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Downloaded from
YTS.BZ
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.BZ
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Okay, nice and quiet.
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All right, let's roll sound.
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- Roll camera.
- Scene one, take one.
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Roll it.
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Set.
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And set.
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I guess a phone call
wakes me up.
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Oh, the alarm didn't go off?
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I think I just slept through the alarm.
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I set it for 8:30, because at 9:00,
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Jacqueline de Mornay
from Elle Magazine was coming.
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She was staying at the Chelsea,
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and her English was not too good.
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And she was coming
for pictures of Lauren Hutton.
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So it's 9:00 and the phone rings
and it's Jacqueline, and she says,
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"Is it okay to come in 20 minutes?"
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And I say, "Yes, it's perfect."
And I hop out of bed.
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I put the coffee water on and--
And the phone rings again
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and it was Susan Sontag.
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She said, "Are you awake?"
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And then she heard the radio
and said, "Oh yeah."
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She said,
"I want to go see your show today."
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She said, "I'm sure it's good."
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That she couldn't imagine it not being.
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And that she was going to Paris
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either today or tomorrow,
and might not make it to the show.
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So I told her about the guy
from the gallery calling
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and asking, did I know Max Kozlov
or Susan Sontag?
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Why?
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Actually, what I told her was a lie.
I'll tell you the other version.
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It was only a slight altering,
but it did reveal something.
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You mean he didn't
mention her name?
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Mm-mm.
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No. I guess I found myself
namedropping with him.
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Like, he called and said,
did I know Max Kozlov?
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And I said, "No, I know who he is."
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And he said, "Do you know
how to get in touch with him?"
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And I said, "No."
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He's doing a magaz--
A photo magazine and he wants somebody
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to write an introduction or something.
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And I said,
"Well, I don't know Max Kozlov.
44
00:04:02,951 --> 00:04:04,786
Why don't you ask Susan Sontag?"
45
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And he said, "Oh, you know her?"
And I said, "Yes."
46
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That's what happened.
That's the way it happened.
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I don't--
I didn't want to say that to Susan.
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And she said,
"No, I don't want to do it.
49
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I only write what I have to
or for friends."
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You're not a friend?
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Well, this wasn't for me.
This was for this magazine.
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She said it very sweetly.
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And I said, "Well, I wanted you to know,
54
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because if you go to the gallery today
and this guy approaches you,
55
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I didn't bother calling you."
And she said, "I'm glad you didn't."
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And then she said a big kiss.
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There was no beginning to that sentence.
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She said-- I think sometimes she even
might have called me "darling,"
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like a big kiss and then a space
and then darling.
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Goodbye.
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And then I get my coffee,
and I go sit at my desk,
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and it's not even 20 minutes,
and there's a knock on the door,
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and it's the Elle girl.
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Now, somehow in this time,
I've had the fantasy
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of being seduced by the Elle girl.
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Had you met her?
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No, but that she was
gonna come in,
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and it would be like in a French movie
and she'd walk in
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- and be right in the middle of the floor.
- Mm.
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And she'd be very raunchy
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and reach for my buttons.
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That was just one of the fantasies I had.
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But I thought it might be terrific
right then in the morning.
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Very French.
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So she comes in and she's short.
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She's wearing this long cape
and she's very sort of that French chic.
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- Not arty, but sort of almost.
- Mm-hm.
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And she comes in and she says,
"Hello, I'm Jacqueline."
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And I say, "Hi, come in."
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And she says, "Oh, you live here?
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Ooh, this is your studio, too? Very nice."
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Because somehow she liked the place.
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Sometimes people come in
and say, "Did you just move in?"
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Or, "It'll be nice
once you get it fixed up."
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You want something to drink?
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No, and I say, "It is fixed up."
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And then I said,
"These are the pictures of Lauren Hutton."
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And she says,
"Oh, they're wonderful.
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They're not like those of Avedon."
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Because Lauren Hutton is beautiful,
but she looks like a boy,
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you know, in her Levi's and sneakers.
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And I say, "How much
are they going to pay?"
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And she said, "Oh, I don't know."
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The article's gonna be four pages
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and she doesn't know whether they're
gonna use one picture or four pictures.
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So I said,
"Well, what's your page rate?"
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And she doesn't know.
I almost got suspicious.
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I thought this could be some--
Some fan of Lauren Hutton's
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who's doing this great scheme
to steal pictures of Lauren Hutton.
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What was she supposed to be,
an editor?
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Yeah. I wouldn't mind losing pictures
to someone who would...
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But I'd love to get money. Four pages.
103
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- Yeah. Should be quite a lot.
- Could be a lot of money.
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Yeah, well, she should know how much.
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Yeah, I would've thought as an editor
she should know,
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especially as she was sent
for the pictures.
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I'm really trying very hard to be
a businessman to some degree at least.
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I think you have every right
to know before you give her the pictures.
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Yeah. I used to go to the other extreme.
And I would give them the pictures,
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and they would leave with them,
and I wouldn't say anything about money.
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And I would hope
that I would get a check or--
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But I did ask her and she didn't know.
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And she said that she'd be back on the 7th
of January and that she'd call me.
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- Where was she going?
- Back to France.
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On Susan's plane?
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I don't know.
Yeah, the same plane.
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So then she took the pictures
and I said, "Okay," and she also.
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And then I said,
"Let me just write your name."
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And I got the name as D-E capital M.
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And she said, "No, not the big M."
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So then I put the pictures in an envelope
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and she said goodbye, and I said goodbye,
and then she left.
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Never to be heard from again.
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I almost feel like she was there less time
than it took me to tell the story.
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So I'm having my coffee
and I decided to figure out
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how much money is owed me,
because it's getting fuzzy.
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So I added up all the definites
that I know that I'm getting.
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Three hundred for this restaurant job,
but I apparently will get 450.
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So, in one column,
I put absolutely definite 300,
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and in the other, I put $450.
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- Hopeful.
- It's very possible.
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And it came out to,
absolutely definite was $825.
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That's not including the Village Voice
piece, that still could possibly happen.
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- It's due next week.
- Well, that is definite.
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- Yeah.
- I mean, a week from today.
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Yeah, the next issue.
How much of the tape is gone already?
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A third.
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I don't know whether
to give more or less detail.
139
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It's good.
140
00:09:05,086 --> 00:09:07,130
Okay. So is it boring or--?
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00:09:07,297 --> 00:09:09,049
No, it's not boring to me.
142
00:09:09,215 --> 00:09:13,595
So then Bob Mony calls. He does indexing.
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But he's a piano player.
He plays the harpsichord.
144
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He's really so good.
He does it like six hours a day.
145
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- He asks if I know Lily.
- Who?
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- Lily, who used to be Clydine Malleck.
- Oh, right.
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Paul gave her the name of Lily.
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- Paul did it?
- Mm-hm.
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Hm. I didn't know Paul did it.
I thought some great master did it.
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00:09:33,656 --> 00:09:35,867
Oh, no, this was no great master.
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I went there for a gay men's weekend,
and really, it's an IBM modern religion.
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Did you see the ad they put
in the Voice with the bodies
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- piled one on top of the other?
- All done in a Design Research way.
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00:09:47,921 --> 00:09:50,507
It's really quite chic
with these beautiful brown rugs--
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No, green rugs and brown walls,
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and these great bean bag chairs,
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and Design Research furniture,
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and nice tables,
and it's really quite affluent.
159
00:10:04,104 --> 00:10:06,189
- It's not in the least bit poor.
- It's tacky.
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00:10:06,356 --> 00:10:07,774
- What?
- Tacky.
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00:10:08,316 --> 00:10:11,611
It might be tacky on a certain level,
but it's affluent.
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In the sense that they have money.
163
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We are about money. We are modern.
164
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Anyway... he wants to know
if I have Lily's phone number.
165
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Because Lily is going to Rome
to meet Paul,
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00:10:27,585 --> 00:10:29,379
and she wanted to go to Paul's house.
167
00:10:30,004 --> 00:10:32,090
- Bob Mony is a neighbor of Paul's.
- In New York?
168
00:10:32,257 --> 00:10:34,050
Yeah, his New York apartment.
169
00:10:34,217 --> 00:10:37,220
Alan Lloyd lives across the hall
from Bob Mony's apartment.
170
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Yeah, I knew Alan was in there.
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00:10:38,847 --> 00:10:40,849
Alan Lloyd has the keys
to Paul's apartment.
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Don't know where Alan was.
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00:10:42,267 --> 00:10:45,979
Bob Mony thought that Alan
was at his Aunt Phoebe's.
174
00:10:46,146 --> 00:10:47,939
- I've heard that name before.
- Phoebe Lloyd.
175
00:10:48,106 --> 00:10:49,899
Yeah, I told you the weird thing
about that.
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00:10:50,066 --> 00:10:54,028
That Linda Lloyd, if she had a girl,
she was gonna name her Phoebe Lloyd.
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00:10:54,195 --> 00:10:55,572
Anyway...
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00:10:57,365 --> 00:11:02,328
I give him her home number
and her Arrica phone number.
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00:11:02,495 --> 00:11:07,500
And how are things, see ya, goodbye.
180
00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:12,338
At this point, my plan
is to go back to bed.
181
00:11:12,505 --> 00:11:13,798
What time is it about?
182
00:11:13,965 --> 00:11:15,800
About 10:15.
183
00:11:15,967 --> 00:11:17,760
I wanted to get rid of that girl.
184
00:11:17,927 --> 00:11:19,804
And go back to sleep until 11:30.
185
00:11:23,892 --> 00:11:25,560
Then Ed Baynard called.
186
00:11:25,727 --> 00:11:28,646
- Did you go back to sleep?
- No, I was just about to.
187
00:11:29,731 --> 00:11:33,776
It was 10:15 and Ed Baynard calls.
And he says, "Are you busy?"
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00:11:34,277 --> 00:11:35,486
I say, "Yes."
189
00:11:36,404 --> 00:11:37,989
And he says, "Call me back."
190
00:11:38,948 --> 00:11:41,409
And I say, "No, I have a minute."
191
00:11:42,202 --> 00:11:44,996
And he says, "Call me back." And I say,
"Now is the best time."
192
00:11:45,163 --> 00:11:47,373
He says, "We're not getting through
to each other."
193
00:11:47,540 --> 00:11:49,292
And I say, "No, I am busy, Ed.
194
00:11:49,459 --> 00:11:51,294
But I will be much busier later."
195
00:11:51,461 --> 00:11:54,297
And he says, "Are you working
in the darkroom?" And I say, "Yes."
196
00:11:54,464 --> 00:11:57,634
Oh, oh, oh, now I know every time
I call and you say--
197
00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,720
No, I really cannot stand
to talk to Ed Baynard.
198
00:12:00,887 --> 00:12:03,014
I can't get off the phone, no one can.
199
00:12:03,181 --> 00:12:05,683
He won't let you off,
he's the master of it.
200
00:12:06,351 --> 00:12:09,604
And he also doesn't listen.
He's totally insane.
201
00:12:10,772 --> 00:12:14,150
If this ever gets printed,
I hope it's printed with his name.
202
00:12:14,317 --> 00:12:15,860
What do you mean if? When.
203
00:12:16,486 --> 00:12:19,781
I mean this part. I really want you
to use real names.
204
00:12:22,158 --> 00:12:24,953
And he said, "Anyway--
Well, three things."
205
00:12:25,119 --> 00:12:26,829
Does he always have a list?
206
00:12:26,996 --> 00:12:28,998
No, I guess he concised it.
207
00:12:29,165 --> 00:12:33,461
"Fred McDarrah is reviewing the gallery
and I'm not reviewing your show."
208
00:12:33,628 --> 00:12:36,005
You mean if Fred was doing it instead?
209
00:12:36,673 --> 00:12:37,674
Yeah.
210
00:12:38,383 --> 00:12:40,176
And I said, "Oh."
211
00:12:40,343 --> 00:12:42,845
He said, "I think he's doing
it more reviewing the gallery."
212
00:12:43,012 --> 00:12:47,225
And I said, "Too bad, 'cause Ed Baynard
was gonna review the show,
213
00:12:47,392 --> 00:12:50,270
and not mention Christopher Makos,"
which I thought was terrific.
214
00:12:50,436 --> 00:12:52,939
But I guess it is his show.
215
00:12:53,940 --> 00:12:56,442
Did I tell you they offered me
another show in January?
216
00:12:56,985 --> 00:12:59,988
She called me and said, "Can you get
a show together?" I said, "No."
217
00:13:00,154 --> 00:13:02,573
- Oh, yeah?
- I don't want to let any shit out.
218
00:13:03,074 --> 00:13:06,411
Well, you-- You have to decide,
you have to look around.
219
00:13:06,577 --> 00:13:08,621
I mean, in terms of, like, a gallery.
220
00:13:09,998 --> 00:13:13,626
If I have a show, I want it to be like...
221
00:13:15,044 --> 00:13:16,713
like the group of pictures.
222
00:13:17,672 --> 00:13:19,716
Which was, I think, quite together.
223
00:13:21,426 --> 00:13:23,928
Whatever I do, I think that was the best
of what I do now.
224
00:13:24,095 --> 00:13:26,180
- There wasn't a bad photograph in there.
- Right.
225
00:13:26,347 --> 00:13:27,724
- Quite reputable.
- Extremely.
226
00:13:27,890 --> 00:13:32,020
- So I was annoyed, but I said, "Oh, well."
- Cool.
227
00:13:32,603 --> 00:13:34,939
What else could I say?
228
00:13:35,523 --> 00:13:37,775
He said, "Second I quit the Voice."
229
00:13:37,942 --> 00:13:38,860
Why?
230
00:13:39,569 --> 00:13:42,989
'Cause Ed wrote an article
about Lilo and her photography,
231
00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,075
but they didn't want Ed
to use his name,
232
00:13:46,242 --> 00:13:48,036
but to publish
under Allie Anderson's name
233
00:13:48,202 --> 00:13:51,497
as the editor of the centerfold, because
she said it was getting too inbred.
234
00:13:51,664 --> 00:13:54,542
- And he said, "Inbred, white bread."
- Really good.
235
00:13:54,709 --> 00:13:58,046
Somehow, I didn't think it mattered.
I mean, so what if your name's not on it?
236
00:13:59,464 --> 00:14:02,091
Third on the list was Christmas Day.
237
00:14:02,258 --> 00:14:06,220
He said, "What are you doing?"
I said, "I don't know yet."
238
00:14:06,929 --> 00:14:09,849
And he said,
"Well, we're having a thing here,
239
00:14:10,016 --> 00:14:12,101
and it'll be just people."
240
00:14:12,268 --> 00:14:14,937
- And I said, "Oh."
- With no geese, no ducks.
241
00:14:15,104 --> 00:14:18,941
He said, "Well, Bill Elliot, Lilo."
242
00:14:19,108 --> 00:14:22,278
- Yeah, the same old inbred crowd.
- I think he meant, like the real people.
243
00:14:22,445 --> 00:14:23,946
Just us.
244
00:14:25,365 --> 00:14:28,451
And I said, "Well, I have to get back
to the darkroom now."
245
00:14:29,660 --> 00:14:34,665
And-- and I go back to bed
with my clothes on.
246
00:14:35,666 --> 00:14:37,627
I had made the bed earlier
247
00:14:38,127 --> 00:14:41,923
for Jacqueline de Mornay to be neat.
I wanted to appear neat.
248
00:14:42,882 --> 00:14:45,676
So I just slipped under the blanket
with my clothes on.
249
00:14:45,843 --> 00:14:47,887
You fall asleep so easily.
250
00:14:49,055 --> 00:14:51,766
- Well, I was tired, yeah.
- Obviously.
251
00:14:52,975 --> 00:14:57,021
I set the clock for 11:30,
and I fall right asleep.
252
00:14:57,814 --> 00:14:59,357
What a life.
253
00:15:01,526 --> 00:15:06,072
I stay in bed till 11:45,
and then I put my clothes on.
254
00:15:06,239 --> 00:15:08,282
I thought you hadn't taken them off.
255
00:15:09,409 --> 00:15:10,743
Oh...
256
00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:12,453
I guess I didn't. I just lied.
257
00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:15,039
Well, you--
You must have taken something.
258
00:15:15,206 --> 00:15:16,040
Maybe your shoes.
259
00:15:16,207 --> 00:15:18,584
I guess I put my shoes back on. Something.
260
00:15:19,127 --> 00:15:21,963
Anyway, I go
and make another cup of coffee
261
00:15:22,130 --> 00:15:25,550
and two pieces of toast
with raspberry jelly.
262
00:15:25,716 --> 00:15:29,637
And now I'm going to call
Allen Ginsberg at exactly noon.
263
00:15:30,138 --> 00:15:32,557
Because he does his meditations.
264
00:15:32,723 --> 00:15:35,852
And they told me to call him either
after 11:00 at night or at 12:00.
265
00:15:36,018 --> 00:15:38,146
So it's exactly 12:00, and I call him.
266
00:15:38,646 --> 00:15:39,939
It's busy.
267
00:15:40,648 --> 00:15:44,986
So I put my red jacket on,
and I go downstairs to buy cigarettes.
268
00:15:45,153 --> 00:15:49,073
And I break a $10 bill,
and I give her also a penny,
269
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,409
because the cigarettes are 56 cents.
270
00:15:51,576 --> 00:15:52,618
God, they are?
271
00:15:52,785 --> 00:15:57,123
I come back up, and I call Allen Ginsberg,
and it's still busy.
272
00:15:57,915 --> 00:16:00,334
Then at about 12:20,
273
00:16:00,501 --> 00:16:05,006
I finally get through
and a male voice answers.
274
00:16:05,173 --> 00:16:08,259
And I say, "Is Allen Ginsberg there?"
275
00:16:08,426 --> 00:16:14,223
And he says, "Who's calling?"
And I say, "It's Peter Hujar.
276
00:16:14,390 --> 00:16:18,436
And I'm supposed to take pictures
of Allen Ginsberg for the Times."
277
00:16:18,603 --> 00:16:22,440
And the male voice says, "It's Peter Hujar
from the Times, Allen."
278
00:16:23,232 --> 00:16:25,860
And Allen comes
to the phone and says, "Hi."
279
00:16:26,027 --> 00:16:29,530
And I say, "Hello."
And he says, "Who's this?"
280
00:16:30,781 --> 00:16:33,117
And I say, "It's Peter Hujar.
And I leave out the part
281
00:16:33,284 --> 00:16:35,203
about the Times,
because he knows that already.
282
00:16:35,369 --> 00:16:37,788
And I say,
"I'm supposed to photograph you."
283
00:16:37,955 --> 00:16:40,124
And he says, "Fine."
284
00:16:40,917 --> 00:16:43,753
And I say, "What about today?"
285
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,380
And he says, "Good. Today."
286
00:16:47,215 --> 00:16:49,842
- And I say, "When?"
- And he says, "This afternoon."
287
00:16:50,009 --> 00:16:52,512
And I say, "How about in an hour?"
And he says, "Fine.
288
00:16:52,678 --> 00:16:56,224
Or even three quarters of an hour.
I'm just gonna get something to eat."
289
00:16:56,390 --> 00:16:58,559
And I mentioned something
about a portrait.
290
00:16:58,726 --> 00:17:04,649
And he carries on about,
"It's just like them, portraits..."
291
00:17:06,234 --> 00:17:09,946
He didn't say old-fashioned,
but some word that made it sound
292
00:17:10,112 --> 00:17:15,409
like they were really-- "These people
are still doing portraits in the paper."
293
00:17:15,576 --> 00:17:18,204
The whole tone was very unpleasant.
294
00:17:18,371 --> 00:17:21,541
And I said, "Well," and he said,
"Well, you better call The Times
295
00:17:21,707 --> 00:17:23,876
and tell them we can't do that."
296
00:17:24,043 --> 00:17:28,756
And I said,
"Well, let's not worry about it.
297
00:17:28,923 --> 00:17:30,800
Let's just do what we can.
298
00:17:30,967 --> 00:17:34,136
And you don't have to do
anything you don't want to do.
299
00:17:34,303 --> 00:17:36,222
As long as you're
in the picture, we'll do it."
300
00:17:36,389 --> 00:17:39,392
And he said,
"No. You better call the Times."
301
00:17:39,559 --> 00:17:43,437
And I think I got really tough.
I said, "Look, it's very strange."
302
00:17:43,604 --> 00:17:46,816
What are you worrying about?"
I said, "Don't worry about it.
303
00:17:46,983 --> 00:17:49,569
We'll just do it how you want to do it.
It's okay."
304
00:17:49,735 --> 00:17:53,197
And he says, "I just wanna make it clear."
And I said, "It really doesn't matter.
305
00:17:53,364 --> 00:17:57,201
They just want a picture. There are no
orders. You don't have to do a portrait."
306
00:17:57,368 --> 00:17:59,287
So I said,
"Okay, I'll see you in an hour."
307
00:17:59,453 --> 00:18:01,622
Does he still live on the Lower East Side?
308
00:18:01,789 --> 00:18:04,458
Yeah, and he gives me the address,
309
00:18:04,625 --> 00:18:08,087
which was 10th Street between C and D.
310
00:18:08,254 --> 00:18:11,007
And he says, "You know where that's at?"
And I say, "Yeah, I know,
311
00:18:11,173 --> 00:18:15,469
I live down here, too." He says, "Where?"
And I say, 2nd Avenue and 12th Street,"
312
00:18:15,636 --> 00:18:18,973
- which suddenly doesn't quite make it.
- It feels like the Upper East Side.
313
00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:21,726
The guy's up there
in a fancy neighborhood.
314
00:18:21,892 --> 00:18:23,811
So I get my camera stuff together,
315
00:18:23,978 --> 00:18:27,148
and I have to decide what coat to wear
to the Lower East Side.
316
00:18:28,065 --> 00:18:33,112
And somehow, I think I'll wear my long,
whatever it is, coat.
317
00:18:34,030 --> 00:18:37,408
And I leave with that, but then I decide,
"No, it's wrong."
318
00:18:37,575 --> 00:18:40,953
I don't quite know what the criterion
is here, but it just didn't feel the coat
319
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,748
to wear to the Lower East Side
to meet Allen Ginsberg.
320
00:18:44,332 --> 00:18:47,918
I also had a flash that there was
something sort of bohemian poet about it,
321
00:18:48,085 --> 00:18:50,212
and I'd be much snazzier
in my red ski jacket.
322
00:18:50,379 --> 00:18:51,797
Oh, good choice, yeah.
323
00:18:51,964 --> 00:18:54,675
I just think it's more like
Lower East Side.
324
00:18:55,426 --> 00:18:58,262
Oh, before I leave, I water the plants.
325
00:19:00,931 --> 00:19:03,643
And at this point, I'm not exactly sure
what time he called me.
326
00:19:03,809 --> 00:19:05,019
Who called?
327
00:19:05,186 --> 00:19:06,354
Allen Ginsberg.
328
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,356
- But I talked to Allen Ginsberg.
- Oh.
329
00:19:08,522 --> 00:19:13,819
So that hour of getting ready,
I couldn't quite remember when that was.
330
00:19:13,986 --> 00:19:16,530
But anyway,
I watered the plants before I left.
331
00:19:16,697 --> 00:19:18,532
Do you have a watering can?
332
00:19:19,241 --> 00:19:20,368
No.
333
00:19:20,534 --> 00:19:23,287
The coffee pot,
which I fill up in the tub,
334
00:19:23,454 --> 00:19:25,498
because the pressure is much quicker.
335
00:19:33,464 --> 00:19:35,508
Then I walked to Allen Ginsberg's,
336
00:19:36,467 --> 00:19:39,178
down 2nd Avenue
and straight across 10th Street,
337
00:19:39,345 --> 00:19:42,682
past Fred and Simona Tuten's and those
other people, that writer critic?
338
00:19:42,848 --> 00:19:44,475
- John Gruen?
- Yeah.
339
00:19:45,142 --> 00:19:46,686
But Ginsberg's like two more blocks
340
00:19:46,852 --> 00:19:49,230
further down where it
really gets to looking dismal.
341
00:19:49,397 --> 00:19:51,774
And this Puerto Rican had yellow paint
342
00:19:51,941 --> 00:19:56,112
all over his hands,
really thick smeared down his nose,
343
00:19:56,278 --> 00:20:00,116
like he'd sprayed himself
with chrome spray paint, orange, yellow.
344
00:20:00,282 --> 00:20:03,828
And his shirt and his hands
were just all--
345
00:20:03,994 --> 00:20:07,289
And on the face it was much lighter,
it was a little more spread out.
346
00:20:07,456 --> 00:20:09,792
So it was like this glow on his face.
347
00:20:09,959 --> 00:20:11,877
But then he wiped his nose
and there was this streak.
348
00:20:12,044 --> 00:20:15,339
- Was he just standing on the street?
- He came out of the building
349
00:20:15,506 --> 00:20:17,633
and he looked at me almost like nasty.
350
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,761
And I thought,
"Oh, he can tell, an alien."
351
00:20:20,928 --> 00:20:22,972
I almost felt fancy down there.
352
00:20:23,139 --> 00:20:24,974
The neighborhood intimidates me
way in there.
353
00:20:25,141 --> 00:20:27,435
It's very frightening,
so rundown and dreary.
354
00:20:27,601 --> 00:20:29,603
It's like the Bronx
where my Aunt Pauline lives.
355
00:20:29,770 --> 00:20:33,983
I don't have any real fear, but it's
very uncomfortable to go down there.
356
00:20:37,611 --> 00:20:40,698
Anyway, I get to his house
and I go to apartment 4C,
357
00:20:40,865 --> 00:20:42,450
and I knock three times on the door.
358
00:20:42,616 --> 00:20:43,659
He told you to?
359
00:20:43,826 --> 00:20:45,911
No, I just-- I just did.
360
00:20:46,579 --> 00:20:50,332
And Peter Orlovsky opens the door
wearing his tam,
361
00:20:50,499 --> 00:20:52,960
and his hair is still
down the back of his neck.
362
00:20:53,586 --> 00:20:57,089
And he's really like,
45 years old,
363
00:20:57,256 --> 00:20:58,966
like an old Polish man.
364
00:20:59,133 --> 00:21:01,385
And I don't know whether he had it before,
but you know those moles
365
00:21:01,552 --> 00:21:03,262
that are skin-colored with hair.
366
00:21:03,429 --> 00:21:05,598
- Mm.
- Like old people have on their faces?
367
00:21:05,765 --> 00:21:08,017
He's got two of them on his cheek.
368
00:21:08,184 --> 00:21:11,937
And he's... he's heavier.
369
00:21:12,104 --> 00:21:13,647
It's not really like it's fat.
370
00:21:13,814 --> 00:21:15,608
- It's like it's--
- Like he's getting older.
371
00:21:15,775 --> 00:21:18,986
Yeah, there's a lot of gray in his beard.
372
00:21:19,153 --> 00:21:22,156
And he says, "Allen's on the phone.
Sit down."
373
00:21:22,656 --> 00:21:25,534
And I don't know what I expected
of Allen Ginsberg's apartment,
374
00:21:25,701 --> 00:21:29,455
but it was really the most
rundown tenement
375
00:21:29,955 --> 00:21:32,291
with tenement furniture,
376
00:21:32,458 --> 00:21:36,921
linoleum, a few sort of Indian things,
377
00:21:37,421 --> 00:21:42,218
a mattress on the floor,
Bob Dylan poster on the wall,
378
00:21:42,885 --> 00:21:44,845
Rolling Stones...
379
00:21:45,012 --> 00:21:47,223
Oh, there was some guitars around.
380
00:21:47,389 --> 00:21:50,059
And-- Oh, and there was a girl there
381
00:21:50,226 --> 00:21:53,562
with a very New York accent, around 22.
382
00:21:53,729 --> 00:21:56,023
She was just sitting around?
383
00:21:56,190 --> 00:21:58,108
- They were addressing Christmas cards.
- Oh.
384
00:21:58,275 --> 00:21:59,902
And went back
to addressing Christmas cards.
385
00:22:00,069 --> 00:22:02,947
- She was helping them do theirs?
- Mm--
386
00:22:05,241 --> 00:22:08,452
Allen was on the phone-- You're assuming
something that we don't know.
387
00:22:09,328 --> 00:22:12,414
Whether she lived with them
or I couldn't tell.
388
00:22:12,581 --> 00:22:14,041
I think they were involved somehow.
389
00:22:14,208 --> 00:22:17,878
I also had the feeling that Allen
actually lives more in the country
390
00:22:18,045 --> 00:22:22,049
and that Peter lives there with this girl.
That was my guess.
391
00:22:22,925 --> 00:22:25,094
He's on the phone talking about Ellsberg.
392
00:22:25,261 --> 00:22:26,637
Oh, what was he saying?
393
00:22:26,804 --> 00:22:30,808
I really wasn't that interested somehow.
I could've listened, but I didn't bother.
394
00:22:31,433 --> 00:22:34,478
And then he got off the phone
and he said,
395
00:22:34,645 --> 00:22:36,814
"Hi, want some tea?"
396
00:22:37,439 --> 00:22:40,484
And then he said, "No, let's go
right now," before I had the chance.
397
00:22:40,651 --> 00:22:43,279
And I said, "No, look, you want
a cup of tea? I'd like one,"
398
00:22:43,445 --> 00:22:45,614
because I didn't want to go
right out to the site.
399
00:22:46,156 --> 00:22:49,201
So we have a cup of coffee,
and Hibiscus calls,
400
00:22:49,368 --> 00:22:51,871
and he says, "Hello, Hibiscus."
401
00:22:52,872 --> 00:22:56,792
And when he gets off the phone,
he's being very cool and suspicious.
402
00:22:56,959 --> 00:22:59,128
Does he have a big beard and everything?
403
00:22:59,795 --> 00:23:04,091
Yeah, it's like in India,
really out like this and he's bald on top.
404
00:23:04,258 --> 00:23:07,303
He has these glasses with wire rims.
He used to have those dark glasses.
405
00:23:07,469 --> 00:23:09,805
Yeah, I have a nice picture
of him with Gregory
406
00:23:09,972 --> 00:23:11,265
that Gregory gave me.
407
00:23:11,432 --> 00:23:12,725
I'd like to see it.
408
00:23:14,602 --> 00:23:17,646
And then I asked him something like,
"What's with Hibiscus?"
409
00:23:17,813 --> 00:23:19,690
- And he asked him...
- You know Hibiscus?
410
00:23:19,857 --> 00:23:20,941
Yeah.
411
00:23:21,567 --> 00:23:26,196
"Oh, show, where, when,
412
00:23:26,363 --> 00:23:27,740
how's your love life?
413
00:23:27,907 --> 00:23:31,327
Good. The same one? Goodbye."
414
00:23:32,786 --> 00:23:36,874
And... and then I said,
415
00:23:37,041 --> 00:23:39,126
"Does he still have
the same boyfriend?"
416
00:23:39,668 --> 00:23:41,503
And he said, he still does.
417
00:23:42,796 --> 00:23:44,715
And then he said,
418
00:23:45,591 --> 00:23:48,427
"I was in an Angel show in San Francisco."
419
00:23:48,594 --> 00:23:51,347
And I said, "I was in an Angel show here.
420
00:23:52,389 --> 00:23:55,643
I was Mother Goose
and I looked like Vivian Leigh,"
421
00:23:55,809 --> 00:23:57,478
but he doesn't respond at all.
422
00:23:58,604 --> 00:24:02,024
I almost feel like everything
I'm saying wasn't even heard.
423
00:24:06,612 --> 00:24:10,658
And then we go out and go to this
424
00:24:10,824 --> 00:24:12,910
burned-out building
where he was mugged,
425
00:24:13,077 --> 00:24:16,830
and he stands there,
and he points at the door.
426
00:24:16,997 --> 00:24:18,791
Is he wearing an Indian robe?
427
00:24:18,958 --> 00:24:21,001
No, Levi's.
428
00:24:23,629 --> 00:24:26,173
Oh, he says he has the same clothes
429
00:24:26,340 --> 00:24:28,133
as when he was mugged.
430
00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:30,552
And I said,
"I don't think it really matters."
431
00:24:32,096 --> 00:24:37,059
And he says something
about something, I forget.
432
00:24:40,562 --> 00:24:42,731
So we go there and I say,
"It looks like something
433
00:24:42,898 --> 00:24:45,818
out of an Italian comic book,"
pointing that way.
434
00:24:46,402 --> 00:24:50,030
I couldn't remember fumetti,
but it somehow had that look.
435
00:24:50,781 --> 00:24:53,701
I say, "You really want to look
that way in the New York Times?"
436
00:24:53,867 --> 00:24:56,328
And he says,
"I want the people to see."
437
00:24:57,413 --> 00:25:02,126
And he somehow ties it up with all these
burned-out buildings, boarded-up windows
438
00:25:02,292 --> 00:25:03,585
and people still living there.
439
00:25:03,752 --> 00:25:06,505
- It's very desolate and strange.
- Right in his neighborhood.
440
00:25:06,672 --> 00:25:07,715
Yeah.
441
00:25:07,881 --> 00:25:10,467
And the buildings
are burned-out, whole floors,
442
00:25:10,634 --> 00:25:13,095
like these people are being burned-out.
443
00:25:14,930 --> 00:25:18,809
And he points at a building and says,
"Tuli Kupferberg lives there."
444
00:25:19,935 --> 00:25:22,229
And I didn't quite know
what to say to that.
445
00:25:23,647 --> 00:25:26,316
I thought, "I should tell him
I photographed Tuli Kupferberg,
446
00:25:26,483 --> 00:25:27,985
but I don't really want to."
447
00:25:29,570 --> 00:25:33,365
But I do. I say, "Oh, I photographed him
when he was with The Fugs."
448
00:25:34,783 --> 00:25:37,119
Then he points at the butcher's shop
449
00:25:37,911 --> 00:25:40,330
and says,
"That was the Peace Eye bookstore.
450
00:25:40,497 --> 00:25:43,667
You can take a picture of me in it,
so I can send it to Ed Sanders."
451
00:25:43,834 --> 00:25:45,294
So I do that.
452
00:25:45,461 --> 00:25:49,506
And he says, "Can you get
all this stuff in that's charred?"
453
00:25:49,673 --> 00:25:50,924
And I say, "Sure, sure."
454
00:25:51,091 --> 00:25:54,261
Is-- Is he still suspicious
or has he warmed up?
455
00:25:54,428 --> 00:25:55,429
No.
456
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,640
And I say, "Oh, it looks real arty."
457
00:25:58,807 --> 00:26:02,644
Standing in the burned-out butcher's shop
window with his arms crossed, chanting.
458
00:26:02,811 --> 00:26:05,355
- Yeah. Om...
- Yeah.
459
00:26:05,522 --> 00:26:08,984
He kept doing the
om, pom, tom, pom, tom...
460
00:26:09,151 --> 00:26:11,528
And then we go to the doorway
across the street.
461
00:26:12,863 --> 00:26:16,700
And he sits down in the lotus position
looking very Buddha,
462
00:26:16,867 --> 00:26:19,620
right in the doorway,
and he starts to chant.
463
00:26:19,787 --> 00:26:22,039
And I really think,
"Well, I can't interrupt God."
464
00:26:22,206 --> 00:26:25,501
I can't say, "Can you please stop that?
465
00:26:25,667 --> 00:26:28,378
Do you really want a picture
sitting in the doorway?"
466
00:26:28,545 --> 00:26:30,339
- Yeah, he does, though.
- He does, though.
467
00:26:32,299 --> 00:26:36,678
And then this girl and Peter walk by
468
00:26:36,845 --> 00:26:39,973
and he waves and says,
"Come have your picture taken.
469
00:26:40,140 --> 00:26:42,518
We haven't had a picture together
in a long time."
470
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,521
So I think it's just gonna
be the two of them,
471
00:26:45,687 --> 00:26:48,649
but then the girl gets in, too,
so it's the three.
472
00:26:49,566 --> 00:26:52,319
I somehow thought it might
be interesting to have a picture
473
00:26:52,486 --> 00:26:54,446
of one of the longest marriages.
474
00:27:00,744 --> 00:27:03,747
Oh, when I had my coffee,
this goes back,
475
00:27:05,124 --> 00:27:07,668
the girl said, "There's no sugar."
476
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:10,671
But then she did find
a single sugar pack
477
00:27:10,838 --> 00:27:13,132
because she said,
"Honey is so awful in coffee."
478
00:27:13,298 --> 00:27:15,092
- Ouch.
- ]Peter chuckles]
479
00:27:15,259 --> 00:27:16,885
I like it. It's good.
480
00:27:18,971 --> 00:27:20,806
We finished taking pictures
on the street,
481
00:27:20,973 --> 00:27:22,975
and I don't really know
what else to do there.
482
00:27:23,142 --> 00:27:25,227
And at one point I said,
"You're talking to me
483
00:27:25,394 --> 00:27:27,604
like I'm the New York Times and I'm not",
484
00:27:27,771 --> 00:27:30,983
because he kept throwing in things
about the ownership of The Times'
485
00:27:31,150 --> 00:27:33,902
connections with the oil interests,
and I just couldn't care less.
486
00:27:34,069 --> 00:27:37,823
The details are like something out of
a soap opera that's not very interesting.
487
00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:39,575
He said, "But you work for the Times."
488
00:27:39,741 --> 00:27:42,244
And I said, "No, this is the
first job I've gotten for the Times."
489
00:27:42,411 --> 00:27:44,246
And suddenly, that's much better.
490
00:27:45,539 --> 00:27:49,543
And I asked to take some portraits
of him at home just for me,
491
00:27:49,710 --> 00:27:52,921
- and he said, "Sure."
- What, to do right then and there?
492
00:27:53,088 --> 00:27:54,047
Yeah.
493
00:27:55,132 --> 00:27:57,926
And we walked back to his house
and stopped at a vegetable store
494
00:27:58,093 --> 00:27:59,928
on the corner of Avenue C.
495
00:28:01,847 --> 00:28:05,184
And a car crashed
into the back of a truck.
496
00:28:05,976 --> 00:28:09,646
And it turns out, the story, that the guy
who crashed into the truck
497
00:28:09,813 --> 00:28:11,481
was going the wrong way.
498
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:15,068
He doesn't have a license or anything.
It's probably a stolen car,
499
00:28:15,235 --> 00:28:16,945
and the police took him to jail.
500
00:28:18,614 --> 00:28:21,158
He buys three persimmons.
501
00:28:22,659 --> 00:28:24,411
And he says,
"Have you ever eaten these?"
502
00:28:24,578 --> 00:28:26,580
I say, "Yeah, I don't like the way
they feel in my mouth.
503
00:28:26,747 --> 00:28:28,832
They have that awful chalky feeling."
504
00:28:29,416 --> 00:28:32,711
And he says, "Oh, I just really got into
them only a couple months ago."
505
00:28:34,087 --> 00:28:36,715
Something about vitamin C or something.
506
00:28:36,882 --> 00:28:39,384
And I say, "Have you ever
seen them on a tree?
507
00:28:40,594 --> 00:28:43,347
They're on the tree
after all the leaves fall off."
508
00:28:43,931 --> 00:28:46,725
And he's not listening to this at all.
509
00:28:58,070 --> 00:28:59,947
"Let me go upstairs."
510
00:29:00,113 --> 00:29:02,241
And I say, "Why don't you sit over there?"
511
00:29:03,867 --> 00:29:06,912
And he sits down in a lotus position
and starts chanting.
512
00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:09,081
Oh, he's a compulsive chanter.
513
00:29:09,248 --> 00:29:11,667
Looking with this kind of nowhere look.
514
00:29:11,833 --> 00:29:16,255
He doesn't see me at all.
He's just focused into...
515
00:29:16,421 --> 00:29:17,798
Om-land.
516
00:29:19,091 --> 00:29:21,510
And then I say,
"I don't like that background."
517
00:29:22,386 --> 00:29:23,971
So I move him.
518
00:29:24,137 --> 00:29:26,723
Just to move him,
just against another wall.
519
00:29:29,059 --> 00:29:32,688
And then I say, "Why don't you
pay attention to me?
520
00:29:33,438 --> 00:29:34,648
Check me out."
521
00:29:36,108 --> 00:29:38,777
And he starts to do that,
but then he gets into listing,
522
00:29:38,944 --> 00:29:44,449
like, who really runs the country
and the top 10 corporations and oil.
523
00:29:45,242 --> 00:29:50,247
And then we're interrupted by a call
and it's all talk about William Burroughs.
524
00:29:51,039 --> 00:29:52,582
And I think...
525
00:29:52,749 --> 00:29:54,251
Here's my chance.
526
00:29:54,793 --> 00:29:58,338
I just throw this in,
which I somehow did.
527
00:30:00,424 --> 00:30:03,010
But I find it hard not to be.
528
00:30:04,678 --> 00:30:07,973
It's almost as if I felt
I better show some credentials.
529
00:30:08,765 --> 00:30:12,686
So I said, "I'm photographing him
tomorrow." And he said, "Oh, how come?"
530
00:30:13,603 --> 00:30:16,606
It's almost as if everything I said...
531
00:30:20,110 --> 00:30:21,570
"I met him at lunch."
532
00:30:22,154 --> 00:30:23,447
"Where?"
533
00:30:23,613 --> 00:30:25,115
"Felicity Mason's."
534
00:30:25,282 --> 00:30:26,366
"When?"
535
00:30:27,492 --> 00:30:29,369
- "Three weeks ago."
- What, did he approve?
536
00:30:29,536 --> 00:30:31,913
- No.
- Sounds horrible.
537
00:31:31,723 --> 00:31:33,058
And then he said...
538
00:31:34,476 --> 00:31:37,479
"Oh, you can get
some interesting pictures out of Bill."
539
00:31:39,272 --> 00:31:40,857
And I said, "Oh, really?"
540
00:31:42,234 --> 00:31:44,444
And he said, "Yeah, suck his cock."
541
00:31:47,239 --> 00:31:52,828
And I said, "It would be better
if I brought him a prep school boy."
542
00:31:52,994 --> 00:31:54,913
And he said, "Oh, you could do that.
543
00:31:55,414 --> 00:32:00,210
As Burroughs loves those prep school
waspy boys with the neckties."
544
00:32:01,628 --> 00:32:05,757
I thought it was strange,
out of nowhere.
545
00:32:05,924 --> 00:32:08,176
- What, the sucking the cock?
- Yeah.
546
00:32:09,052 --> 00:32:11,555
It's different from his chanting image.
547
00:32:18,019 --> 00:32:22,858
He took a certain relish
in like, being naughty or something.
548
00:32:23,024 --> 00:32:25,777
Almost felt like
it had an edge of come on.
549
00:32:28,405 --> 00:32:33,118
He said, "You could go to bed with Bill."
550
00:32:34,035 --> 00:32:36,746
And I said, "I don't think
it would be that impossible.
551
00:32:37,789 --> 00:32:40,542
He's not that unattractive."
Which he isn't.
552
00:32:41,918 --> 00:32:44,504
There's something-- He was very friendly.
553
00:32:45,005 --> 00:32:47,549
- He was nice-looking.
- Hm. I like his face.
554
00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:51,803
- It's not repellent.
- No, he's the opposite of Allen.
555
00:32:52,387 --> 00:32:54,681
I mean, like, he'll age very well.
556
00:32:54,848 --> 00:32:57,601
Ginsberg will just be
a fat old Jewish man.
557
00:32:57,767 --> 00:33:00,270
He's always been very ugly.
558
00:33:05,775 --> 00:33:08,278
I forgot what else was said there.
559
00:33:10,655 --> 00:33:12,949
Oh, he said he might come by tomorrow.
560
00:33:14,367 --> 00:33:16,745
'Cause he'd already got more time.
561
00:33:16,912 --> 00:33:18,163
What, at your place?
562
00:33:18,330 --> 00:33:20,332
No, Burroughs. At 3:00.
563
00:33:20,499 --> 00:33:22,792
- Did you tell him not to?
- No.
564
00:33:24,085 --> 00:33:28,632
No, I thought about that, but then
I thought maybe it might be interesting.
565
00:33:30,634 --> 00:33:33,136
Burroughs and Ginsberg
together on a picture.
566
00:33:35,555 --> 00:33:37,307
I'd still get Burroughs.
567
00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:40,477
And then I left.
568
00:33:41,061 --> 00:33:43,730
- Was it a friendly farewell?
- Yeah.
569
00:33:46,274 --> 00:33:48,527
He said he'd like to see the pictures,
570
00:33:49,277 --> 00:33:52,447
to tell him what picture
was used in the Times,
571
00:33:52,614 --> 00:33:56,034
and in the end, he really didn't care
if I used a portrait of him or not.
572
00:33:56,201 --> 00:33:57,536
You won him over.
573
00:33:59,579 --> 00:34:02,165
He said he was just being hard,
574
00:34:03,458 --> 00:34:05,752
and he was trying to protect himself.
575
00:34:09,339 --> 00:34:10,966
And I walked home.
576
00:34:11,967 --> 00:34:13,718
What time is it about?
577
00:34:15,428 --> 00:34:16,721
I don't know.
578
00:34:16,888 --> 00:34:18,265
It's still light.
579
00:34:19,182 --> 00:34:20,559
Maybe 4:00.
580
00:34:24,312 --> 00:34:25,438
Then what?
581
00:34:26,982 --> 00:34:29,192
Then I take out
this Oscar Mayer Braunschweiger.
582
00:34:29,359 --> 00:34:31,778
Oh, I used to love that.
Is it still cheap?
583
00:34:31,945 --> 00:34:35,615
No. It's 89 cents for a little--
It's expensive.
584
00:34:35,782 --> 00:34:39,411
But I was hungry, and I splurged.
585
00:34:39,578 --> 00:34:43,415
I make a sandwich on that Pepperidge Farm,
that delicious bread.
586
00:34:43,582 --> 00:34:46,042
- It's wheat bread, but it's--
- The sprouted wheat?
587
00:34:46,209 --> 00:34:47,419
It's sprouted wheat.
588
00:34:47,586 --> 00:34:49,879
- And I have some Pep-up, that's left.
- What is that?
589
00:34:50,046 --> 00:34:53,174
That's the Adelle Davis drink
with yeast and stuff.
590
00:34:54,593 --> 00:34:59,306
And as soon as I finished that,
which I ate fairly quickly,
591
00:34:59,472 --> 00:35:03,018
I go right into the darkroom,
and I set up for developing film.
592
00:35:03,602 --> 00:35:06,438
And the phone rings,
and it's Steve Pisney,
593
00:35:06,605 --> 00:35:08,648
who is some number
who likes to talk tough.
594
00:35:08,815 --> 00:35:10,734
He used to be in the Marines.
595
00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:12,819
He's actually very sweet.
596
00:35:12,986 --> 00:35:16,615
But he has this whole
comic-book edge to him.
597
00:35:16,781 --> 00:35:21,036
He says, "Hey, man,
I'm really hot tonight.
598
00:35:21,202 --> 00:35:24,122
- I was just jacking off."
- And I say, "Well, I've got people here."
599
00:35:24,289 --> 00:35:26,833
You lie all day long.
600
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,253
- Yeah, I do. It's amazing.
- I don't think you realize half the time.
601
00:35:30,420 --> 00:35:32,714
You do. I know when I lie. I don't know
why I do them,
602
00:35:32,881 --> 00:35:34,507
- but each lie is--
- I wish I could do it more.
603
00:35:34,674 --> 00:35:37,260
You didn't want to talk to him, right?
You wanted to work.
604
00:35:37,427 --> 00:35:40,013
He wanted me to come over
to his house.
605
00:35:41,139 --> 00:35:43,850
I said, "Okay, well, catch you later."
606
00:35:44,017 --> 00:35:46,353
- Yeah. He's not a New Yorker.
- No.
607
00:35:52,734 --> 00:35:54,819
So then I go into the dark room,
608
00:35:55,654 --> 00:35:59,407
and I develop two rolls of film first,
609
00:35:59,574 --> 00:36:01,159
because there are eight altogether.
610
00:36:01,326 --> 00:36:02,952
And this is the Ginsbergs?
611
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:05,163
And that's in the hypo.
612
00:36:05,330 --> 00:36:07,207
And Linda calls.
613
00:36:07,374 --> 00:36:11,211
- And she tells me to write this all out.
- You hadn't written anything before this?
614
00:36:11,378 --> 00:36:13,046
- No.
- Oh, my God.
615
00:36:13,213 --> 00:36:15,340
I said, "I don't know
that I can remember it all."
616
00:36:15,507 --> 00:36:16,758
Turns out...
617
00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:21,721
'Cause I really began to think,
"Well, I didn't do anything."
618
00:36:21,888 --> 00:36:24,182
I photographed Ginsberg,
that woman from Elle.
619
00:36:24,349 --> 00:36:26,309
She came in the morning. That's it.
620
00:36:26,476 --> 00:36:27,811
Isn't it interesting?
621
00:36:27,977 --> 00:36:30,563
It really is.
Because as soon as I started,
622
00:36:30,730 --> 00:36:33,066
- like all this--
- Yes. It's like a whole novel already.
623
00:36:33,233 --> 00:36:34,943
Yeah. All this stuff came.
624
00:36:36,653 --> 00:36:38,905
So I write it all down.
625
00:36:39,072 --> 00:36:43,034
It takes me a bit of time. I thought it
would take a minute, it takes 12 minutes.
626
00:36:43,201 --> 00:36:46,579
Then I go into the dark room,
and I develop
627
00:36:46,746 --> 00:36:51,000
the other eight rolls of film
when Glenn O'Brien calls.
628
00:36:51,835 --> 00:36:54,337
And he says,
"Will you be home at 8:30?"
629
00:36:54,504 --> 00:36:57,173
And I say, "Oh, I don't know.
630
00:36:58,091 --> 00:37:00,760
I'm pretty sure I will be
because I'm at work.
631
00:37:00,927 --> 00:37:04,597
I should work,
but, like, I really don't want to,
632
00:37:04,764 --> 00:37:07,016
I might go out,
I don't want to commit myself right--"
633
00:37:07,183 --> 00:37:09,686
You said this to him
or you just thought about it?
634
00:37:09,853 --> 00:37:11,229
I thought about it.
635
00:37:11,980 --> 00:37:14,357
I don't want to commit myself right now.
636
00:37:14,524 --> 00:37:16,192
And I know I probably will work.
637
00:37:16,359 --> 00:37:17,986
And if I say, "Yes, 8:30..."
638
00:37:18,153 --> 00:37:20,029
Well, he was gonna
call you back at 8:30?
639
00:37:20,196 --> 00:37:23,158
No, he was going to be
down in the neighborhood.
640
00:37:23,324 --> 00:37:27,871
He wants to know if I would give him
the negatives of..
641
00:37:28,913 --> 00:37:32,667
He's starting this rock and roll group
called "the Conelrad."
642
00:37:33,376 --> 00:37:37,005
He can't sing or play an instrument.
None of them can.
643
00:37:37,172 --> 00:37:38,965
Nikki, the guy who did
those anal paintings.
644
00:37:39,132 --> 00:37:42,051
- I was just reading about him today.
- Yeah, he did something Saturday night.
645
00:37:42,218 --> 00:37:44,971
- He's the drummer in this group.
- With his ass?
646
00:37:45,138 --> 00:37:46,723
Yeah, I photographed them.
647
00:37:46,890 --> 00:37:49,350
Because it's almost like
they're doing this hype.
648
00:37:49,517 --> 00:37:52,312
- I don't know if it's half serious.
- Well, does any music come out?
649
00:37:52,479 --> 00:37:55,106
No. They haven't made any music.
650
00:37:56,191 --> 00:37:58,359
Glenn can't sing or play.
651
00:37:58,526 --> 00:37:59,652
And they get publicity.
652
00:37:59,819 --> 00:38:02,822
Like they got Lisa Robinson
from Rock Scene
653
00:38:02,989 --> 00:38:04,741
to do a picture of them.
654
00:38:04,908 --> 00:38:07,243
And Fran Lebowitz to do an interview.
655
00:38:07,786 --> 00:38:09,412
And it's totally made-up.
656
00:38:10,121 --> 00:38:12,999
They're Korean war brats
and they got together in Korea.
657
00:38:13,166 --> 00:38:16,336
- What, they really are?
- Mm-- No, they made up the story.
658
00:38:16,503 --> 00:38:18,338
They talk about it as if it were real.
659
00:38:18,505 --> 00:38:20,715
So I photographed them for Lisa.
660
00:38:21,549 --> 00:38:26,054
And I said, "Yeah, I have
no need for the negatives."
661
00:38:27,263 --> 00:38:30,558
And I hang up the negatives
and Vince calls-- No.
662
00:38:30,725 --> 00:38:33,478
I hang up the negatives
and I take a nap.
663
00:38:33,645 --> 00:38:34,771
- Of course.
- I needed a nap.
664
00:38:34,938 --> 00:38:37,148
- Does it sound like too many?
- What, two naps a day?
665
00:38:37,315 --> 00:38:38,900
- Yeah.
- Yeah.
666
00:38:39,067 --> 00:38:42,153
Well, the first one wasn't a nap.
It was a continuation of my sleep,
667
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:43,822
and I needed an hour more.
668
00:38:46,074 --> 00:38:47,992
And then Vince called.
669
00:38:48,159 --> 00:38:51,287
And he wanted to know
if he could come over
670
00:38:51,454 --> 00:38:54,999
to take a shower at my place,
'cause he had no hot water.
671
00:38:55,166 --> 00:38:58,002
And he was really hoping
that there was someone
672
00:38:58,169 --> 00:39:00,839
that he knew that he could call
to take a shower with.
673
00:39:01,005 --> 00:39:03,591
But he wished that he had some friend,
you know, some trick.
674
00:39:03,758 --> 00:39:06,511
Should've given him the other guy's
number, the one that was hot.
675
00:39:06,678 --> 00:39:08,638
I should have done.
676
00:39:08,805 --> 00:39:12,183
But they wouldn't get along.
Vince wouldn't let him do his number.
677
00:39:12,350 --> 00:39:14,769
Sometimes when I've made it with him,
he calls me "buddy."
678
00:39:14,936 --> 00:39:16,020
Great.
679
00:39:16,187 --> 00:39:17,939
♪ Hold me tight, my baby ♪
680
00:39:18,106 --> 00:39:20,066
♪ Hold me tight tonight ♪
681
00:39:20,233 --> 00:39:22,026
♪ Hold me tight, my baby ♪
682
00:39:22,193 --> 00:39:23,736
♪ Everything's all right ♪
683
00:39:23,903 --> 00:39:25,864
♪ Hold me tight ♪
684
00:39:26,030 --> 00:39:27,490
♪ Hold me tight ♪
685
00:39:28,199 --> 00:39:30,535
♪ I don't care about tomorrow ♪
686
00:39:30,702 --> 00:39:32,412
♪ But hold me tight tonight ♪
687
00:39:33,830 --> 00:39:37,709
♪ Danced all night with Candy
Danced all night with John ♪
688
00:39:37,876 --> 00:39:41,629
♪ Tonight you're out with Jimmy
Come on and let's have fun ♪
689
00:39:41,796 --> 00:39:44,757
♪ Hold me tight, hold me tight ♪
690
00:39:46,301 --> 00:39:48,553
♪ I don't care about tomorrow ♪
691
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:50,305
♪ Hold me tight tonight ♪
692
00:40:08,489 --> 00:40:10,658
♪ Hold me tight, my baby ♪
693
00:40:10,825 --> 00:40:12,660
♪ Hold me tight tonight ♪
694
00:40:12,827 --> 00:40:14,787
♪ Hold me tight, my baby ♪
695
00:40:14,954 --> 00:40:16,414
♪ Everything's all right ♪
696
00:40:16,581 --> 00:40:19,500
♪ Hold me tight, hold me tight ♪
697
00:40:21,044 --> 00:40:23,463
♪ I don't care about tomorrow ♪
698
00:40:23,630 --> 00:40:25,340
♪ Hold me tight tonight ♪
699
00:40:26,382 --> 00:40:28,718
♪ I don't care about tomorrow ♪
700
00:40:28,885 --> 00:40:30,762
♪ Hold me tight tonight ♪
701
00:40:38,353 --> 00:40:40,813
Oh, one of the details
of the Glenn O'Brien conversation
702
00:40:40,980 --> 00:40:45,109
that I forgot was he wrote an article
703
00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:48,529
for Italian Vogue about Bob Wilson,
704
00:40:49,155 --> 00:40:51,199
and they used one of my pictures.
705
00:40:51,366 --> 00:40:54,243
So I said, "Hey Glenn, did you get paid
for that?" And he said, "No."
706
00:40:54,410 --> 00:40:56,120
I said, "I want to get
some money out of them.
707
00:40:56,287 --> 00:40:59,290
Do you have an issue around,
because I want to send them the bill."
708
00:41:00,416 --> 00:41:02,585
'Cause this is like, June-July '74.
709
00:41:02,752 --> 00:41:04,295
Yeah. A picture of what?
710
00:41:04,837 --> 00:41:06,214
Bob Wilson.
711
00:41:06,381 --> 00:41:08,675
- Did you get a credit?
- Yeah.
712
00:41:11,386 --> 00:41:13,513
So Vince says he'll be over
in a few minutes
713
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,598
when he gets his equipment together.
714
00:41:16,265 --> 00:41:17,684
What, for a shower?
715
00:41:17,850 --> 00:41:18,726
Yeah.
716
00:41:18,893 --> 00:41:21,062
- Did he bring his own towel?
- No.
717
00:41:21,229 --> 00:41:22,146
Soap?
718
00:41:22,313 --> 00:41:25,984
Well, he brought his shampoo,
his hair dryer.
719
00:41:26,526 --> 00:41:28,820
Last time he came,
he brought a washcloth.
720
00:41:30,780 --> 00:41:33,908
So I go to the store
and I buy tuna fish, noodles,
721
00:41:34,075 --> 00:41:36,369
Progresso, and yogurt, plain.
722
00:41:36,536 --> 00:41:40,748
And I come back up, I do 27 push-ups,
and then I turn the television on.
723
00:41:40,915 --> 00:41:43,001
The evening's entertainment commences.
724
00:41:43,167 --> 00:41:46,713
Then I decide to cook.
But then I think, "Oh, Vince."
725
00:41:47,422 --> 00:41:49,799
Because it had been my plan
before he called.
726
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,927
So I think maybe I'll ask him
if he wants to eat.
727
00:41:53,094 --> 00:41:57,015
So he arrives and I ask. I say, "I'm not
gonna put any vegetables in or anything.
728
00:41:57,181 --> 00:42:00,268
I just don't feel like even frying
an onion, but I'll just whip that up."
729
00:42:00,435 --> 00:42:03,438
And he said, "Oh, I thought that we could
send out for Chinese food.
730
00:42:04,105 --> 00:42:05,398
I'll treat."
731
00:42:05,565 --> 00:42:06,941
So I said, "Terrific."
732
00:42:07,108 --> 00:42:09,277
Yeah, save the tuna for another day.
733
00:42:09,444 --> 00:42:13,489
So he's in the shower,
and he says, "I'll go down soon."
734
00:42:13,656 --> 00:42:15,324
And I think it's silly to wait here
735
00:42:15,491 --> 00:42:19,454
while he's washing and drying himself
to go get the food.
736
00:42:48,566 --> 00:42:50,943
So I go down
while he's still in the shower.
737
00:42:51,110 --> 00:42:52,653
And then what do I do?
738
00:42:53,780 --> 00:42:57,492
Then I went to the Chinese restaurant
and ordered the stuff.
739
00:42:57,658 --> 00:43:00,078
I go to the Chinese
and there's a guy there.
740
00:43:00,244 --> 00:43:03,539
- Mmm.
- Who looks sort of fat.
741
00:43:03,706 --> 00:43:05,833
But he has a very nice face.
742
00:43:06,501 --> 00:43:09,212
There's something sort
of lonely and strange.
743
00:43:11,422 --> 00:43:13,883
He seems very much
like an unmarried man.
744
00:43:14,967 --> 00:43:16,969
Straight, 35.
745
00:43:17,553 --> 00:43:21,265
And he takes one of the Mountain--
Jade Mountain card, the calling cards.
746
00:43:21,432 --> 00:43:22,517
Mm-hm.
747
00:43:22,683 --> 00:43:26,354
And he takes out a felt-tip pen
and he starts to draw on it.
748
00:43:26,521 --> 00:43:29,607
- He makes these sort of squares.
- Is he waiting for an order?
749
00:43:29,774 --> 00:43:31,109
Yeah.
750
00:43:31,275 --> 00:43:34,237
- Yeah, which was chicken chow mein.
- Oh, good luck.
751
00:43:34,403 --> 00:43:37,115
And the waiter comes out
and says, "Your order's ready."
752
00:43:37,281 --> 00:43:40,535
And he sort of nods
and then continues drawing.
753
00:43:40,701 --> 00:43:43,704
And enough time has passed
and he's still drawing these boxes.
754
00:43:43,871 --> 00:43:46,958
- Was this on the little tiny card?
- Yeah, and he's really into it.
755
00:43:48,417 --> 00:43:51,671
And then the waiter stands there
sort of perplexed.
756
00:43:51,838 --> 00:43:54,382
And then he walks back
over to him, and he says,
757
00:43:54,549 --> 00:43:57,051
"Your order's ready." And he says, "Oh."
758
00:43:58,261 --> 00:44:02,181
And it came to $3.45.
759
00:44:02,348 --> 00:44:04,016
For chicken chow mein?
760
00:44:04,183 --> 00:44:06,269
For his stuff. And then he leaves.
761
00:44:06,435 --> 00:44:09,730
Mine is-- Takes a few more minutes,
and it's $7.30.
762
00:44:09,897 --> 00:44:13,943
- It's 7.30, but you only had seven.
- Seven fort-- 7.43.
763
00:44:14,110 --> 00:44:17,113
- Yeah, but you only had seven.
- I had seven, and I paid the difference.
764
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,866
Big spender. And also,
I had to get Vince a Coke.
765
00:44:20,032 --> 00:44:22,785
- So I go to the store, the Greek place.
- Hm.
766
00:44:22,952 --> 00:44:26,289
I get the Coke.
It's 32 ounces, which is 65 cents.
767
00:44:26,455 --> 00:44:29,375
And I go back up. And he's dressed
and he's drying his hair.
768
00:44:29,542 --> 00:44:34,297
Oh, the guy, the Chinese-- The guy from
the Chinese restaurant, the artist.
769
00:44:34,463 --> 00:44:35,798
Mm-hm.
770
00:44:35,965 --> 00:44:37,717
He bought something in that store.
771
00:44:37,884 --> 00:44:39,468
I don't know what,
but he bought something.
772
00:44:39,635 --> 00:44:41,304
- In the Greek store?
- In the Greek store.
773
00:44:41,470 --> 00:44:44,974
And he asked for the slip, and
he didn't pay for it in the Greek store.
774
00:44:45,141 --> 00:44:49,478
He just took the sales receipt,
and he wrote Schmidt on the back of it.
775
00:44:50,605 --> 00:44:54,275
And, and he's--
Without saying a word, he left.
776
00:44:54,442 --> 00:44:56,819
Well, you should try that sometime.
That's a good trick.
777
00:44:56,986 --> 00:45:00,573
I bet it would work up in this
neighborhood, up in Yorkville.
778
00:45:00,740 --> 00:45:04,327
So I come back up,
and I open the containers.
779
00:45:04,493 --> 00:45:06,996
And I get out the plates,
and we sit down, and we eat.
780
00:45:07,163 --> 00:45:09,123
I have the sweet and sour,
and Vince has--
781
00:45:09,290 --> 00:45:10,875
You don't share?
782
00:45:11,042 --> 00:45:13,878
A little bit, but mostly
I don't really like moo goo gai pan.
783
00:45:14,045 --> 00:45:16,172
Vince didn't eat much of it.
I ate all of mine.
784
00:45:16,339 --> 00:45:18,341
And there wasn't enough rice.
785
00:45:18,507 --> 00:45:20,551
Then I said, "Why don't you take
the Coke home?
786
00:45:20,718 --> 00:45:23,596
Because I still have the last one,
it's flat since you were here."
787
00:45:23,763 --> 00:45:24,847
He lives on Coke.
788
00:45:25,014 --> 00:45:27,016
Yeah, that's why his skin is so great.
789
00:45:28,643 --> 00:45:30,186
He does not eat good, Vincent.
790
00:45:30,978 --> 00:45:32,730
He really loves junk food.
791
00:45:32,897 --> 00:45:34,565
We were out one night with Fran Lebowitz
792
00:45:34,732 --> 00:45:37,860
and Craig Karpel,
going to an Italian restaurant.
793
00:45:38,027 --> 00:45:39,862
And Vincent insisted
on getting out the car,
794
00:45:40,029 --> 00:45:41,948
so that he could go to McDonald's.
795
00:45:42,114 --> 00:45:44,992
And he said that he would meet us there
at the restaurant for coffee.
796
00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:46,827
Well, that's crazy.
797
00:45:47,620 --> 00:45:49,747
Maybe it's because
he grew up on Italian food.
798
00:45:49,914 --> 00:45:51,582
No, but I mean,
when you're with people.
799
00:45:51,749 --> 00:45:53,542
He had to have McDonald's.
800
00:45:53,709 --> 00:45:55,628
Yeah, get a fix.
801
00:46:02,218 --> 00:46:04,303
I can't remember
what we talked about.
802
00:46:05,513 --> 00:46:07,473
I told him about Allen Ginsberg.
803
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,476
Oh, I read him the beginning
of this list.
804
00:46:11,185 --> 00:46:12,645
I said, "It's amazing."
805
00:46:12,812 --> 00:46:16,649
I had the feeling that I'd done nothing
but gotten up,
806
00:46:17,441 --> 00:46:20,945
photographed Allen Ginsberg,
developed the film, and that was it.
807
00:46:21,737 --> 00:46:26,617
I often have a feeling that in my day,
nothing much happens, that I've wasted it.
808
00:46:26,784 --> 00:46:27,994
Well, now you know.
809
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:29,829
I've wasted another day.
810
00:46:30,538 --> 00:46:33,082
All I did is I spent
two hours with Ginsberg.
811
00:46:33,249 --> 00:46:34,542
This takes a day.
812
00:46:35,543 --> 00:46:37,753
That's why I'm doing this, actually.
813
00:46:38,254 --> 00:46:41,090
To find out how people
fill up their days.
814
00:46:41,257 --> 00:46:45,928
Because I myself feel like
I don't do much of anything all day.
815
00:46:46,846 --> 00:46:49,557
- You should do it.
- I'm going to.
816
00:46:50,308 --> 00:46:51,892
Anyway, there's a knock at the door,
817
00:46:52,059 --> 00:46:55,313
and it's Glenn O'Brien wearing one
of those coats like Joseph used to wear
818
00:46:55,479 --> 00:46:56,856
with the fur collar, beige, gray.
819
00:46:57,023 --> 00:46:59,734
- What, a storm coat? Mm-hm. Like suburban.
- With the belt, yeah.
820
00:46:59,900 --> 00:47:02,278
And he comes in
and he doesn't take it off,
821
00:47:02,445 --> 00:47:04,989
and he says,
"I'm going to jam with Bruce."
822
00:47:05,156 --> 00:47:07,491
And I say,
"Oh, come on. How do you jam?
823
00:47:07,658 --> 00:47:09,869
What do you do?
You don't play an instrument."
824
00:47:10,036 --> 00:47:13,873
And he says, "We listen to records,
and we say we want to do it like that."
825
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:16,625
And I say, "You should get
Topaz Caucasian for your band."
826
00:47:16,792 --> 00:47:18,461
Well, she doesn't play anything either.
827
00:47:18,627 --> 00:47:22,048
She-- Oh, she plays the trumpet,
but she doesn't exist. She's fictitious.
828
00:47:22,631 --> 00:47:26,344
She's a woman that was made up
by Pat Costello.
829
00:47:26,927 --> 00:47:31,015
Part of Wartoke Music Publicity Group.
830
00:47:31,182 --> 00:47:33,184
They do the publicity for Stevie Wonder.
831
00:47:33,351 --> 00:47:36,479
They took me on tour with Rod Stewart.
832
00:47:37,521 --> 00:47:41,692
And they drop out the name occasionally,
Topaz Caucasian.
833
00:47:41,859 --> 00:47:44,820
She was at Miami Pop Festival
or whatever it was,
834
00:47:44,987 --> 00:47:47,615
Newport Festival,
or she made a brief appearance
835
00:47:47,782 --> 00:47:50,701
on stage with Miles Davis,
and they put this in the paper.
836
00:47:52,453 --> 00:47:56,832
Topaz Caucasian is supposed to be
a 6-foot, red-haired mulatto,
837
00:47:56,999 --> 00:47:59,418
and she actually got into all the papers.
838
00:47:59,585 --> 00:48:02,588
I'd be with people who would swear
they had seen Topaz Caucasian.
839
00:48:02,755 --> 00:48:05,049
Wait. How did you know
that she was made up?
840
00:48:06,884 --> 00:48:09,553
- Because I was there when she was made up.
- Oh.
841
00:48:10,179 --> 00:48:12,556
Did Glenn O'Brien
know she was made up?
842
00:48:13,349 --> 00:48:15,851
No, I told him the story of Topaz,
that she was made up,
843
00:48:16,018 --> 00:48:18,229
and I said that she could be
just perfect to say
844
00:48:18,396 --> 00:48:21,649
that you're considering Topaz Caucasian,
and he said, "Yeah."
845
00:48:22,274 --> 00:48:25,236
He knew about Topaz.
He said that, "if someone dared come out
846
00:48:25,403 --> 00:48:29,865
and say, 'I am Topaz Caucasian,'
that they could be heard,"
847
00:48:30,032 --> 00:48:33,077
that they could make a record,
at least cut a demo.
848
00:48:33,244 --> 00:48:35,663
Because people were saying,
"Who is she? Who's she with?"
849
00:48:35,830 --> 00:48:37,957
There's something
like they're doing it real.
850
00:48:38,124 --> 00:48:40,251
I think that they might
start collecting musicians.
851
00:48:40,418 --> 00:48:43,379
- They just might.
- I have a feeling Suzi Quatro did that.
852
00:48:47,049 --> 00:48:48,884
Well, now what happens?
853
00:48:49,051 --> 00:48:52,096
Glenn's there,
stays for about 10 minutes,
854
00:48:52,263 --> 00:48:54,473
and then he leaves,
so it's just me and Vince.
855
00:48:55,099 --> 00:48:57,726
And I say I have to go back to work,
856
00:48:58,352 --> 00:49:00,438
and Glenn says he's going to go home.
857
00:49:02,815 --> 00:49:06,318
I mentioned your book during this thing,
858
00:49:06,902 --> 00:49:10,239
and they're like, "Patrick says
it would be great to have a sofa."
859
00:49:10,990 --> 00:49:13,701
And I say,
"It would really change my life."
860
00:49:14,410 --> 00:49:18,414
And we discussed this during the dinner,
the make-out possibilities
861
00:49:18,998 --> 00:49:20,332
and how difficult--
862
00:49:20,499 --> 00:49:24,795
You know, in his apartment,
he has a bed and straight chairs,
863
00:49:24,962 --> 00:49:27,423
so they either have to go
to the bedroom
864
00:49:27,590 --> 00:49:29,925
and watch the television, do it that way.
865
00:49:30,092 --> 00:49:32,970
Or if they get on the bed,
he keeps the bed in the living room...
866
00:49:34,180 --> 00:49:37,433
And he keeps all these magazines
and letters, he has to move all these.
867
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,810
Yeah. Well, a couch,
a couch would be in between.
868
00:49:39,977 --> 00:49:42,271
You can do it on the couch.
You can sleep on the couch.
869
00:49:42,438 --> 00:49:44,190
You can stretch out
and read on the couch.
870
00:49:44,356 --> 00:49:46,066
It's really a rather wonderful thing.
871
00:49:46,233 --> 00:49:48,360
And one day, it'll be yours.
872
00:49:50,738 --> 00:49:55,784
Okay, so Vincent leaves,
and I go back to the dark room.
873
00:49:56,869 --> 00:49:58,579
This is about 10:00?
874
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,417
Probably somewhere there,
not watching the clock.
875
00:50:04,210 --> 00:50:10,174
And I think about making
the restaurant enlargements.
876
00:50:11,342 --> 00:50:14,553
The restaurant job I did,
the interior of the restaurant.
877
00:50:15,137 --> 00:50:16,931
I just hate printing it.
878
00:50:17,723 --> 00:50:20,351
He orders, like, 14 different prints.
879
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:26,023
And the contacts are in the dryer already,
of Ginsberg.
880
00:50:26,190 --> 00:50:27,650
What's your reaction?
881
00:50:30,778 --> 00:50:32,988
There's very little there.
882
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:36,951
There's no contact.
883
00:50:37,618 --> 00:50:38,744
Hm.
884
00:50:40,454 --> 00:50:42,831
So then I make the restaurant pictures,
885
00:50:43,916 --> 00:50:47,503
and when I'm looking at them,
I was really exhausted.
886
00:50:48,671 --> 00:50:50,798
I just wanted to go to bed again.
887
00:50:52,591 --> 00:50:54,635
But when I start working,
I kind of wake up.
888
00:50:54,802 --> 00:50:56,845
Did you have lunch?
889
00:50:57,012 --> 00:50:58,681
I had the liverwurst sandwich.
890
00:50:58,847 --> 00:51:00,849
Hm. I think you're malnourished.
891
00:51:01,016 --> 00:51:02,768
Do you eat enough vegetables?
892
00:51:03,727 --> 00:51:05,813
Sometimes, but like yesterday,
that's all I had.
893
00:51:05,980 --> 00:51:07,940
Well, that is not enough.
Not for a big man.
894
00:51:08,107 --> 00:51:10,150
- Really.
- I guess not.
895
00:51:10,317 --> 00:51:13,070
- That is why you're tired.
- I'm not that tired.
896
00:51:13,237 --> 00:51:16,448
It's just certain things,
like Allen Ginsberg got me tired.
897
00:51:21,996 --> 00:51:27,042
So I make the blow-up
of the restaurant,
898
00:51:27,209 --> 00:51:29,962
and after I've made half a dozen,
899
00:51:30,129 --> 00:51:32,506
I realize this is quite
an incredibly good job.
900
00:51:32,673 --> 00:51:34,925
It looks very professional.
901
00:51:35,092 --> 00:51:39,763
And I got all these pictures
of one restaurant,
902
00:51:39,930 --> 00:51:42,308
portrait of the owner for $450.
903
00:51:42,474 --> 00:51:44,810
That's really a steal, a good price.
904
00:51:45,811 --> 00:51:48,647
I thought, "It's too much,"
because I was there a couple of hours
905
00:51:48,814 --> 00:51:50,149
and I did these pictures.
906
00:51:50,858 --> 00:51:52,735
And it looks just like the place.
907
00:51:53,736 --> 00:51:56,739
And Fran calls, and I say, "I'm at work."
908
00:51:56,905 --> 00:51:59,992
And she says, "Okay, go back to work.
I'll talk to you tomorrow."
909
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:02,036
And she says goodbye.
910
00:52:02,620 --> 00:52:05,456
And I finish up the restaurant things,
and I wash them,
911
00:52:05,623 --> 00:52:07,666
and I realize,
I better not soak them overnight,
912
00:52:07,833 --> 00:52:11,629
because that polycontrast paper
starts to peel at the edges,
913
00:52:11,795 --> 00:52:14,548
and I want it to look
very presentable and neat...
914
00:52:15,549 --> 00:52:20,888
to get my money
so I wash them... and the heat is off.
915
00:52:21,055 --> 00:52:23,974
The heat had gone off about 7:30
when Vince was taking a shower.
916
00:52:24,141 --> 00:52:25,517
It's getting very cold.
917
00:52:25,684 --> 00:52:27,353
Does this happen every night?
918
00:52:28,729 --> 00:52:30,564
It's very peculiar.
919
00:52:30,731 --> 00:52:34,693
The night before, it had been on
all night long. It was so hot.
920
00:52:37,154 --> 00:52:39,907
It was on until 7:00
and it was off until 2:00.
921
00:52:41,033 --> 00:52:44,286
It's on some kind of automatic thing.
It's very weird.
922
00:52:45,454 --> 00:52:47,289
But I knew it was okay to leave the prints
923
00:52:47,456 --> 00:52:49,917
to dry out in the air
because if it was cold,
924
00:52:50,084 --> 00:52:51,877
I could leave them out overnight,
925
00:52:52,044 --> 00:52:54,588
and they would dry slower and flatter.
926
00:52:55,464 --> 00:52:58,092
And then I remembered
that I have to go to Tina tomorrow,
927
00:52:58,258 --> 00:53:00,844
and I have to bring her
the Janet Flanner pictures.
928
00:53:01,011 --> 00:53:03,138
She's buying two to trade for sessions.
929
00:53:03,722 --> 00:53:06,600
So I pick out two
that are kind of matched,
930
00:53:06,767 --> 00:53:10,104
and I realized that
the print that I had made,
931
00:53:10,270 --> 00:53:15,192
the one that you have,
was really so much better.
932
00:53:15,359 --> 00:53:17,486
And I hadn't really seen that before.
933
00:53:19,613 --> 00:53:23,242
Felicity said, "I want that print today.
These people are here for this party."
934
00:53:23,409 --> 00:53:26,745
"I'd been doing something all morning,
so I got home at 3:00," and I said,
935
00:53:26,912 --> 00:53:29,957
"Well, I can make it in an hour,
and if you give me 50 bucks for it,"
936
00:53:30,124 --> 00:53:32,292
I might as well
make the ones for Tina, too.
937
00:53:32,459 --> 00:53:34,253
And I thought that they were good.
938
00:53:34,420 --> 00:53:39,633
But I realize that to do good work,
I have to, like, have the time
939
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:42,928
to really look at it,
really see what I'm doing.
940
00:53:47,558 --> 00:53:49,768
Sometimes I just stand
and stare at it,
941
00:53:49,935 --> 00:53:52,229
and it's even rather pleasurable.
942
00:53:53,397 --> 00:53:57,276
It really takes time to get to know it.
943
00:53:59,737 --> 00:54:01,655
That almost sounds corny.
944
00:54:30,684 --> 00:54:34,980
Anyway, I hadn't realized till then
that they were really ordinary prints.
945
00:54:37,065 --> 00:54:39,485
They were good, but they were ordinary.
946
00:54:41,153 --> 00:54:44,948
Like, that one had those
really strange whites, black.
947
00:54:47,034 --> 00:54:48,744
So I signed them.
948
00:54:50,162 --> 00:54:55,209
My pen wasn't writing good,
so the P in Peter was just looking awful.
949
00:54:58,587 --> 00:55:04,218
So once you put pen and India ink on
the face of a print, it just looked puny.
950
00:55:05,219 --> 00:55:07,679
I thought, "I can't get
too tight with the E-T-E-R,
951
00:55:07,846 --> 00:55:10,432
but at least I can keep it
in the same scale
952
00:55:10,599 --> 00:55:14,311
but give it some zip because it becomes
like part of the image."
953
00:55:15,771 --> 00:55:18,982
And the pen just wouldn't write boldly.
It wanted to go slow.
954
00:55:22,319 --> 00:55:26,240
So anyway, I signed them,
and I thought, "Oh, well."
955
00:55:29,827 --> 00:55:33,372
Oh, before that, there were
two little spots that I took out.
956
00:55:33,539 --> 00:55:35,123
I spotted the print...
957
00:55:36,416 --> 00:55:38,585
Then I went through my photographs
958
00:55:39,336 --> 00:55:41,839
to try and find the picture
of Frank Lima's daughter
959
00:55:42,005 --> 00:55:44,383
for Tina, who likes it.
960
00:55:46,093 --> 00:55:48,720
I couldn't remember
whether I had it printed,
961
00:55:48,887 --> 00:55:52,850
but I knew there was one mounted one,
so I found the mounted one.
962
00:55:54,601 --> 00:55:58,188
And it was peeling off the cardboard,
963
00:55:58,355 --> 00:56:00,607
the mounting paste was coming loose.
964
00:56:01,358 --> 00:56:04,820
So I thought, "I'll try ironing it back,
see if it sticks."
965
00:56:06,947 --> 00:56:10,117
So I went and got the iron.
This is now like 2:30.
966
00:56:10,826 --> 00:56:13,704
And I got a sheet of paper
and I pressed it down.
967
00:56:13,871 --> 00:56:16,248
And I got it all back on the mount.
968
00:56:17,583 --> 00:56:19,751
And I thought, "The edges
are a little bit messy,
969
00:56:19,918 --> 00:56:23,046
but I can say,
'Oh, but it's the original print."'
970
00:56:23,213 --> 00:56:26,592
I mean, it was still nice, but the edges
were a little bit, you know.
971
00:56:27,759 --> 00:56:31,096
I never thought--
I usually like things to be very crisp.
972
00:56:32,556 --> 00:56:35,434
I somehow thought it was funny
even to have that thought.
973
00:56:36,476 --> 00:56:38,020
This is the original.
974
00:56:38,896 --> 00:56:42,316
- And you never had that thought before?
- I don't know whether it's good or not.
975
00:56:42,858 --> 00:56:44,526
- It's not bad.
- I know.
976
00:56:44,693 --> 00:56:47,237
It's like getting caught in--
977
00:56:47,404 --> 00:56:50,240
Oh, you wouldn't let yourself
get caught into it too much.
978
00:56:51,158 --> 00:56:53,827
As a look, I like it to be neat.
979
00:56:56,204 --> 00:56:58,415
There's something
that bothers me about it.
980
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,277
So I unplugged the iron.
981
00:57:30,072 --> 00:57:32,449
And I noticed a few little spots.
982
00:57:32,616 --> 00:57:34,409
And there was one spot
983
00:57:34,576 --> 00:57:37,913
that I really was amazed
that I had gone around the print.
984
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:39,748
And there was like a hair mark.
985
00:57:42,876 --> 00:57:44,544
I used to be really good at spotting.
986
00:57:44,711 --> 00:57:47,214
- Now I find I can't see as good.
- Really?
987
00:57:49,841 --> 00:57:52,427
Up close,
is that far or near-sighted?
988
00:57:52,594 --> 00:57:55,555
Far-sighted. I find that I have
to look at things like this.
989
00:57:55,722 --> 00:57:57,432
Yeah, me too.
990
00:57:58,934 --> 00:58:01,687
And with spotting,
which I used to love to do,
991
00:58:01,853 --> 00:58:05,232
like see these tiny little spots
and with the brush,
992
00:58:05,399 --> 00:58:09,152
to be able to put these pinpoints
of dye on it, I could do it for hours.
993
00:58:10,904 --> 00:58:13,281
It was very satisfying.
I was very good at it.
994
00:58:14,116 --> 00:58:17,577
Now it's like
a physical unpleasantness.
995
00:58:19,204 --> 00:58:23,500
Not that it hurts, but... it's not right.
996
00:58:25,544 --> 00:58:28,171
I can't see it. All the pleasure is gone.
997
00:58:28,338 --> 00:58:32,009
- Well, when you get your glasses.
- It's just-- I have to get glasses. Yeah.
998
00:58:32,843 --> 00:58:34,761
Do you need them for distance?
999
00:58:34,928 --> 00:58:35,887
No.
1000
00:58:36,763 --> 00:58:38,306
Just up close.
1001
00:58:38,473 --> 00:58:42,144
When I first noticed
that I was getting far-sighted
1002
00:58:42,811 --> 00:58:46,815
was when Maurice Hogenboom,
who was a Dutch photographer,
1003
00:58:46,982 --> 00:58:48,692
living with Caterin Milinaire,
1004
00:58:49,526 --> 00:58:50,986
came over to my house.
1005
00:58:52,112 --> 00:58:53,822
I went to Phoebe's.
1006
00:58:55,741 --> 00:58:58,869
And he showed me a picture of himself.
He's quite beautiful.
1007
00:58:59,619 --> 00:59:01,413
He pulled out this picture.
1008
00:59:01,580 --> 00:59:03,081
He said, "Look at this."
1009
00:59:03,248 --> 00:59:06,585
And he put it about a foot away
from my face.
1010
00:59:07,836 --> 00:59:09,546
I mean, not too close.
1011
00:59:11,089 --> 00:59:12,591
And I had to back off.
1012
00:59:12,758 --> 00:59:13,842
It was annoying.
1013
00:59:14,551 --> 00:59:17,304
I had to take it in my hand and put it
out there and say, "Oh."
1014
00:59:20,515 --> 00:59:22,976
That was when I realized, it's strange.
1015
00:59:23,143 --> 00:59:25,145
I used to be able to look
at things that close.
1016
00:59:25,312 --> 00:59:28,273
Didn't you think we'd just be exempt
from all these things?
1017
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:29,524
I never gave it a thought.
1018
00:59:29,691 --> 00:59:32,694
Yeah, I never thought
these things would happen.
1019
00:59:32,861 --> 00:59:36,156
In a way-I mean, yes. I had that feeling
none of those old-age things...
1020
00:59:36,323 --> 00:59:39,618
Arthritis, bursitis, rheumatism.
1021
00:59:39,785 --> 00:59:42,954
- Hon!
- No, I've got bursitis.
1022
00:59:45,207 --> 00:59:47,542
That was the last time
I saw Maurice Hogenboom.
1023
00:59:47,709 --> 00:59:51,463
He didn't want anything
to do with you, old guys.
1024
00:59:51,630 --> 00:59:54,966
No. No. He went to Brazil,
and he was photographing,
1025
00:59:55,133 --> 00:59:57,344
and he stepped backwards off a cliff.
1026
00:59:58,428 --> 01:00:01,723
There were some thousands of feet.
1027
01:00:07,104 --> 01:00:09,481
See what happens when you step back.
1028
01:00:12,943 --> 01:00:14,736
All hangs together.
1029
01:00:23,954 --> 01:00:27,165
- So, you were spotting.
- I was spotting, yeah.
1030
01:00:28,667 --> 01:00:31,044
And then I got
an envelope and a cardboard.
1031
01:00:31,670 --> 01:00:33,880
I didn't have a cardboard. I did.
1032
01:00:34,047 --> 01:00:35,507
But I didn't want to use it.
1033
01:00:35,674 --> 01:00:38,969
So I used a mounted print instead, 'cause
I'm getting really low on cardboard.
1034
01:00:39,136 --> 01:00:42,139
And I put it by the front door,
so that I wouldn't forget it.
1035
01:00:43,265 --> 01:00:46,852
And the contacts that I dried
in the electric dryer were already dry.
1036
01:00:49,020 --> 01:00:50,814
So I looked through this first good look
1037
01:00:50,981 --> 01:00:54,317
through my viewer,
so I could really see the face,
1038
01:00:54,484 --> 01:00:56,027
and they were not good.
1039
01:00:56,194 --> 01:00:57,904
Were they good enough
for the Times?
1040
01:00:58,071 --> 01:01:00,574
Probably. But he gave out nothing.
1041
01:01:00,740 --> 01:01:02,450
It's not that he didn't give out.
1042
01:01:03,243 --> 01:01:04,536
It's that we didn't connect.
1043
01:01:04,703 --> 01:01:06,288
He was so hostile though.
1044
01:01:06,997 --> 01:01:09,666
Yeah, it does reflect
in a way on me somehow.
1045
01:01:09,833 --> 01:01:12,419
No, he-- He certainly made it
difficult though.
1046
01:01:13,420 --> 01:01:15,714
Yeah, but like
had he been attracted to me.
1047
01:01:16,923 --> 01:01:20,218
Because men often take
very different pictures
1048
01:01:20,385 --> 01:01:22,596
from women of each other,
because I've seen pictures
1049
01:01:22,762 --> 01:01:24,472
of men that women have taken.
1050
01:01:24,639 --> 01:01:27,309
They're sometimes so charming
and such a come on.
1051
01:01:27,475 --> 01:01:31,021
Like some of Shayla's pictures of men
are just wonderful and touching.
1052
01:01:31,813 --> 01:01:34,983
Like there she is, this beautiful woman
out there on the streets,
1053
01:01:35,150 --> 01:01:38,945
and she aims her camera
at a construction worker.
1054
01:01:39,112 --> 01:01:41,865
I'm getting off track. I can't
even remember what the track was.
1055
01:01:42,032 --> 01:01:44,117
You were-- You were looking
at the Ginsberg.
1056
01:01:44,284 --> 01:01:47,871
Yeah. And it really didn't have much.
1057
01:01:48,038 --> 01:01:50,081
Actually, I hated it the first look.
1058
01:01:50,248 --> 01:01:52,250
Second look, I thought,
"Well, it's possible.
1059
01:01:52,417 --> 01:01:54,044
I mean, it's not uninteresting."
1060
01:01:58,131 --> 01:02:01,259
But I did think in my snobby way
it would be great to have
1061
01:02:01,426 --> 01:02:05,347
Ginsberg and Burroughs
in a book, in my book.
1062
01:02:08,308 --> 01:02:12,646
Like when Susan said,
only for her friends,
1063
01:02:12,812 --> 01:02:16,858
I was thinking, "Would Susan Sontag
write an introduction to my book?
1064
01:02:17,025 --> 01:02:20,028
Or should I have Vince Aletti write it?
Or Frank could write something funny."
1065
01:02:20,195 --> 01:02:23,156
The publisher would probably
have something to say about that anyhow.
1066
01:02:23,323 --> 01:02:25,784
Oh, he'd probably love it.
She'd probably help sell books.
1067
01:02:25,951 --> 01:02:29,829
I mean, wouldn't you be more likely
to pick up a photography book if--?
1068
01:02:29,996 --> 01:02:33,333
I mean, I'm sure it would help sales
than by Vince Aletti.
1069
01:02:33,500 --> 01:02:36,002
I would really love
to make money off of it.
1070
01:02:36,169 --> 01:02:38,088
Also have it get around.
1071
01:02:42,509 --> 01:02:44,844
You know, I've always had a star thing.
1072
01:02:45,387 --> 01:02:48,390
Wanting to be
some kind of a star or a star.
1073
01:02:49,015 --> 01:02:52,602
I would like my work
to stand above that.
1074
01:02:54,187 --> 01:02:57,857
I would like my work
to stand about that.
1075
01:02:58,024 --> 01:03:01,736
That my work could stand so all by itself
without a single star in it.
1076
01:03:01,903 --> 01:03:03,196
Well, it could.
1077
01:03:04,489 --> 01:03:08,535
I mean, I find the star thing
very superfluous.
1078
01:03:09,369 --> 01:03:12,747
But they're not your everyday stars.
1079
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,085
- Like to me, those were stars in the show.
- Hm.
1080
01:03:17,252 --> 01:03:19,713
- It's a different thing.
- These people are very accessible.
1081
01:03:19,879 --> 01:03:23,633
Like Joan Crawford.
It's like the same thing.
1082
01:03:24,342 --> 01:03:26,761
Like-- Like Joan Crawford.
1083
01:03:26,928 --> 01:03:29,639
I mean, wouldn't you go out of your way
to see Joan Crawford?
1084
01:03:29,806 --> 01:03:31,766
She's not one
that interests me that much.
1085
01:03:31,933 --> 01:03:35,145
If she was around the corner,
you would see her.
1086
01:03:35,312 --> 01:03:38,231
No, I'm telling you,
I'm very blasé about stars.
1087
01:03:38,398 --> 01:03:42,193
- What about an evening with Joan Crawford?
- I think it would be gigantically boring.
1088
01:03:43,778 --> 01:03:46,323
You're probably right.
I'd still be very curious.
1089
01:03:46,489 --> 01:03:48,825
Yeah, I'd rather meet Bette Davis.
1090
01:03:50,243 --> 01:03:52,620
There are other people--
I just picked Joan Crawford
1091
01:03:52,787 --> 01:03:55,498
because Vince showed me a book
1092
01:03:55,665 --> 01:03:57,292
and on the cover there was a scene
1093
01:03:57,459 --> 01:04:01,713
from, I think it was King Kong
in New York, some movie.
1094
01:04:02,380 --> 01:04:05,967
Where New York floods,
and you see these big waves
1095
01:04:06,134 --> 01:04:09,262
coming down the street
and it was Herald Square with Crawford.
1096
01:04:10,638 --> 01:04:12,140
Mm.
1097
01:04:40,543 --> 01:04:41,795
Where was I?
1098
01:04:44,172 --> 01:04:47,926
I put them in the envelope
over by the door...
1099
01:04:50,345 --> 01:04:54,557
and I look at the Ginsbergs
and I don't like them.
1100
01:04:56,935 --> 01:05:01,272
But I said, "Well, there are one or two
that aren't really that bad.
1101
01:05:01,439 --> 01:05:05,944
And I'm sure if I really
print it incredibly..."
1102
01:05:10,657 --> 01:05:12,242
Printing can sometimes...
1103
01:05:14,577 --> 01:05:16,287
What? Bring out things?
1104
01:05:17,622 --> 01:05:18,873
Yeah.
1105
01:05:25,255 --> 01:05:28,174
I mean, even in the quality of the face.
1106
01:05:33,221 --> 01:05:37,350
Like in one print the person
looks completely different.
1107
01:05:40,645 --> 01:05:45,733
It's like adding something
or... forcing something to happen.
1108
01:05:47,068 --> 01:05:48,736
Which is interesting.
1109
01:05:58,329 --> 01:06:02,250
Then I started to write down
my last notes of this.
1110
01:06:07,380 --> 01:06:09,132
And say, "I'm going to bed."
1111
01:06:11,968 --> 01:06:15,388
But then I got up once I'd done that,
1112
01:06:15,555 --> 01:06:19,434
and I went and sat at the harpsichord,
1113
01:06:21,853 --> 01:06:24,814
and I run through part
of the Bach thing that I know.
1114
01:06:28,693 --> 01:06:34,699
And make a few mistakes,
but... I do it over
1115
01:06:34,866 --> 01:06:37,327
until I play it nicely and it sounds good.
1116
01:06:43,875 --> 01:06:45,793
And I turn out the lights.
1117
01:06:47,504 --> 01:06:49,797
And first I set the clock
and brush my teeth.
1118
01:06:49,964 --> 01:06:52,842
You hadn't eaten
this whole time since dinner.
1119
01:06:53,635 --> 01:06:55,762
I would've eaten six things by now.
1120
01:06:55,929 --> 01:06:57,889
Actually, I was feeling bloated.
1121
01:06:59,349 --> 01:07:00,892
I don't know why,
1122
01:07:01,059 --> 01:07:03,978
whether it was tension
or why does one feel bloated?
1123
01:07:05,563 --> 01:07:07,106
What is that a sign of?
1124
01:07:07,649 --> 01:07:10,985
Because I didn't eat much for dinner,
but I felt like the food
1125
01:07:11,152 --> 01:07:12,862
was in my stomach for hours.
1126
01:07:13,029 --> 01:07:15,073
Well, it was probably shitty food.
1127
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:17,617
I think your stomach has shrunk.
That's what it is.
1128
01:07:18,201 --> 01:07:20,119
No, it's actually sticking out.
1129
01:07:20,286 --> 01:07:22,455
No, I-- I think your stomach
has gotten so small
1130
01:07:22,622 --> 01:07:26,543
from not eating
that a little food can stick it out.
1131
01:07:26,709 --> 01:07:31,005
After one and a half liverwurst sandwiches
my stomach was actually popping out.
1132
01:07:32,674 --> 01:07:36,261
I think it really has something
to do with smoking and tension.
1133
01:07:38,972 --> 01:07:43,017
You put a lot of energy into smoking
that you could be using in other ways.
1134
01:07:44,143 --> 01:07:46,062
It's no good, I know.
1135
01:07:47,689 --> 01:07:49,649
It upsets me.
1136
01:07:49,816 --> 01:07:51,651
It really does.
1137
01:07:52,610 --> 01:07:54,195
I wish I could stop.
1138
01:07:55,071 --> 01:07:56,823
But I don't feel good.
1139
01:07:59,909 --> 01:08:02,120
I have smokers hangover
all day long.
1140
01:08:06,457 --> 01:08:08,751
And then the harpsichord...
1141
01:08:11,921 --> 01:08:13,339
brush my teeth,
1142
01:08:15,508 --> 01:08:19,637
set the clock for 10:00 a.m.
and I go to bed.
1143
01:08:24,100 --> 01:08:26,603
I fall asleep almost immediately.
1144
01:08:37,697 --> 01:08:41,200
And then within a few minutes...
1145
01:08:43,036 --> 01:08:47,081
I wake up, because the whores
are out on the street outside.
1146
01:08:48,041 --> 01:08:50,084
They have this conversation.
1147
01:08:50,251 --> 01:08:53,963
They talk so loud, with closed windows
I can hear every word they're saying.
1148
01:08:54,130 --> 01:08:57,258
What are they talking about?
About the trade?
1149
01:08:57,425 --> 01:08:58,426
Yeah.
1150
01:08:58,926 --> 01:09:01,304
- Just shop talk?
- Yeah.
1151
01:09:03,723 --> 01:09:05,767
Do they keep you awake for a while?
1152
01:09:07,018 --> 01:09:09,687
No. I got up.
1153
01:09:11,939 --> 01:09:13,691
And I looked out the window.
1154
01:09:16,486 --> 01:09:18,696
I watched them to see
what they looked like.
1155
01:09:20,990 --> 01:09:25,036
One was putting on makeup
in the dark
1156
01:09:25,203 --> 01:09:28,623
in the mirror of a car.
1157
01:09:29,374 --> 01:09:30,708
Outside mirror.
1158
01:09:32,627 --> 01:09:36,714
Actually, it wasn't a car.
It was that blue truck
1159
01:09:37,924 --> 01:09:41,260
that comes from the junkies'
detention center up the block.
1160
01:09:47,016 --> 01:09:51,604
They have this blue truck
with tinted windows,
1161
01:09:52,730 --> 01:09:55,358
and it has a small, rectangular mirror.
1162
01:09:57,777 --> 01:10:02,240
And then I went back to bed
and fell asleep.