1 00:00:19,936 --> 00:00:25,149 Rob and I wrote letters back and forth while he was in Travis County Jail. 2 00:00:25,150 --> 00:00:29,403 He had a lot of time on his hands so he would write us long letters. 3 00:00:29,404 --> 00:00:31,614 This is the first one he wrote to us. 4 00:00:34,909 --> 00:00:36,119 "Dear Claire, 5 00:00:37,746 --> 00:00:40,582 when you're in jail, time is weird. 6 00:00:41,499 --> 00:00:46,796 Some days a second takes all day, and others a day takes seconds. 7 00:00:47,672 --> 00:00:52,302 When you're in a cell, 23 hours a day, time stretches to infinity. 8 00:00:53,178 --> 00:00:54,262 I read a lot. 9 00:00:54,846 --> 00:00:57,056 I read the whole Dune series. 10 00:00:57,057 --> 00:01:00,809 That's probably one of the greatest sci-fi fantasy series around, 11 00:01:00,810 --> 00:01:02,812 and I consider it a classic. 12 00:01:03,313 --> 00:01:04,605 I'm not much into puzzles." 13 00:01:04,606 --> 00:01:07,233 I think I sent him some puzzle books or something. 14 00:01:07,859 --> 00:01:11,905 "But I do listen to NPR, although I prefer the BBC News. 15 00:01:12,864 --> 00:01:15,532 I've used this situation to grow into a better person 16 00:01:15,533 --> 00:01:17,577 in the last nine-and-a-half years. 17 00:01:18,620 --> 00:01:21,163 You can't see it since you've only known me 18 00:01:21,164 --> 00:01:24,834 for about a week, but ask my mother or even my father. 19 00:01:26,127 --> 00:01:29,046 You may even have them on film talking about this already. 20 00:01:29,047 --> 00:01:31,132 I have no clue what you've gotten so far. 21 00:01:32,425 --> 00:01:35,804 I've grown in so many ways it's impossible to explain. 22 00:01:36,721 --> 00:01:40,308 Please write back soon. Sincere best wishes, Rob." 23 00:01:41,101 --> 00:01:46,146 That was his first letter, and we wrote back and forth a few times 24 00:01:46,147 --> 00:01:49,567 before he got released on bond. Yeah. 25 00:02:47,375 --> 00:02:51,754 To hear that my sentencing had been overturned was huge. 26 00:02:53,464 --> 00:02:56,758 Oh man, I was standing 27 00:02:56,759 --> 00:03:00,345 at my cell door when-- 'cause the officer comes to you, 28 00:03:00,346 --> 00:03:02,598 because it doesn't come at the normal time of mail. 29 00:03:02,599 --> 00:03:03,682 Legal mail is different. 30 00:03:03,683 --> 00:03:06,685 They bring it to you, and I'm like, "Hey, what's this? 31 00:03:06,686 --> 00:03:11,149 It's from the Court of Criminal Appeals." And I opened it up and went, "Oh, wow!" 32 00:03:13,359 --> 00:03:17,822 What they overturned our convictions on was a Sixth Amendment violation 33 00:03:18,573 --> 00:03:22,535 of a right to confrontation specifically. 34 00:03:23,411 --> 00:03:24,953 In Springsteen's trial, 35 00:03:24,954 --> 00:03:27,247 they took my written statement and they had 36 00:03:27,248 --> 00:03:30,043 an officer read parts of it into the record. 37 00:03:31,085 --> 00:03:36,174 In my trial, they took excerpts out of his video interrogation. 38 00:03:38,551 --> 00:03:41,428 The Constitution says, "You have an absolute right 39 00:03:41,429 --> 00:03:43,681 to confront your accuser." 40 00:03:44,682 --> 00:03:47,559 I refused to get on the stand at his trial. 41 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,271 He refused to get on the stand at my trial. 42 00:03:50,897 --> 00:03:54,483 So, where in there were we allowed 43 00:03:54,484 --> 00:03:58,029 to confront our "accusers"? 44 00:03:59,447 --> 00:04:02,407 This was sort of a gray area of the law. 45 00:04:02,408 --> 00:04:04,451 And while this case was on appeal, 46 00:04:04,452 --> 00:04:07,287 the Supreme Court of the United States came down with a decision 47 00:04:07,288 --> 00:04:10,916 that really totally changed the law and made it much more black and white, 48 00:04:10,917 --> 00:04:12,710 which got this case reversed. 49 00:04:13,211 --> 00:04:16,588 New developments today in one of Austin's most notorious crimes. 50 00:04:16,589 --> 00:04:18,298 The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals ruled 51 00:04:18,299 --> 00:04:20,801 that Michael Scott got an unfair capital murder trial 52 00:04:20,802 --> 00:04:21,885 in Travis County. 53 00:04:21,886 --> 00:04:24,930 They say his confession was improperly introduced to jurors 54 00:04:24,931 --> 00:04:27,099 and he didn't get to face Robert Springsteen, 55 00:04:27,100 --> 00:04:28,183 one of his accusers. 56 00:04:28,184 --> 00:04:30,644 Scott's and Springsteen's convictions were overturned. 57 00:04:30,645 --> 00:04:34,231 The appellate court ruled that the men's constitutional right was violated. 58 00:04:34,232 --> 00:04:36,650 Every time I hear those words, 59 00:04:36,651 --> 00:04:40,405 that their rights were violated, I don't... 60 00:04:42,573 --> 00:04:44,742 Our girls were murdered. 61 00:04:46,661 --> 00:04:51,833 The highest court in Texas decided on a vote of five to four. 62 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,835 So, four of the justices said, 63 00:04:54,836 --> 00:04:58,338 "Nope, it didn't make any difference," but it just takes a majority. 64 00:04:58,339 --> 00:05:02,010 Five of them said it did, so they're going back for a new trial. 65 00:05:09,100 --> 00:05:11,519 Six-and-a-half, seven years. 66 00:05:14,689 --> 00:05:18,276 That's a rough guess on that one. 67 00:05:19,277 --> 00:05:22,154 One of the things that people don't get is the sequence of events. 68 00:05:22,155 --> 00:05:23,781 The crime happened in '91. 69 00:05:24,532 --> 00:05:29,077 All right? In '99, Michael Scott confesses, Springsteen confesses. 70 00:05:29,078 --> 00:05:32,748 Springsteen loses his case, Scott loses his case. 71 00:05:32,749 --> 00:05:34,458 One gets death, one gets life. 72 00:05:34,459 --> 00:05:39,505 Seven years later, both cases are reversed and they come back for new trials. 73 00:05:42,091 --> 00:05:44,509 So the district attorney decided 74 00:05:44,510 --> 00:05:48,972 that since the confessions indicate that the girls, 75 00:05:48,973 --> 00:05:51,725 or at least one of the girls, was raped, 76 00:05:51,726 --> 00:05:55,563 they might find DNA evidence to use for a new trial. 77 00:06:01,319 --> 00:06:04,654 At the first trial, they had already done profiling, 78 00:06:04,655 --> 00:06:08,993 and there was no foreign DNA on those swabs. 79 00:06:09,535 --> 00:06:14,290 That's because at the time they needed globs of liquids. 80 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:20,253 But now, they tested it by kind of a new technology 81 00:06:20,254 --> 00:06:21,714 called Y-STR, 82 00:06:22,882 --> 00:06:26,761 which can find much smaller amounts of DNA. 83 00:06:28,388 --> 00:06:32,849 The state had gotten knowledge of this new Y-STR testing 84 00:06:32,850 --> 00:06:34,185 and thought, "This could be it, 85 00:06:34,519 --> 00:06:38,021 'cause now we're not allowed to use these confessions against each other. 86 00:06:38,022 --> 00:06:39,899 We're going to prove with science that he did it." 87 00:06:40,775 --> 00:06:43,777 There's an X chromosome, and there's a Y chromosome. 88 00:06:43,778 --> 00:06:46,780 If you're XX, you're a female. If you're XY, you're a male. 89 00:06:46,781 --> 00:06:51,035 Y-STR, what it does is it ignores the female DNA. 90 00:06:51,702 --> 00:06:53,662 We get a call from the judge's office saying, 91 00:06:53,663 --> 00:06:56,707 "Hey, can you come and meet right now?" 92 00:06:57,458 --> 00:06:58,750 When we got there, 93 00:06:58,751 --> 00:07:00,837 prosecutors said, "We have found 94 00:07:00,962 --> 00:07:04,465 a full Y-STR profile in Amy Ayers." 95 00:07:07,343 --> 00:07:10,263 "And it doesn't match any of your defendants. 96 00:07:11,597 --> 00:07:13,850 Your two or the other two, either." 97 00:07:20,857 --> 00:07:24,735 The most important thing the DNA stands for is it's someone else. 98 00:07:24,944 --> 00:07:27,488 It is not any one of these four boys. 99 00:07:28,406 --> 00:07:31,783 And so I suppose the state of Texas now is going 100 00:07:31,784 --> 00:07:36,371 to say that there were really five boys there instead of four. 101 00:07:36,372 --> 00:07:39,749 Never mind that is inconsistent with the theories 102 00:07:39,750 --> 00:07:42,752 they used to try them the first time. 103 00:07:42,753 --> 00:07:45,046 They thought they were going to get a Y-STR result 104 00:07:45,047 --> 00:07:47,007 and hammer the point home. 105 00:07:47,008 --> 00:07:50,303 Instead, they got the truth and they can't deal with it. 106 00:07:54,015 --> 00:07:57,142 The theory comes up by the state of Texas, 107 00:07:57,143 --> 00:07:58,769 what must be contamination. 108 00:07:59,437 --> 00:08:01,522 Something had to happen to this sample. 109 00:08:02,148 --> 00:08:07,403 It could be contamination or it could be another person involved. 110 00:08:10,114 --> 00:08:14,494 So, the crime scene collection procedures in 1991 111 00:08:15,411 --> 00:08:18,038 with the lab processing procedures 112 00:08:18,039 --> 00:08:19,749 and handling procedures. 113 00:08:20,583 --> 00:08:23,752 Y-STR can pick up cast-off skin cells. 114 00:08:23,753 --> 00:08:28,381 So, anybody that had contact, was even close to these swabs, 115 00:08:28,382 --> 00:08:31,343 could have contaminated the evidence. 116 00:08:31,344 --> 00:08:32,761 You've got to think of the crime scene. 117 00:08:32,762 --> 00:08:36,057 And you've got, I don't know, four inches of water that has flooded. 118 00:08:36,182 --> 00:08:39,309 You've got naked girls on the floor with water. 119 00:08:39,310 --> 00:08:41,187 It could be anything. It could be... 120 00:08:42,021 --> 00:08:44,649 I mean, it's a restaurant. People are in there all the time. 121 00:08:45,358 --> 00:08:48,193 So, they began testing every firefighter 122 00:08:48,194 --> 00:08:51,029 that was there on the scene, over 50 of them. 123 00:08:51,030 --> 00:08:54,784 Any of the officers that were there, any other law enforcement personnel, 124 00:08:55,493 --> 00:08:58,746 the medical examiner. They test Amy's father... 125 00:09:00,206 --> 00:09:01,207 brother... 126 00:09:03,042 --> 00:09:05,378 anybody who else that they think it could be. 127 00:09:06,712 --> 00:09:08,672 After testing more than 200 men 128 00:09:08,673 --> 00:09:13,885 who just even looked at this body, were anywhere near this body, 129 00:09:13,886 --> 00:09:15,637 there's nobody else, 130 00:09:15,638 --> 00:09:18,557 except for maybe somebody that's not in this pile, 131 00:09:18,558 --> 00:09:20,059 i.e., the real killer. 132 00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:22,602 The idea that it could be contamination, yes. 133 00:09:22,603 --> 00:09:25,021 It's a possibility. Is it probable? No. 134 00:09:25,022 --> 00:09:30,110 A full profile inside a vaginal swab of the youngest victim? 135 00:09:30,111 --> 00:09:33,239 No. That's not contamination. That's your killer. 136 00:09:42,582 --> 00:09:44,667 Since the original trial of this case, 137 00:09:46,043 --> 00:09:50,089 new developments in DNA technology have become available. 138 00:09:51,007 --> 00:09:52,925 Currently, it is clear to me 139 00:09:53,759 --> 00:09:56,011 that our evidence in the death 140 00:09:56,012 --> 00:09:59,849 of these four young women includes DNA from one male 141 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,602 whose identity is not yet known to us. 142 00:10:03,060 --> 00:10:05,980 Given that, I could not in good conscience 143 00:10:06,731 --> 00:10:10,942 allow this case to go to trial before the identity of this male donor 144 00:10:10,943 --> 00:10:14,238 is determined and the full truth is known. 145 00:10:35,509 --> 00:10:40,264 For the first time in the history of criminal justice in the state of Texas, 146 00:10:41,307 --> 00:10:44,225 two young men were released on personal bond 147 00:10:44,226 --> 00:10:46,646 on four counts of capital murder. 148 00:10:47,271 --> 00:10:50,940 I determined I couldn't keep those defendants in jail any longer, 149 00:10:50,941 --> 00:10:52,860 so I let them out on personal bond 150 00:10:53,736 --> 00:10:56,697 and gave the state a deadline to be ready to go to trial. 151 00:11:00,117 --> 00:11:05,538 I remain confident that Robert Springsteen and Michael Scott are both responsible 152 00:11:05,539 --> 00:11:07,582 for the deaths at the yogurt shop. 153 00:11:07,583 --> 00:11:10,502 I can assure this community that we're going to continue to work 154 00:11:10,503 --> 00:11:12,922 on this case until we take it to trial again. 155 00:11:13,839 --> 00:11:15,257 First thing I told Robert 156 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,344 was that I was sorry it took so damn long for this day to come. 157 00:11:19,053 --> 00:11:21,554 He hasn't been free for over ten years. 158 00:11:21,555 --> 00:11:24,308 The promise I made him is that he's never going back. 159 00:11:25,101 --> 00:11:27,352 We're going to win this case, and I don't care how that's done. 160 00:11:27,353 --> 00:11:29,396 Trial, dismissal, whatever. 161 00:11:29,397 --> 00:11:30,855 What does it feel like to be out? 162 00:11:30,856 --> 00:11:34,442 It's wonderful, and I'd like to thank God and my families and my attorney 163 00:11:34,443 --> 00:11:36,570 for this opportunity. Thank you. 164 00:11:40,741 --> 00:11:42,826 Knowing that it is a possibility a match 165 00:11:42,827 --> 00:11:45,537 may never be found doesn't bother this mom. 166 00:11:45,538 --> 00:11:49,082 The case is a good case. We didn't need the DNA in the first place. 167 00:11:49,083 --> 00:11:50,960 They are going to pay every day of their life. 168 00:11:52,712 --> 00:11:55,630 And if I were there, I would probably just stay in the jail. 169 00:11:55,631 --> 00:12:01,053 It's safer for them because there's a lot of people who are upset over this. 170 00:12:12,606 --> 00:12:14,233 This case is very simple. 171 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:16,569 It's about a bad interrogation 172 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:19,738 in which interrogators crossed the line 173 00:12:19,739 --> 00:12:22,700 into using the kind of tactics we know cause false confessions. 174 00:12:23,617 --> 00:12:26,035 They suffer from something called confirmation bias, 175 00:12:26,036 --> 00:12:27,496 which means that they're looking 176 00:12:28,038 --> 00:12:31,876 for any evidence of guilt because that's what they already think. 177 00:12:32,501 --> 00:12:37,590 So, this is Carlos Garcia, and I think what he's doing here 178 00:12:37,757 --> 00:12:40,468 is practicing his opening statement 179 00:12:41,886 --> 00:12:45,930 for the retrial that would have come up in, 180 00:12:45,931 --> 00:12:50,143 I think it was 2008, 2009 he was doing this. 181 00:12:50,144 --> 00:12:53,731 Trying to get Michael to remember details. 182 00:12:54,690 --> 00:12:56,942 And Michael gets scared, and he can't remember. 183 00:12:58,027 --> 00:13:01,446 Well, he's going to start going, "That's the gun, ain't it? 184 00:13:01,447 --> 00:13:03,031 Come on, tell me." 185 00:13:03,032 --> 00:13:07,036 Michael will say, "Yeah, that's the gun. The gun he shot the girls with." 186 00:13:09,038 --> 00:13:12,249 Paul Johnson knew, as he's watching on that videotape... 187 00:13:13,083 --> 00:13:16,753 He's sitting in some other room close by, watching this stuff go down. 188 00:13:16,754 --> 00:13:19,757 And Paul Johnson knows at that moment that that's not the gun. 189 00:13:20,591 --> 00:13:22,593 Because Paul Johnson had had it tested. 190 00:13:24,595 --> 00:13:26,763 And the Austin Police Department ballistics person says, 191 00:13:26,764 --> 00:13:30,392 "It's very unlikely this gun you have is the gun that killed those girls." 192 00:13:31,811 --> 00:13:33,812 I don't think quite enough emphasis 193 00:13:33,813 --> 00:13:37,190 had been put in the first trial on the fact 194 00:13:37,191 --> 00:13:39,235 that the gun did not match, 195 00:13:39,568 --> 00:13:43,697 that there was really no physical evidence linking these boys to the crime. 196 00:13:44,281 --> 00:13:46,699 APD knew that the gun did not match, 197 00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:49,953 even though they're indicating in Michael Scott's interrogation 198 00:13:49,954 --> 00:13:52,456 that they had the matching gun. 199 00:13:53,624 --> 00:13:56,377 In 17 years since this crime was committed, 200 00:13:57,169 --> 00:14:00,505 not one single atom of physical evidence 201 00:14:00,506 --> 00:14:05,678 connecting these boys to that crime scene has ever been found. 202 00:14:06,220 --> 00:14:07,221 Not one. 203 00:14:09,223 --> 00:14:10,224 How long was that? 204 00:14:11,433 --> 00:14:13,476 - Forty-eight minutes. - Okay. 205 00:14:13,477 --> 00:14:16,063 Yeah, that needs to be cut down by 20 minutes. 206 00:14:16,814 --> 00:14:17,815 Man. 207 00:14:19,275 --> 00:14:21,902 In my own opinion, Johnson screwed it up. 208 00:14:22,653 --> 00:14:26,615 Not only did he screw it up, he hid things that did not fit. 209 00:14:28,868 --> 00:14:31,953 So, every test from the lead, 210 00:14:31,954 --> 00:14:37,375 from the bullets that were in the girls, they can't say it really did come 211 00:14:37,376 --> 00:14:40,462 from Maurice's gun or for sure that it didn't. 212 00:14:42,798 --> 00:14:44,591 What Maurice had said was, 213 00:14:44,592 --> 00:14:47,677 "This gun that I was arrested with is the gun 214 00:14:47,678 --> 00:14:51,181 that Forrest took to kill the girls." 215 00:14:53,058 --> 00:14:58,147 But we have always known that Maurice had access to other guns. 216 00:14:59,064 --> 00:15:02,150 So, even though we couldn't get a positive identification, 217 00:15:02,151 --> 00:15:06,363 it still wouldn't have cleared Maurice because we knew he had other guns. 218 00:15:07,865 --> 00:15:09,324 This gun that he was arrested with, 219 00:15:09,325 --> 00:15:12,036 it would only be a match if you believe Maurice. 220 00:15:13,746 --> 00:15:15,539 I think I'm an honest person. 221 00:15:16,457 --> 00:15:17,832 I tell the truth. 222 00:15:17,833 --> 00:15:20,043 I think I'm honest in everything I do, 223 00:15:20,044 --> 00:15:25,507 and I think my investigation was done in an honest way. 224 00:15:27,885 --> 00:15:33,432 And to me, the convictions confirmed what I had always thought, 225 00:15:34,058 --> 00:15:37,518 that not only had they done it, but that we proved 226 00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:40,105 beyond a reasonable doubt that they had done it. 227 00:15:52,493 --> 00:15:54,160 Michael Scott and Robert Springsteen 228 00:15:54,161 --> 00:15:56,746 have walked into court dozens of times before, 229 00:15:56,747 --> 00:16:00,208 but this was the first time they walked in as free men. 230 00:16:00,209 --> 00:16:02,210 Both men have been out of jail since June, 231 00:16:02,211 --> 00:16:05,838 when State District Judge Mike Lynch released them on bond, 232 00:16:05,839 --> 00:16:09,301 and said prosecutors had to put up or shut up by today. 233 00:16:10,719 --> 00:16:12,679 Courtroom, come to order, please. Everyone rise. 234 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,765 167th judicial district court of Travis County is now in session. 235 00:16:15,766 --> 00:16:18,185 The honorable Mike Lynch presiding. You may be seated. 236 00:16:22,606 --> 00:16:24,858 Good afternoon. We're on the record. 237 00:16:25,442 --> 00:16:27,193 In August, the court issued an order 238 00:16:27,194 --> 00:16:30,989 due to the unique nature and circumstances of this case 239 00:16:30,990 --> 00:16:36,786 that set today as a date for the parties to announce to the court 240 00:16:36,787 --> 00:16:40,374 whether or not they'd be ready to begin a jury trial. 241 00:16:42,001 --> 00:16:44,253 As the court is well aware, 242 00:16:44,378 --> 00:16:50,299 the state is conducting testing to identify the male donor 243 00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,928 that we uncovered through some Y-STR testing 244 00:16:53,929 --> 00:16:57,141 from one of the vaginal swabs of one of the victims in our case. 245 00:16:57,683 --> 00:16:59,350 So because of that, Your Honor, given the fact 246 00:16:59,351 --> 00:17:01,978 that we have not yet identified the male donor, 247 00:17:01,979 --> 00:17:05,106 the state sees no other viable option at this point, Your Honor, 248 00:17:05,107 --> 00:17:07,650 but to file a motion with the court 249 00:17:07,651 --> 00:17:10,319 for dismissal pending further investigation 250 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,406 of this matter into the identity of this male donor. 251 00:17:13,407 --> 00:17:15,909 - Anything else from the state? - No, sir. 252 00:17:16,702 --> 00:17:20,747 Apparently having no objections, the court will grant the motions 253 00:17:20,748 --> 00:17:25,294 as to each indictment, as to each of the two tenants. 254 00:17:26,712 --> 00:17:29,839 When the state wasn't ready by that date because of these evidentiary issues, 255 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,594 I pretty much forced them to dismiss the case without prejudice. 256 00:17:34,970 --> 00:17:39,099 I think we were just enforcing the law and doing what was fair. 257 00:17:41,393 --> 00:17:45,396 I can see how most everybody is unsatisfied... 258 00:17:45,397 --> 00:17:46,482 Excuse me. 259 00:17:48,275 --> 00:17:51,361 ...with there being no final determination. 260 00:17:54,239 --> 00:17:55,782 But I'm assuming the defendants 261 00:17:55,783 --> 00:17:58,869 are very happy to be out of jail and not under charge anymore. 262 00:18:00,829 --> 00:18:02,038 Mr. Springsteen, can we talk to you? 263 00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:03,707 No comment right now, please. 264 00:18:06,502 --> 00:18:07,878 There is no victory here. 265 00:18:08,462 --> 00:18:10,964 The primary question in this case has still not been answered. 266 00:18:11,507 --> 00:18:12,966 Who committed these crimes? 267 00:18:13,675 --> 00:18:16,470 Where are those people? And we need to find them. 268 00:18:17,221 --> 00:18:22,975 But most of all, I think we should reserve our sympathy and our concern 269 00:18:22,976 --> 00:18:24,311 for the families of those girls. 270 00:18:26,939 --> 00:18:29,149 You can go to court, but you can't get justice. 271 00:18:29,817 --> 00:18:31,026 All you get is the law. 272 00:18:31,652 --> 00:18:35,071 Justice to you may be different than justice to me 273 00:18:35,072 --> 00:18:37,658 or anybody else down the street. 274 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,786 - Yeah. - Justice may be revenge. 275 00:18:47,042 --> 00:18:48,460 Make no mistake... 276 00:18:54,883 --> 00:18:56,677 this was a difficult decision 277 00:18:57,261 --> 00:18:59,054 and one I'd rather not have to make. 278 00:18:59,847 --> 00:19:03,600 But I believe it is the best legal and strategic course to take 279 00:19:04,184 --> 00:19:07,187 to ultimately retry both Springsteen and Scott. 280 00:19:11,441 --> 00:19:15,319 There is no database for this particular type of profile. 281 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,407 This is a Y-only profile, and there's no database for that. 282 00:19:19,408 --> 00:19:21,868 Can you talk about what this means for the justice system? 283 00:19:21,869 --> 00:19:24,871 Because either you've let two murderers walk out of court today, 284 00:19:24,872 --> 00:19:27,081 or the wrong guys have been locked up. 285 00:19:27,082 --> 00:19:28,958 How should people have faith in the justice system 286 00:19:28,959 --> 00:19:31,837 when neither one of those seems to be a good outcome, is it? 287 00:19:32,421 --> 00:19:35,464 Twenty-four citizens of Travis County have heard this case 288 00:19:35,465 --> 00:19:38,676 and have convicted both of these men before. 289 00:19:38,677 --> 00:19:40,929 This is just a new turn of events. 290 00:19:41,889 --> 00:19:44,891 We need to keep searching for the donor of this DNA. 291 00:19:44,892 --> 00:19:48,603 I don't, as I said, believe it would be fair to give it to a jury now. 292 00:19:48,604 --> 00:19:50,939 Just ask them to guess or surmise. 293 00:19:52,399 --> 00:19:53,609 And so we'll wait. 294 00:20:11,251 --> 00:20:13,712 - Congratulations. - Thank you. 295 00:20:27,935 --> 00:20:32,439 But just now you looked confident today. You looked like... You looked confident. 296 00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:36,818 So, this is his first day as a free man. 297 00:20:39,154 --> 00:20:41,615 Mostly free, out of prison anyway. 298 00:20:42,199 --> 00:20:44,242 You look great. I mean, I think you look good. 299 00:20:44,243 --> 00:20:46,119 I think you look healthy... 300 00:20:49,414 --> 00:20:53,252 Even though the charges have been dropped against you now, 301 00:20:54,169 --> 00:20:59,090 you're very close to having been exonerated in the public view. 302 00:20:59,091 --> 00:21:00,592 I've not been exonerated. 303 00:21:01,677 --> 00:21:03,637 My charges have only been dismissed. 304 00:21:04,930 --> 00:21:06,014 So, I went... 305 00:21:08,141 --> 00:21:12,521 kind of from one jail to another. 306 00:21:13,188 --> 00:21:14,189 Shit. 307 00:21:16,066 --> 00:21:19,278 Fucking 100-dollar pair of pants and the damn belt won't fit in the loops. 308 00:21:19,820 --> 00:21:24,074 It wasn't an exciting thing that I guess a lot of people 309 00:21:24,825 --> 00:21:26,742 would think that it would be 310 00:21:26,743 --> 00:21:29,662 because you can't not think about it. 311 00:21:29,663 --> 00:21:33,541 There's always that question, "Will I ever be exonerated?" 312 00:21:33,542 --> 00:21:35,793 - Hi! It's nice to meet you. - Producer with us. 313 00:21:35,794 --> 00:21:37,004 Make yourselves at home. 314 00:21:38,171 --> 00:21:41,757 I can start another pot of coffee. We got Gatorade and Diet Dr. Pepper 315 00:21:41,758 --> 00:21:45,052 - and, of course, water. - Very sweet. We're good. 316 00:21:45,053 --> 00:21:47,221 I think we just want to get a little bit of B-roll, 317 00:21:47,222 --> 00:21:50,392 just like sort of what are you doing on a daily basis now? 318 00:21:51,101 --> 00:21:54,061 This here is my kitchen, so to speak. 319 00:21:54,062 --> 00:21:57,565 I've got a little toaster oven. I've got a microwave. 320 00:21:57,566 --> 00:21:58,775 I've got a skillet. 321 00:22:05,365 --> 00:22:08,744 Robert Springsteen, now 35 years old. 322 00:22:08,869 --> 00:22:12,580 He never expected to spend the past ten years in prison. 323 00:22:12,581 --> 00:22:16,625 There's been a lot of hoopla and madness going on here the last several years 324 00:22:16,626 --> 00:22:19,670 and I would like to get some of the records set straight on this 325 00:22:19,671 --> 00:22:21,715 and have the people know the truth. 326 00:22:22,132 --> 00:22:23,550 Were your fingerprints ever found 327 00:22:23,675 --> 00:22:25,177 - anywhere at the yogurt shop? - No. 328 00:22:25,302 --> 00:22:26,677 - Your blood? - No. 329 00:22:26,678 --> 00:22:28,387 - Your DNA? - No. 330 00:22:28,388 --> 00:22:30,181 - Any hair? - No. 331 00:22:30,182 --> 00:22:36,604 But he does have trouble explaining why, after denying for hours he was involved, 332 00:22:36,605 --> 00:22:39,065 that he finally confessed to the police. 333 00:22:39,066 --> 00:22:40,691 How does that happen? 334 00:22:40,692 --> 00:22:41,776 I don't know. 335 00:22:41,777 --> 00:22:45,280 There's psychological aspects to it that I don't understand. 336 00:22:56,666 --> 00:22:59,293 In a way, yes, and in a way, no. 337 00:22:59,294 --> 00:23:02,255 I've talked to several attorneys and several experts, 338 00:23:03,590 --> 00:23:06,760 and they've all said, "You know, it can happen to anybody." 339 00:23:08,053 --> 00:23:10,304 And people are just now really starting 340 00:23:10,305 --> 00:23:13,682 to find out the truth about false confessions 341 00:23:13,683 --> 00:23:15,227 and coerced confessions. 342 00:23:19,147 --> 00:23:20,649 Good? Yeah. Kill him, Belle. 343 00:23:22,067 --> 00:23:23,819 Hello, Miss Belle. 344 00:23:24,653 --> 00:23:26,028 I've told you all the line, right? 345 00:23:26,029 --> 00:23:28,155 That John Wisser asked me what line of poetry 346 00:23:28,156 --> 00:23:31,201 I would use to characterize the end of my case. 347 00:23:31,743 --> 00:23:34,246 And I told him it was T.S. Eliot, you know? 348 00:23:40,752 --> 00:23:42,838 I mean, it's dissatisfying. 349 00:23:43,463 --> 00:23:46,383 It's simply over because science doesn't have an opinion. 350 00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:48,385 And here we sit. 351 00:23:49,052 --> 00:23:50,762 And there you go, by God. 352 00:23:51,972 --> 00:23:53,098 You want a cigar? 353 00:23:54,850 --> 00:23:56,685 No, I'm good, thanks. 354 00:23:57,227 --> 00:24:00,312 I was just talking to Judge Lynch this morning. 355 00:24:00,313 --> 00:24:03,316 I mean, this case is over, but it's never gonna be over. 356 00:24:03,942 --> 00:24:06,819 And that was one of the things we talked about. 357 00:24:06,820 --> 00:24:10,197 He asked about you and I told him. 358 00:24:10,198 --> 00:24:11,616 He thinks you're gone. 359 00:24:13,118 --> 00:24:16,954 You know, I just said, "You're in West Virginia and I told you 360 00:24:16,955 --> 00:24:19,249 that you're never coming back to Texas." 361 00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:25,380 The DA's office believes you're guilty. The cops are almost rabid about it. 362 00:24:27,591 --> 00:24:31,093 If they could catch you behind the wheel, you would not make it out of Austin. 363 00:24:31,094 --> 00:24:33,721 They would find a reason to put you in jail. 364 00:24:33,722 --> 00:24:35,056 That's what I'm saying. 365 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,476 Even if the charges were dropped, 366 00:24:38,185 --> 00:24:40,437 it would be a sensational news story. 367 00:24:41,062 --> 00:24:45,108 You know, yogurt shop defendant. Belle, honest to God. 368 00:24:45,775 --> 00:24:47,569 Belle, I am going to stick you... 369 00:24:49,237 --> 00:24:52,240 No! No, I don't care what you think. 370 00:25:26,816 --> 00:25:28,943 I really like Texas. I hate to leave, 371 00:25:28,944 --> 00:25:31,446 but it's the best thing to do right now, so... 372 00:25:36,117 --> 00:25:39,286 Well, we don't know for sure that it is, 373 00:25:39,287 --> 00:25:42,290 but it gives the appearance of being pretty bad, 374 00:25:42,832 --> 00:25:45,751 and we just don't want there to be any issues, you know? 375 00:25:45,752 --> 00:25:49,172 So it's better to be safe than sorry. 376 00:25:54,135 --> 00:25:56,805 Eastbound N2. There's a parking lot here. 377 00:26:05,814 --> 00:26:08,608 EMS 10-18, I've got an officer down. 378 00:26:09,150 --> 00:26:13,070 What started as a routine traffic stop ended with the shooting death 379 00:26:13,071 --> 00:26:16,115 of a man that had a history with Austin police. 380 00:26:16,116 --> 00:26:19,577 The officer managed to fire a single round 381 00:26:19,578 --> 00:26:21,413 that did strike the suspect. 382 00:26:22,205 --> 00:26:25,624 We are discovering the man killed was Maurice Pierce. 383 00:26:25,625 --> 00:26:28,210 Police say Pierce ran through a stop sign 384 00:26:28,211 --> 00:26:30,671 and started jumping over fences to get away 385 00:26:30,672 --> 00:26:31,755 through this neighborhood. 386 00:26:31,756 --> 00:26:33,716 When Wilson finally caught up with him... 387 00:26:33,717 --> 00:26:37,177 The officer was attempting to control him and get him in custody. 388 00:26:37,178 --> 00:26:39,096 He said he felt something wet. 389 00:26:39,097 --> 00:26:41,182 He realized that Maurice had gotten 390 00:26:42,058 --> 00:26:44,727 the knife off of his belt and had cut his throat. 391 00:26:44,728 --> 00:26:47,771 Officer Wilson is in stable condition. 392 00:26:47,772 --> 00:26:49,815 Minutes later, neighbors called police, 393 00:26:49,816 --> 00:26:52,610 saying the attacker was dead in a yard down the street. 394 00:26:52,611 --> 00:26:56,196 Maurice Pierce is the name many Austinites know well, 395 00:26:56,197 --> 00:26:58,907 connected to that infamous yogurt shop murders. 396 00:26:58,908 --> 00:27:00,659 Members of Pierce's family say 397 00:27:00,660 --> 00:27:03,997 that past followed him, saying he didn't trust police. 398 00:27:06,291 --> 00:27:08,667 Senior Sergeant of the homicide detectives, 399 00:27:08,668 --> 00:27:11,713 the next morning, he called me and I chewed his butt out. 400 00:27:13,131 --> 00:27:15,132 I said, you should have come and got me that night. 401 00:27:15,133 --> 00:27:19,346 I don't want to hear Maurice Pierce dead. I want to see Maurice Pierce dead. 402 00:27:20,972 --> 00:27:24,224 What I had always hoped was going to happen, 403 00:27:24,225 --> 00:27:25,768 that we would get evidence 404 00:27:25,769 --> 00:27:30,481 to get him to trial, and it'd be for capital murder, 405 00:27:30,482 --> 00:27:32,901 and he would get a life sentence. 406 00:27:33,401 --> 00:27:34,486 So when 407 00:27:35,737 --> 00:27:38,281 I found out that he had been killed, 408 00:27:38,948 --> 00:27:42,869 it really didn't bother me, which may sound harsh, but it's true. 409 00:27:46,206 --> 00:27:49,708 Over the years, Maurice Pierce kept talking to the cops, 410 00:27:49,709 --> 00:27:53,296 like, they'd interview him, and he would always talk to them. 411 00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:56,925 Pierce was always afraid of the cops. 412 00:27:57,842 --> 00:28:01,554 They kept bothering him, 'cause he was always that prime suspect. 413 00:28:02,722 --> 00:28:06,685 Johnson would go up and bother him and talk to him, and he would always talk. 414 00:29:55,043 --> 00:29:58,254 Pierce died because of his PTSD. 415 00:29:59,547 --> 00:30:00,590 I have no doubt. 416 00:30:01,466 --> 00:30:05,386 If Maurice Pierce doesn't decide to take a gun to the mall 417 00:30:06,346 --> 00:30:09,516 on December 15th 1991, he'd still be alive 418 00:30:10,350 --> 00:30:13,520 and none of us would be here right now talking about this. 419 00:30:46,094 --> 00:30:49,346 I try not to keep a lot of cop stuff in my house. 420 00:30:49,347 --> 00:30:52,933 I take my shoes off at the front door, just try to leave it as much as possible. 421 00:30:52,934 --> 00:30:55,644 But then I come home and work from home for a couple hours every day. 422 00:30:55,645 --> 00:30:58,815 So I guess it's kind of a moot in some sense. 423 00:31:01,109 --> 00:31:04,320 When I was in the homicide division, I solved a hundred percent of my cases. 424 00:31:04,946 --> 00:31:07,782 I left there with no open casework. 425 00:31:08,491 --> 00:31:10,034 Maybe I jinxed myself, came over here and like, 426 00:31:10,159 --> 00:31:12,495 "Oh, you think you're good? Well, here's yogurt shop." 427 00:31:15,206 --> 00:31:18,667 O.J. Simpson, he needed a ton of blood for DNA back then. 428 00:31:18,668 --> 00:31:20,586 That's when DNA became kind of a household thing, 429 00:31:20,587 --> 00:31:21,921 was the Simpson trial. 430 00:31:22,422 --> 00:31:24,966 And now we're talking picograms, 431 00:31:25,508 --> 00:31:27,302 which is like a thousandth of a nanogram, 432 00:31:29,095 --> 00:31:30,721 that you can't even see with the naked eye. 433 00:31:30,722 --> 00:31:34,016 And it seems like each time you talk to these labs, 434 00:31:34,017 --> 00:31:35,435 they're able to do more with less. 435 00:31:52,035 --> 00:31:53,536 Be real careful. 436 00:31:55,246 --> 00:31:56,372 There you go. 437 00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:03,253 So this is reconstructed from the crime scene photos and video. 438 00:32:03,254 --> 00:32:05,923 And, of course, this is the front where all the customers would sit 439 00:32:05,924 --> 00:32:09,469 and then the back where the fire started and the girls were. 440 00:32:11,346 --> 00:32:13,722 That is the first thing we see 'cause we have all the girls up here 441 00:32:13,723 --> 00:32:16,684 with a biography about each one. 442 00:32:17,769 --> 00:32:18,811 And this is... 443 00:32:18,937 --> 00:32:20,562 Yeah, it's the first thing you see every morning. 444 00:32:20,563 --> 00:32:23,523 So, it's a reminder that these girls have histories, 445 00:32:23,524 --> 00:32:27,778 have families, have faces and had lives. 446 00:32:27,779 --> 00:32:29,614 And it's not just a case. 447 00:32:30,114 --> 00:32:31,366 It's much more than that. 448 00:32:33,242 --> 00:32:36,746 We have some of the original yogurt shop material here. 449 00:32:37,246 --> 00:32:40,166 These two filing cabinets is full of original material. 450 00:32:40,833 --> 00:32:43,460 And then there's multiple other filing cabinets at a different location. 451 00:32:43,461 --> 00:32:46,630 So, just again, the vastness of this case, 452 00:32:46,631 --> 00:32:50,551 this is only a portion of some of the hard copies. 453 00:32:52,261 --> 00:32:55,807 Here it is. So we still have all the original VHS. 454 00:32:57,058 --> 00:33:00,060 I mean, this is interviews, this is in-car camera, 455 00:33:00,061 --> 00:33:01,520 this is like the original VHS, 456 00:33:01,521 --> 00:33:06,401 and I guess if we wanted to watch it, we'd have to find a VHS player somewhere. 457 00:33:18,621 --> 00:33:20,957 So we have this unknown DNA, 458 00:33:21,124 --> 00:33:24,919 and I gotta figure out who that is. That's goal number one. 459 00:33:25,044 --> 00:33:30,216 It could be contamination, or it could be another person involved. 460 00:33:31,009 --> 00:33:33,343 What's the probability that it's contamination? 461 00:33:33,344 --> 00:33:37,305 We have the original '08 profile that went to one lab. 462 00:33:37,306 --> 00:33:40,017 And then as early as 2017 and 2019, 463 00:33:40,018 --> 00:33:42,228 we're finding that profile in other places. 464 00:33:42,854 --> 00:33:44,605 A different-- totally different lab. 465 00:33:45,106 --> 00:33:50,153 And totally different, unrelated pieces of evidence. 466 00:33:51,195 --> 00:33:54,406 So how would you have contamination 467 00:33:54,407 --> 00:33:57,659 when you've got different areas of the crime scene, 468 00:33:57,660 --> 00:33:59,661 different people with different chains of custody, 469 00:33:59,662 --> 00:34:02,999 and these items going to different labs in different time periods? 470 00:34:05,626 --> 00:34:07,419 It would be like winning the lottery repeatedly, 471 00:34:07,420 --> 00:34:11,131 like the chances of somehow samples that are unrelated 472 00:34:11,132 --> 00:34:13,467 and handled by different people in different labs 473 00:34:13,468 --> 00:34:16,261 at different time periods somehow got contaminated 474 00:34:16,262 --> 00:34:18,473 by the same male profile? 475 00:34:19,140 --> 00:34:21,058 That does not exist. 476 00:34:21,059 --> 00:34:24,227 So, I suppose the state of Texas now is going 477 00:34:24,228 --> 00:34:28,691 to say that there were really five boys there instead of four. 478 00:34:30,568 --> 00:34:33,403 It's not contamination by, like, lab personnel or anybody on the scene, 479 00:34:33,404 --> 00:34:36,281 but to say that that is our fifth person, 480 00:34:36,282 --> 00:34:38,784 or it shows that the four were not there at all, 481 00:34:38,785 --> 00:34:40,368 it's some other person, like, 482 00:34:40,369 --> 00:34:42,120 until we figure out who that profile belongs to, 483 00:34:42,121 --> 00:34:44,791 like, that's just speculation. 484 00:34:58,846 --> 00:34:59,847 Yeah. 485 00:35:13,236 --> 00:35:14,278 You know? 486 00:35:14,779 --> 00:35:15,780 Yeah. 487 00:35:16,447 --> 00:35:17,824 - Yeah. - I'm... 488 00:35:19,784 --> 00:35:21,869 staying out of it until I figure out who that person is. 489 00:35:24,664 --> 00:35:27,165 It could come back to somebody totally unrelated to this case, 490 00:35:27,166 --> 00:35:30,210 like their DNA got transferred for a totally normal reason, right? 491 00:35:30,211 --> 00:35:31,378 Like a friend or something. 492 00:35:31,379 --> 00:35:34,173 Or it may be a complete dead end. We still don't know. 493 00:35:36,008 --> 00:35:39,137 We can't think of DNA as proving guilt or innocence. 494 00:35:39,387 --> 00:35:42,097 DNA is something that says, "I have a sample 495 00:35:42,098 --> 00:35:44,850 and I may be able to tell you who is the source of this sample 496 00:35:44,851 --> 00:35:48,103 or who's not a contributor of the sample." 497 00:35:48,104 --> 00:35:51,273 But how it got there, when it got there, 498 00:35:51,274 --> 00:35:54,986 that's up to the whole investigation and all the other factors in that. 499 00:35:57,363 --> 00:35:59,198 Anytime you do a DNA test, 500 00:35:59,365 --> 00:36:01,283 you have to take some of the sample and use it. 501 00:36:01,284 --> 00:36:04,161 Once we use it, it's no longer there. 502 00:36:04,162 --> 00:36:06,998 So when you have a DNA sample and there's very little, 503 00:36:07,540 --> 00:36:10,625 you may only have one shot at it 'cause you may have to use all of it up. 504 00:36:10,626 --> 00:36:12,419 And then there's no going back after that. 505 00:36:12,420 --> 00:36:15,089 Here they got a Y profile from Jennifer Harbison. 506 00:36:15,756 --> 00:36:17,883 In a lot of ways, you're pushing the envelope here 507 00:36:17,884 --> 00:36:22,637 to cutting-edge technology, if not bleeding-edge technology. 508 00:36:22,638 --> 00:36:25,223 So we don't know if this is going 509 00:36:25,224 --> 00:36:29,144 to get the answer we want, which is something, 510 00:36:29,145 --> 00:36:32,647 or it's going to just be a waste in that 511 00:36:32,648 --> 00:36:36,526 because no one's done this on this kind of work before. 512 00:36:36,527 --> 00:36:41,157 It's a last effort because there's nothing else the case can use 513 00:36:41,782 --> 00:36:43,576 to try to solve the murder. 514 00:36:51,959 --> 00:36:56,379 Okay, so we, y'all, we're going to call, bear with us, 515 00:36:56,380 --> 00:36:59,883 because I'm sorry, we may be able to solve crimes, 516 00:36:59,884 --> 00:37:02,803 but we can't solve technology, just saying. 517 00:37:03,638 --> 00:37:08,517 All right, so this is my crew right back here. I told you about. 518 00:37:09,101 --> 00:37:13,439 And they're all so excited to meet you 519 00:37:13,648 --> 00:37:15,607 'cause I've been bragging on you. 520 00:37:15,608 --> 00:37:17,567 Okay, we have a bunch of questions, 521 00:37:17,568 --> 00:37:21,029 but I think that where we want to start is, 522 00:37:21,030 --> 00:37:24,325 what would you do different, knowing what you know today? 523 00:37:24,867 --> 00:37:27,453 I would have continued investigating 524 00:37:28,287 --> 00:37:29,372 the creek people, 525 00:37:30,081 --> 00:37:33,459 Mac and the people that were hanging out in the creek there with Mac. 526 00:37:34,877 --> 00:37:38,713 Not to look at them as suspects, but just to get any other information 527 00:37:38,714 --> 00:37:41,842 because there were tons of tips about Maurice. 528 00:37:44,512 --> 00:37:47,597 Under the bridge where these people were hanging out, 529 00:37:47,598 --> 00:37:52,019 that's where Maurice told Polanco they're storing the communal gun. 530 00:37:52,937 --> 00:37:56,983 This communal gun is what we suspect would've been the .380. 531 00:38:20,881 --> 00:38:24,844 I never knew that all that was said. That is insane. Yeah. 532 00:38:25,303 --> 00:38:27,762 I don't even know how to respond to that. 533 00:38:27,763 --> 00:38:31,141 But, I mean, you know, we said the guy, 534 00:38:31,142 --> 00:38:34,019 Mace, who lived in North Cross Apartments with his mom, I mean, 535 00:38:34,020 --> 00:38:36,021 he's got to be talking about me. 536 00:38:36,022 --> 00:38:38,482 Yes, I would have been in this apartment, but on the other side. 537 00:38:39,233 --> 00:38:40,483 This exactly? 538 00:38:40,484 --> 00:38:43,778 I don't know that anybody else lived in North Cross Apartments 539 00:38:43,779 --> 00:38:46,741 with their mom that was me, you know, 540 00:38:47,783 --> 00:38:48,951 "skinhead," whatever. 541 00:38:49,785 --> 00:38:51,745 I never thought I'd be back here again. This is... 542 00:38:51,746 --> 00:38:54,915 Yeah, I feel like my childhood's coming to haunt me. 543 00:39:01,088 --> 00:39:02,840 I feel like this was the spot. 544 00:39:03,716 --> 00:39:07,302 Yeah, the yogurt shop's what, a two-minute walk right over there? 545 00:39:07,303 --> 00:39:11,807 What is it, a couple thousand yards? I mean, really, really close. 546 00:39:12,350 --> 00:39:15,769 The mall is just on the other side of these apartments, pretty much. 547 00:39:15,770 --> 00:39:17,479 But I feel like there's been a lot of erosion. 548 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:18,564 I think it was... 549 00:39:19,106 --> 00:39:21,900 I think we would have just been down here to hide and drink beer. 550 00:39:21,901 --> 00:39:23,194 - Yeah. - That's it. 551 00:39:26,113 --> 00:39:28,448 - That is complete horseshit. - I've been asked about that. 552 00:39:28,449 --> 00:39:30,743 That is so ludicrous. 553 00:39:31,243 --> 00:39:34,371 And they also asked me for a current DNA sample 554 00:39:34,372 --> 00:39:37,123 'cause I think they said they lost the original one, so... 555 00:39:37,124 --> 00:39:40,168 So number one, we didn't have money, right? 556 00:39:40,169 --> 00:39:43,797 So, if we had the money to purchase said gun, 557 00:39:43,798 --> 00:39:46,299 we weren't leaving it in the creek. 558 00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:51,430 So, this idea of some shared community gun is absolute absurdity. 559 00:39:53,015 --> 00:39:55,308 I think we had a lot of bravado 560 00:39:55,309 --> 00:39:58,311 and we wanted to be tough and cool, but we weren't. 561 00:39:58,312 --> 00:40:01,940 You know. We weren't evil. We never hurt anybody. 562 00:40:01,941 --> 00:40:04,527 And yeah. 563 00:40:06,737 --> 00:40:09,572 In my experience, people don't want to hear 564 00:40:09,573 --> 00:40:12,575 that there's inherently evil people in the world 565 00:40:12,576 --> 00:40:14,411 and that the vast majority of us 566 00:40:14,412 --> 00:40:18,373 are neither good nor evil, but we'll kind of go whatever way, 567 00:40:18,374 --> 00:40:23,086 which may in part explain what happened up there, right? 568 00:40:23,087 --> 00:40:26,090 Somebody was evil and somebody went along. 569 00:40:26,757 --> 00:40:28,591 I think the part I struggle with is how did 570 00:40:28,592 --> 00:40:32,846 that person who went along never, ever spill the beans, right? 571 00:40:32,847 --> 00:40:35,140 How did they never, ever come clean? 572 00:40:35,141 --> 00:40:37,809 Because yeah, somebody was evil, 573 00:40:37,810 --> 00:40:41,147 but I tend to believe people will kind of go whatever way. 574 00:40:42,982 --> 00:40:45,192 I don't ever want to be one of those people. 575 00:40:54,994 --> 00:40:57,538 Everyone, I think a really nice, good circle all the way around. 576 00:40:58,372 --> 00:41:00,082 Everybody join hands, please. 577 00:41:01,292 --> 00:41:03,961 We thank you, man up above. 578 00:41:05,379 --> 00:41:07,755 We are so grateful you've brought us here. 579 00:41:07,756 --> 00:41:10,049 We ask that you keep everybody here healthy 580 00:41:10,050 --> 00:41:12,802 and that today we find some peace and closure. 581 00:41:12,803 --> 00:41:15,346 - In Jesus's name, amen. - Amen. 582 00:41:15,347 --> 00:41:17,932 Let's pull this away because the capsule, I could tell, is there 583 00:41:17,933 --> 00:41:19,101 because look, watch. 584 00:41:19,810 --> 00:41:21,436 - Oh yeah. - So, it's there. 585 00:41:21,437 --> 00:41:24,565 So, let's move this over there. Be careful. 586 00:41:25,649 --> 00:41:27,735 We'll put it back where it was. 587 00:41:29,445 --> 00:41:33,324 - Was it concrete or was it a box? - I can't remember. 588 00:41:34,158 --> 00:41:35,618 I remember them doing it. 589 00:41:36,118 --> 00:41:38,204 There's something there. I don't know what it is. 590 00:41:43,334 --> 00:41:44,960 I don't know if that's it or not. 591 00:41:47,129 --> 00:41:49,881 - You don't remember? - I don't remember. 592 00:41:49,882 --> 00:41:52,843 - That year was a whole fog. - Yeah. 593 00:42:02,228 --> 00:42:03,229 Yeah. 594 00:42:04,855 --> 00:42:05,856 I don't know. 595 00:42:14,532 --> 00:42:17,450 With all these roots here, I don't think it's going to be here. 596 00:42:17,451 --> 00:42:20,412 I don't either. Maybe it's over here. 597 00:42:21,622 --> 00:42:23,623 - I wonder if it's under here. - Doesn't make any sense... 598 00:42:23,624 --> 00:42:26,584 Yes, she thinks it was off to the side of the courtyard. 599 00:42:26,585 --> 00:42:29,546 And even the parents are not very sure, 600 00:42:29,547 --> 00:42:32,091 so do you think you know? Can you help me? 601 00:42:48,482 --> 00:42:50,067 "Best buds always," yeah. 602 00:42:50,776 --> 00:42:55,614 Amy Ayres, 2/21/92, Mr. Sun's yearbook sponsor. 603 00:42:57,032 --> 00:42:58,117 Here we go. 604 00:42:58,284 --> 00:43:01,412 - There we go. Damn! - Watch out. 605 00:43:06,458 --> 00:43:08,002 - Oh man. What a mess. - Newspaper. 606 00:43:12,047 --> 00:43:14,465 Something's in a plastic bag in there. 607 00:43:14,466 --> 00:43:16,844 Bring that trash can over here and we... 608 00:43:18,387 --> 00:43:20,973 The ribbons? That's off the tree. 609 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,516 - Oh, wow. - That's what those are. 610 00:43:23,517 --> 00:43:27,062 The ribbons off the tree when they planted it. Uh-huh. 611 00:43:27,980 --> 00:43:28,980 I do see some names there. 612 00:43:28,981 --> 00:43:30,898 Yeah, they tied them on there when they planted it. 613 00:43:30,899 --> 00:43:33,401 - We will not forget. - Right. 614 00:43:33,402 --> 00:43:35,279 This was the box. 615 00:43:35,779 --> 00:43:38,782 I think it's nice for them to know that they weren't alone in all of it, 616 00:43:39,408 --> 00:43:41,201 even if they felt that they were. 617 00:43:41,952 --> 00:43:45,371 'Cause it's obvious that a lot of people really loved her 618 00:43:45,372 --> 00:43:47,416 and thought of her a lot. 619 00:43:50,002 --> 00:43:51,002 That's her. 620 00:43:51,003 --> 00:43:54,173 Because one time when we were at elementary school, 621 00:43:54,757 --> 00:43:56,257 I don't know if she ever... 622 00:43:56,258 --> 00:43:59,136 If it dries out, you can tell more about it. 623 00:44:02,723 --> 00:44:04,515 I remember not knowing pieces of it, 624 00:44:04,516 --> 00:44:06,769 but I feel like I've always known about it. 625 00:44:07,978 --> 00:44:11,939 At my grandparents' house, they have a pillow and it has her on it. 626 00:44:11,940 --> 00:44:14,025 And I'd always wonder who she was. 627 00:44:14,026 --> 00:44:17,236 And then they have a whole hallway, and the whole hallway 628 00:44:17,237 --> 00:44:20,240 has a bunch of different things with her on it. 629 00:44:21,909 --> 00:44:23,910 I don't know, you see how it affects them. 630 00:44:23,911 --> 00:44:26,163 Dad doesn't really talk about it a lot. 631 00:44:26,914 --> 00:44:30,042 It's usually Mom yelling at people about it, but... 632 00:44:32,419 --> 00:44:35,088 I don't know, you kind of wonder how they'd be, 633 00:44:35,089 --> 00:44:37,549 how he'd be, if it hadn't happened. 634 00:44:52,106 --> 00:44:55,734 Well, another chapter closed. 635 00:45:05,494 --> 00:45:09,372 There's so many ways the loss of my sister, 30 years later, 636 00:45:09,373 --> 00:45:11,625 shows up in my adult life. 637 00:45:12,334 --> 00:45:15,462 My name is Sonora, and I'm a therapist. 638 00:45:15,587 --> 00:45:17,756 I'm in private practice in Massachusetts. 639 00:45:19,007 --> 00:45:21,300 One thing that really drew me to this kind of work 640 00:45:21,301 --> 00:45:24,595 is that I've spent so much of my life trying to heal. 641 00:45:24,596 --> 00:45:28,182 In the very beginning when you lost your child, 642 00:45:28,183 --> 00:45:30,476 I want to look at a little bit 643 00:45:30,477 --> 00:45:34,272 about what that initial experience was like for you. 644 00:45:34,273 --> 00:45:37,692 I think there's benefit to telling the story 645 00:45:37,693 --> 00:45:40,153 in different settings, in different ways. 646 00:45:40,154 --> 00:45:43,364 I wanted to give you a chance to write a letter to your child. 647 00:45:43,365 --> 00:45:46,075 It could be what's happening in your life in this moment. 648 00:45:46,076 --> 00:45:49,997 But I don't think the trauma ever loses its potency. 649 00:45:51,081 --> 00:45:53,791 Like when you ask me, "Can I remember the yogurt shop?" 650 00:45:53,792 --> 00:45:56,378 Like, I can feel my body changing 651 00:45:57,129 --> 00:45:59,506 when I have that memory, you know? 652 00:46:02,968 --> 00:46:07,473 And so... I don't-- You know, that may never change. 653 00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:13,019 Well, it's 31 years and we're still talking about this stuff, 654 00:46:13,020 --> 00:46:14,646 and I try not to. 655 00:46:15,272 --> 00:46:16,606 Quite frankly, I probably wouldn't have 656 00:46:16,607 --> 00:46:18,566 - if I weren't talking to you. - Right. 657 00:46:18,567 --> 00:46:20,611 But I needed that connection with you. 658 00:46:22,279 --> 00:46:24,239 Yesterday, we were talking about 659 00:46:24,364 --> 00:46:27,408 living through this experience, you begin to know 660 00:46:27,409 --> 00:46:29,911 things that other people don't know. 661 00:46:29,912 --> 00:46:32,789 And I don't think it works that way for everybody. 662 00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:33,873 No. 663 00:46:33,874 --> 00:46:36,709 Because some people 664 00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:40,379 that I know in my family became more cynical. 665 00:46:40,380 --> 00:46:41,964 I can't quite find the words for it, 666 00:46:41,965 --> 00:46:44,634 and I've been trying to find the words for myself too, 667 00:46:44,635 --> 00:46:49,932 like, why these tragic experiences opened me up to love people more. 668 00:46:50,599 --> 00:46:53,017 Because it could do the opposite. 669 00:46:53,018 --> 00:46:54,770 By the way, they both happen. 670 00:46:55,562 --> 00:46:57,021 Yeah, tell me about that. 671 00:46:57,022 --> 00:46:59,023 - Both of those things happen. - Yeah. 672 00:46:59,024 --> 00:47:02,735 You do get really bitchy and cynical about stuff, 673 00:47:02,736 --> 00:47:06,031 but then you also, you feel like you're on the other side. 674 00:47:06,532 --> 00:47:08,366 You got closer to the love. 675 00:47:08,367 --> 00:47:14,122 It's amazing the tools that we have to use to heal ourselves, and we rarely use them. 676 00:47:14,665 --> 00:47:19,001 We get so close to the pain that it's more comfortable to be there 677 00:47:19,002 --> 00:47:23,173 than it is to go to the light, to where the freedom is. 678 00:47:23,298 --> 00:47:26,217 Yeah, I hear that a lot in the trauma groups that I work with. 679 00:47:26,218 --> 00:47:27,802 "I don't like this, 680 00:47:27,803 --> 00:47:30,847 but I'm afraid I don't know what else there is. 681 00:47:30,848 --> 00:47:33,558 And this is something that I know. I know how to do this. 682 00:47:33,559 --> 00:47:35,101 I know how to hold on to this pain. 683 00:47:35,102 --> 00:47:36,727 I know how to live with this pain." 684 00:47:36,728 --> 00:47:38,729 I have this saying that when I die 685 00:47:38,730 --> 00:47:42,860 I hope I'm brave and that I can jump into it. 686 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:49,115 I want the freedom to fall into that next thing, whatever that is. 687 00:47:49,116 --> 00:47:51,951 - Right, to let go of the fear. - Let go of the fear. 688 00:47:51,952 --> 00:47:56,540 I think one of the hard things, and I'm realizing 30 years later, 689 00:47:57,207 --> 00:47:59,166 is figuring out how to live your life 690 00:47:59,167 --> 00:48:02,254 and live the life you want to live after all this. 691 00:48:03,005 --> 00:48:05,131 You know, not that you shouldn't care, 692 00:48:05,132 --> 00:48:08,467 not that you shouldn't, whatever, but you know you gotta 693 00:48:08,468 --> 00:48:11,889 figure out what you love to do and what you want to do. 694 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:14,641 Right. 695 00:48:16,184 --> 00:48:17,311 Yeah. 696 00:48:20,105 --> 00:48:21,815 And it's really hard. 697 00:48:24,693 --> 00:48:27,696 But I think it's very important. I mean, I went back to school 698 00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:29,364 ten years on. 699 00:48:30,657 --> 00:48:32,826 Went into engineering, which I love. 700 00:48:33,994 --> 00:48:35,912 And I think the hard part 701 00:48:35,913 --> 00:48:39,165 with homicide is you get tied into the whole investigation. 702 00:48:39,166 --> 00:48:40,249 Right. 703 00:48:40,250 --> 00:48:43,377 And is it good? Is it bad? Did somebody screw up? Blah, blah, blah. 704 00:48:43,378 --> 00:48:46,464 You know, it wasn't until I went to an actual 705 00:48:46,465 --> 00:48:50,384 focused grief group that I really liberated myself. 706 00:48:50,385 --> 00:48:52,428 And I was invited because my dad had died that year. 707 00:48:52,429 --> 00:48:55,264 And it's like, well, that was pretty trivial. 708 00:48:55,265 --> 00:48:57,642 I hate to say it. He was 85. He'd been sick for a long time. 709 00:48:57,643 --> 00:49:01,021 I spent the whole grief group talking about Eliza. 710 00:49:04,316 --> 00:49:07,903 And that was very liberating, to actually focus on the grief. 711 00:49:08,445 --> 00:49:11,489 And I think you deny that in the homicide stuff. 712 00:49:11,490 --> 00:49:13,659 - Right. - Which is all necessary. 713 00:49:14,242 --> 00:49:17,119 - But it's not necessary for us to do it. - Not necessary for me to do it. 714 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:18,205 - Yeah. - Right. 715 00:49:19,164 --> 00:49:20,623 I agree with that so much 716 00:49:20,624 --> 00:49:22,875 because we thought we were doing the right thing 717 00:49:22,876 --> 00:49:24,961 to be in public with this 718 00:49:24,962 --> 00:49:27,171 because we needed to keep it out in the public 719 00:49:27,172 --> 00:49:28,714 so that we would still have the support 720 00:49:28,715 --> 00:49:30,758 of the community and they could love us 721 00:49:30,759 --> 00:49:32,260 and help us find these people. 722 00:49:32,928 --> 00:49:36,514 You know, every time anything happened, we had cameras. 723 00:49:36,515 --> 00:49:40,936 And as time goes on, it takes a toll on you. 724 00:49:42,104 --> 00:49:43,521 It's been 31 years. 725 00:49:43,522 --> 00:49:46,733 I would not do it the same way. 726 00:49:48,443 --> 00:49:49,735 I would retreat 727 00:49:49,736 --> 00:49:53,031 and go far away and have some quiet time with God. 728 00:49:55,534 --> 00:49:57,535 But the thing that we have to be careful about, 729 00:49:57,536 --> 00:49:59,496 because ours has been so public, 730 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,041 most people don't have the support of the community. 731 00:50:03,542 --> 00:50:07,086 Their brother gets killed and no one ever speaks to them about it. 732 00:50:07,087 --> 00:50:08,380 They don't use his name anymore. 733 00:50:09,881 --> 00:50:13,468 You need that love. You need to be held when you're suffering. 734 00:50:14,469 --> 00:50:16,722 That was the double-edged sword of the public. 735 00:50:18,056 --> 00:50:22,143 We got a lot of attention early because it was hot news. 736 00:50:22,144 --> 00:50:23,853 Four white girls got killed. 737 00:50:23,854 --> 00:50:27,732 And the case, well, we don't know about the case. 738 00:50:27,733 --> 00:50:28,941 What do we know about the case? 739 00:50:28,942 --> 00:50:32,154 Whatever they tell us, we take it for face value. 740 00:50:32,988 --> 00:50:34,530 Because it's... 741 00:50:34,531 --> 00:50:37,074 Yeah, I would have taken a step back a little bit more, 742 00:50:37,075 --> 00:50:41,705 I think, but I felt such an obligation to carry this thing out. 743 00:50:47,002 --> 00:50:48,003 Okay. 744 00:50:48,170 --> 00:50:49,211 - These two? - Just us two. 745 00:50:49,212 --> 00:50:51,590 - Actually, no, y'all two. - She needs a wide lens from just us. 746 00:50:54,301 --> 00:50:55,844 Wasn't he sweet? He's so good. 747 00:50:56,887 --> 00:50:58,554 I knew I was better if I did it. 748 00:50:58,555 --> 00:51:01,515 Yeah, and when he wants to share what his experience is-- 749 00:51:01,516 --> 00:51:03,351 - And he did. - But he's scared, yeah. 750 00:51:03,894 --> 00:51:08,273 - I was glad. It made me feel good. - Yeah, I know. I'm so glad. Yeah. 751 00:51:20,786 --> 00:51:21,787 I just... 752 00:51:28,043 --> 00:51:29,795 Just put all this away for a while. 753 00:51:30,337 --> 00:51:34,174 It's been a tough couple of days just to get going through all this again. 754 00:51:34,758 --> 00:51:37,302 But I love you and I appreciate the opportunity to do it. 755 00:51:37,803 --> 00:51:40,388 You have given me a huge gift. 756 00:51:41,389 --> 00:51:44,767 By talking to me the last few days, I cannot thank you enough. 757 00:51:44,768 --> 00:51:47,270 I learned so much from you. 758 00:51:50,482 --> 00:51:53,359 - I hope all this helps somebody. - It helps me. 759 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,195 - That's the only person I care about. - Yeah, it helps me a lot. 760 00:51:56,196 --> 00:51:59,574 I'm just so grateful that you're sharing your experience with me. 761 00:52:00,325 --> 00:52:02,535 I don't have my mom to talk to, but I can talk to you. 762 00:52:02,536 --> 00:52:06,872 Well, one crazy-ass old lady to the next one. 763 00:52:06,873 --> 00:52:09,625 - It should blend really well. - Right? Yeah, exactly. 764 00:52:09,626 --> 00:52:11,210 It should be the same person. 765 00:52:11,211 --> 00:52:12,337 Right. 766 00:52:13,088 --> 00:52:16,508 - All right. Are y'all done with this? - Did you get the wide shot? 767 00:52:29,020 --> 00:52:30,605 All right, we're here. 768 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:39,406 It's just hard to see. 769 00:52:46,788 --> 00:52:48,873 The pictures on the wall, these are some of the cases 770 00:52:48,874 --> 00:52:50,624 that we've solved over the years. 771 00:52:50,625 --> 00:52:53,002 How old were some of the cases? Very old? 772 00:52:53,003 --> 00:52:56,715 Yeah, most of them are from the '80s and '90s. 773 00:53:00,051 --> 00:53:02,261 I'm sure you've heard the same different kind of spiel 774 00:53:02,262 --> 00:53:05,222 from every detective for the last 30 years about "we're working hard," you know, 775 00:53:05,223 --> 00:53:07,767 "we're working on it," and I'm just the newest guy, 776 00:53:08,476 --> 00:53:13,440 but I want you to know that I'm throwing everything I can at this. 777 00:53:14,274 --> 00:53:19,738 The DNA is really the crux of where we're going with it. 778 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,366 We're continuing to reevaluate every piece of evidence 779 00:53:24,868 --> 00:53:26,620 because what may have been 780 00:53:28,163 --> 00:53:32,333 untestable a few years ago because of what it's made of, 781 00:53:32,334 --> 00:53:33,667 or its condition, or whatever, 782 00:53:33,668 --> 00:53:36,337 may or may not be something we can do now. 783 00:53:36,338 --> 00:53:37,797 We've got a finite amount. 784 00:53:38,965 --> 00:53:41,258 It's my decision as the lead detective, but I'm not making it alone. 785 00:53:41,259 --> 00:53:43,720 I'm bringing in people way smarter than me when it comes to DNA. 786 00:53:44,346 --> 00:53:47,932 Some of the experts across the country that provide advice to make sure 787 00:53:47,933 --> 00:53:49,976 that when we move forward 788 00:53:50,602 --> 00:53:52,604 with trying to test something or trying 789 00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:55,856 to use some DNA up, that we're at the best odds. 790 00:53:55,857 --> 00:53:58,526 And if we don't have great odds, then we'll just hold on for a little bit. 791 00:53:59,194 --> 00:54:00,527 If there's any questions you have for me, 792 00:54:00,528 --> 00:54:03,531 of course, I'll be happy to answer them best I can. 793 00:54:04,199 --> 00:54:06,493 It's nice to get some... 794 00:54:08,370 --> 00:54:09,537 some info. 795 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:11,497 We've said this over the years 796 00:54:11,498 --> 00:54:13,541 is that it was always nice to have fresh eyes on it. 797 00:54:14,042 --> 00:54:17,629 We can communicate as family members and police department 798 00:54:17,837 --> 00:54:20,632 and hopefully solve this at the end of the day. 799 00:54:22,592 --> 00:54:23,718 I'm very hopeful. 800 00:54:24,219 --> 00:54:27,221 I am confident that technology is moving at a pace 801 00:54:27,222 --> 00:54:31,183 that we will be at a point where we can take a sample to a lab, 802 00:54:31,184 --> 00:54:33,311 items that were unable to be tested before, 803 00:54:33,812 --> 00:54:37,649 with a realistic expectation of developing a profile sooner than later. 804 00:54:39,025 --> 00:54:43,446 We are going to solve this case someday. I want the public to know that. 805 00:55:00,046 --> 00:55:02,214 You'll have your own pain and your own way and your own time. 806 00:55:02,215 --> 00:55:04,634 You don't need to visit this one. 807 00:55:06,136 --> 00:55:08,387 At a certain point, the project ends 808 00:55:08,388 --> 00:55:11,057 and, hopefully, the film is finished and you let go. 809 00:55:11,599 --> 00:55:14,769 This was a different kind of thing because I didn't finish. 810 00:55:16,021 --> 00:55:17,646 It was really complicated. 811 00:55:17,647 --> 00:55:21,150 I couldn't see all the angles, all of the storylines, 812 00:55:21,151 --> 00:55:22,444 all of the people. 813 00:55:22,944 --> 00:55:25,822 So, the basic feeling was a feeling of failure. 814 00:55:27,574 --> 00:55:30,617 And the larger feeling was just that I had let people down. 815 00:55:30,618 --> 00:55:32,287 I felt like I had let people down, 816 00:55:32,871 --> 00:55:34,581 you know, who gave me a lot of trust. 817 00:55:36,916 --> 00:55:40,462 But I knew that it was worth preserving. 818 00:55:40,587 --> 00:55:45,215 And I'm glad that this footage is finding a home 819 00:55:45,216 --> 00:55:46,342 that feels like a way 820 00:55:46,343 --> 00:55:49,429 of honoring the folks that let me film them. 821 00:55:57,395 --> 00:55:58,896 As the years go on, 822 00:55:58,897 --> 00:56:03,401 it's still sitting out there unsolved. 823 00:56:07,364 --> 00:56:10,700 I used to hide every December 6th. 824 00:56:11,493 --> 00:56:14,704 Couldn't find me. I'd take off work, 825 00:56:15,413 --> 00:56:19,166 even when I was still at PD, and I did when I was at Metro. 826 00:56:19,167 --> 00:56:20,960 December 6th, you couldn't find me. 827 00:56:21,711 --> 00:56:26,383 And I was off in a corner by myself. 828 00:56:27,467 --> 00:56:30,470 It's my version, I guess, of a day that will live in infamy. 829 00:56:31,388 --> 00:56:35,557 Yeah, I mean, and it'll probably be that way as long 830 00:56:35,558 --> 00:56:37,769 as it's still unsolved. 831 00:56:46,569 --> 00:56:49,571 Sometimes, I think I have a memory, but it's a photograph, 832 00:56:49,572 --> 00:56:51,740 and it's a photograph that I've seen many times, 833 00:56:51,741 --> 00:56:54,577 and I sort of create a story around it. 834 00:56:56,955 --> 00:56:59,958 I don't think it matters whether the memory's accurate or not, 835 00:57:00,166 --> 00:57:01,918 because it's your memory. 836 00:57:05,964 --> 00:57:09,299 So, you’re asking, how do we deal with traumatic memories 837 00:57:09,300 --> 00:57:11,803 and change them or heal them, right? 838 00:57:16,558 --> 00:57:19,184 So, yeah, there is like this big school of thought that says like, 839 00:57:19,185 --> 00:57:21,688 "We just tell the story over and over and over again." 840 00:57:24,023 --> 00:57:25,774 But I think some other things need to happen 841 00:57:25,775 --> 00:57:29,028 in telling that story over and over and over again. 842 00:57:31,531 --> 00:57:35,118 I think we need to have a lot of support in doing that. 843 00:57:36,619 --> 00:57:40,831 And to have the compassion of other human beings around us 844 00:57:40,832 --> 00:57:42,792 as they're witnessing our story. 845 00:57:45,044 --> 00:57:51,550 There's a real benefit for both teller and audience member to telling that story 846 00:57:51,551 --> 00:57:53,219 and to hearing that story. 847 00:57:57,056 --> 00:58:01,519 I think that can change how the memory lives inside of you. 848 00:58:15,825 --> 00:58:17,869 Look, there's Eliza!