that does not foster growth and change. 650 00:31:30,682 --> 00:31:34,144 Chad: When I came in at 14, I pushed everything aside. 651 00:31:34,185 --> 00:31:36,771 I compartmentalized it and locked it away. 652 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,316 Then, over the years, through some of the programs, 653 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,402 I was able to deal with things gradually. 654 00:31:42,485 --> 00:31:44,946 ♪♪ 655 00:31:45,363 --> 00:31:47,699 The things I'm involved in in here, 656 00:31:48,074 --> 00:31:51,202 you know, grievance, Bard, all the things I do. 657 00:31:52,370 --> 00:31:55,040 It's my way of trying, and that's all I can do, 658 00:31:55,123 --> 00:31:57,208 and I'm not gonna stop doing that. 659 00:31:58,001 --> 00:32:00,879 But I took two innocent people's lives, 660 00:32:01,379 --> 00:32:03,506 so for me to say, you know, "Look at me, 661 00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:05,258 I'm doing great things now," 662 00:32:05,342 --> 00:32:08,803 um, I think that dishonors, um, the m-- 663 00:32:08,845 --> 00:32:10,138 you know, their memory basically, 664 00:32:10,180 --> 00:32:11,639 and I have a hard time doing that. 665 00:32:12,432 --> 00:32:14,017 It really comes down to the commissioners 666 00:32:14,059 --> 00:32:16,561 and how they, you know, ask the questions. 667 00:32:18,188 --> 00:32:20,565 In my last hearing I was asked a simple question. 668 00:32:20,940 --> 00:32:22,317 "Do you think you deserve to go home?" 669 00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:25,820 And my initial response was, "Do I deserve it?" 670 00:32:26,279 --> 00:32:27,364 When you start weighing everything 671 00:32:27,405 --> 00:32:29,491 there's times I'm like, "No, I don't." 672 00:32:31,451 --> 00:32:32,619 Why should I-- 673 00:32:32,702 --> 00:32:33,703 If I forgive myself, 674 00:32:33,787 --> 00:32:35,288 it's almost like I'm at peace with it. 675 00:32:35,372 --> 00:32:37,082 I don't wanna be at peace with it. 676 00:32:41,628 --> 00:32:44,047 You've had 30 years in order to think 677 00:32:44,089 --> 00:32:46,091 about what you've done. 678 00:32:47,384 --> 00:32:48,885 So I know my answers, but it doesn't help 679 00:32:48,927 --> 00:32:49,969 when you get in front of them. 680 00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:51,930 You're nervous. You're scared. 681 00:32:52,013 --> 00:32:55,433 And you know every word that comes out of your mouth 682 00:32:55,517 --> 00:32:58,395 could determine whether or not you're released. 683 00:32:58,436 --> 00:33:00,730 Whether or not you gain your freedom back again. 684 00:33:01,147 --> 00:33:03,400 (tense music playing) 685 00:33:10,323 --> 00:33:12,325 commissioner: Why did you call Cindy? 686 00:33:12,409 --> 00:33:14,411 Chad: She lived right down the street 687 00:33:14,494 --> 00:33:16,579 and I suspected she liked me. 688 00:33:17,706 --> 00:33:19,708 commissioner: I know there was a stabbing, 689 00:33:19,749 --> 00:33:23,294 which I believe I read was 40-plus stab wounds. 690 00:33:24,379 --> 00:33:25,964 Chad: I just wanted to hurt somebody. 691 00:33:26,047 --> 00:33:27,215 It was an impulsive decision 692 00:33:27,257 --> 00:33:29,009 that I knew would be hurtful, 693 00:33:29,092 --> 00:33:30,427 and I know it's wrong, 694 00:33:30,468 --> 00:33:33,346 and I can't say how sorry I am for everything. 695 00:33:34,014 --> 00:33:36,016 commissioner: And when did you stab Curtis? 696 00:33:36,474 --> 00:33:38,059 Chad: After I stabbed Cindy, 697 00:33:38,143 --> 00:33:41,396 he was crying, and I was still angry. 698 00:33:41,479 --> 00:33:42,355 I was scared. 699 00:33:42,439 --> 00:33:44,149 The best I could explain it, 700 00:33:44,232 --> 00:33:45,942 there was so much noise, 701 00:33:45,984 --> 00:33:48,111 I didn't want any noise in my head, 702 00:33:48,153 --> 00:33:50,447 and I reached over and I stabbed him. 703 00:33:51,823 --> 00:33:54,617 I couldn't process fear like normal people could. 704 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,038 Frustration or guilt or remorse. 705 00:33:58,121 --> 00:34:00,457 Everything came across as anger. 706 00:34:01,958 --> 00:34:04,711 commissioner: Mr. Campbell, you've given us a lot to think about, 707 00:34:05,253 --> 00:34:06,963 a lot to deliberate about. 708 00:34:07,005 --> 00:34:09,257 ♪♪ 709 00:34:13,553 --> 00:34:15,638 (music fades out) 710 00:34:17,306 --> 00:34:18,600 Gallivan: Who makes sure that as a commissioner, 711 00:34:18,683 --> 00:34:20,143 that you are doing your job properly 712 00:34:20,435 --> 00:34:22,353 and complying with the law? 713 00:34:24,063 --> 00:34:25,023 No one. 714 00:34:25,106 --> 00:34:26,274 Fred Akshar: Would you say that 715 00:34:26,315 --> 00:34:27,859 members of the board are overworked? 716 00:34:28,318 --> 00:34:29,360 Ferguson: Without question. 717 00:34:29,444 --> 00:34:30,862 So a typical day on the parole board is, 718 00:34:30,945 --> 00:34:35,158 the commissioners will be given 10, 20, 30 cases each 719 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:36,409 to immediately start reviewing. 720 00:34:36,493 --> 00:34:39,036 These files are eight inches thick. 721 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,164 You are supposed to be reviewing a folder 722 00:34:41,206 --> 00:34:43,123 while you are simultaneously listening 723 00:34:43,166 --> 00:34:45,418 to an inmate's application for release. 724 00:34:45,752 --> 00:34:48,797 Shapiro: You're really not trained for this job. 725 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:50,590 I knew very little going in. 726 00:34:50,674 --> 00:34:53,176 And oftentimes we're seeing the case 727 00:34:53,259 --> 00:34:54,719 for the first time that morning, 728 00:34:54,803 --> 00:34:58,139 and you may have 15, 20 minutes to review the file. 729 00:34:58,181 --> 00:35:01,685 We are told to follow the statutes, 730 00:35:01,768 --> 00:35:03,853 and make our decisions 731 00:35:03,937 --> 00:35:06,940 based on a certain set of criteria. 732 00:35:07,023 --> 00:35:08,441 There's risk instruments, 733 00:35:08,525 --> 00:35:12,278 there's institutional accomplishments, 734 00:35:12,779 --> 00:35:14,739 the severity of the offense 735 00:35:14,823 --> 00:35:16,574 tends to be the cornerstone 736 00:35:16,658 --> 00:35:20,161 of most parole commissioners' decision-making. 737 00:35:20,203 --> 00:35:21,996 If you look at the majority of the people 738 00:35:22,038 --> 00:35:24,624 who committed heinous crimes, the reason they're denied parole 739 00:35:24,708 --> 00:35:27,252 is because of the severity of the crime. 740 00:35:30,463 --> 00:35:33,258 Todd: What I did, it still hangs heavy over me. 741 00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:36,344 So when I go in front of the parole board, 742 00:35:36,386 --> 00:35:38,263 it's just hard to explain. 743 00:35:38,471 --> 00:35:42,767 It's hard, you know, um, I got to prepare myself 744 00:35:43,059 --> 00:35:46,604 every two years to explain it to strangers. 745 00:35:47,731 --> 00:35:51,901 You're dredging up stuff that, it's not easy reliving it. 746 00:35:51,943 --> 00:35:53,778 It's not easy talking about it. 747 00:35:54,779 --> 00:35:57,240 (solemn music playing) 748 00:35:57,323 --> 00:35:59,659 My mother had me when she was 16. 749 00:35:59,743 --> 00:36:02,287 So my mother was in the streets. 750 00:36:04,289 --> 00:36:07,542 I took this picture of my mother. 751 00:36:07,584 --> 00:36:10,295 This is one of the times when she was real sober, 752 00:36:10,879 --> 00:36:14,841 um, you know, when my sister, little sister was born. 753 00:36:14,924 --> 00:36:18,470 She was, she was carrying me in this picture, so... 754 00:36:19,596 --> 00:36:23,767 When I was born, I was born addicted to heroin. 755 00:36:24,809 --> 00:36:26,728 So my grandmother raised me. 756 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,940 My grandmother was struggling, living in the projects. 757 00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:35,570 My mother had two more children, 758 00:36:35,612 --> 00:36:37,405 I had to really care for my siblings 759 00:36:37,447 --> 00:36:39,783 'cause both of my parents was drugs addicts. 760 00:36:39,866 --> 00:36:41,701 (children chattering) 761 00:36:41,785 --> 00:36:47,123 I had an uncle and he really made life hard at home. 762 00:36:47,165 --> 00:36:50,085 The physical abuse, and verbal. 763 00:36:50,627 --> 00:36:52,712 I could have left, I could have ran away 764 00:36:52,796 --> 00:36:56,299 but I had to stay and protect my siblings from my uncle, 765 00:36:57,092 --> 00:37:00,345 face the abuse so they wouldn't have to go through nothing. 766 00:37:02,722 --> 00:37:05,350 The guys you hang with, they become your family. 767 00:37:05,433 --> 00:37:07,477 I got hand-me-downs from hustlers 768 00:37:07,519 --> 00:37:09,896 and that's what draws you in. 769 00:37:10,105 --> 00:37:11,690 But that's the thing with gangs. 770 00:37:11,773 --> 00:37:14,234 These are the people that making sure you eat. 771 00:37:14,317 --> 00:37:16,569 Money in your pocket. A place to live. 772 00:37:18,154 --> 00:37:19,322 I never had a birthday party 773 00:37:19,406 --> 00:37:21,741 until I started hanging out with these guys. 774 00:37:22,534 --> 00:37:26,705 They take care of you. You become a band of brothers. 775 00:37:27,997 --> 00:37:30,500 My first appearance before the parole board, 776 00:37:30,583 --> 00:37:32,669 I was not prepared at all. 777 00:37:32,711 --> 00:37:35,755 When I went in, they tore me up. 778 00:37:36,506 --> 00:37:38,633 commissioner: You were influenced by these guys. 779 00:37:38,675 --> 00:37:41,344 You were influenced by the money, the prestige. 780 00:37:41,386 --> 00:37:42,804 Am I correct? 781 00:37:43,096 --> 00:37:44,556 Todd: You are correct. 782 00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:46,599 commissioner: You were an enforcer, 783 00:37:46,683 --> 00:37:49,352 with the potential to put lead into somebody. 784 00:37:49,436 --> 00:37:51,396 That is a job you took. 785 00:37:51,938 --> 00:37:53,314 You were cold and callous. 786 00:37:53,356 --> 00:37:56,026 You had the opportunity to apologize and you didn't. 787 00:37:56,067 --> 00:37:57,736 You were very evasive. 788 00:38:01,364 --> 00:38:04,075 Todd: My actions led to a lot of hurt. 789 00:38:04,534 --> 00:38:07,287 my impulsiveness and my recklessness. 790 00:38:08,329 --> 00:38:12,417 I wasn't raised that way, you know? 791 00:38:12,500 --> 00:38:16,671 No matter what we went through, we wasn't raised to harm people. 792 00:38:16,963 --> 00:38:20,800 Let alone, you know, take lives, you know? 793 00:38:21,509 --> 00:38:24,095 I acknowledged the crime long ago 794 00:38:24,179 --> 00:38:27,098 but facing it is a different thing. 795 00:38:27,182 --> 00:38:29,100 It's, it's a, it's a shamefulness. 796 00:38:29,184 --> 00:38:31,186 It's, it's for real, it's, it's like... 797 00:38:31,728 --> 00:38:35,315 you know, it's hard to, to talk about it. 798 00:38:35,565 --> 00:38:38,401 I can say, like, "I didn't, I didn't pull the trigger." 799 00:38:38,485 --> 00:38:40,987 It's easy to say that, but I... 800 00:38:41,738 --> 00:38:42,781 you... 801 00:38:43,073 --> 00:38:44,074 I played a role in it. 802 00:38:44,115 --> 00:38:47,202 So you're just as guilty, you know? 803 00:38:47,285 --> 00:38:50,413 I own it and I'm responsible for it. 804 00:38:50,872 --> 00:38:52,540 That's what it is. 805 00:38:53,041 --> 00:38:55,502 ♪♪ 806 00:39:04,469 --> 00:39:06,429 (line ringing) 807 00:39:06,471 --> 00:39:10,100 automated response: An inmate at New York State Department of Corrections 808 00:39:10,141 --> 00:39:11,893 and Community Supervision. 809 00:39:11,976 --> 00:39:14,145 You may start the conversation now. 810 00:39:14,229 --> 00:39:15,230 Sabrina: Hey, babe. 811 00:39:15,313 --> 00:39:16,398 Todd (on phone): What's up, mama? 812 00:39:16,690 --> 00:39:19,150 I'm, I'm happy to hear your voice. 813 00:39:19,234 --> 00:39:21,820 (Todd speaking) 814 00:39:24,155 --> 00:39:28,118 Sabrina: The parole hearing, it's like waiting to see 815 00:39:28,201 --> 00:39:32,205 if your life is gonna end or if it's gonna begin. 816 00:39:32,664 --> 00:39:35,458 We have literally days before Todd 817 00:39:35,542 --> 00:39:39,045 goes to his fifth parole hearing. 818 00:39:39,671 --> 00:39:42,257 And we out here, believe that. 819 00:39:42,340 --> 00:39:46,136 (Todd speaking) 820 00:39:46,219 --> 00:39:47,554 Absolutely. 821 00:39:55,311 --> 00:39:59,691 Just another thing we just have to jump over. 822 00:40:03,445 --> 00:40:04,863 I'm just full. 823 00:40:05,530 --> 00:40:08,867 It's... been a long time. 824 00:40:09,701 --> 00:40:11,703 It's time for him to come home. 825 00:40:18,335 --> 00:40:20,712 (exhales, sniffles) 826 00:40:29,304 --> 00:40:31,348 (tense music playing) 827 00:40:32,349 --> 00:40:36,144 commissioner: Now, sir, the details here are as follows, 828 00:40:36,519 --> 00:40:38,938 late February 1988, you, in concert, 829 00:40:39,022 --> 00:40:41,358 shot and killed a New York City police officer 830 00:40:41,441 --> 00:40:43,360 who was sitting in his patrol car. 831 00:40:43,401 --> 00:40:46,571 The shooting was a hit ordered by incarcerated drug lords 832 00:40:46,654 --> 00:40:49,908 who were angry at the police's assault on their empire. 833 00:40:50,450 --> 00:40:51,534 Todd: Okay. 834 00:40:51,618 --> 00:40:52,786 commissioner: You were how old? 835 00:40:52,869 --> 00:40:55,413 Todd: I just turned 19 in November. 836 00:40:55,497 --> 00:40:56,873 Honestly, in my mind, 837 00:40:56,956 --> 00:40:59,042 I honestly felt like I didn't shoot him, 838 00:40:59,084 --> 00:41:01,211 but I'm just as culpable, you know? 839 00:41:01,503 --> 00:41:05,382 I know that now but back then my cognizance wasn't correct. 840 00:41:05,674 --> 00:41:07,467 I don't mean to minimize things. 841 00:41:07,842 --> 00:41:10,887 Sometimes it is really emotional for me, 842 00:41:10,970 --> 00:41:13,181 how everything percolates in your mind. 843 00:41:13,223 --> 00:41:16,976 commissioner: But I need you to tell me what it is. 844 00:41:17,268 --> 00:41:18,728 It started out as errands, 845 00:41:18,812 --> 00:41:21,022 but came to full-blown drug deals. 846 00:41:21,064 --> 00:41:24,859 You were an enforcer, that's what it is. 847 00:41:24,901 --> 00:41:28,655 Todd: I'm nervous, I'm usually a better speaker than this. 848 00:41:28,738 --> 00:41:30,532 This is not easy to speak about. 849 00:41:30,573 --> 00:41:33,576 But I am not that same individual, 850 00:41:33,618 --> 00:41:35,745 that 19-year-old. 851 00:41:35,787 --> 00:41:37,789 I'm far from that now. 852 00:41:39,499 --> 00:41:40,750 (music fades out) 853 00:41:45,714 --> 00:41:48,174 (traffic noise, cars honking) 854 00:41:48,258 --> 00:41:51,594 Swartz: Chad went to his ninth parole hearing. 855 00:41:51,678 --> 00:41:54,222 He emailed me yesterday to let me know 856 00:41:54,264 --> 00:41:55,849 that he received the decision. 857 00:41:56,474 --> 00:41:59,019 automated response: You may start the conversation now. 858 00:41:59,811 --> 00:42:02,022 -Swartz: Chad? -Chad (on phone): Hey, how you doin'? 859 00:42:02,105 --> 00:42:03,898 -Hey. -Chad: Alright. 860 00:42:03,982 --> 00:42:05,108 -Swartz: Okay. -Chad: You ready? 861 00:42:05,191 --> 00:42:06,276 Swartz: I'm ready. 862 00:42:06,359 --> 00:42:07,485 Chad: Alright, denied. 863 00:42:07,569 --> 00:42:09,154 Hold for 15 months. 864 00:42:09,446 --> 00:42:12,949 "The panel finds that you failed to express genuine remorse 865 00:42:13,033 --> 00:42:16,244 "or meaningful empathy for your victims and their families 866 00:42:16,286 --> 00:42:18,788 "who will forever be impacted by your actions. 867 00:42:18,830 --> 00:42:20,623 "As such, this panel is not convinced 868 00:42:20,665 --> 00:42:22,834 "your rehabilitation is complete. 869 00:42:23,168 --> 00:42:25,795 Your release at this time would so depreciate..." 870 00:42:25,879 --> 00:42:27,088 -Swartz: "Deprecate." -Chad: Yeah. 871 00:42:27,172 --> 00:42:29,049 "...the serious nature of your crime 872 00:42:29,132 --> 00:42:32,177 as to undermine respect for the law." 873 00:42:33,678 --> 00:42:35,180 Swartz: Are you okay? 874 00:42:35,805 --> 00:42:37,349 Chad: (sighs) Um... 875 00:42:40,185 --> 00:42:41,144 Yeah. 876 00:42:41,186 --> 00:42:42,562 -Chad: Um... -Me too. 877 00:42:42,937 --> 00:42:45,523 It's really, really frustrating. 878 00:42:45,607 --> 00:42:48,568 (Chad speaking) 879 00:42:51,905 --> 00:42:52,947 Nah. 880 00:42:53,490 --> 00:42:55,116 Mm-mm. No. 881 00:43:07,504 --> 00:43:09,756 Swartz: Okay. Whatever you need to do 882 00:43:09,839 --> 00:43:12,467 and if you, like, want me to come up, I'll come up. 883 00:43:12,550 --> 00:43:14,094 You know I will. 884 00:43:14,177 --> 00:43:15,220 We're gonna give 'em hell. 885 00:43:15,303 --> 00:43:17,013 We're gonna keep giving 'em hell. 886 00:43:18,848 --> 00:43:19,891 Hang in. 887 00:43:20,350 --> 00:43:21,518 Okay. 888 00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:23,144 Alright. Bye. 889 00:43:25,689 --> 00:43:28,400 The statute says, "If release would so deprecate 890 00:43:28,483 --> 00:43:30,151 "the seriousness of the offense 891 00:43:30,235 --> 00:43:32,320 as to undermine respect for the law." 892 00:43:32,779 --> 00:43:35,323 That is a fallback, catch-all 893 00:43:35,365 --> 00:43:39,119 to justify denying him release. 894 00:43:40,995 --> 00:43:45,000 A lot of my colleagues really focus on the index crime, 895 00:43:45,083 --> 00:43:47,252 the crime that got them behind bars. 896 00:43:49,295 --> 00:43:51,965 The deprecation clause is the ticket out 897 00:43:52,048 --> 00:43:55,010 for any commissioner who doesn't wanna release somebody 898 00:43:55,093 --> 00:43:58,304 and it's basically saying a static event 899 00:43:58,388 --> 00:44:00,890 is the reason you're never gonna get out of prison. 900 00:44:02,267 --> 00:44:04,185 Senator Tom O'Mara: What type of training, if any, 901 00:44:04,269 --> 00:44:07,230 are the commissioners given in whether or not 902 00:44:07,313 --> 00:44:11,568 "The release would so deprecate the seriousness of the crime 903 00:44:11,609 --> 00:44:13,737 as to undermine respect for the law"? 904 00:44:13,778 --> 00:44:15,572 None, to my knowledge. 905 00:44:15,655 --> 00:44:18,950 How often does that factor come into play? 906 00:44:19,034 --> 00:44:22,037 There's a fair number of cases that come in 907 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,790 where the inmate can be the perfect inmate. 908 00:44:25,874 --> 00:44:27,751 Um, they've done everything they possibly can. 909 00:44:27,834 --> 00:44:30,420 They, they perhaps even demonstrate 910 00:44:30,462 --> 00:44:33,006 a genuinely changed person. 911 00:44:33,089 --> 00:44:36,634 But sometimes there's just enough time has not been done, 912 00:44:36,718 --> 00:44:40,638 because of this component of the serious nature of the offense 913 00:44:40,722 --> 00:44:42,640 and undermining respect from the law. 914 00:44:42,724 --> 00:44:44,684 (solemn music playing) 915 00:44:44,768 --> 00:44:46,186 When you take somebody's life, 916 00:44:46,269 --> 00:44:50,190 you can serve time as a form of punishment for what you did. 917 00:44:50,273 --> 00:44:52,901 But you can never reconstruct that family. 918 00:44:52,984 --> 00:44:55,111 You can never take away the sleepless nights. 919 00:44:55,195 --> 00:44:58,615 And you will have some people, say on the victim's side, 920 00:44:58,698 --> 00:45:01,117 that no matter what price is paid, 921 00:45:01,201 --> 00:45:02,952 it will never be enough. 922 00:45:02,994 --> 00:45:04,329 Shapiro: If it's a heinous offense, 923 00:45:04,412 --> 00:45:08,708 there's an opportunity for victims of those offenses 924 00:45:08,792 --> 00:45:10,877 to come before a parole board commissioner. 925 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:12,921 It's called a victim impact statement. 926 00:45:13,004 --> 00:45:15,131 And so, the parole board is sandwiched 927 00:45:15,215 --> 00:45:17,384 in between really trying to pay attention 928 00:45:17,467 --> 00:45:19,636 to, "Has this person transformed? 929 00:45:19,678 --> 00:45:20,887 Can they go back home?" 930 00:45:20,970 --> 00:45:23,807 There's this little voice of the mother crying, 931 00:45:23,848 --> 00:45:25,100 the father crying. 932 00:45:27,352 --> 00:45:29,521 newscaster: The families fear for their safety 933 00:45:29,604 --> 00:45:31,481 if Campbell was ever released. 934 00:45:31,523 --> 00:45:33,149 I did go talk to the psychiatrist 935 00:45:33,233 --> 00:45:35,819 that did all the interviews with Chad during the trial 936 00:45:35,902 --> 00:45:39,948 and he said, "I can guarantee you he will do it again." 937 00:45:40,490 --> 00:45:42,325 newscaster: New York State Senator Pamela Helming 938 00:45:42,367 --> 00:45:44,411 has joined in the families' efforts, 939 00:45:44,494 --> 00:45:45,745 creating a petition, 940 00:45:45,829 --> 00:45:47,956 making sure Campbell never sees the light of day. 941 00:45:47,997 --> 00:45:49,916 Senator Pamela Helming: Trying to get as many signatures 942 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,334 as we can on the petition 943 00:45:51,418 --> 00:45:54,337 to send a strong, strong message to the parole board, 944 00:45:54,379 --> 00:45:57,048 keep Chad Campbell behind bars where he belongs. 945 00:45:57,841 --> 00:45:59,843 Swartz: In various denials that we have, 946 00:45:59,926 --> 00:46:01,678 the parole board has said things like, 947 00:46:01,761 --> 00:46:03,722 "Well, there's significant community opposition 948 00:46:03,805 --> 00:46:06,307 that people don't want Chad to get out." 949 00:46:06,349 --> 00:46:09,936 And Senator Helming submitted a letter to the board, 950 00:46:10,020 --> 00:46:11,396 which was on her website. 951 00:46:12,147 --> 00:46:15,942 Our position was that it contained factual inaccuracies, 952 00:46:17,318 --> 00:46:19,988 many things that she couldn't possibly opine on, 953 00:46:21,489 --> 00:46:24,117 like whether or not Chad has ever shown remorse. 954 00:46:24,868 --> 00:46:28,955 We decided to send a cease and desist letter to her office... 955 00:46:32,584 --> 00:46:35,879 because her letter would only increase the political pressure 956 00:46:35,962 --> 00:46:38,548 on the commissioners not to release Chad. 957 00:46:49,726 --> 00:46:52,103 Kim Rogers: So, this is the middle school. 958 00:46:55,023 --> 00:46:58,401 It was along this tree line right here 959 00:46:58,818 --> 00:47:03,281 where they found the victims... 960 00:47:04,657 --> 00:47:06,951 Cindy and Curtis. 961 00:47:08,370 --> 00:47:10,830 We were at cheerleading practice. 962 00:47:10,914 --> 00:47:12,499 I was 10. 963 00:47:14,751 --> 00:47:17,962 At the time, all you heard was 964 00:47:18,046 --> 00:47:20,090 what the police were telling you. 965 00:47:20,548 --> 00:47:23,134 What they put in the paper. 966 00:47:25,762 --> 00:47:30,141 I was raised to believe it's an eye for an eye. 967 00:47:30,725 --> 00:47:32,852 That's how I was raised. 968 00:47:32,936 --> 00:47:35,939 And I, I don't agree with it. 969 00:47:36,022 --> 00:47:41,945 Society just doesn't accept that people change. 970 00:47:43,613 --> 00:47:48,034 And my stepdad separated himself kinda completely. 971 00:47:48,326 --> 00:47:51,705 He didn't really go see him. They didn't really talk. 972 00:47:52,247 --> 00:47:54,624 So, society accepted him more 973 00:47:54,708 --> 00:47:56,167 because he's put it off to the side 974 00:47:56,251 --> 00:47:59,087 as if Chad wasn't his son anymore. 975 00:47:59,170 --> 00:48:01,006 But I think a lot of that comes from 976 00:48:01,089 --> 00:48:03,675 because I know Chad was abused. 977 00:48:03,758 --> 00:48:08,304 Mentally, physically, all of those things, from my stepdad. 978 00:48:12,225 --> 00:48:14,269 I've seen that side of him. 979 00:48:17,272 --> 00:48:20,025 It was an abuse where you cycle around of 980 00:48:20,108 --> 00:48:21,651 "I'm just gonna give you a little bit 981 00:48:21,693 --> 00:48:23,403 "of what it should look like 982 00:48:23,486 --> 00:48:25,238 "and then I'm gonna go back to abusing you 983 00:48:25,321 --> 00:48:28,033 so then you keep coming back for more." 984 00:48:33,913 --> 00:48:38,001 Chad was sentenced to two counts of nine to life 985 00:48:38,084 --> 00:48:41,338 and he's done 31 years now. 986 00:48:42,255 --> 00:48:44,424 If the parole board doesn't think 987 00:48:44,883 --> 00:48:46,384 that the victim's statements 988 00:48:46,468 --> 00:48:48,845 haven't already played into that, 989 00:48:48,887 --> 00:48:51,348 I would say that they're dead wrong. 990 00:48:53,183 --> 00:48:55,852 Because I think that they've listened to one side 991 00:48:55,894 --> 00:48:57,604 for a long time, 992 00:48:57,687 --> 00:49:01,066 and I think it's time to start listening to Chad's side. 993 00:49:04,652 --> 00:49:06,613 ♪♪ 994 00:49:06,696 --> 00:49:08,365 (rainfall pattering) 995 00:49:26,216 --> 00:49:27,592 Sabrina: Kira, can you hear me? 996 00:49:27,676 --> 00:49:28,718 Kira (on computer): Sabrina? 997 00:49:29,928 --> 00:49:31,388 Sabrina: He can hear you. 998 00:49:31,471 --> 00:49:33,598 (Todd speaking on phone) 999 00:49:37,394 --> 00:49:40,105 Wait, hold on. Todd is about to open up his results. 1000 00:49:40,188 --> 00:49:42,107 He got his results back today. 1001 00:49:42,941 --> 00:49:45,068 (Todd speaking) 1002 00:49:52,492 --> 00:49:53,618 Todd: Uh... 1003 00:50:38,830 --> 00:50:40,457 We know that. 1004 00:50:45,462 --> 00:50:47,505 (Todd speaking) 1005 00:50:49,799 --> 00:50:51,551 Alright, baby. I love you. 1006 00:50:52,302 --> 00:50:54,137 automated response: The caller has hung up. 1007 00:50:54,179 --> 00:50:55,638 (phone beeps) 1008 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,350 ♪♪ 1009 00:51:03,146 --> 00:51:06,232 Sabrina: They always say, "The nature of the crime." 1010 00:51:08,193 --> 00:51:10,695 The nature of the crime is never gonna change. 1011 00:51:13,490 --> 00:51:15,116 newscaster: They came from towns and cities 1012 00:51:15,158 --> 00:51:17,869 across the country for Eddie Byrne's funeral. 1013 00:51:17,952 --> 00:51:20,580 An estimated 10,000 police officers 1014 00:51:20,663 --> 00:51:22,832 stretching for more than eight blocks. 1015 00:51:22,874 --> 00:51:24,668 ("Taps" playing at funeral) 1016 00:51:24,709 --> 00:51:27,337 Ferguson: I come from a public service family. 1017 00:51:27,379 --> 00:51:31,758 My father was a NYPD homicide detective. 1018 00:51:31,841 --> 00:51:35,595 In my personal opinion, the reason why cop cases 1019 00:51:35,679 --> 00:51:38,890 are decided differently and have different release rates 1020 00:51:39,182 --> 00:51:41,309 is that that person is not just committing an offense 1021 00:51:41,351 --> 00:51:43,603 against the body of that individual, 1022 00:51:44,062 --> 00:51:47,524 a police officer's life is valued more, 1023 00:51:47,565 --> 00:51:50,694 because of who and what they represent. 1024 00:51:50,777 --> 00:51:52,696 So we ask this parole board, 1025 00:51:52,779 --> 00:51:55,156 when these mutts come before them 1026 00:51:55,198 --> 00:51:58,660 and act like they're remorseful and they're not, 1027 00:51:58,743 --> 00:52:00,578 to just say no. 1028 00:52:00,870 --> 00:52:03,707 Shapiro: PBA is the Police Benevolent Association. 1029 00:52:03,790 --> 00:52:07,460 Historically, they had generated boxes of affidavits 1030 00:52:07,544 --> 00:52:09,754 from other police departments around the country 1031 00:52:09,838 --> 00:52:13,133 saying why this person shouldn't be released from prison. 1032 00:52:13,466 --> 00:52:16,594 So, they're a political force. 1033 00:52:17,178 --> 00:52:19,597 I think high-profile cases, in particular, 1034 00:52:19,681 --> 00:52:23,727 are a landmine for some of the commissioners. 1035 00:52:26,438 --> 00:52:30,650 You are likely not to release somebody who has a high-profile 1036 00:52:30,734 --> 00:52:33,278 that will make the "New York Times" or the "Post." 1037 00:52:33,695 --> 00:52:35,822 For a lot of commissioners, this is a job 1038 00:52:35,905 --> 00:52:38,366 and if you're worried about keeping your paycheck, 1039 00:52:38,408 --> 00:52:40,785 you're-- you probably won't let that person out. 1040 00:52:40,869 --> 00:52:43,329 (dramatic music playing) 1041 00:52:45,206 --> 00:52:46,708 (music fades out) 1042 00:52:49,627 --> 00:52:53,340 Todd: How can you convince somebody that you're... 1043 00:52:55,717 --> 00:52:57,469 um... 1044 00:52:57,927 --> 00:52:59,304 I don't wanna say deserving, 1045 00:52:59,387 --> 00:53:02,015 that's like a selfish word to say, 1046 00:53:02,098 --> 00:53:03,892 but I believe that, um, 1047 00:53:03,933 --> 00:53:08,897 I'm credible for a chance of being released into society. 1048 00:53:10,315 --> 00:53:12,108 And what really saved me and brought me to, 1049 00:53:12,192 --> 00:53:14,319 like, a, a, another level of maturity 1050 00:53:14,402 --> 00:53:15,570 was when I, you know, 1051 00:53:15,612 --> 00:53:17,864 proclaimed Mashallah and became Muslim. 1052 00:53:18,823 --> 00:53:20,992 It's about respecting, peacefulness, 1053 00:53:21,076 --> 00:53:23,828 and, and being charitable. 1054 00:53:25,622 --> 00:53:28,291 I see a lot of youngsters in here 1055 00:53:28,333 --> 00:53:30,877 that came in the same path as me. 1056 00:53:32,337 --> 00:53:35,298 You gotta speak to these kids in their language. 1057 00:53:35,340 --> 00:53:37,342 The number one thing is that you gotta 1058 00:53:37,425 --> 00:53:39,260 want to do better and be better. 1059 00:53:39,969 --> 00:53:42,681 I had to come to jail to, to learn them tools. 1060 00:53:43,515 --> 00:53:46,518 My exit plans is really just not about me. 1061 00:53:46,976 --> 00:53:48,311 There's already a job set up 1062 00:53:48,395 --> 00:53:50,480 with Teens Against Crime, the nonprofit. 1063 00:53:50,814 --> 00:53:54,401 We have a letter from the CEO of Teens Against Crime, 1064 00:53:54,693 --> 00:53:56,403 and, you know, they just waiting for me 1065 00:53:56,486 --> 00:53:58,363 to get there just to hit the ground running. 1066 00:53:59,030 --> 00:54:02,951 And try to help the community, try to help these kids. 1067 00:54:08,498 --> 00:54:10,834 Trivedi: They hit him with a 19-month hit. 1068 00:54:12,585 --> 00:54:14,337 So there's a long time before his next hearing. 1069 00:54:14,379 --> 00:54:16,172 There's a long time to prepare for 1070 00:54:16,214 --> 00:54:19,467 how to send him into the board again. 1071 00:54:19,509 --> 00:54:22,345 We have to keep going but it's very hard 1072 00:54:22,429 --> 00:54:24,764 to come back from actually, 1073 00:54:24,848 --> 00:54:27,851 um, emotionally. 1074 00:54:31,938 --> 00:54:34,733 (electric gate whirring) 1075 00:54:36,067 --> 00:54:37,569 Let me at him. 1076 00:54:37,652 --> 00:54:40,447 Hi, hi. I'm so happy to see you. 1077 00:54:40,530 --> 00:54:42,866 Todd: Aah! I love you. 1078 00:54:44,576 --> 00:54:46,161 Listen, are you not sleeping? 1079 00:54:46,244 --> 00:54:48,204 Look at me. Are you not sleeping? 1080 00:54:48,246 --> 00:54:49,247 You look so tired. 1081 00:54:49,330 --> 00:54:51,082 I never sleep. 1082 00:54:51,374 --> 00:54:54,002 I never slept in 30-something years. 1083 00:54:55,837 --> 00:54:57,797 Hey, that's how it is. 1084 00:55:00,258 --> 00:55:03,345 I'll sleep when I get home, I guess, right? 1085 00:55:03,386 --> 00:55:04,888 -Yeah. -Trivedi: Um... 1086 00:55:04,929 --> 00:55:06,973 We, we got a lot-- we got a-- we do have some-- 1087 00:55:07,057 --> 00:55:08,433 you and I have some work to do. 1088 00:55:08,516 --> 00:55:10,185 -Trivedi: I know. -Todd: We gotta get ready. 1089 00:55:10,268 --> 00:55:11,478 Trivedi: Okay. 1090 00:55:13,313 --> 00:55:14,856 Todd, there are pieces of this 1091 00:55:14,898 --> 00:55:18,026 for which you are more than prepared. 1092 00:55:18,109 --> 00:55:21,237 The packet, the release plan. 1093 00:55:21,279 --> 00:55:24,407 Your disciplinary history or lack thereof. 1094 00:55:24,449 --> 00:55:28,286 There is really just one aspect of this 1095 00:55:28,620 --> 00:55:32,290 where you have room to grow. 1096 00:55:32,749 --> 00:55:34,918 These discussions is hard discussions. 1097 00:55:35,001 --> 00:55:38,254 You know, it's a lot that I've hidden away. 1098 00:55:38,338 --> 00:55:42,300 Blocked out. Don't wanna revisit. 1099 00:55:42,384 --> 00:55:46,096 And... But I have to, I'ma have to face it. 1100 00:55:46,429 --> 00:55:49,683 Being locked up at a young age, it, you know... 1101 00:55:50,767 --> 00:55:53,645 it hinders your pattern of thinking sometimes. 1102 00:55:54,688 --> 00:55:57,440 Trivedi: The question is, for me, 1103 00:55:57,482 --> 00:56:01,945 how, how do you take orders from people 1104 00:56:02,278 --> 00:56:04,572 and fulfill them, right? 1105 00:56:04,614 --> 00:56:06,825 When those people are not themselves 1106 00:56:06,908 --> 00:56:09,160 holding a gun to your head, right? 1107 00:56:09,661 --> 00:56:12,622 I think I know enough about you to say 1108 00:56:13,123 --> 00:56:17,836 that the reason you fell in with certain kinds of people 1109 00:56:17,919 --> 00:56:20,797 had everything to do with that trauma, 1110 00:56:20,839 --> 00:56:22,507 that neglect, that abuse, right? 1111 00:56:22,590 --> 00:56:26,344 That responsibility you had as a very young person, right? 1112 00:56:26,636 --> 00:56:28,471 Yeah, of course, like, that, 1113 00:56:28,513 --> 00:56:30,974 that sense of loyalty, like, like... 1114 00:56:31,725 --> 00:56:33,226 like, family, like... you know? 1115 00:56:33,768 --> 00:56:35,770 It's, it's, it's-- Sometimes it's a greater bond 1116 00:56:35,812 --> 00:56:37,689 -than you have with your own family. -Yeah. 1117 00:56:37,981 --> 00:56:41,401 The only way I can perceive that we get you out 1118 00:56:41,484 --> 00:56:42,902 is by giving them 1119 00:56:42,986 --> 00:56:45,739 a full and honest and vulnerable presentation 1120 00:56:45,822 --> 00:56:46,740 of who you are. 1121 00:56:47,032 --> 00:56:51,369 I'm asking you to believe that what you say matters 1122 00:56:51,453 --> 00:56:53,663 because if you don't think your words matter, 1123 00:56:53,747 --> 00:56:55,707 it means that you think they've already made up their mind, 1124 00:56:55,790 --> 00:56:57,959 and you think-- if you think they've already made up their mind, 1125 00:56:58,043 --> 00:56:58,918 then you don't need to go. 1126 00:56:59,002 --> 00:57:00,378 You think they haven't made their mind up? 1127 00:57:00,462 --> 00:57:02,005 Trivedi: You wanna in absentia this thing? 1128 00:57:02,088 --> 00:57:04,341 You, you think they haven't made their mind up for certain instances? 1129 00:57:04,424 --> 00:57:05,592 No, but Todd, listen. I don't know, 1130 00:57:05,675 --> 00:57:07,135 and I will never know, right? 1131 00:57:07,177 --> 00:57:09,012 And I continue to fight. 1132 00:57:09,054 --> 00:57:12,015 We, we, we definitely gonna work on that. I, I want to. 1133 00:57:12,098 --> 00:57:14,225 It's just, you know, it's just these things 1134 00:57:14,309 --> 00:57:15,977 I got to just block out my mind. 1135 00:57:16,061 --> 00:57:17,729 But my point is, I don't, 1136 00:57:17,812 --> 00:57:19,689 I don't actually want you to block it out, 1137 00:57:19,773 --> 00:57:21,316 I want you to talk to me about it, 1138 00:57:21,358 --> 00:57:24,569 -talk to Sabrina about it, talk to an Imam about it. -Right. 1139 00:57:24,652 --> 00:57:27,614 I'm just asking you to sort of not, not look away. 1140 00:57:27,697 --> 00:57:29,532 Okay. 1141 00:57:29,574 --> 00:57:32,327 You, you got that. You got it, you got it. 1142 00:57:32,702 --> 00:57:35,914 It's, it's not gonna be easy but I'm, I'm gonna fight it. 1143 00:57:36,873 --> 00:57:38,625 -Alright. -Um, call me Wednesday? 1144 00:57:38,708 --> 00:57:39,876 Wednesday, alright. 1145 00:57:39,959 --> 00:57:41,670 You might have to set a legal one up. 1146 00:57:41,753 --> 00:57:44,089 Rhiya brings a certain toughness. 1147 00:57:44,422 --> 00:57:46,383 She's gonna be relentless. 1148 00:57:46,716 --> 00:57:50,095 All this work we doing, I-- it's really me I gotta work on. 1149 00:57:50,178 --> 00:57:51,179 Trivedi: Alright, Todd. 1150 00:57:51,221 --> 00:57:52,681 Todd: Just telling my truth. 1151 00:57:53,264 --> 00:57:55,183 Telling the truth of what happened 1152 00:57:55,225 --> 00:57:56,976 and letting them see who I am. 1153 00:57:57,060 --> 00:57:59,562 (tense music playing) 1154 00:58:05,694 --> 00:58:07,278 (music fades out) 1155 00:58:07,362 --> 00:58:09,239 (traffic noise, sirens blaring) 1156 00:58:09,322 --> 00:58:11,574 Swartz: Chad's last denial was several months ago 1157 00:58:11,658 --> 00:58:14,828 and we've started ramping up for his next interview. 1158 00:58:15,286 --> 00:58:17,455 We've tried different strategies 1159 00:58:17,539 --> 00:58:20,291 to prove that Chad is ready to be released. 1160 00:58:20,917 --> 00:58:24,587 I've reached out to a forensic child psychiatrist, 1161 00:58:25,296 --> 00:58:26,965 Dr. Patrick Wiita. 1162 00:58:27,966 --> 00:58:29,759 Thank you for taking the time to meet. 1163 00:58:29,801 --> 00:58:32,262 I thought maybe we could walk through 1164 00:58:32,303 --> 00:58:34,639 some of the, uh, findings. 1165 00:58:34,889 --> 00:58:38,893 This question, "Are young people, kids, teenagers, 1166 00:58:38,977 --> 00:58:41,312 (over video call) "when they commit crimes, 1167 00:58:41,980 --> 00:58:46,317 is it different, inherently, than when adults commit crimes?" 1168 00:58:46,401 --> 00:58:47,777 And every single time 1169 00:58:47,861 --> 00:58:49,863 it's gone to the Supreme Court, 1170 00:58:49,946 --> 00:58:52,115 uh, the answer's been pretty emphatic, 1171 00:58:52,157 --> 00:58:53,241 "Yes, they are different." 1172 00:58:53,533 --> 00:58:54,951 Starting in 2005, 1173 00:58:55,035 --> 00:58:58,038 the science behind brain development 1174 00:58:58,121 --> 00:59:03,126 has advanced to a point where functional brain scans 1175 00:59:03,168 --> 00:59:04,711 can compare, you know, 1176 00:59:04,794 --> 00:59:06,338 an adolescent brain to an adult brain. 1177 00:59:06,963 --> 00:59:10,133 Different parts of the brain develop at different rates. 1178 00:59:10,175 --> 00:59:13,553 So their functional growth in the parts of the brain 1179 00:59:13,636 --> 00:59:15,764 that are responsible for emotions 1180 00:59:15,847 --> 00:59:18,141 is really, very active in adolescence 1181 00:59:18,224 --> 00:59:20,393 and, and the part of the brain that's responsible 1182 00:59:20,477 --> 00:59:24,856 for making decisions is lagging behind. 1183 00:59:25,190 --> 00:59:30,278 The work I did here was doing a kind of textbook 1184 00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:34,074 risk assessment for Mr. Campbell 1185 00:59:35,867 --> 00:59:37,952 and my assessment was really consistent 1186 00:59:37,994 --> 00:59:40,038 with the department of corrections, 1187 00:59:40,121 --> 00:59:42,624 their own risk assessment, they've all been low risk. 1188 00:59:42,707 --> 00:59:44,125 In the case of Mr. Campbell, 1189 00:59:44,167 --> 00:59:46,002 there's a question that keeps coming up, 1190 00:59:46,461 --> 00:59:47,754 "Why did this happen?" 1191 00:59:47,837 --> 00:59:49,130 And, and, you know, the best way 1192 00:59:49,214 --> 00:59:50,715 that he could articulate it, right, 1193 00:59:50,799 --> 00:59:52,842 is that he's not super sure, 1194 00:59:52,884 --> 00:59:55,345 he was really angry and really upset 1195 00:59:55,428 --> 00:59:56,888 and he had this thought in his head 1196 00:59:56,971 --> 00:59:58,390 that he wanted to hurt someone 1197 00:59:58,473 --> 01:00:01,976 and it's a matter of all of these factors coming together 1198 01:00:02,060 --> 01:00:04,229 at, at a very particular point 1199 01:00:04,604 --> 01:00:09,693 and then not having the equipment to not act. 1200 01:00:09,734 --> 01:00:13,029 That's the difference between a 14-year-old 1201 01:00:13,113 --> 01:00:15,615 who does something like this and a 32-year-old 1202 01:00:15,699 --> 01:00:17,033 who does something like this. 1203 01:00:17,117 --> 01:00:18,868 Swartz (over video call): Well, I do think your report 1204 01:00:18,952 --> 01:00:20,203 is gonna be really helpful. 1205 01:00:20,245 --> 01:00:23,081 Crossing our fingers that the commissioners will read 1206 01:00:23,164 --> 01:00:24,749 something that we put in front of 'em. 1207 01:00:25,125 --> 01:00:26,626 Thanks for taking the time to talk. 1208 01:00:26,710 --> 01:00:28,253 Sure, alright, yeah. Thanks. 1209 01:00:28,962 --> 01:00:31,172 ♪♪ 1210 01:00:32,924 --> 01:00:34,801 Swartz: Chad's next parole interview 1211 01:00:34,884 --> 01:00:37,345 is scheduled for a little over a month from now. 1212 01:00:37,387 --> 01:00:39,848 We're gonna have him submit Dr. Wiita's report 1213 01:00:40,265 --> 01:00:44,811 which says that he doesn't pose any risk or danger to anyone. 1214 01:00:45,395 --> 01:00:47,939 The commissioners spend a lot of their time 1215 01:00:48,023 --> 01:00:50,400 focusing on the details of the crime. 1216 01:00:50,817 --> 01:00:54,779 And they've said that Chad has failed to show remorse. 1217 01:00:55,989 --> 01:00:58,408 So we practice his ability to tell the story, 1218 01:00:58,491 --> 01:01:01,995 to convey everything that he's actually feeling about what he did 1219 01:01:02,078 --> 01:01:05,290 and not just keeping everything behind a mask. 1220 01:01:07,625 --> 01:01:09,336 Oh, my God. You're wasting away. 1221 01:01:09,419 --> 01:01:10,587 -How are you? -Nice to see you. 1222 01:01:10,628 --> 01:01:11,963 -Nice to see you. -Hey, how's it goin'? 1223 01:01:12,047 --> 01:01:13,506 -Lookin' good. -Oh, thanks, yeah. 1224 01:01:13,590 --> 01:01:15,300 -You look good. -Baby bump. Come sit. 1225 01:01:15,759 --> 01:01:19,512 Okay, let's talk about this next upcoming interview 1226 01:01:19,596 --> 01:01:21,598 and how to answer some of these really tricky questions. 1227 01:01:21,681 --> 01:01:22,640 Okay. 1228 01:01:22,724 --> 01:01:24,100 So do you wanna just practice 1229 01:01:24,184 --> 01:01:25,143 what I think is probably 1230 01:01:25,226 --> 01:01:26,603 one of the hardest questions of the day, 1231 01:01:26,686 --> 01:01:27,937 -which is just like-- -Ask away. 1232 01:01:28,021 --> 01:01:29,272 I already know what's coming. Go ahead. 1233 01:01:29,356 --> 01:01:34,069 (chuckles) Just-- Okay, so, what happened that day? 1234 01:01:34,778 --> 01:01:38,531 Um, August 1st, 1990, um, 1235 01:01:39,157 --> 01:01:40,950 um, my mother was in the hospital that day. 1236 01:01:42,243 --> 01:01:44,746 I was working in our high school. 1237 01:01:44,996 --> 01:01:46,164 I took off of work, 1238 01:01:46,247 --> 01:01:48,249 even though I was expressly forbidden to 1239 01:01:48,333 --> 01:01:50,627 because I wanted to see my mother in the hospital. 1240 01:01:51,169 --> 01:01:52,754 I went into the room, you know, 1241 01:01:52,796 --> 01:01:54,673 "Hi, Mom. How you doing? How you feeling?" 1242 01:01:54,756 --> 01:01:56,132 And everything just went downhill from there. 1243 01:01:56,216 --> 01:01:58,551 I mean, the first thing she said to me was, 1244 01:01:58,927 --> 01:02:01,346 -"Why are you here?" -Swartz: Hmm. 1245 01:02:01,429 --> 01:02:05,934 Um, for me, that was a serious slap in the face. 1246 01:02:06,643 --> 01:02:07,894 I'm not hearing, "Why are you here?" 1247 01:02:07,977 --> 01:02:09,938 I'm hearing, "I don't want you." 1248 01:02:10,689 --> 01:02:11,981 Looking back on it now, 1249 01:02:12,065 --> 01:02:13,817 it's not that she didn't want me there, 1250 01:02:13,900 --> 01:02:16,319 it's she was in a lot of pain. 1251 01:02:16,403 --> 01:02:17,278 But I didn't see it like that, 1252 01:02:17,362 --> 01:02:19,739 so, you know, that kinda set me off. 1253 01:02:20,865 --> 01:02:23,410 Now I'm angry, I'm thinking to myself, 1254 01:02:23,493 --> 01:02:24,828 "My own mother doesn't like me. 1255 01:02:24,911 --> 01:02:26,830 "The person who gave birth to me doesn't love me. 1256 01:02:26,913 --> 01:02:29,207 Nobody wants me." 1257 01:02:31,710 --> 01:02:34,295 I came home, I'm just stewing, 1258 01:02:34,921 --> 01:02:37,048 and I'm like, "I'm, I'm gonna hurt somebody." 1259 01:02:37,882 --> 01:02:39,217 I didn't care. 1260 01:02:39,300 --> 01:02:42,303 I, I literally was like, "My life is over." 1261 01:02:42,345 --> 01:02:44,681 Why did you say or feel, 1262 01:02:44,764 --> 01:02:46,891 "I'm gonna hurt somebody"? 1263 01:02:46,975 --> 01:02:49,602 For me, if I can make somebody-- 1264 01:02:49,686 --> 01:02:51,021 That's what I've come to realize now. 1265 01:02:51,062 --> 01:02:53,732 If-if I made somebody feel worse than I was feeling, 1266 01:02:54,232 --> 01:02:56,192 I thought it made me felt better, 1267 01:02:56,651 --> 01:02:57,861 but it didn't. 1268 01:02:59,112 --> 01:03:00,697 I called Cindy up, you know, 1269 01:03:00,739 --> 01:03:02,991 I asked her, "What are you doing?" She said, "Nothin'." 1270 01:03:03,074 --> 01:03:04,868 I said, "Alright. meet me at the high school." 1271 01:03:04,951 --> 01:03:07,537 I grabbed my fishing knife and went there. 1272 01:03:08,329 --> 01:03:11,416 Next thing I know she's walking across the ball field, 1273 01:03:11,666 --> 01:03:13,209 pushing a stroller. 1274 01:03:13,752 --> 01:03:15,712 I'm like, "What are you doing? 1275 01:03:15,754 --> 01:03:17,339 I thought you said you were doing nothin'." 1276 01:03:17,380 --> 01:03:19,716 She was like, "Oh, I'm just babysitting." 1277 01:03:19,799 --> 01:03:21,051 I said, "That's not doing nothing." 1278 01:03:21,134 --> 01:03:23,720 And that just set me off, like, she lied to me, 1279 01:03:23,803 --> 01:03:25,347 which, you know, obviously, 1280 01:03:25,388 --> 01:03:28,475 look, that I lied to her to get her to come and hurt somebody. 1281 01:03:28,558 --> 01:03:29,893 Um... 1282 01:03:30,894 --> 01:03:32,562 from there it just... 1283 01:03:32,645 --> 01:03:34,105 I grabbed her. It progressed. 1284 01:03:34,189 --> 01:03:38,943 Um, I ended up, uh, stabbing her multiple times. 1285 01:03:39,277 --> 01:03:42,906 And that little boy was crying and... 1286 01:03:46,701 --> 01:03:47,952 I, uh... 1287 01:03:48,870 --> 01:03:50,538 I killed two children. 1288 01:03:51,539 --> 01:03:52,999 Swartz: As a child. 1289 01:03:53,291 --> 01:03:54,334 Yeah. 1290 01:03:54,918 --> 01:03:56,252 Because of my anger, because I wasn't able 1291 01:03:56,336 --> 01:03:58,463 to understand what I was feeling and what I was doing. 1292 01:03:59,422 --> 01:04:02,008 I, I really didn't grasp it. 1293 01:04:03,510 --> 01:04:06,304 And that rage... 1294 01:04:08,431 --> 01:04:09,766 it's like I saw red, 1295 01:04:09,849 --> 01:04:11,017 is the best I can explain it. 1296 01:04:11,101 --> 01:04:13,019 -Swartz: Mm-hmm. -And... 1297 01:04:13,103 --> 01:04:16,564 there was no rational thought or understanding 1298 01:04:16,606 --> 01:04:20,151 or anything getting into my head. 1299 01:04:20,443 --> 01:04:21,820 I'm looking back and just sitting here, 1300 01:04:21,903 --> 01:04:23,154 I'm like this... 1301 01:04:23,405 --> 01:04:25,281 Excuse me but, "This shit isn't rational. 1302 01:04:25,323 --> 01:04:27,450 -"This is, this is crazy." -Swartz: Yeah. Yeah. 1303 01:04:27,492 --> 01:04:30,912 "It doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up." 1304 01:04:34,332 --> 01:04:35,709 I, I don't know how to express it 1305 01:04:35,792 --> 01:04:37,085 -anymore than I'm sorry. -Swartz: Right. 1306 01:04:37,168 --> 01:04:39,129 I, I don't-- I mean, I-- 1307 01:04:39,212 --> 01:04:41,965 You've lived your life for the last 32 years 1308 01:04:42,007 --> 01:04:46,177 in a way that expresses remorse and change. 1309 01:04:46,553 --> 01:04:49,055 There is nothing that can make up for my actions 1310 01:04:49,139 --> 01:04:51,099 but that's not stopping me from chasing it. 1311 01:04:51,182 --> 01:04:53,101 Maybe this time they'll see it. 1312 01:04:54,394 --> 01:04:57,731 I'll be interested to see what happens with Wiita's report, 1313 01:04:57,814 --> 01:04:59,524 since it's gonna be in front of the board. 1314 01:05:00,025 --> 01:05:01,985 -November will tell, right? -Yeah. 1315 01:05:02,068 --> 01:05:03,737 Forty-five, forty-seven days or something? 1316 01:05:03,820 --> 01:05:04,821 Okay. Alright. 1317 01:05:04,904 --> 01:05:05,864 -Alright. -Alright. 1318 01:05:05,947 --> 01:05:06,948 You have a good, safe trip. 1319 01:05:06,990 --> 01:05:08,241 Swartz: Yeah. 1320 01:05:10,702 --> 01:05:12,871 ♪♪ 1321 01:05:12,954 --> 01:05:14,998 New York has taken the position 1322 01:05:15,081 --> 01:05:18,460 that there is no problem with the juvenile sentences 1323 01:05:18,668 --> 01:05:23,381 because guys like Chad who were convicted at 13, 14, 15, 1324 01:05:23,465 --> 01:05:27,010 are able to go before the board of parole. 1325 01:05:27,052 --> 01:05:30,013 I would argue that the board of parole 1326 01:05:30,055 --> 01:05:32,849 is allowed to continue to deny him 1327 01:05:32,891 --> 01:05:34,684 parole release in perpetuity, 1328 01:05:34,768 --> 01:05:37,062 then how is that not a life sentence? 1329 01:05:38,271 --> 01:05:40,732 I've heard that Connecticut is, um, 1330 01:05:40,815 --> 01:05:42,108 trying out some new reforms 1331 01:05:42,192 --> 01:05:43,610 when it comes to juvenile justice. 1332 01:05:44,527 --> 01:05:46,196 Juvenile offenders in Connecticut 1333 01:05:46,237 --> 01:05:48,031 can be eligible for a special hearing 1334 01:05:48,073 --> 01:05:51,076 for people who committed a crime before they turned 18. 1335 01:05:51,493 --> 01:05:54,871 newscaster: Connecticut today passed Public Act 15-84, 1336 01:05:54,954 --> 01:05:56,623 which grants new parole eligibility 1337 01:05:56,706 --> 01:06:00,251 for juvenile offenders serving long sentences. 1338 01:06:03,213 --> 01:06:07,717 speaker: Good morning. This is the session of the Board of Pardons and Paroles. 1339 01:06:07,759 --> 01:06:09,260 The purpose of your appearance today 1340 01:06:09,344 --> 01:06:11,930 is to tell the board why you are seeking release. 1341 01:06:12,013 --> 01:06:14,140 Deborah Smith-Palmieri: The Public Act 15-84 1342 01:06:14,224 --> 01:06:16,851 is a juvenile reconsideration hearing 1343 01:06:16,935 --> 01:06:18,978 where an individual is 18 and under, 1344 01:06:19,062 --> 01:06:21,773 and they're sentenced to more than 10 years. 1345 01:06:22,399 --> 01:06:25,527 Carlos Rebollo was only 15 years old 1346 01:06:25,568 --> 01:06:29,572 when he was convicted of arson in the first degree 1347 01:06:29,656 --> 01:06:31,241 and attempt to commit murder. 1348 01:06:31,282 --> 01:06:33,952 He was sentenced to 45 years. 1349 01:06:34,327 --> 01:06:36,955 He's now in his late 30s. 1350 01:06:37,288 --> 01:06:40,083 He is first having a commutation hearing. 1351 01:06:40,166 --> 01:06:45,672 If granted, it would move his 15-84 date earlier. 1352 01:06:47,382 --> 01:06:48,925 I want to thank the board for granting me 1353 01:06:48,967 --> 01:06:51,636 the opportunity to apologize for my actions. 1354 01:06:53,388 --> 01:06:56,766 I not only violated the life and person of Miss Grace Glen 1355 01:06:57,934 --> 01:06:59,644 but I invaded her home. 1356 01:07:02,313 --> 01:07:05,608 I left her to live with a tragedy that was senseless. 1357 01:07:06,818 --> 01:07:08,445 commissioner: I can't help but keep going back 1358 01:07:08,486 --> 01:07:10,697 to the fact that you were 15, 1359 01:07:11,364 --> 01:07:14,993 but now as I look at your disciplinary reports, 1360 01:07:15,326 --> 01:07:20,832 fights, assaults, contraband, disobeying orders, language. 1361 01:07:21,750 --> 01:07:25,879 All of a sudden, they pretty much stop at age 19. 1362 01:07:25,962 --> 01:07:27,172 Carlos Rebollo: Mm-hmm. 1363 01:07:27,839 --> 01:07:29,049 commissioner: So where do you think 1364 01:07:29,132 --> 01:07:32,761 that transition started to take hold of you? 1365 01:07:33,345 --> 01:07:35,930 When I entered prison it was a very chaotic environment 1366 01:07:36,014 --> 01:07:37,432 and I had the mentality of, 1367 01:07:37,515 --> 01:07:39,768 I just didn't care about anything. 1368 01:07:40,643 --> 01:07:44,356 As I started to mature, I began to understand 1369 01:07:44,439 --> 01:07:48,318 how, you know, monstrous in a sense-- 1370 01:07:48,401 --> 01:07:51,279 commissioner: Yeah, that, that's probably the right word. 1371 01:07:52,155 --> 01:07:54,616 Definitely have turned things around. 1372 01:07:57,243 --> 01:07:58,828 Smith-Palmieri: When we had Carlos before the board 1373 01:07:58,912 --> 01:08:02,999 for a commutation hearing, we reduced his prison sentence 1374 01:08:03,083 --> 01:08:05,251 to a point where he would then be eligible 1375 01:08:05,335 --> 01:08:07,379 for this 15-84 hearing. 1376 01:08:08,713 --> 01:08:13,093 These cases are taking a look at that's where they were then, 1377 01:08:13,176 --> 01:08:15,970 and fast forward, in this particular case, 1378 01:08:16,011 --> 01:08:17,514 twenty-two years later, 1379 01:08:17,596 --> 01:08:19,808 you know, he's not that same person. 1380 01:08:19,849 --> 01:08:22,102 -commissioner 2: Congratulations, Carlos. -Okay, thank you. 1381 01:08:22,185 --> 01:08:23,228 Thank you guys very much. 1382 01:08:23,310 --> 01:08:26,106 The 15-84 juvenile parole hearings 1383 01:08:26,189 --> 01:08:28,566 are completely different from the adults' 1384 01:08:28,649 --> 01:08:30,276 in that they're considering that the brain 1385 01:08:30,359 --> 01:08:33,863 is not fully developed until you're 25 years old, 1386 01:08:33,904 --> 01:08:35,156 that you're unable, uh, 1387 01:08:35,198 --> 01:08:38,033 to appreciate the consequences of your actions, 1388 01:08:38,076 --> 01:08:40,120 that children are highly impulsive 1389 01:08:40,203 --> 01:08:43,163 and easily influenced to, um, peer pressure. 1390 01:08:43,247 --> 01:08:47,167 And all of these factors that were actually considered 1391 01:08:47,419 --> 01:08:50,087 aggravating factors are now mitigating. 1392 01:08:50,171 --> 01:08:52,424 ♪♪ 1393 01:08:56,678 --> 01:09:01,599 So, this is a picture with me and my son 1394 01:09:02,934 --> 01:09:04,144 when I was 15 years old. 1395 01:09:04,227 --> 01:09:06,438 He must have been maybe three months old 1396 01:09:07,104 --> 01:09:10,274 and I wanted to be in his life. 1397 01:09:12,819 --> 01:09:16,031 I'm most excited and nervous about just hugging my son. 1398 01:09:16,740 --> 01:09:21,578 I just... I just wanna know what that's like. That's it. 1399 01:09:24,581 --> 01:09:26,707 I have a hearing in two months 1400 01:09:27,334 --> 01:09:31,171 as my first parole hearing under 15-84, 1401 01:09:31,880 --> 01:09:33,798 and I'm preparing for it. 1402 01:09:42,765 --> 01:09:46,102 Trivedi: Todd was transferred facilities. 1403 01:09:46,435 --> 01:09:48,604 You don't get any notice. 1404 01:09:48,688 --> 01:09:51,191 The Department of Corrections wants to, 1405 01:09:51,774 --> 01:09:53,109 quote-unquote, "shake things up" 1406 01:09:53,151 --> 01:09:55,320 so that people don't get too familiar. 1407 01:09:55,403 --> 01:09:58,990 You know, Elmira was Todd's home for the last seven, eight years 1408 01:09:59,491 --> 01:10:02,577 and he was given a few hours' notice 1409 01:10:02,619 --> 01:10:06,206 that he was leaving that place never to return. 1410 01:10:07,332 --> 01:10:12,003 We're about 60 days away from his next appearance. 1411 01:10:12,087 --> 01:10:14,506 Depending on how Todd's feeling, 1412 01:10:14,589 --> 01:10:17,509 I'll start to ramp up my prep with him 1413 01:10:17,842 --> 01:10:21,471 to get him in the best possible mindset. 1414 01:10:23,306 --> 01:10:24,808 Todd: I sat here in my cell. 1415 01:10:24,849 --> 01:10:28,186 You know, I'm in there by myself and reading 1416 01:10:28,269 --> 01:10:30,480 and praying and contemplating. 1417 01:10:30,563 --> 01:10:32,148 So that's the thing where I was telling you 1418 01:10:32,190 --> 01:10:33,608 I was really thinking about this, 1419 01:10:33,650 --> 01:10:36,653 what you said, about the circumstances... 1420 01:10:37,862 --> 01:10:39,572 and conveying that to them 1421 01:10:39,656 --> 01:10:42,617 without it sounding like an excuse. 1422 01:10:42,659 --> 01:10:45,704 So, so a lot of times it sounds like an excuse to me. 1423 01:10:45,787 --> 01:10:48,039 It's just the, the conveyance of things. 1424 01:10:48,331 --> 01:10:50,166 People think that you was in it 1425 01:10:50,208 --> 01:10:53,003 for the sparkly things and the lavish things. 1426 01:10:53,044 --> 01:10:54,838 -Mm-hmm. -And that's not, you know... 1427 01:10:54,921 --> 01:10:56,881 um, you, you, helping somebody 1428 01:10:56,965 --> 01:10:58,174 and they refinance their house 1429 01:10:58,216 --> 01:10:59,426 and you paying the mortgage, you know? 1430 01:10:59,509 --> 01:11:01,052 I think it's a really important distinction 1431 01:11:01,136 --> 01:11:03,513 between, "I was driving fancy cars," 1432 01:11:03,555 --> 01:11:05,807 and, "I was paying my grandmother's mortgage." 1433 01:11:05,849 --> 01:11:07,600 You know, and, "I was feeding my siblings." 1434 01:11:07,684 --> 01:11:09,060 -Right. -Right? 1435 01:11:09,144 --> 01:11:10,562 The hardest thing is to be able to say 1436 01:11:10,645 --> 01:11:13,106 to the commissioners, I think, like, look, 1437 01:11:13,690 --> 01:11:17,360 I'm telling you this because it explains 1438 01:11:17,402 --> 01:11:20,613 how I came to be a person 1439 01:11:20,697 --> 01:11:22,824 who took orders from other people. 1440 01:11:22,866 --> 01:11:24,951 -Right. Right. -Right? 1441 01:11:25,577 --> 01:11:28,705 But then, you gotta, you gotta walk yourself all the way up 1442 01:11:28,747 --> 01:11:31,207 to the thing itself. 1443 01:11:31,291 --> 01:11:33,209 -Which is Eddie Byrne. -Right. 1444 01:11:33,251 --> 01:11:35,211 This is all about explaining like how we-- 1445 01:11:35,253 --> 01:11:36,421 That is the toughest part right there. 1446 01:11:36,504 --> 01:11:38,173 The, the connection. 1447 01:11:38,715 --> 01:11:40,592 Will they really believe that? 1448 01:11:41,384 --> 01:11:43,595 Sometimes it's hard to explain a bad thing, 1449 01:11:43,678 --> 01:11:46,222 like, "Oh, man, I really participated in this?" 1450 01:11:46,264 --> 01:11:48,808 I really... you know, it ain't just today. 1451 01:11:49,517 --> 01:11:51,061 It's every day I gotta deal with this. 1452 01:11:51,102 --> 01:11:52,187 It's a part of my life. 1453 01:11:52,687 --> 01:11:54,898 That guilty part is still there. 1454 01:11:55,398 --> 01:11:58,360 And it's not an easy thing to explain. 1455 01:11:58,401 --> 01:12:03,823 It's... shameful, you know? 1456 01:12:03,907 --> 01:12:06,034 But I, I gotta do it. 1457 01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:11,289 Trivedi: This place makes it feel like you are what you did, right? 1458 01:12:11,623 --> 01:12:13,208 And for parole commissioners, 1459 01:12:13,291 --> 01:12:16,294 I think it's really helpful to separate those two things. 1460 01:12:16,753 --> 01:12:19,756 To say, like, I know who I am, right, 1461 01:12:19,798 --> 01:12:23,259 and in this one room, I need to focus on what I did. 1462 01:12:23,301 --> 01:12:24,803 But those are not the same thing. 1463 01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:27,597 I know I'm being tough on you, 1464 01:12:27,681 --> 01:12:31,935 but I need you to walk in there believing in your own capacity 1465 01:12:32,018 --> 01:12:35,814 to really, like, open your heart and show them who you are. 1466 01:12:36,147 --> 01:12:37,565 And part of who you are is a person 1467 01:12:37,607 --> 01:12:40,568 who has been through all of this and who did these things. 1468 01:12:51,079 --> 01:12:52,580 I got you. 1469 01:12:54,791 --> 01:12:57,460 ♪♪ 1470 01:13:02,799 --> 01:13:04,342 Chad: This will be my tenth parole board, 1471 01:13:04,676 --> 01:13:06,386 and what is my mindset? 1472 01:13:07,053 --> 01:13:09,556 I'm gonna be in prison for another ten years. 1473 01:13:10,557 --> 01:13:12,392 That's just a way to protect myself. 1474 01:13:12,892 --> 01:13:14,769 At the same time, 1475 01:13:14,811 --> 01:13:17,480 I'm very hopeful about this one. 1476 01:13:25,321 --> 01:13:26,489 commissioner: I know you've been seen 1477 01:13:26,531 --> 01:13:28,408 a number of times by the board. 1478 01:13:28,491 --> 01:13:29,951 Chad: Yes, ma'am. 1479 01:13:30,243 --> 01:13:32,871 commissioner: How long have you been incarcerated now? 1480 01:13:32,954 --> 01:13:35,457 Chad: Thirty-two years and three months. 1481 01:13:36,416 --> 01:13:37,500 commissioner: I was really impressed 1482 01:13:37,584 --> 01:13:39,878 by the contents of your parole packet. 1483 01:13:39,961 --> 01:13:41,338 I can tell that you really spent 1484 01:13:41,421 --> 01:13:42,756 your term of incarceration 1485 01:13:42,839 --> 01:13:44,924 thinking about everything that happened. 1486 01:13:45,383 --> 01:13:47,302 Chad: I destroyed two families. 1487 01:13:47,344 --> 01:13:48,845 I took everything from them. 1488 01:13:48,887 --> 01:13:50,805 I don't know if there's any words 1489 01:13:50,889 --> 01:13:52,807 that I could possibly say to them 1490 01:13:52,891 --> 01:13:55,602 that would alleviate all their hurt and pain 1491 01:13:55,685 --> 01:13:57,854 and anguish I put them through. 1492 01:13:58,688 --> 01:14:01,566 Just how truly sorry I am. 1493 01:14:02,609 --> 01:14:03,777 commissioner: Do you think you deserve 1494 01:14:03,860 --> 01:14:05,820 to be released, Mr. Campbell? 1495 01:14:06,071 --> 01:14:08,615 Chad: I think I've earned consideration. 1496 01:14:09,699 --> 01:14:11,659 commissioner: I met you years ago, 1497 01:14:11,701 --> 01:14:13,828 there's some personal growth here. 1498 01:14:17,040 --> 01:14:19,084 (birds chirping) 1499 01:14:20,377 --> 01:14:21,544 -Chad (on phone): Hello. -Swartz: Hey. 1500 01:14:21,628 --> 01:14:23,296 -Chad: Hey, how you doin'? -Swartz: Good. 1501 01:14:23,963 --> 01:14:25,924 We don't have a decision yet, do we? 1502 01:14:26,007 --> 01:14:28,843 Chad: No, I was hoping we did, we do not have a decision yet. 1503 01:14:28,885 --> 01:14:30,011 Okay. 1504 01:14:30,095 --> 01:14:33,556 Chad: But the interview went very well. 1505 01:14:33,598 --> 01:14:37,602 It was by far the most I've ever been comfortable in a hearing. 1506 01:14:37,686 --> 01:14:39,354 She highlighted a lot of things, 1507 01:14:39,396 --> 01:14:40,855 my personal statement, 1508 01:14:40,897 --> 01:14:42,565 things I've done educationally. 1509 01:14:42,607 --> 01:14:44,234 Swartz: What about Wiita's report? 1510 01:14:44,317 --> 01:14:45,402 Chad: Yeah, she mentioned that, 1511 01:14:45,443 --> 01:14:46,903 we didn't talk anything about it though. 1512 01:14:46,945 --> 01:14:48,238 That's interesting. 1513 01:14:48,321 --> 01:14:50,281 Chad: Well, they asked me, you know, "What were you thinking, 1514 01:14:50,365 --> 01:14:51,533 what were you feeling," kinda things 1515 01:14:51,616 --> 01:14:53,159 and I was actually comfortable enough 1516 01:14:53,243 --> 01:14:54,661 where I got real choked up 1517 01:14:55,078 --> 01:14:57,664 and I couldn't ask for a better hearing. 1518 01:14:57,747 --> 01:15:00,417 The more I think about it, I really have a shot. 1519 01:15:00,500 --> 01:15:02,419 I'm definitely hoping, but I'm thinking 1520 01:15:02,502 --> 01:15:04,546 that this might be the one. 1521 01:15:05,255 --> 01:15:07,632 ♪♪ 1522 01:15:09,718 --> 01:15:11,720 As far as having second chances, 1523 01:15:11,761 --> 01:15:15,056 uh, you know, I'm-- I, you know, I support that. 1524 01:15:15,140 --> 01:15:17,726 I mean, are we going to incarcerate a young person 1525 01:15:17,767 --> 01:15:20,228 that commits a brutal crime for as long as they live? 1526 01:15:20,270 --> 01:15:21,479 I don't know that that's fair, 1527 01:15:21,563 --> 01:15:23,440 the Supreme Court says it's not. 1528 01:15:23,773 --> 01:15:26,484 In New York, we put that in the hands of the parole board. 1529 01:15:26,568 --> 01:15:29,237 All I can say about it is I'm glad I'm not making those decisions 1530 01:15:29,279 --> 01:15:32,741 'cause... I-I don't know, they have a tough job. 1531 01:15:34,159 --> 01:15:36,619 (camera shutters clicking) 1532 01:15:36,703 --> 01:15:38,121 Ferguson: One of the things that's often said 1533 01:15:38,163 --> 01:15:41,791 is that a person can change everything about themselves 1534 01:15:41,833 --> 01:15:44,085 but they can't change the crime that they did. 1535 01:15:45,295 --> 01:15:49,674 So when you do do it, you can't resurrect someone. 1536 01:15:50,425 --> 01:15:52,260 You've caused permanent harm. 1537 01:15:54,012 --> 01:15:55,597 Shapiro: The line in the sand is that 1538 01:15:55,638 --> 01:15:57,557 if you've done something horrible in your life, 1539 01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:00,727 you're a horrible person and we can't let you out. 1540 01:16:01,311 --> 01:16:03,438 I think the rest of us believe 1541 01:16:03,480 --> 01:16:04,773 that we're all more than the worst things 1542 01:16:04,856 --> 01:16:06,274 we've ever done in our life. 1543 01:16:07,025 --> 01:16:08,610 Gallivan: The members of the border of parole, 1544 01:16:08,651 --> 01:16:10,904 commissioners, really do have a lot of power 1545 01:16:10,987 --> 01:16:14,157 when it comes to the individual's liberty. 1546 01:16:14,199 --> 01:16:17,702 And I think the commissioners who do their job properly, 1547 01:16:18,203 --> 01:16:19,996 do have that weight on their shoulders. 1548 01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,123 ♪♪ 1549 01:16:26,378 --> 01:16:28,421 Smith-Palmieri (on monitor): Good morning, Mr. Rebollo. 1550 01:16:28,505 --> 01:16:29,464 Carlos: Good morning. 1551 01:16:29,506 --> 01:16:30,882 Smith-Palmieri: This 15-84 hearing 1552 01:16:30,965 --> 01:16:32,634 is being conducted in consideration 1553 01:16:32,676 --> 01:16:35,303 of the parole application for Carlos Rebollo, 1554 01:16:35,553 --> 01:16:38,431 who is serving 39 years for arson first, 1555 01:16:38,515 --> 01:16:40,308 and attempt to commit murder. 1556 01:16:40,350 --> 01:16:41,726 Good morning Mr. Rebollo. 1557 01:16:41,810 --> 01:16:44,354 You've been incarcerated for 24 years. 1558 01:16:44,396 --> 01:16:48,441 Can you talk a little bit about when you entered prison, 1559 01:16:48,525 --> 01:16:50,360 some of the obstacles that you had 1560 01:16:50,443 --> 01:16:52,821 and how you overcame them? 1561 01:16:52,904 --> 01:16:55,323 I remember that in my mentality, 1562 01:16:55,365 --> 01:16:56,741 I'm thinking that my life was over 1563 01:16:56,825 --> 01:16:59,661 and there was no reason to try to be better at all. 1564 01:16:59,744 --> 01:17:02,539 I ran into many inmates who were serving life sentences 1565 01:17:02,622 --> 01:17:04,708 and they were walking around smiling. 1566 01:17:04,916 --> 01:17:06,167 And I asked one of them, you know, 1567 01:17:06,251 --> 01:17:09,170 "How could you be so happy under such circumstances? 1568 01:17:09,254 --> 01:17:10,755 You're never going home." 1569 01:17:10,839 --> 01:17:14,175 And his response to me was, "Life doesn't end here. 1570 01:17:14,467 --> 01:17:15,510 "You know, you still have a choice 1571 01:17:15,593 --> 01:17:17,387 in how you wanna live your life." 1572 01:17:17,429 --> 01:17:18,930 And that had a great impact on me. 1573 01:17:19,472 --> 01:17:21,558 (on monitor) And that reflection actually allowed me 1574 01:17:21,599 --> 01:17:23,685 to start the process that has led me 1575 01:17:23,727 --> 01:17:26,479 to take more and more responsibility for my life. 1576 01:17:26,646 --> 01:17:29,524 Okay. I think you hit the nail on the head. 1577 01:17:29,566 --> 01:17:31,109 (over monitor) As a Board, as a community, 1578 01:17:31,192 --> 01:17:34,738 we are hopeful that remorse is shown 1579 01:17:34,821 --> 01:17:36,531 through rehabilitation, 1580 01:17:36,573 --> 01:17:38,575 somebody bettering themselves, 1581 01:17:38,658 --> 01:17:40,827 you know, I, I think that's a hard-- 1582 01:17:41,327 --> 01:17:43,413 it's hard for the victims 1583 01:17:43,496 --> 01:17:46,249 to appreciate that as, as much, 1584 01:17:46,291 --> 01:17:50,003 you know, they'll, they'll never be whole again. 1585 01:17:50,795 --> 01:17:52,630 (over monitor) What, what do you think is your most 1586 01:17:52,714 --> 01:17:54,883 significant accomplishment 1587 01:17:54,966 --> 01:17:56,843 since you've been incarcerated? 1588 01:17:58,428 --> 01:17:59,471 (sighs) 1589 01:18:00,764 --> 01:18:02,432 I think that... 1590 01:18:05,018 --> 01:18:07,771 considering that I left my son 1591 01:18:07,854 --> 01:18:09,481 to grow up without a father, 1592 01:18:10,065 --> 01:18:11,900 (over laptop) I've always wanted to give him something 1593 01:18:11,983 --> 01:18:14,819 beyond what any parent in prison 1594 01:18:14,903 --> 01:18:17,405 can claim he's given his son. 1595 01:18:17,906 --> 01:18:19,449 And I'm happy to say that he tells me 1596 01:18:19,491 --> 01:18:21,034 that he's very proud of me. 1597 01:18:21,409 --> 01:18:22,327 Yep. 1598 01:18:22,619 --> 01:18:25,163 Carlos: And I still think that I've done so little. 1599 01:18:25,246 --> 01:18:27,624 So, I'm looking forward to giving him 1600 01:18:27,707 --> 01:18:29,459 more reasons to be proud. 1601 01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:32,003 Okay. 1602 01:18:32,295 --> 01:18:35,382 Mr. Rebollo, we're gonna discuss your case now, uh, 1603 01:18:35,465 --> 01:18:37,801 so you may just listen and you'll be able to hear 1604 01:18:37,884 --> 01:18:39,052 (over monitor) what we're going to do. 1605 01:18:39,135 --> 01:18:40,595 Smith-Palmieri: I think we're all in agreement 1606 01:18:40,637 --> 01:18:44,015 that Mr. Rebollo has done remarkable. 1607 01:18:44,099 --> 01:18:47,519 Carlos Daniel Rebollo, Jr. says, 1608 01:18:47,602 --> 01:18:52,315 "I love going to see him because he always gets me thinking. 1609 01:18:52,357 --> 01:18:54,484 He never gives up on me." 1610 01:18:55,485 --> 01:18:58,029 (over monitor) I believe that that actually shows us 1611 01:18:58,113 --> 01:19:00,365 where Mr. Rebollo is today. 1612 01:19:02,158 --> 01:19:04,661 commissioner chair: I make a motion that Mr. Rebollo be released 1613 01:19:04,703 --> 01:19:05,995 to a halfway house placement 1614 01:19:06,079 --> 01:19:08,790 under the purview of Department of Corrections 1615 01:19:08,832 --> 01:19:10,458 and Community Services. 1616 01:19:10,500 --> 01:19:12,168 -Is there a second? -Smith-Palmieri: I'll second. 1617 01:19:12,210 --> 01:19:13,545 -All in favor? -commissioners: Aye. 1618 01:19:13,628 --> 01:19:14,629 The chair votes aye. 1619 01:19:14,671 --> 01:19:17,507 Uh, it is so ordered. Thank you. 1620 01:19:18,425 --> 01:19:21,594 Mr. Rebollo, congratulations, good success to you, sir. 1621 01:19:21,678 --> 01:19:23,054 Thank you. 1622 01:19:23,805 --> 01:19:26,558 (birds chirping) 1623 01:19:32,772 --> 01:19:35,108 (tense music playing) 1624 01:19:37,694 --> 01:19:38,903 commissioner: Good morning, Mr. Scott. 1625 01:19:38,987 --> 01:19:40,989 This is a reappearance for you today. 1626 01:19:41,906 --> 01:19:44,534 You continue to serve a sentence of 25 to life. 1627 01:19:45,076 --> 01:19:47,078 This shooting was actually a hit. 1628 01:19:47,162 --> 01:19:49,581 What can you tell us about this incident? 1629 01:19:50,123 --> 01:19:53,335 Todd: I went knowing this man's life was going to be taken. 1630 01:19:54,044 --> 01:19:55,628 I could have probably even warned him 1631 01:19:55,712 --> 01:19:57,255 that his life was in danger. 1632 01:19:57,881 --> 01:19:59,382 commissioner: You couldn't say no? 1633 01:19:59,466 --> 01:20:01,092 Todd: They were like family then in my mind 1634 01:20:01,176 --> 01:20:04,304 because my own family wasn't showing me love. 1635 01:20:05,305 --> 01:20:06,973 It's also fear, too. 1636 01:20:07,057 --> 01:20:08,767 commissioner: Say you just said no. 1637 01:20:08,850 --> 01:20:10,393 "I will do whatever else you tell me to do, 1638 01:20:10,435 --> 01:20:11,561 but I don't wanna do that." 1639 01:20:11,644 --> 01:20:14,272 What would have been the result of you saying no? 1640 01:20:14,856 --> 01:20:16,691 Todd: I would have got killed. 1641 01:20:16,733 --> 01:20:18,401 I know this for a fact. 1642 01:20:19,027 --> 01:20:20,695 I didn't say this at the last hearing 1643 01:20:20,737 --> 01:20:23,239 but I don't owe these guys nothing no more. 1644 01:20:23,907 --> 01:20:25,992 This is something I never wanna see happen again 1645 01:20:26,076 --> 01:20:28,286 to anybody, no officer. 1646 01:20:29,454 --> 01:20:31,039 I did all this time in jail 1647 01:20:31,122 --> 01:20:33,917 and I see how these kids are weaponized by gangs. 1648 01:20:34,292 --> 01:20:36,670 The influences that are thrown at them, 1649 01:20:36,753 --> 01:20:40,090 even though you are influenced, you still make the choice. 1650 01:20:40,757 --> 01:20:42,634 commissioner: And you're Islam now, right? 1651 01:20:42,717 --> 01:20:43,885 Todd: Yes. 1652 01:20:43,968 --> 01:20:44,969 commissioner: And so, you know, 1653 01:20:45,053 --> 01:20:46,638 your responsibility is even greater. 1654 01:20:46,971 --> 01:20:48,139 Todd: I understand. 1655 01:20:48,223 --> 01:20:50,100 I'm trying to let go of my past. 1656 01:20:50,475 --> 01:20:52,894 I'm trying to move forward the right way. 1657 01:20:53,561 --> 01:20:56,564 Y'all have a hard job. I understand that. 1658 01:20:56,648 --> 01:20:58,566 This wasn't a small crime. 1659 01:20:59,734 --> 01:21:01,027 It was a huge thing, 1660 01:21:01,111 --> 01:21:04,406 and for years I always tried to minimize my role. 1661 01:21:05,407 --> 01:21:06,950 I was ashamed of myself. 1662 01:21:06,991 --> 01:21:08,326 I made a bad choice 1663 01:21:08,410 --> 01:21:11,371 and I just appreciate the chance to do good. 1664 01:21:12,956 --> 01:21:15,500 (music fades out) 1665 01:21:19,212 --> 01:21:20,797 Todd (on phone): I have a good feeling. 1666 01:21:20,839 --> 01:21:22,173 You know, I feel okay. 1667 01:21:22,465 --> 01:21:24,968 Trivedi: Have you ever, have you ever felt this way before? 1668 01:21:25,010 --> 01:21:26,219 Todd: Never. 1669 01:21:26,469 --> 01:21:28,430 What was the big, what was the big difference, Todd, 1670 01:21:28,513 --> 01:21:30,098 than past ones? 1671 01:21:32,350 --> 01:21:34,185 (Todd speaking) 1672 01:21:36,521 --> 01:21:37,564 Trivedi: Mm-hmm. 1673 01:21:42,402 --> 01:21:43,987 Trivedi: Yeah. Do you, do you feel like they were-- 1674 01:21:44,070 --> 01:21:46,281 do you feel like what you were saying really mattered? 1675 01:21:46,740 --> 01:21:48,324 (Todd speaking) 1676 01:22:01,171 --> 01:22:02,839 What kinda compliments were they giving you? 1677 01:22:02,922 --> 01:22:05,258 (Todd speaking) 1678 01:22:11,348 --> 01:22:12,557 Trivedi: I'm really proud of you. 1679 01:22:12,640 --> 01:22:15,060 (Todd speaking) 1680 01:22:16,978 --> 01:22:18,396 I know, I love you too. 1681 01:22:18,480 --> 01:22:19,689 (Todd speaking) 1682 01:22:19,731 --> 01:22:21,649 Alright, my man. Love you. Yeah. 1683 01:22:22,984 --> 01:22:24,569 (call ends) 1684 01:22:29,407 --> 01:22:31,034 (line ringing) 1685 01:22:31,076 --> 01:22:32,744 operator (on phone): Woodbourne Correctional. 1686 01:22:32,827 --> 01:22:34,704 -Chad (on phone): Hello. -Swartz: Hey. 1687 01:22:35,038 --> 01:22:37,207 Chad: Uh, I just got my decision. 1688 01:22:37,916 --> 01:22:40,168 Once again, I was denied parole. 1689 01:22:42,045 --> 01:22:43,129 On the bright side, 1690 01:22:43,213 --> 01:22:44,881 I guess if you wanted to look at one, 1691 01:22:44,964 --> 01:22:47,050 is I was only denied for parole for 12 months 1692 01:22:47,133 --> 01:22:48,760 this time instead of 15. 1693 01:22:49,719 --> 01:22:51,763 It's just frustrating 'cause I had such a good interview 1694 01:22:51,846 --> 01:22:55,850 and I felt like these commissioners were the ones. 1695 01:22:56,726 --> 01:22:59,354 Swartz: The law says you were 14 at the time, 1696 01:22:59,437 --> 01:23:02,023 you're entitled to a meaningful opportunity for release. 1697 01:23:02,899 --> 01:23:06,778 As for the facts of the crime, they are never going to change. 1698 01:23:07,237 --> 01:23:09,030 They are not allowed to deny you 1699 01:23:09,072 --> 01:23:10,907 just because the crime was serious, 1700 01:23:10,990 --> 01:23:13,785 and even more so because you were a juvenile. 1701 01:23:16,788 --> 01:23:18,289 We just keep fighting. 1702 01:23:19,082 --> 01:23:21,918 Chad: Fight's not out of me yet but I'm just, I'm just tired. 1703 01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:23,712 Swartz: You know I've believed all along 1704 01:23:23,795 --> 01:23:24,754 that we're gonna win in the end, 1705 01:23:24,796 --> 01:23:26,172 it's just a question of when. 1706 01:23:28,425 --> 01:23:31,094 In New York, we have a lot of people like Chad 1707 01:23:31,177 --> 01:23:33,388 who were sentenced as juveniles. 1708 01:23:33,471 --> 01:23:36,975 I believe that we'll get him out one way or another. 1709 01:23:37,308 --> 01:23:41,438 Chad's case makes me ask this question... 1710 01:23:42,063 --> 01:23:43,857 do we want to live in a country 1711 01:23:43,940 --> 01:23:48,445 where a child commits a crime that's terrible and horrific 1712 01:23:48,486 --> 01:23:50,280 and they spend their life in prison 1713 01:23:50,321 --> 01:23:51,656 no matter who they become, 1714 01:23:51,740 --> 01:23:55,201 no matter what they turn into as they grow and mature, 1715 01:23:55,994 --> 01:23:58,371 or do we wanna do better than that? 1716 01:23:58,872 --> 01:24:01,666 ♪♪ 1717 01:24:09,674 --> 01:24:11,676 (line ringing) 1718 01:24:12,927 --> 01:24:14,346 -Todd (on phone): Hello? -Trivedi: Hey. 1719 01:24:15,013 --> 01:24:16,598 Do you have the decision there with you? 1720 01:24:17,682 --> 01:24:18,850 Todd: Yeah. 1721 01:24:20,060 --> 01:24:22,562 (Todd speaking) 1722 01:24:34,324 --> 01:24:37,369 "...a reward for good conduct." Yeah. 1723 01:24:37,827 --> 01:24:39,454 (Todd speaking) 1724 01:24:40,038 --> 01:24:42,207 Oh, motherfuck. 1725 01:24:44,084 --> 01:24:47,504 (Todd speaking) 1726 01:24:52,509 --> 01:24:54,177 Trivedi: But, Todd, it's not about rehabilitation, 1727 01:24:54,219 --> 01:24:56,012 it's about fuckin' headlines, man. 1728 01:24:56,054 --> 01:24:57,806 I really think that. 1729 01:24:58,348 --> 01:25:01,768 It's, it's about who... 1730 01:25:03,269 --> 01:25:05,897 who is gonna lead to 1731 01:25:05,980 --> 01:25:07,982 a "New York Post" headline, 1732 01:25:08,024 --> 01:25:09,442 accusing the board of releasing someone 1733 01:25:09,526 --> 01:25:11,194 they shouldn't have released. 1734 01:25:11,778 --> 01:25:14,072 (Todd speaking) 1735 01:25:14,531 --> 01:25:16,074 Trivedi: It's fuckin' bullshit, man. 1736 01:25:16,616 --> 01:25:18,118 And they said as much in the decision. 1737 01:25:18,201 --> 01:25:19,953 Like, you can be as remorseful as you want, 1738 01:25:20,036 --> 01:25:21,204 but it won't change what you did. 1739 01:25:21,246 --> 01:25:22,622 It's like, well, if that's the game, 1740 01:25:22,706 --> 01:25:24,207 then why are we playing? 1741 01:25:24,582 --> 01:25:25,625 (Todd speaking) 1742 01:25:32,257 --> 01:25:33,925 Trivedi: That's how I feel too. 1743 01:25:34,884 --> 01:25:38,221 I feel like human garbage, so I'm gonna do that all day. 1744 01:25:38,722 --> 01:25:41,391 (Todd speaking) 1745 01:25:42,559 --> 01:25:44,728 Trivedi: Yeah, and it's really fuckin' good at it. 1746 01:25:44,811 --> 01:25:46,938 (Todd speaking) 1747 01:25:47,772 --> 01:25:49,858 Trivedi: I'll breathe when you're free, okay? 1748 01:25:50,233 --> 01:25:52,235 Listen, I love you like crazy. 1749 01:25:52,277 --> 01:25:55,613 (Todd speaking) 1750 01:25:56,990 --> 01:25:58,116 Love you, too. 1751 01:25:58,199 --> 01:25:59,492 (call ends) 1752 01:25:59,868 --> 01:26:01,911 (solemn music playing) 1753 01:26:03,872 --> 01:26:05,206 (sighs) 1754 01:26:10,628 --> 01:26:12,422 That decision he just read me essentially says, 1755 01:26:12,464 --> 01:26:14,257 "It doesn't matter what you do 1756 01:26:14,299 --> 01:26:16,343 "and it doesn't matter what you say. 1757 01:26:17,093 --> 01:26:19,929 "What you did is reprehensible 1758 01:26:19,971 --> 01:26:22,349 and that you are irredeemable." 1759 01:26:25,977 --> 01:26:27,937 Todd: I've done everything. 1760 01:26:28,271 --> 01:26:31,274 I've done more than what they asked, you know? 1761 01:26:31,316 --> 01:26:32,442 Y'all seen the parole packet. 1762 01:26:32,525 --> 01:26:36,071 I have letters from, um, correctional officers, 1763 01:26:36,446 --> 01:26:39,657 staff, the superintendent, assemblymen, 1764 01:26:39,741 --> 01:26:41,659 you know, that, "This man..." You know? 1765 01:26:41,743 --> 01:26:43,661 So I don't know what their reasons is. 1766 01:26:43,745 --> 01:26:45,914 I've been truthful, I've been open, 1767 01:26:45,997 --> 01:26:47,791 I've taken accountability. 1768 01:26:47,874 --> 01:26:49,918 I've-I've expressed my remorse, 1769 01:26:50,001 --> 01:26:51,336 my real remorse, you know? 1770 01:26:51,419 --> 01:26:53,838 I'm at wit's end with it. 1771 01:26:54,798 --> 01:26:57,550 Where's the sense of rehabilitation at? 1772 01:26:58,510 --> 01:26:59,719 It seems like the parole board 1773 01:26:59,803 --> 01:27:03,223 is stuck on looking at the crimes of years ago 1774 01:27:03,306 --> 01:27:05,141 than the steps you took to maturity 1775 01:27:05,225 --> 01:27:07,352 and turning things around with your life. 1776 01:27:07,435 --> 01:27:09,646 And that's, that's what it should be about. 1777 01:27:09,688 --> 01:27:11,815 ♪♪ 1778 01:27:13,900 --> 01:27:15,610 Chad: Hope in prison is probably the only thing 1779 01:27:15,652 --> 01:27:19,030 that keeps people sane and alive. 1780 01:27:19,489 --> 01:27:21,157 So, I mean, I'm hopeful, but, 1781 01:27:21,241 --> 01:27:22,826 it's like... 1782 01:27:23,368 --> 01:27:26,496 what more can I do? 1783 01:27:27,455 --> 01:27:30,333 Tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it. 1784 01:27:30,417 --> 01:27:32,043 I don't have a problem with that. 1785 01:27:32,127 --> 01:27:33,920 I owe everybody that. 1786 01:27:34,462 --> 01:27:37,799 But, it's just, as you can see, I just-- 1787 01:27:37,841 --> 01:27:39,634 it's just, it gets hard. 1788 01:27:40,135 --> 01:27:41,386 It gets hard. 1789 01:27:45,515 --> 01:27:47,892 (light music playing) 1790 01:27:51,688 --> 01:27:55,108 Sabrina: People think that everybody in prison is monsters 1791 01:27:55,191 --> 01:27:56,860 and that's not the truth. 1792 01:27:58,862 --> 01:28:02,615 And people go in broken and come out fixed. 1793 01:28:04,868 --> 01:28:07,579 Everybody deserves a second chance. 1794 01:28:09,205 --> 01:28:11,416 ♪♪ 1795 01:28:18,882 --> 01:28:20,425 I don't know. 1796 01:28:22,677 --> 01:28:25,180 Just to think of him walking out that door... 1797 01:28:25,263 --> 01:28:26,931 (sniffles) 1798 01:28:29,392 --> 01:28:31,728 just, just overwhelming. 1799 01:28:34,981 --> 01:28:35,940 (sighs) 1800 01:28:36,024 --> 01:28:38,610 ♪♪ 1801 01:28:41,571 --> 01:28:44,199 Todd: In here, when you look out the window, 1802 01:28:44,282 --> 01:28:45,825 you see wild geese, 1803 01:28:45,909 --> 01:28:49,162 I've seen deers out there and you see woods 1804 01:28:49,746 --> 01:28:52,123 so I don't know where I'm at. 1805 01:28:53,208 --> 01:28:55,085 All I know it's Central New York. 1806 01:28:57,879 --> 01:29:00,298 I never had a dream about freedom. 1807 01:29:01,174 --> 01:29:05,011 The last dream I had was about walking out the door. 1808 01:29:06,054 --> 01:29:08,848 I wonder what it would be like, you know? 1809 01:29:08,932 --> 01:29:11,351 ♪♪ 1810 01:29:19,734 --> 01:29:21,736 Sabrina: I believe in Todd and I believe 1811 01:29:21,778 --> 01:29:25,615 one day he's gonna get those three people that say, 1812 01:29:25,699 --> 01:29:28,660 "You've had enough. You did your time." 1813 01:29:29,619 --> 01:29:31,204 And he's gonna go home. 1814 01:29:31,287 --> 01:29:33,498 ♪♪ 1815 01:30:13,246 --> 01:30:14,497 (Carlos gasps) 1816 01:30:18,293 --> 01:30:19,294 Carlos: I love you a lot. 1817 01:30:19,377 --> 01:30:20,503 Carlos Rebollo, Jr.: I love you too. 1818 01:30:20,587 --> 01:30:21,796 (Carlos sighs deeply) 1819 01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:23,882 ♪♪ 1820 01:31:11,096 --> 01:31:13,932 ♪♪ 1821 01:32:11,990 --> 01:32:13,992 ♪♪ 1822 01:32:25,045 --> 01:32:26,921 (music fades out)